What determines how far up from the butt you place your reel seat? I believe I have a basic understanding but I would like to check some of those assumptions. I suspect the short answer is its determined by how it'll be used. Like a rod intended for one handed casting likely has the seat closer to the butt. A rod intended to spend a lot of time in a holder probably has a seat further up. Surf rods tend to have a much higher seat. My suspicion is that it's so one can have their hands further apart while 2 handed casting so more leverage can be applied, but folks like Jeri would put the reel seat further down and remind us (forgive me for putting words in your mouth correct me if I'm wrong) that one does not need to be holding the reel to cast if you're holding the line, so one's hands can still be further apart. And don't get me started on bent butt rods and "stand up" rods, etc.
Am I missing anything? Are there minimums or maximums to consider? What other factors influence this placement? How would one define 'bad' placement?
For reference to why I ask, I'm about to build an ultralight spinning rig and I figure since it'll mostly be casting one handed and won't likely be using a rod holder much I'd wanna put the reel seat pretty low, which also lets me maximize my utilization of the length of the rod (a 10' rod with the reel seat half way up is functionally a 5' rod with a big handle?) But not so low that 2 handed casting isn't an option at all.
So many questions swirling around in my head before this first build.
It's all a personal preference. You're going custom to get what you want/need.
Especially for an ultralight, I would think whatever feels right would be best. Get some masking tape and position a typical reel on different locations to see what seems more ballanced. If you eliminate the long handle requirement for two handed distance casting, then the other main goal is balance.
For ultralight, this old split grip Lew's spinning rod had the reel about 6" from the butt of the rod. It feels surprisingly natural.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/274679004626
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/PRsAAOSw7ztgJCOX/s-l500.jpg)
Here is something on this topic:-
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=32142.0
Boy, you have a knack for opening a can of worms: on a one handed spinning rod alone, you have to discern whether you will use slip rings (like Tommy), weight of reel for balance (Quicks and Penns will double plastic fantastic), and whether, if you use a regular seat, will it be up- or downlocking. That can move you a couple inches either way. I prefer downlocking whenever possible, as riding around, it's less likely to vibrate itself loose as the weight of the reel isn't tapping the collar ring down on the threads (think hammer drill, same principle. That said, my rods pound in boats in holders all day.
I'm 5'11, 260 and in general for my casting style and power:
one handed rod: UL, 5"; others 6-7"
two handed: 8-14" depending on length and reel weight i intend to use.
surf: 24"-32", depending on length of rod. For a 12' heavy I'm really going to punch into with 8-n-bait on a conventional reel, 32"
Stand-up offshore: 10-11 inches to reel seet, downlocking.
Trolling: I'll use aluminum butts so you get what you get depending on class for offshore; for something like nearshore I'll either use slick butt as above or something around 12" to bottom of seat. I like them to seat in the holders without inserts.
Jigging offshore: whatever fits under my armpit, prolly about 18-20"
This is my input for rods I build for myself, for my express applications and styles of fishing I do where I do it, for my strength and skill level: NC Freshwater for stripers, cats, bass, walleye, crappie; salt for trout, reds, striper, kings, Spanish, pelagics, bottom fishing. I'll founder fish too, but that's a bass reel with a Carolina rig and a circle hook so I'm covered for about 200 of those without building one. I even have a few fly rods but don't flyfish, it just happens. The point of customizing is for it to do something for you that you can't purchase, for whatever reason. Others will debate every point in here including reel seat orientation; that's fine and I will happily fish your equipment your way on your boat, and hopefully I learn something...I ask a ton of questions on other's rigging, from hook to rod to boat trailer...
This brings an issue that I stand in disagreement with.
Speaking of custom rods my thoughts are, it is in fact not a custom rod if one follows the cookie cutter ideas that off the shelf possess. Things to keep in mind are as follows others will add their thoughts...
1) What will the rod be used for ? This includes distance desired when cast & weight used. Also how hard does the person wish to pull etc. the length of the butt section determines how much leverage can be easily
used when casting & fighting fish
2) How tall is the individual ? A measurement from elbow to palm or to finger tips is a good place to start. I stand in complete disagreement that all rail rods need a 13" butt. Dont wish to move the reel seat forward to
gain length. It robs the rod of needed recoil when placed on the rail.
Take a fella like Mark he's tall, with a long reach. I'll bet he has trouble using most rods under right arm pit if he's right handed. He will be completely hamstrung, uncomfortable using the 13" butt rule for a rail rod.
That a 13" butt is needed for all, on all rail rods is , is complete BS!
3) How will the rod be used ? While cranking fake baits being jigs etc. or fighting fish? People feel comfortable placing the butt of the rod in different places on their body while working baits
or fighting fish. Fact is one can wrap a nice looking rod but it falls short if these simple things aren't the focus... Jeff
Edit: Jeff & Thor posted while I was typing, but here goes anyway.
For me it's balance, that's why I have Tennessee style slip ring grips on all of my rods. The type of fishing I do, mostly freshwater live bait trolling & slip bobbering, usually demands very sensitive feel. By the time you see the line or rod twitch it's too late. I never use a rod holder, we just hold the rod. If I had to use a holder I wouldn't fish, but if you boat fish & use a holder you need enough grip behind the seat to secure the rod. It also helps those that cast heavier lures two handed.
Everything Jeff said is how I arrived at my personal spacing- that they work for me, where I had a shortcoming in an off the shelf rod. Rods I've built for members here, Wally15, Reel fishing problems, Biggiesmallzz, took these same types of things into account.
I have never been partial to slip rings (not sure that i can say why, just that's the way it is) and I have two old slip ring style rods but Tommy made a great point that is totally making me rethink my own light spinner setups - that ability to be able to shift reel location up and down the handle to maintain that comfortable balance is a pretty cool upside. Going from one of my old "built like a tank DAM's" to one of my "latest and greatest all-alloy skirted spools" on my frontline freshwater rigs does result in two entirely different handling setups - using ring clamps would allow that extra adjustment. Always learning... - john
For me, it is 16 inches right now. That is only because if the handle is any longer I will bang it on the side of the canoe and that will scare off the fish.
Surf rods have traditionally had a long handle so they are not so tip-heavy. It is part of the balance that Tommy mentioned. Personally, I would rather add counterweight in the butt than have that long handle stuck in my crotch or armpit.
Gluing the reel seat in the wrong place is a fatal error. You might have to start over. Having some flexibility in reel placement after the rod is built is a definite advantage.
??? How long is the blank ? How long do you want the stick to be ? What kind of reel seat ? Are you going to fight big fish ?
Do you want to counter balance the stick ? How strong are you arm and wrists , can you do a lot of snap cast ? Do you want a adjustable butt ?
You answered your own question. It depends. If you know how you are fishing the rod, you know where you want the reel seat.
Best to think in terms of the distance from butt to reel handle shaft and not the beginning of the reel seat. Seats can be different lengths, and which direction you mount them will make a big difference.
I am not a big believer in one way being generally better than the other in terms of reel seat direction. With a big game outfit, I believe that you want the load to be pulling against the fixed hood. For a conventional casting reel where you have to thumb the spool, having the fixed hood at the bottom means that you are not grabbing the threads. And so on.
A few more thoughts:
If you are building a three or four piece travel rod, esp. if using stiff reel seat arbors, you might have to go with a shorter rear grip than you prefer. Otherwise, you might end up concentrating load at the bottom ferrule when fighting a big fish.
If you know which reels that you are going to use, you might be able to shorten the reel seat.
I lurve Fuji graphite reel seats. Dirt cheap, don't corrode, don't scratch reels, conform to more reel foot shapes, and don't get "hammer drill loose" as easily as many aluminum seats. Fuji makes an optional lock ring, which I like to use whenever I remember to order one. I have taken factory rods apart to get rid of fancy name brand aluminum seats that did a crappy job of holding a favorite reel.
For saltwater conventional casting, my favorite is no seat at all. I realliy like cord wrapped deckand grips. It is sort of the heavy duty, saltwater two handed equivalent of slip rings.
-J
here we go again !! ;D ;D
The simple answer is that you put it where 'you' want it!!!
There are no right and wrong placements, just what is comfortable for you, not someone else. Simple really................ :)
Well I got busy last night. I ended up mounting a bit higher than i originally planned because that's where it felt natural.
Shoulda researched more about shaping cork first though. As most of you already knew, they come with 1/4" center holes, but my rod butt is definitely not 1/4" so I got out the trusty drill. I shaped the outside by wrapping a drill bit in paper and putting it down the center hole and held a piece of sandpaper still. Its kinda rough, but i kinda love it. I may put a bead of black silicone over the top and bottom of the grip so you cant see how rough the center holes are. At least they're roughly centered.
That butt cap is just a placeholder. I had bought a proper butt cap, and lets just say i got my learning out of the way on that, and now I need a new one. No black silicone can save that.
:) You can still still put it on a lathe and finish sand a contort / shape .
Suggestions: Check your diameter of the butt, and get a rubber "crutch tip" style cap from Lowes or HD. I use them all the time. You may caulk if you wish to hold it but I usually put a wrap or two of electrical tape on the blank until I get a snug fit, then it's easily and cheaply replaceable. They're usually over in furniture hardware section.
Once you have your corks glued in place, put the rod on your finishing motor (or use five minute epoxy if you do by hand), and work some epoxy into your voids in the end of the cork, filling the off-center gaps and building a ramp of about a half inch beyond the end of the cork as well (not on butt cap end). When you wrap the rod, wrap trim rings over the ramp- apply thread as you would to the rest of the wrap. If the voids are very large, once the initial epoxy step sets up, you can paint the whole end of the cork with a paint pen (I'd use black), then wrap trim rings as stated. If you do this, you can simply apply rod finish to both the wrap and the painted end of the cork, which will give a glossy black finished appearance.
If you hand drill / ream / rattail file, it's difficult to get a perfect hole, and the trim rings look great even if you turned the holes out on a lathe.
you can get creative on those rough edges, although cork is pretty cheap in order to keep the cost down and learn from mistakes, trust me, I had done a lot an living in Baja is a hassle to order extra parts because I messes a good small cork grip or ordered a reelseat hair bigger than the correct one, so my best bet is to find a way to save it and use it, anyway back on your grips.
what I would do in order to use them is to try to sand the edge but if you think that will keep destroying the rough parts then try to use a new razor blade, the ones for shaving not the ones to cut boxes and cut the rough edges the best you can trying to make a ramp, it will still look bit rough but dont worry that will your starting base for the ramps.
apply some clear glue on those rough edges (pointing inside the split grip) and at the corners where the blank meets the grip and pour some dust color of your color of choice, black, white, red, etc you can find them at any craft store, you can use sparkling dust too, blow the excess and let it dry, next day apply the rod wrapping epoxy to the blank on the split grip and cover the dust color with it, if you feel necessary you can add a bit more dust on those edges while the epoxy is still fresh, the idea is with the dust color is to cover that rough edges and add a unique look on the ramp, Hey, we are here to experiment not to follow the book, right?, then apply another coat or two more of epoxy without the color dust to encapsulate the color with the epoxy and have a smooth ramp.
something like this in this thread, https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=22222.0
I happened to had some white luminescent dust for lure painting and did what I described on one of my own rods, the foregrip didnt have any ramp or winding check to help on the epoxy ramp, it was like the next pic, I actually took out the hook holder and it was almost a straight cut from the grip to the blank.
the luminescent dust hold the "charge" of the light for way too long, I never use the rod at night so it has zero benefit but at least it looks cool at the ramp
You can use cork sawdust too. Mix it into the glue, stuff it into the hole and then put dust on the surface.
You guys remind me why I keep coming back here. Other than wrapping the ends (I considered doing it in gold) I never would have thought of any of those. Thank you.
Being the genius I am, I just brushed off a ton of cork dust that apparently I should have saved. Oh well, i got a new end cap so i suspect I'll generate more cork dust. Or I could just grind up the failed one. Guides are supposed to arrive today.
The cork from an empty bottle of Elijah Craig or Booker's works dandily. Wine, if one must.
I don't use filler on voids in cork. There are two categories of cork filler. The kind that has fallen out and the kind that is about to fall out. If you must indulge, use a flexible adhesive, so that the grip's hard spots are less hard. I HATE cork grips with hard filled voids.
The edges on unfilled voids smooth out with use. Even pretty bad cork is not really annoying to me once broken in, and actually make grip more grippy.
Here is a voidy factory rod grip that has a couple thousand hours in desert and tropical sun. It originally came with all the voids filled. I think there is still a tiny bit of filler left near butt :).
A grip with filler looks like a grip with filler, the voids don't dissapear. But it seems that custom builders usually feel they have to fill the voids to meet expectations.
All cork is pretty crappy nowadays. I blame the bourbon renaissance... ;D
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on February 25, 2021, 10:34:37 PM
... I blame the bourbon renaissance... ;D
-J
I think you may be right... Jeff
Quote from: jurelometer on February 25, 2021, 10:34:37 PM
Here is a voidy factory rod grip that has a couple thousand hours in desert and tropical sun. It originally came with all the voids filled. I think there is still a tiny bit of filler left near butt :).
-J
I gives character to to handle
Yeah I'm no fan of filler in the part of the handle you grip. And I agree that uneven cork is a better grip when its worn in. What I'm talking about is I wanna fix this mess:
Quote from: thorhammer on February 25, 2021, 09:42:27 PM
The cork from an empty bottle of Elijah Craig or Booker's works dandily. Wine, if one must.
Belgian Monk Ale 750ml (Chimay, etc.) -- biggest, fattest corks... and, talk about character ;)
if you like it as much as I do, you'll have enough for a whole handle in no time... maybe never buy cork, again
Champagne w/ same cork quality/size is much more $$$, and you ain't gonna drink a Magnum w/ weekday dinner
also, really like 1/2" burl top trim (bottom, too -- if no cap)
I can endorse Phil's ingenuity! - john
Chimay GR is the bomb :)
also, if you want to keep wine corks intact for crafts, toss the corkscrews & get a two-prong puller:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=two+prong+cork+pullers&form=HDRSC2&first=1&tsc=ImageBasicHover
Those are slick Phil, they are also called an Asp. They take a little bit of practice but once mastered are pretty easy. Advantages as you noted are: A - Leaves the cork relatively unmolested unlike a corkscrew, and B - When you are at that nice restaurant (or at home) you can save a partial bottle for later and reinsert the cork just as easy with a little practice. And no, I DO NOT have a small can of compressed N2 that I carry with me to barrier the bottle before resealing - not my style!
Also a fun side note (okay this stuff is what keeps my days fun), those mushroom corks (called "cork and cage") before they go in the bottle start life the same as a standard wine cork - perfect cylinder.
Now, I've never really messed with rod building, but Jurelometer's remark about the "bourbon renaissance" did give me pause - for rod builders, are there different "grades" of cork that you can use for rod building? In the beverage world, there most certainly are different grades based on the characteristics and qualities (things like density and grain), and I am not totally versed on it but I do know that is also a big driver in the use of so called "synthetic" cork in beverage packaging. I would think that the base quality of cork would also play a big part in it's effectiveness and durability as a rod handle. And yes I like cork handles. - john
There are many grades of cork, for those that require filling to get a smooth surface, right up to near perfectly smooth without any further treatment. Price also reflects the quality of the product, there are some specialist suppliers around that only supply the finest, usually solid rings for custom rod builders, but at a price.
without checking, I believe grip cork goes: ungraded, A, AA, AAA
beware of cheap Asps ;D I've chipped cheap glass, twisting too vigorously
not sure if true, but heard(read?) that Asps used to be illegal in olden France
serfs would drink the Lord's good wine on the sly, then refill w/ whatever & recork