As the season was winding down and I had some free time on my hands, I popped open my workhorse Jigmaster to upgrade the sleeve and dog to SS.
I built this a year or so ago. It has probably 10 one day trips on the water. Warm fresh water rinses at days end religiously. It had the usual Tani treatment, light grease everywhere, carbon fiber drags with Cal's grease, etc.
Imagine my surprise seeing the below. It still turned as smooth (like butter) as the day I assembled it.
The drags are dry as a bone. It caught some nice fish (salmon and cod) and had a blazing fast 30 second couple/few hundred yard run from something big early in the season Dave and I are still mystified over on, it spit the hook. The grease was not Yamaha or Penn, but a high pressure marine wheel bearing grease. Still, I am very surprised here.
I am now thinking only a trip or two before a good lookover. Don't think "it has only been a year and all is well". I thought that too. Get into those reels more often than you think you need to.
PS, does anyone know why it is soo hard to find a pound of Penn grease? Maybe the shanghai shivers has people doing more maintenance than normal, and maybe a slowdown at the factory as well. I might have to go to Alan's and beg for a tube of Yamalube. Check out the price of 2oz on the auction site if you don't believe me. Everything is United Kingdom it looks like and nutz pricing, 2oz only no pounders. I tried Mystic.
Also, what is a good safe degreaser for anodized plates? It looks dry in the gear well, but that was also well greased as were those gears. That is sticky rusty grease. It must have been hotter in there than I would have believed possible. I am not sure I want to start with kerosene, my usual go to for metal. This is my first time with anodized aluminum plates.
Thanks
Rob
Kerosine will be fine as a degreaser in anodized aluminum parts.
I just searched for some other grease as well. All greases are crazy priced at the moment. Maybe production is down everywhere.
I keep forgetting that I need to stock up on my go-to greases as I'm running low.
Happy rebuilding.
Rob, it looks like it's time to switch grease brand. That grease doesn't look like it can handle the job even if the label says marine grease. Penn blue grease is available from Mystic & Yamaha marine blue grease is available at most Yamaha motorcycle, marine, or boat dealers. Rudy
This is why I choose not to use garden hose to rinse off my reels. The salt just gets pushed inside. In this case it looks like the gap around the gear sleeve is where the intrusion happened. I've seen exact same results on other reels that get hosed off after each use. A spray bottle with diluted salt away is what all the local charters use on thier reels
Rob!
Dang, that rust does not look good!!!
My wife would say, that brand of grease is a Pinterist FAIL!!!! Throw out that grease.
Next time in Campbell near San Jose, stop by Central Valley Marine - they sell the Yahama Marine Grease in 14 oz. tubes.
AND post photos of your final clean up project. We will all thank you.
Wayne
Regarding "pushing salt" into the reel with a hose, I don't think that is how the chemistry works. Saltwater dilutes rapidly when in contact with moving fresh water, and even salt crystals will dissolve fairly rapidly. So you end up with highly diluted water, which is not too much of a risk. It is pretty hard to move much salt from the outside of the reel to the inside by turning a hose on it.
Having said that, trying to desalt the inside of a reel with a hose or shower, is not such a great idea IMHO.
To get salt based corrosion, you need a salt, metal, and moisture. A combination of metals that are not close on the galvanic tables (like stainless or carbon steel and aluminum) makes matters worse.
If a little bit of salt gets into the reel and dries out, the corrosion is going to be slower and more localized. Turning the hose on the reel introduces more water, meaning that the innards could retain moisure longer, extending the period of more active corrosion. It could also spread the salt around and make the corrosion less severe, but also less localized.
The first step is to keep internal surfaces fully coated with grease, so that the salt cannot reach it.
In terms of cleaning/rinsing after saltwater use:
1. Water is THE solvent for salt. If you want to get rid of salt, you must add fresh water. The more water, the more diluted the salt. Remove most of the water, and any remaining water holds much less salt. It does not take much fresh water to dilute the salt down to where it is no longer an issue. If you start out with a teaspoon of seawater with 3% salt inside your reel, and you end up with a teaspoon of diluted water with 0.03 %...
IMHO, The worst thing to do is to introduce an extra little shot of water into to reel that stays inside the reel. I agree with Maxed Out on that. The point of putting water into the reel is to use it to carry some salt out. If the added water stays in the reel, you are just increasing moisture.
I am a firm believer in soaking most saltwater reels in a bucket of freshwater, and then thoroughly air drying. But if you are not going to soak and dry, my guess is that you are probably best off trying to keep the innards as dry as possible while rinsing the external surfaces.
2. There is a thread somewhere on salt-away and similar products. Could not find much on how these products actually work, but here is what I could find: I don't think that these products do anything for salt solubility. The benefit comes from increased surface tension that allows the water to cling longer to vertical surfaces, allowing the water to do its job. You mix the stuff with water, and the water dilutes the salt, and carries it out, just like normal. The other benefit from these products is the residue left behind that acts as a protective coating that helps prevent corrosion. An external wipedown with salt-away on an aluminum reel may not be a bad idea.
Using a desalting product probably doesn't have much effect on the amount of freshwater that you need to pass through the inside of the reel to get out the same amount of salt.
I don't personally use the custom aluminum sideplates on Penn reels any more due to the extra maintenance required to prevent corrosion. These reels do not drain well (not the fault of the sideplate makers), and there are a lot of mixed metals involved. I would still try soaking, but not sure if it is the best answer. Either way, maybe back off the drag all the way and store with the handle shaft hole pointing down?
-J.
This is my procedure, Rob --
Most of us who have done reel maintenance for a while -- for ourselves or others -- will likely agree that WD-40 is a poor lubricant for long term protection -- compared to Penn, Cal's, or Yamaha Marine grease.
But, WD-40 is an excellent cleaner and puts a fine protective surface film on our reels.
However, the most important aspect is what WD-40 stands for -- and what it does -- it displaces water.
″Water Displacement, 40th formula"
It was developed for the fledgling Aerospace program in the 50's -- as a water displacer, cleaner, and protective lubricant for primarily the Atlas booster rockets as they set on the launchpads for varying weeks prior to launch.
This was the 40th attempt by the small company to come up with a successful formula.
First, I use a liberal amount of Marine grease on the insides to include gears, jacks, yokes, bearings, springs, inner sides of the spools and rings, as well as under the rings, and all screws.
Second, after fishing, just let water run gently over the reel with NO PRESSURE so as to not force salt into the casing.
Third, wipe down the reel with a towel.
Fourth, spray the exterior of the reel with WD-40 -- and the interior, as possible, using the straw spray attachment into any cracks or openings. Lightly wipe down the reel exterior.
That's it.
This will clean and protect the reel during the season -- until it is time for an annual service.
Simple and effective.
Best,
Fred
Thanks for all of the comments.
The fresh water rinse is in the shower, more of a light hot rain over the rod and reel with no pressure. It has taken the usual saltwater bath when running back to port from bow spray quite a few times, I think that was basically the cause of my troubles.
I am looking to score a pound of the Penn grease. Grease is messy enough in a tub, tubes are even worse I'd imagine when not just popping them into a gun.
Mystic is out of stock on it though.. https://www.mysticparts.com/LubesCleaners/Penn/1LBGSE.aspx (https://www.mysticparts.com/LubesCleaners/Penn/1LBGSE.aspx) It sounds like they may have been out for a month, or more, based on an email check with Maureen. She can't get any from Penn and no date for more.
I placed an order with Penn directly, we will see if that actually ships. My card was authorized I am sure as a default for any order, time will tell if they have it.
I am going to play it by ear. I am ordering Bryan's drag kit from Mystic so this isn't going back together right away. Things cleaned up fairly nicely. The plate still needs a bit more work, until I have more parts I didn't want to tinker with the eccentric so it hasn't had a kerosene soak, just a bit of toothbrush scrubbing. That eared washer has a strange look to it (and the ears are ever so slightly bent) and since the undergear Delrin washer I used doesn't look good, I am OK with waiting for the kit and will change over to a carbon fiber UG washer that is included. I am going to stay with the steel gears for now, maybe I'll splurge for the SS set later.
Does anyone know the part number for that Jesus clip holding the dog onto the bridge pin? It isn't on the schematic. I am pretty sure this is a USA Jiggy for all intents and purposes as I have had the guts since way before they were made in China, unless I am mixed up. The Lord knows I have bought lots of reels and many on eBay so anything is possible. Since we know what can happen to dog springs I want a spare of that as well.
Thanks
Rob
I don't remember a clip holding the dog. Someone must have rigged something up. Dominick
That is just a standard "E" clip.
You can buy just one in SS at the hardware store.
Or you can buy a few hundred assorted for just a few bucks on Amazon or from Harbor Freight.
Really nice clean up job!
Best, Fred
Quote from: Dominick on September 20, 2020, 11:38:08 PM
I don't remember a clip holding the dog. Someone must have rigged something up. Dominick
I am not sure what the story is exactly. I think this was a 500S, but it is still not on the schematic. Mike posted a pic of that setup previously as well. I didn't use the red spool but have it and the plates.
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=27627.0 (https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=27627.0)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4884/33132123648_e0ae4021bb_b.jpg)
Another pic from another thread. https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=8747.0 (https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=8747.0)
Lots of great tips here. I was the advocate for "sallt away" with a light hosing using the mixing unit. I never had internal corrosion from this method. It does leave a film (you can't feel or see) on and inside the reel so the salt won't get to your metals. A boeshiled wipe down with a rag soaked in it left in a ziploc, as Dominick has taught us and put her away.
The Salt Away is great to keep your line supple as well.
Best,
Dom
PM me...I will look around as I may have a lb. of Penn grease I would sell you for what I paid for it (pre-pandemic)
Wow that cleaned up nice! How were you able to get the brass drag washers so nice?
Quote from: sabaman1 on September 21, 2020, 05:12:41 AM
Wow that cleaned up nice! How were you able to get the brass drag washers so nice?
All of the internal metals just sat in a tuna tin of kerosene over night. A light scrub with a toothbrush is all the gears took, those washers didn't need any scrubbing.
if you have moly steel main, those for sure are pre-China: the S as a whole was made early 70's and IMO has best internals of the 500 reels (steel main, chrome plated bits, etc.). I think a DD bridge and SS sleeve as upgrades before I buy a SS main- I've never had an issue with stock steel mains even in my Cortez builds, and the frame probably becomes weak link after the sleeve.
A lot of good advice here but I would like to embellish a little based on my personal experience (your mileage may vary).
Many decades ago my brother would 'take care' of the rods and reels while my dad and I cleaned the boat. He was removing all the reels and soaking them in a five gallon bucket of fresh water while he sprayed down the rods. We thought this good practice but when we did seasonal maintenance we were finding too much internal corrosion. We were running drags dry back in those days. If you choose to soak; be absolutely certain to crank down the drags good and tight. This will keep water out of the stack. Just be certain to loosen the drags before storage but not before the reels are completely dry inside. You can get away with soaking a stock jigmaster with bushing but if you're running oiled bearings I would not soak at all. A low-pressure rinse will suffice but don't skip you regular seasonal maintenance.
Fred is giving good advice with the WD-40. One of my Shimano manuals advises wiping down all exterior surfaces after a rinse and dry but before storing. WD-40 has always been controversial but as Fred stated is excellent when used as intended. WD-40 is also an excellent solvent for cleaning grease and gunk while doing your seasonal maintenance. WD-40 is believed to do no harm to mono line but I don't know how it would affect braid.
-Mike
Dom, thanks for the note on some tubes of grease. Go ahead and just hang on to them, Penn apparently has at least one pound in stock they are shipping to me, I received a tracking number. ;D
Rob
All this discussion and all that really happened was some grease got funky, which is the reason we all use it. No damage anywhere.
And that is definitely a 500 S bridge. The only bridge with a captured dog.
I think if we keep up with even semi-regular maintenance per Doc Tani, we will be good.
I along with several people on this site take our tackle into the shower after a fishing trip. I give them a warm rinse and put them on the side to drain and dry. I then give them a wipe with a reel-x soaked rag. During break down servicing I have not come across the rubiginous mess that is shown in the photo. Dominick
Aiala, what the hell did Dommie just say???
Quote from: Rancanfish on September 21, 2020, 08:47:40 PM
All this discussion and all that really happened was some grease got funky, which is the reason we all use it. No damage anywhere.
And that is definitely a 500 S bridge. The only bridge with a captured dog.
I think if we keep up with even semi-regular maintenance per Doc Tani, we will be good.
It is a discussion board for all of us to learn from. Thanks for the help with this being a unique bridge and dog assembly.
I learned a few things;
Alan was right, and has always been right. Use SOMETHING!, anything, versus nothing.
Steel gears need more maintenance than stainless or bronze.
Not all grease is the same, but most all of it saves your bacon just the same. Let the grease go bad instead of your parts.
A more regular reel service is not a bad thing.
This Jiggy has no part number for what seems to be a factory part, and is not on any schematic I have seen. Nor has Mystic.
And to wrap-up, I am still not sure if red Yamaha marine grease is just their regular grease mislabeled as marine, or if in fact the dye changed color. Don't ask me how I have any doubts or why I posted that..
Rob ;)
No no, Rob. I was making a statement of the obvious really. But discussion makes this site rock and roll. I just used words we can pronounce. ;D
Everything you add is a plus.
Whatever happened nice recovery with the clean up.
Tight lines, Brendan.
Sweet. This is going back together sooner than I had thought. Kudos to Maureen at Mystic and Penn Fishing as well! The Penn box had an "expedite" sticker on it.. ;D I ordered the grease Sunday night from Penn and the drag kit and reel cleaner from Mystic on Monday, like 5pm their time.
What really sucks is that I have another dozen+ reels to go through afterwards to get rid of that worthless grease I used in them. ::)
I see in the photo that you have a cupped washer to put on the top of the drag stack. Don't use that, instead use a smaller wavy washer in it's place. The cupped washer is to stiff & with Bryan's 5+1 drag stack it will ramp up to quick. Usually 1/2 turn from no drag to full drag. The smaller wavy washer will give a more gradual ramp up. Rudy
Copy that Rudy, thanks. It comes with the kit so I had planned to use it. I will probably tinker with them both and see which I like the best since that makes sense.
Edited to add, Rudy: I started with the small wavy one, and I think the kit must just ramp up fast anyway!
The fishing I like most with this reel is trolling for salmon. Sometimes it is with a downrigger, otherwise it's a sinker release. Dave has taught me a lot and on his boat the drag is basically set once reasonably to fairly tight, you don't want to mess with it later. I am not sure it will be a big thing one way or the other.
Rob
As humans. we tend to to overweight anecdotal evidence, and discount the science. We do do this at our peril. But we can't help it. This is how we are wired :)
Quote
You can get away with soaking a stock jigmaster with bushing but if you're running oiled bearings I would not soak at all. A low-pressure rinse will suffice but don't skip you regular seasonal maintenance.
440c stainless (what is used from stainless reel ball bearings) has similar corrosion resistance properties to 18/8 (AKA 304), the same stuff that is used to make our stainless forks, knifes, spoons , pots and pans that we all toss into our dishwasher with impunity. 440c will not corrode much at all from freshwater exposure, but it is not that resistant to saltwater.
A quick dip in freshwater is usually not enough to allow the salinity levels to equalize. You will need a nice half hour soak in warm water if the water is not moving much and/or some parts are in small pockets, and you need to evacuate the water from the soak as best as possible to remove the maximum amount of salt.
The amount of salt in contact with metals in the innards will be be the primary factor in how much corrosion occurs over time. water will be the secondary factor. Corrosion will work faster if everything is completely wet, but in most locales, there is plenty of moisture in the air to allow the innards to corrode if there are salt crystals present.
Whether you soak or do your best to keep the insides dry, a coating of grease is your best friend. Salt touching metal is the primary enemy, not water.
-----------------------------------
Quote
One of my Shimano manuals advises wiping down all exterior surfaces after a rinse and dry but before storing. WD-40 has always been controversial but as Fred stated is excellent when used as intended. WD-40 is also an excellent solvent for cleaning grease and gunk while doing your seasonal maintenance. WD-40 is believed to do no harm to mono line but I don't know how it would affect braid.
WD-40 (and similar products) work by solvents penetrating into the pores in the metal surface and leaving a a coating that fills the pores. On the outer surfaces of the reel, the only downside is that it the protective coating will interfere with the aluminum forming oxides a on any scratches, but still possibly a net win.
If you do as Fred recommends and squirt WD-40 inside the reel as a stopgap, you might want to keep doing this regularly. The solvents in these all-in-one products will dissolve the grease, potentially leaving parts exposed to salt once the (not very durable) protective coating wears off. Remember that the water "displacement" just means that the solvent elbowed its way into direct contact with the metal. the water (and salt) remain in the reel.
Using a waxy coating product like Boeshield before assembly sounds like a good idea, as long as you wait for the solvents to offgas before greasing.
Polyethylene (spectra) braid is resistant to most solvents, more than nylon, but but both are pretty good. The residue from the penetrant/sealant will make your knots more slippery. BTW, one of the solvents that does effect polyethylene is found in some Sharpie markers. At least some rock climbing guys recommend not to mark polyethylene rope, harnesses, etc., with a permanent marker pen.
----------------
Regarding the "wrong grease"
From a standards perspective, my understanding is that there is no such thing as marine grease. "Marine" grease is a marketing term. There are standardized ASTM tests for salt spray, but from what I have read, the standards are not specific enough to get a completely accurate comparison. And reel greases don't usually publish specs anyways. If you use the wrong grease, it might oxidize to quickly, separate too soon, emulsify water more than it should, but if the part is coated with grease, it will still have pretty good corrosion protection. It just won't lubricate as well. My guess is that not enough grease is the culprit more often than the wrong grease when it comes to saltwater corrosion.
YMMV,
-J
----------------
Regarding the "wrong grease"
From a standards perspective, my understanding is that there is no such thing as marine grease. "Marine" grease is a marketing term. There are standardized ASTM tests for salt spray, but from what I have read, the standards are not specific enough to get a completely accurate comparison. And reel greases don't usually publish specs anyways. If you use the wrong grease, it might oxidize to quickly, separate too soon, emulsify water more than it should, but if the part is coated with grease, it will still have pretty good corrosion protection. It just won't lubricate as well. My guess is that not enough grease is the culprit more often than the wrong grease when it comes to saltwater corrosion.
YMMV,
-J
Thanks Jurelometer. I can buy that. Steel rusts, clearly. I think the gears were lubed up about as much as one can though generally speaking. Most of it is going to squeeze out anyway. And, to your point, they were not damaged at all. I went with a light coat everywhere else per the doctors orders and there wasn't any other trouble. I'll take another look after a few more trips and see how the Penn grease is holding up in my case. I do like it more than that cheap stuff; The Penn blue is definitely tackier / thicker, not to mention it smells better and is prettier. (https://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_bucktooth.gif)
Rob
Rob, the 5 stack ramps up faster because of more drag area.
Nice reel, Rob!
Rob, I would strongly recommend not allowing any grease around the dog, I would just use a small drop of tsi or reelx. The grease will start to migrate from the gear and build up around the dog and cause the dog to stick.
Thanks sabaman1. I am not sure I could really put less grease there, but the migration issue might crop up.. This pic makes it look thicker than it is. It was just a light brushing on the bridge plate and the dog, I'll have to just keep an eye on it I guess. I did the same originally with the crap grease and never had an issue. I have cranked on it enough so far that likely whatever would happen has probably done so. Time will tell and I'll take another look after some use.
It sounds like there is a fine line between having too little grease on the gears and having too much of it ending up on the dog. :-\
Thanks again-
Rob
Have been quietly watching and enjoying this thread.
Both photos above make me shudder in a different way. :D
I heard that Cor! ;)
That main gear.. :o It's an after, and then a before! Is that crazy or what?
I still can't believe it, start to finish.
Hey Rob, so which specific grease did you use before? I hope it's not what I'm using!
Quote from: JoseCuervo on September 27, 2020, 05:56:17 AM
I heard that Cor! ;)
That main gear.. :o It's an after, and then a before! Is that crazy or what?
I still can't believe it, start to finish.
To answer your original question ??? ???
With grease I believe in "less is more" and the second picture reminds me of a water pump I once fixed, the whole thing was corroded like that.
So probably not the reply you expected.
Quote from: nelz on September 27, 2020, 05:36:22 PM
Hey Rob, so which specific grease did you use before? I hope it's not what I'm using!
MasterPro. It is shown in the pic on page 2, same pic with the Penn grease.
Quote from: JoseCuervo on September 27, 2020, 08:24:31 PMQuote from: nelz on September 27, 2020, 05:36:22 PMHey Rob, so which specific grease did you use before? I hope it's not what I'm using!
MasterPro. It is shown in the pic on page 2, same pic with the Penn grease.
Ok, got it.
Hmm... you know, I've taken apart old neglected Penns that were covered with so much pitting and corrosion that you could hardly see the chrome any more, but I've never seen an interior so badly covered in rust as yours was. I just find this very bizarre!