Post questions about this reel in this thread
I picked up a Senator 113 on the auction site last week. The spool interested me. I had found a 115 with a spool with German silver flanges a few weeks ago, and this one looked similar. This is how it looked on Ebay when I spotted it
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_25%20Penn%20Senator%20113%204_0/s-l1600_zpsjv6itscs.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_25%20Penn%20Senator%20113%204_0/s-l1600_zpsjv6itscs.jpg.html)
I sent the photo to a person who is very knowledgeable regarding Penn reels, who advised me that "it was not collectible" with the comment that it looked as though someone had put the spool in a drill and sanded off all the chrome down to brass. I paid relatively little for the reel. When it arrived I inspected more closely, and I was thinking it was not chromed; it didn't have any green verdigris
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_25%20Penn%20Senator%20113%204_0/DSC_8131_zpsu4xzwre6.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_25%20Penn%20Senator%20113%204_0/DSC_8131_zpsu4xzwre6.jpg.html)
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_25%20Penn%20Senator%20113%204_0/DSC_8132_zpstwdtlk3o.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_25%20Penn%20Senator%20113%204_0/DSC_8132_zpstwdtlk3o.jpg.html)
Plain cleaning and vinegar only got me this far
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_25%20Penn%20Senator%20113%204_0/DSC_8136_zpswpzzpgzf.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_25%20Penn%20Senator%20113%204_0/DSC_8136_zpswpzzpgzf.jpg.html)
Long story short, it did turn out to be German silver; here's how it turned out in the end after 1500 grit and 2000 grit wet sanding
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_25%20Penn%20Senator%20113%204_0/DSC_8142.NEF_zpseictdgjo.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_25%20Penn%20Senator%20113%204_0/DSC_8142.NEF_zpseictdgjo.jpg.html)
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_25%20Penn%20Senator%20113%204_0/DSC_8147_zps4igetetk.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_25%20Penn%20Senator%20113%204_0/DSC_8147_zps4igetetk.jpg.html)
So, naturally, I'm here, so I'm interested in dating this reel. It has no numbered parts; It has a German silver spool. It's got a really plain counterweight on the handle
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_25%20Penn%20Senator%20113%204_0/DSC_8169_zpse20ngszv.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_25%20Penn%20Senator%20113%204_0/DSC_8169_zpse20ngszv.jpg.html)
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_25%20Penn%20Senator%20113%204_0/DSC_8164_zpsz8n7dxnt.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_25%20Penn%20Senator%20113%204_0/DSC_8164_zpsz8n7dxnt.jpg.html)
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_25%20Penn%20Senator%20113%204_0/DSC_8163_zpsacna5ecq.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_25%20Penn%20Senator%20113%204_0/DSC_8163_zpsacna5ecq.jpg.html)
I'm just going to throw out that this is a pre-war early '40's reel; the others with similar spools have been from that era. I'm particularly interested in the handle counterweight design and when that was used on these Senators; perhaps that offers a clue to this reel's age to someone.
Sid
The biggest clue about this reel is it a second generation reel, which puts it post 1948. Since it still has a German Silver flanged spool, I would date it 1949 to 1952. The handle counter weight is correct for the years I have dated the reel. When Penn left the coin edged counter weights, they went to this one piece, plain design and them made them laminated.
Quote from: Penn Chronology on April 11, 2016, 05:05:17 AM
The biggest clue about this reel is it a second generation reel, which puts it post 1948.
Doh! I should have realized that. Thanks for the help with dating and the counterweight info. That is very helpful and interesting. This is the only reel in my collection with such a counterweight. Mike, 48-52 is a pretty narrow range, but can I say that it's the earlier part of the range, say 48-50 based on the absence of numbered parts? I know the parts numbers things isn't exact during the transition period of say '50-52 or so (is that correct?), so I guess what you were saying is that there could still have been reels in '52 without any part numbers?
Nice find, and an excellent job restoring that reel.
Thanks, John. I guess I may have to bid against some of you folks if I do a good enough job showing you how I have come to recognize these spools on Ebay. Maybe I should just keep my mouth shut :)
Sid
Here's the link to the 115 with the German silver spool flanges http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=17381.0 but you guys have to promise you won't bid against me for these reels with these spools :) Sheesh, I'm an idiot. I'll never win another auction for one of these spools now....
Sid
Some folks on ORCA have reported these spools with the German silver flanges. The two I've found have had a post on the arbor. The ones on the ORCA site were drilled, I'm pretty sure. Hopefully someone will correct this if it's wrong.
Sid
Diamond in the rough there Sid. What catches my eye most is the intricacy of the billfishing scene on the tailplate. Every wave/chop/splash carved in. Sorry, I just look at the pictures.
-steve
Sid,
Let me know if you spot one for a 14/0 with a drilled arbor.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on April 11, 2016, 07:11:38 AM
Sid,
Let me know if you spot one for a 14/0 with a drilled arbor.
John, I promise, I'll let you know the moment I spot the
second 14/0 with German silver flanges. The first one is mine :) I have a 113 and a 115 to date. I'm looking to complete the set. How cool would that be?
Sid
All of the early Senators are German Silver according to the box labels, they simply all do not have the GS look because of the chrome and years of dirt. Funny thing, I feel that when they are polished they lose the Penn look somewhat. They are certainly pretty; but, there is something incorrect about the look. The Penn starts to look like a vom Hofe.
The part number transition was thought of as complete by most collectors by 1953; but, I am sure someone can refute that with some kind of new find of an NOS 1954 reel missing a part number somewhere. So it is hard to put a 100% date on the transition and in my opinion, sort of pointless. I always like to think of the transition as a transition, rather than an exact line. Sort of like evolution. We cannot find the missing link because there isn't one. ::)
Quote from: Penn Chronology on April 11, 2016, 02:54:47 PM
I feel that when they are polished they lose the Penn look somewhat. They are certainly pretty; but, there is something incorrect about the look. The Penn starts to look like a vom Hofe.
I get what you're saying, but I like the look. It's certainly preferable to a chrome corroded ugly mess, and if they were all German silver early on I don't understand why they seem to be so scarce. Maybe they aren't. I certainly don't have the experience here that you do.... maybe the well-kept reels with exposed German silver flanged spools are not trading often on the auction site and I have an even more skewed view of reality than my normally skewed view of reality :)
Thanks for the help.
Sid
Sid - May want to check your host... it seems your photos are MIA.
Quote from: Penn Chronology on April 11, 2016, 02:54:47 PM
All of the early Senators are German Silver according to the box labels, they simply all do not have the GS look because of the chrome and years of dirt.
Mike, with all due respect, I don't believe the box labels. Here is my 1st gen '37-38 115 9/0 and spool. This can't be anything but chrome over brass IMO. By "early" I assume these years fit your description. Perhaps this one spool is an exception. I wouldn't know, I've only ever held two 115's, this one and the German silver flanged one I posted about here http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=17381.0
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_28%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0/Reel%20No_26%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0%201st%20Gen/DSC_8180_zpsyh7wbicy.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_28%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0/Reel%20No_26%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0%201st%20Gen/DSC_8180_zpsyh7wbicy.jpg.html)
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah127/sdlehr/Reel%20No_28%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0/Reel%20No_26%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0%201st%20Gen/DSC_8182_zpsaslpfpk5.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/sdlehr/media/Reel%20No_28%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0/Reel%20No_26%20Penn%20Senator%20115%209_0%201st%20Gen/DSC_8182_zpsaslpfpk5.jpg.html)
Sid
Quote from: coastal_dan on April 11, 2016, 06:54:41 PM
Sid - May want to check your host... it seems your photos are MIA.
Thanks, Dan. Just fixed. It was my problem, not photobucket's. Been doing some organizing today and didn't think I had moved files.... but apparently I did. It's all better now. Thanks.
Sid
pictures fixed
Sid
So I've been doing some sleuthing and I came across this pic of Ray's; it's a first year 9/0 with one side of the box; that side says nothing about chrome or German silver, but it does say SS. I'm sure Mike is right and it is listed on another face of the box; or another box from a different early year.... but I'd like to see it for myself; I believe, I just will remember better seeing it. Is it the '36, or later that has this?
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m531/kingfisher57/Teds9-0.png) (http://s1130.photobucket.com/user/kingfisher57/media/Teds9-0.png.html)
QuoteSo I've been doing some sleuthing and I came across this pic of Ray's; it's a first year 9/0 with one side of the box; that side says nothing about chrome or German silver, but it does say SS. I'm sure Mike is right and it is listed on another face of the box; or another box from a different early year.... but I'd like to see it for myself; I believe, I just will remember better seeing it. Is it the '36, or later that has this?
Here is a 1938 Penn Senator 4/0 box. BTW, this is the first 4/0..
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Penn%20Senators/DSC08372%20-%20Copy_zpsmtrgz3j0.jpg)
Here is the box labeling for the German Silver parts. The stainless parts are internal.
The 115 box from Ray's collection is a 1936 / 37 year box only and that style box was only used for the Model 115, there is no other labeling on this Model 115 box. What you see is everything. At the time of this box release, there were no other Senators except for the Model 115, making this box unique to the Model 115. It is an assumption that Penn even considered the Model 115 a size 9/0 at the time of its release. In 1936 it was the only Senator and no size had been assigned to the reel yet.
All other early Senators are in a Lighthouse box like I have pictured here.
Thanks, Mike, interesting. They say German silver "frame". Is that the rings, posts and foot? Seems that the spool should never be considered part of the frame.... Can you share a photo of the reel in question, or do you just have the box? ;) I guess if the posts, rings and foot are chrome plated German silver they'll look just like the chrome plated brass....
Sid
Quote from: sdlehr on April 12, 2016, 05:56:55 PM
Thanks, Mike, interesting. They say German silver "frame". Is that the rings, posts and foot? Seems that the spool should never be considered part of the frame.... Can you share a photo of the reel in question, or do you just have the box? ;) I guess if the posts, rings and foot are chrome plated German silver they'll look just like the chrome plated brass....
Sid
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=13461.0
Well, John did refer us to the other thread; but, here is close up of the 1938 reel. I sort of feel the chrome looks a bit different than a brass reel.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC08378816x612408x306.jpg)
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC08386539x404.jpg)
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC08382816x612408x306.jpg)
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC08387816x612408x306.jpg)
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC08376539x404.jpg)
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/DSC08372539x404.jpg)
Quote from: Penn Chronology on April 13, 2016, 05:32:11 AM
l I sort of feel the chrome looks a bit different than a brass reel.
Agree. The rings and handle look different than chromed brass. The foot looks the same as chromed brass to me, but is lit differently so it might actually look like the rest. Thanks.
Sid
I had a good fishin' buddy that died a few years ago and his wife finally decided to unload a bunch of his fishing gear. Most of it was just run of the mill old rods and reels...no holy grails. I told her I'd like to buy the 4/0 Senator pictured here...just to have something of his. I didn't have a black plate 4/0, so I shined it up the best I could and added it to my collection. The chrome is rough, and it has initials carved in both plates, but the steel gears were in great shape. I replaced the old 3-stack of brake lining discs with a carbon fiber 5-stack, straightened the bent handle,
and straightened a bent lug also. The drag star has a nice long travel range, due to those thick squishy HT-100s. I bet John is lookin' down smiling...waiting to see me spin a big bird's nest with it. ;) :D 8)
Quote from: sdlehr on April 12, 2016, 03:33:50 AM
So I've been doing some sleuthing and I came across this pic of Ray's; it's a first year 9/0 with one side of the box; that side says nothing about chrome or German silver, but it does say SS. I'm sure Mike is right and it is listed on another face of the box; or another box from a different early year.... but I'd like to see it for myself; I believe, I just will remember better seeing it. Is it the '36, or later that has this?
Sid, that box and 9/0 reel do not belong to Ray. That box and reel resides in my China hutch. It's my 401k. Hopefully it'll be worth something some day
-Ted
Hey Mo..
Nice job on the 4/0. Notice the different/early style harness lugs. Not sure what years they were produced off the top of my head though?
John
Once again I was inspired by Mo....he is my long lost brother from another mother ;) ;)
From the early 4/0's to the last "made in USA" 4/0 not much changed except the frame spool and handle. Although 50+ years apart, the sideplates on these reels are interchangeable and internals are same basic design
The 4/0 is plentiful and very affordable and one of the best bargains out there
Ted
Quote from: Maxed Out on January 14, 2018, 02:53:14 AM
Once again I was inspired by Mo....he is my long lost brother from another mother ;) ;)
I'm just happy I'm able to inspire the guy who inspired me. 8)
Can someone tell me what year this 4/0 sideplate is from?
Don't quote me, but in my experience I've seen this picture plate on the 4/0 up thru the mid to late 60's
Quote from: Maxed Out on November 07, 2019, 07:49:38 PMDon't quote me, but in my experience I've seen this picture plate on the 4/0 up thru the mid to late 60's
Thanks man, keepin' it clam.
So how far back have you seen it?
Quote from: nelz on November 07, 2019, 09:47:57 PM
Quote from: Maxed Out on November 07, 2019, 07:49:38 PMDon't quote me, but in my experience I've seen this picture plate on the 4/0 up thru the mid to late 60's
Thanks man, keepin' it clam.
So how far back have you seen it?
That 4/0 picture plate started in the late 30's when the 4/0 was first introduced. I may be way off on when that picture plate was changed.... Perhaps late 50's
Is there a higher speed option for the agravatingly slow 2:1 on this reel? Perhaps swaping from a different model Penn?
I just picked one up for a too good to pass on price at the flea market. It cleaned up nice and I used it already. Tons of torque with the 2:1, but just toooo slooowwww....
Yeah, not a huge jump in speed though - the original 'Grouper special' conversion used a LB 66 bridge, pinion and yoke with the 113 main gave a 2.4:1 ratio from memory. Sal took it a bit further to 2.6:1 with his 'Grouper special' by using a 5-149 main with a 13-113H pinion (only Sal would think of that pairing) Sal's version needed a bit of dremel work to fit the 5-149 https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=9979.15 (https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=9979.15)
Mike
Thanks, yeah, I agree, not worth it to gain .5 or .6
I heard there was an Accurate or Newell set of 4:1 gears for these reels but can't find them anywhere.
The 4 to 1 gears are for the 113H, HL, & HLW. Maroon & red plate Special Senators are a different animal then the Senator black plate reels. Both are 4/0 size but that's where it basiclly ends. Rudy