Now let me get this clear from the start.
Im not the greatest, or even a moderate fisherman...............hopeless comes to mind.
Recently I decided to replace my old Alvey side cast surf reel with a conventional overhead reel.
My rod is a surf caster 12 foot.
STOP LAUGHING, ITS NOT FUNNY.
My first attempt resulted in a birds nest of truly humungious proportions.
STOP LAUGHING
An hour and several hundred of feet of fishing line later I prepared for my second cast.
This time I was far more careful, making sure my thumb was in the right place and that there was some tension on the reel.
Casting with much less effort I watched as the sinker arched beautifully toward the breakers, somewhat mystified when it suddenly stopped.
Glancing back at the reel, I observed a beautiful birds nest that any bird would have been proud of.
STOP LAUGHING.
Now I use a baitcaster reel for normal fishing and I rarely get a nest or any such problems.
But I cant seem to get the overhead to work for me.
Could anyone help me with some tips or tricks?
Ill give it a few more goes and then the reel will find itself permanently under water.
The birds nest was somewhat of a lesser extent, but still considerable.
Which conventional reel are you trying to cast with would be a good place to start?
mag it, there are few threads here that shows you how to do it, google it or buy PMR's mag kit... hope this helps, tight lines!
btw keep as posted!
x2 mag it (preferably adjustable) it will at least give you the chance to 'educate' your thumb ;)
Or buy yourself an Avet MC model... not inexpensive, but mine has yet to produce a nest. ;)
~A~
Questions: graphite or glas rod? stiffness plays a big part in casting style
what reel, as inquired above? depending, we can help you tune it to your capability as you educate your thumb. not all reels are capable of being magged in any case, or dont need it with proper bearing sets / lubricants. I back the magnets full off my 525's and magpowers so they may as well not have them.
is it levelwind?
what line test?
what weight are your throwing, and bait or lure?
are you thumbing the side of the spool or the line directly (a great way to fluff a larger reel cast with a lot of power.
whats the distance from butt cap to reel seat?
Ok
Many questions, Ill do my best.
The reel is a Penn Defiance Level wind.
The rod is a 12 foot beach rod, sorry don't know the brand. Quite flexible at the last third, but quite stiff from there back.
The line is good quality mono, 20 lb.
I use bait with a 3/4 inch ball sinker (The bait is Cunji, a sort of growth on the rocks and is reasonably large.)
Overall I would guess about 1-2 ounces total.
I am thumbing the spool, giving it reasonable freedom to spool off, but it just seems to go wild.
I assume the butt cap is the rear end of the rod, its about 18 inches.
Practicing yesterday I was casting with the wind, I had considerably more luck and better distance.
When I was getting the big birds nests I was casting into the wind.
Could this have been a factor?
By the way, in practicing yesterday, I found a new and even more interesting way to make a birds nest.
STOP LAUGHING.
When one goes to set the hook, its a good idea to set the lever back to strike, not leave it at free spool.
That sudden jerk sets the reel spinning at a good rate of knots, (Pun intended)
Yet another magnificent birds nest.
Quote from: valkie on December 15, 2015, 05:17:01 AM
STOP LAUGHING, ITS NOT FUNNY.....
well, it is kinda funny....... ;D
Hi Valkie,
I don't know the Penn model that you are using, however pretty sure that it will not have any braking system in it – centrifugal or magnetic – and here lies the very core of your problem. Even most accomplished surf casters use reels with some forms of braking – those that don't just don't get the distance. This is why you don't have problems with your baitcaster – it has a braking system.
The braking systems allow the reel to spin, but not to furious speeds. This keeps the whole story under some sort of marginal control during the cast. So, perhaps a different overhead reel might be in order – definitely one with some form of braking system. The level wind is doing you no favours either, so skip that sales feature.
The next aspect is the rod, sound like a glass fibre rod, though could be carbon, but at 12' long casting just 2oz of combined sinker and bait, you are probably not getting it working properly to launch the bait and sinker at speed – indeed speed enough to take line from the reel fast enough to not cause your favourite pastime – 'crow's nest un-knitting'! Try a couple of casts with 3 or even 4oz sinkers, but try to be smooth in the casts – you don't need to drive the rod hard enough to put the sinker the other side of the ocean. There will be an optimum weight for your rod, you just have to find it.
Next during the learning phase, try loading the reels with heavier line, say 30 or 40lb, less prone to getting crow's nests.
Next is to be less aggressive with the casting technique, as smoother relates to smoother release of the sinker and subsequent flight. We find most crow's nests happen at either 30 metres from the caster – very rough and jerky cast and release, or at the very end of the flight, when the sinker is being affected by gravity and no longer pulling line off the reel as fast as the reel is spinning – this is a time to seriously thumb the spool. TA point here is that you are looking for a high trajectory for your sinker, so that you have time to watch it through the air, and can see when it starts to drop and slow – now start thumbing the spool.
Casting into the wind has helped because it has slowed or smoothed out the flight of the sinker, this lead me to believe that your casting style is potentially aggressive and forceful. Have a scour of the 'net', and look for a video of John Holden doing the 'Easy Cast'. It is a technique we use here for teaching to get people casting smoothly and in a relaxed fashion – and the key word here is relaxed, as it uses a technique to get the rod doing the work, not the angler.
Hope that helps.
Cheers from sunny Africa
Jeri
Hi Alan,
Something that would be very useful for various reasons, is to know where folks are residing, as this could be very relavent to the advise that can be given, especially when answering queries like this one. We do all our surf fishing with 5 and 6oz sinkers or heavier. Other places are fishing much lighter, so it is all relavent to where - so that we can give best advice. Perhaps it could be added to the individual profile that is displayed?
I try not to laugh at folks when they get the ultimate 'crow's nests' - they get so dis-spirited. But it is still funny in an obscure way. :-)
Jeri
Hi Valkie
As suggested it not really a casting reel. Its big and ugly , no brakes and a level wind just to add to problems.
I doubt the Jamie at PMR could get it to cast much better with a mag.
You might want to try a Penn 535 Mag or Sqall20 both come with Mag brakes and really easy to cast. The others you can try which are very suitable for fishing with are Daiwa SL20SH or SL30SH, which is a 20 with a wider spool.
Or The Avet mags as suggested earlier, which are great casting reels even though they are a little on the expensive side compare to the others
I had to tighten the spool tension knobs up pretty snug on two reels one night for a guy He had the same issue big backlashes they were new reels and he was used to spinning reels.
You needed three or more ounce weight to get any distance.
Quote from: Red brown on December 16, 2015, 08:07:45 AM
I had to tighten the spool tension knobs up pretty snug on two reels one night for a guy He had the same issue big backlashes they were new reels and he was used to spinning reels.
If you are tightening the left bearing knob on a Penn reel you are side loading a bearing not designed to be a thrust bearing. It will wear out the bearing & cause wear on both ends of the spool, later causing bearing & spool replacement. You are supposed to have a few thousandth end play in the spool when it is adjusted correctly. If you need more drag on the spool try heavier grease, magnets, your thumb etc. or a reel designed to increase casting drag.
It appears that I may be trying to drive a Porsch off road through the bush instead of a 4x4 from what I gather.
I may need a more suitable reel for this task.
I have an old Akuma reel that I once used and it was reasonable, I think it has the brakes you talked about.
I think it quite funny every time I get a nest.
Laughing at it makes it somewhat less annoying, its that or smashing the damn thing on the rocks.
I live on the East coast of Australia, about 100K or 60 miles north of Sydney.
I fish in saltwater lakes which are a predominant feature in my area, surf fishing and Boat fishing Off shore.
This latest exercise is rock fishing.
That is to say, standing precariously perched on a rocky outcrop, watching for rogue waves that are continually trying to embrace me and take me swimming.
We loose several rock fishermen every year over here, mainly because they dont know the safety procedures when taken unawares by a wave.
I will give up on this reel and start using the old Akuma, as you have said a breaking system may be the core of my problem.
Im off away for a few weeks, Ill post again once I have tried all you have suggested.
Thanks Guys
Its nice to know that I can get sage advice when I need it from truly experienced fishermen.
Cheers
Valkie, even my reels with centrifugal brakes will get a birds nest if not adjusted properly, but even when adjusted properly if I'm casting into the wind and a gust picks up while my line is in flight it will slow down the line travel enough to create a birds' nest. Sometimes stuff just happens.
more weight! At least 4 oz. Heavier if used with stiff rod.
excellent responses all; i think you arent throwing enough weight to properly overcome the spool inertia of that reel.
Quote from: thorhammer on December 16, 2015, 08:35:29 PM
excellent responses all; i think you arent throwing enough weight to properly overcome the spool inertia of that reel.
Isn't the problem the opposite of this? The spool is moving too fast, not too slow..... if not enough weight to overcome spool inertia wouldn't it just lessen the length of the cast and make a bird's nest less likely?
Practice,practice,practice.....That is name of game!
Joe
I hear ya Sdlehr;
I have had some monumental nests in my time.
Even with the old tried and true Side cast and spinning reels.
Guess Im not much of a fisherman.
Never had this problem with hand lines.
But, practice make mediocre, Ill forget using overheads that are level winds and stick to braked Overheads.
Ill be waiting until my next birthday though, I used up all my brownie points getting a new off shore rod and reel.
Thanks again for your support and commiserations.
Perhaps one day I too with be able to cast like the pros.
Valkie, at one time or another, we've all dealt with birds nests. When it's the reel's fault and not the caster's fault then it's an easier solution... I think....
Its called a Kayak. ;)
No Kayak for me, we have some nasty bities hanging around lately.
There have been several reports of large sharks bumping boats and chewing outboards in the saltwater lake where I fish.
Just yesterday while working in the Maritime Rescue we had a boat asking what to do when a shark is chewing your propeller.
Seems that the props, when in neutral, spin slowly and the flashing of the stainless prop attracts sharks.
I aint going out in anything smaller than my 5 meter boat
Quote from: valkie on December 17, 2015, 07:33:43 AM
No Kayak for me, we have some nasty bities hanging around lately.
There have been several reports of large sharks bumping boats and chewing outboards in the saltwater lake where I fish.
Just yesterday while working in the Maritime Rescue we had a boat asking what to do when a shark is chewing your propeller.
Seems that the props, when in neutral, spin slowly and the flashing of the stainless prop attracts sharks.
I aint going out in anything smaller than my 5 meter boat
I'm with you on the boat idea, except I would not go out in anything less then 8 meters. ;)
Joe
Quote from: valkie on December 17, 2015, 07:33:43 AM
No Kayak for me, we have some nasty bities hanging around lately.
There have been several reports of large sharks bumping boats and chewing outboards in the saltwater lake where I fish.
Just yesterday while working in the Maritime Rescue we had a boat asking what to do when a shark is chewing your propeller.
Seems that the props, when in neutral, spin slowly and the flashing of the stainless prop attracts sharks.
I aint going out in anything smaller than my 5 meter boat
A kayak has neither an outboard nor a prop! Go for it! ;D ;D ;D
The reason the sharks bite at the motors is the sacrificial anode in the lower unit.
It gives off a pulse in the water that the sharks are attracted to.
I'm serious. It is their dinner bell.
I need to get some. ;D
Quote from: Shark Hunter on December 19, 2015, 12:48:45 PM
The reason the sharks bite at the motors is the sacrificial anode in the lower unit.
It gives off a pulse in the water that the sharks are attracted to.
I'm serious. It is their dinner bell.
I need to get some. ;D
Very cool. The sacrificial anode is zinc. I was thinking about how this could be used to advantage in shark fishing.... but the zinc would have to be in contact with another metal for all this to work as it does in a boat. A strip of zinc lashed to the side of a bait wouldn't work. But a zinc strip in contact with an iron strip just might set up a current that could do the job! I'm gonna patent that idea..... not!
You could try what I saw last week in Honolulu. Watched some very frugal fishermen making some nice cast using used spark plugs. Seriously though the level wind is not going to help you much on a hard distance cast and a nightmare to clean a birds nest out of it.
I need to practice with my 344 next week before my next HI trip.
Quote from: valkie on December 15, 2015, 05:17:01 AM
Now let me get this clear from the start.
Im not the greatest, or even a moderate fisherman...............hopeless comes to mind.
Recently I decided to replace my old Alvey side cast surf reel with a conventional overhead reel.
My rod is a surf caster 12 foot.
STOP LAUGHING, ITS NOT FUNNY.
My first attempt resulted in a birds nest of truly humungious proportions.
STOP LAUGHING
An hour and several hundred of feet of fishing line later I prepared for my second cast.
This time I was far more careful, making sure my thumb was in the right place and that there was some tension on the reel.
Casting with much less effort I watched as the sinker arched beautifully toward the breakers, somewhat mystified when it suddenly stopped.
Glancing back at the reel, I observed a beautiful birds nest that any bird would have been proud of.
STOP LAUGHING.
Now I use a baitcaster reel for normal fishing and I rarely get a nest or any such problems.
But I cant seem to get the overhead to work for me.
Could anyone help me with some tips or tricks?
Ill give it a few more goes and then the reel will find itself permanently under water.
The birds nest was somewhat of a lesser extent, but still considerable.
pull out the amount of line you want to cast. take masking tape and tape the remaining line on the spool down. 2 turns of masking tape should do it.
This prevents backlash as the line isn't going anywhere. If you hook a big fish, the line will cut thru the masking tape.
You may have other problems with the reel, but hopefully this will help.
pull out the amount of line you want to cast. take masking tape and tape the remaining line on the spool down. 2 turns of masking tape should do it.
This prevents backlash as the line isn't going anywhere. If you hook a big fish, the line will cut thru the masking tape.
You may have other problems with the reel, but hopefully this will help.[/quote]
Interesting idea. Obviously, if you plan on catching more than one fish you will need to bring a roll of masking tape with you ;)
In my experience, my best casts with conventional reels has been on my Penn Longbeach 67. After that my TLD25 Both are on rods under 6'. As the others mentioned the braking system on bait casters, I use my thumbs as the brake just like you said. When your conventional reel is too smooth and there is no braking system, it will create a birds nest.
Something important for me has been to keep the weight as close to the tip which can be detrimental in some cases in regards to catching fish. To elaborate better, Ill cast a small bait off the pier with an 8oz sinker (tides are rough and I need the bait to sit in position). Now when I cast, the sinker will determine the length of the cast not the bait due to the heavier item. But what will happen sometimes is that the weight of the bait (lighter) will counter set (I don't know how to explain that) the 8oz sinker and the cast becomes crap and a birds nest occurs. Better example, to ends with the same weight will spin evenly but two ends with different weights and its all thrown off balance. Now theoretically if I just cast the 8oz sinker it will go out beautiful with no problem in other words its good to have a heavy bait. This can be of some help.
I agree Red
Through experimentation I also found that keeping the weight closer to the tip reduces the nesting.
My theory;
The weight, when cast with a longer lead, tends to whip the line at the start rather than allow a smooth gradual increase in acceleration.
The result, the spool is suddenly accelerated to a high speed rather than a gradual more controlled increase in speed.
This makes unspooling harder to control as we want to want a free spool initially with a gradually decreasing speed as the weight slows down.
With the sudden increase the spool overtakes the lines ability to feed out = birds nest.
As for bait setup from rocks. (Totally different from all my other fishing)
I use a running sinker right down to the bait, no swivel.
I have found this most effective from rocks, still catch plenty of fish and don't seem to get hung up on rocks quite as often as I do when using a trace line and remote sinker.
I fish with Cunji, which is a reasonably heavy bait which covers the hook very well.
I also use longer shank hooks.
I still loose a few hooks and sinkers each fishing outing though, but that is par for the course when fishing off rocks.
PS
Lately I have been using an Alvey side cast on the last few outings.
I am getting only slightly better distance from this reel than I was getting from the overhead (probably my lousy casting technique)
I will therefore be persevering with the overhead, I like using overheads, especially when fighting a fish.
The side cast I use has no drag and relies on me releasing the wind handles and using my hand on the bottom of the reel to act as a friction drag. Nowhere near as effective as the proper drag on an overhead.
As you guys have stated ad-infinitum, practice, practice, practice.
Cheers
I haven't really read anyone's replies, but I don't want to sound redundant when everyone else has pretty much said everything already. Just practice and you will eventually get it. It's mostly about educating your thumb and getting used to throwing a conventional setup. Once you get it, you will realize it's not that hard. I surfcast off the jetties and beach with strictly conventional gear, except when I am throwing light lures. My favorite reel right now is the akios 656ctm, which I bought the beginning of the year and love it. It is so smooth, and casts so well. I like it better than my abu. Even though they both have the same 5.3:1 gear ratio, the akios feels like it is a slower gear the way it is buttery smooth cranking in heavy lead and bait. The abu struggles in comparison. It has two braking systems, a centrifigul and magnetic, but I don't really need it unless I am tossing something particularly light or if there is a strong head wind. You don't need to have a breaking system to cast well. I didn't when I first learned. You will get to a point where you can get a sense of a birdsnest coming and prevent it and still make a good cast. Persevere and practice and you will love it.
Quote from: valkie on December 31, 2015, 10:35:37 PM
I agree Red
Through experimentation I also found that keeping the weight closer to the tip reduces the nesting.
My theory;
The weight, when cast with a longer lead, tends to whip the line at the start rather than allow a smooth gradual increase in acceleration.
The result, the spool is suddenly accelerated to a high speed rather than a gradual more controlled increase in speed.
This makes unspooling harder to control as we want to want a free spool initially with a gradually decreasing speed as the weight slows down.
With the sudden increase the spool overtakes the lines ability to feed out = birds nest.
As for bait setup from rocks. (Totally different from all my other fishing)
I use a running sinker right down to the bait, no swivel.
I have found this most effective from rocks, still catch plenty of fish and don't seem to get hung up on rocks quite as often as I do when using a trace line and remote sinker.
I fish with Cunji, which is a reasonably heavy bait which covers the hook very well.
I also use longer shank hooks.
I still loose a few hooks and sinkers each fishing outing though, but that is par for the course when fishing off rocks.
PS
Lately I have been using an Alvey side cast on the last few outings.
I am getting only slightly better distance from this reel than I was getting from the overhead (probably my lousy casting technique)
I will therefore be persevering with the overhead, I like using overheads, especially when fighting a fish.
The side cast I use has no drag and relies on me releasing the wind handles and using my hand on the bottom of the reel to act as a friction drag. Nowhere near as effective as the proper drag on an overhead.
As you guys have stated ad-infinitum, practice, practice, practice.
Cheers
agreed...
Quote from: newport on January 01, 2016, 01:48:14 AM
I haven't really read anyone's replies, but I don't want to sound redundant when everyone else has pretty much said everything already. Just practice and you will eventually get it. It's mostly about educating your thumb and getting used to throwing a conventional setup. Once you get it, you will realize it's not that hard. I surfcast off the jetties and beach with strictly conventional gear, except when I am throwing light lures. My favorite reel right now is the akios 656ctm, which I bought the beginning of the year and love it. It is so smooth, and casts so well. I like it better than my abu. Even though they both have the same 5.3:1 gear ratio, the akios feels like it is a slower gear the way it is buttery smooth cranking in heavy lead and bait. The abu struggles in comparison. It has two braking systems, a centrifigul and magnetic, but I don't really need it unless I am tossing something particularly light or if there is a strong head wind. You don't need to have a breaking system to cast well. I didn't when I first learned. You will get to a point where you can get a sense of a birdsnest coming and prevent it and still make a good cast. Persevere and practice and you will love it.
agreed...
this is all great info and learning from each other
One thing I've found useful is to thumb the spool flange instead of the spool arbor with the line on it, which can sometimes turn a little bit of slack into a major mess. Of course this assumes a spool that has enough of a flange. Not all modern reels have that, but lots of good old Penns do.
Mike
The trick to being successful casting conventionals is learn to feel the flex of the rod and let it make the cast for you. It is when people try to force something to happen without the use of the rod flex that things get really messed up.
Quote from: Newell Nut on January 01, 2016, 07:52:20 PM
The trick to being successful casting conventionals is learn to feel the flex of the rod and let it make the cast for you. It is when people try to force something to happen without the use of the rod flex that things get really messed up.
That's good advice along with practice.
Joe
Newell is absolutely correct. Even a well tuned reel will backlash if the rod does not properly load and unload. In a smooth cast the rod will load (flex backward) and then straighten out (unload) or bend slightly forward on the release. If you try to force it, the rod will load more power, but when it unloads the tip will bounce around instead of just straightening out. That bouncing makes the force applied to the reel through the peeling line pulsate. The speed of the spool cannot pulsate so the line goes taut-slack-taut-slack-taut-slack. That's when loops form and things go wrong.
Pay attention to the rod specifications and use the lure weight and line weight it was designed for. The rod cannot properly load and unload if the weight of lure/bait is outside the specified range. Adjust the reel brakes and/or thumb pressure to the weight of the lure/bait.
The caveat here is that a sleek metal jig has a different density (specific gravity) than a big chunk of bait of the same weight so the wind resistance will be different. Switching from a sleek metal jig to a big chunk of bait is like casting down wind and then turning around and casting upwind. When you change the wind resistance you change the force being applied to the spool. When you change the force being applied to the spool then you have to change the braking, either through reel controls (magnets, centrifugal brakes) or thumbing.
-steve
All of the above is very good info . I have two more morsels to add that I learned from fishing for tuna on crowded party boats in So, CA.
1) Always wet your spool of line at the start and throughout the day. It seems to relax the line and lets it flow off the spool better. Keep the top 25yards( or what ever distance you can cast a bait) not just damp , but wet. For me it ravels through the guides and air in a flatter arc to the distance its going ( less affected buy a breeze /wind.
2) When releasing a loaded-up rod with a baited line, you should be pointing the rod tip at the bait or lure all the way through the cast - like looking down the gun site of a rifle. This allows the line to flow out freely with little resistance from the guides. As the lure starts to drop down and the arc in the line begins grow, follow it with the rod tip and and slowly thumb the edge of the spool. to slow the spool down and control the run off of line,
This and all of the post above helps me and keeps my birds nest count down to a manageable level... on most trips.
What you want to happen is for the weight to stay ahead of the spool speed. Sounds easy but not easy without practice. I cast conventionals easy from a boat but I have been practicing shore casting with an 11 foot stick with my Newell 344 in preparation for my next trip to Hawaii. I have a 13 footer weighting for me so I need to be ready. After studying some long cast competitions I saw some things to work on. I have been making some really long cast in the bass lake behind the house and then I tried something that I keyed in on while watching videos. I made sure my right arm was perfectly straight in the cast and the loading of the rod was much greater and when the weight launched it stay ahead of the spool perfectly and only needed a thumb as it entered the water and I gained about 40 yds. Every cast in that manner worked perfect. Another thing that I noticed was similar to nice tee shots. When you make a technically perfect golf swing you should be looking at the golf ball as it sails down fairway. I noticed in my technically improved casting that I was seeing my weight flying perfectly in the direction that I wanted it to go. I could watch the weight and the spool all at the same time.
Practice, Practice and Practice.
QuoteRecently I decided to replace my old Alvey side cast surf reel with a conventional overhead reel.
My rod is a surf caster 12 foot.
STOP LAUGHING, ITS NOT FUNNY.
My first attempt resulted in a birds nest of truly humungious proportions.
STOP LAUGHING
An hour and several hundred of feet of fishing line later I prepared for my second cast.
This time I was far more careful, making sure my thumb was in the right place and that there was some tension on the reel.
Casting with much less effort I watched as the sinker arched beautifully toward the breakers, somewhat mystified when it suddenly stopped.
Glancing back at the reel, I observed a beautiful birds nest that any bird would have been proud of.
STOP LAUGHING.
*snort* wipes away tear
Oh, thank you..I needed that this morning.
Sorry, I'm absolutely no help here..my surf rod is a spinning combo and that's the setup I prefer. I can't cast conventional to save my life.
I have had the oportunuty to teach several people over the last few years how to cast a reel. I, as some here well know, am not a true SME on the subject, but I can get you started and out to 30 yards or so in a couple of sessions. I start people without letting them cast, I have them hold the spool with there thumb, kick the reel out of gear and simulate an easy cast with so much thumb pressure the spool doesn't move. Then they kick the reel back into gear and start over. After 5-6 of those I have them allow the cast to take 5ish yards of line and then stop the spool with the thumb. So on and so on. The idea is to try to not introduce the feeling of a bird's nest. This will usually get them in the water after a couple of days.
Ron
very good stuff here. I too do a lot of practice casting and what has been said is very spot on!
Mods, can we stickie this?
Sid
Hi All,
With our life pretty much evolving around surf casting, and then distance surf casting - we get to see and hear a lot of advice from clients. However, I didn't always do surf casting, in fact until 15 years ago, never picked one of these long rod things up, but on moving to Namibia to live, I had to start, and obviously have become reasonably proficient.
During the learning phase, I reached a point where I could get no further than about 120 metres, and felt that this was a problem, so searched the internet for a solution, and despite all the obvious video clips that show a huge number of styles and systems, the absolute best source of information came from John Holden's CD-ROM 'Book'. Yes, it has video clips, but it has that often essential element that is missing today, which is good explanatory text. Great something to read, even if it is ona computer screen!!
The book goes through very European style of surf fishing, but this can be adapted,a nd if you don't skip sections - thinking 'I know that' - or 'what can I learn about standing in the right place' - then you will learn heaps.
On getting the book and starting to read it, by midway through, I could resist having a casting session over grass/sand, and took a rod out. First did 3 casts in my old style, then applied the newer 'Easy Cast' style, and within 30 minutes I had extended my personal best distances beyond 150 metres, just from reading some very sound words of wisdom, froma guy that knows what he is talking about.
The CD-ROM is titled: Long Distance Casting 2 by John Holden. And for those that collect, the original 'paper book', was a gem, but now a collectors item, as it is over 30 years old.
Hope that helps
Jeri
John also has several you tube videos on the subject. I watch them all periodically just to enjoy the art of a master executing his craft.
Ron
Well, Im back from my Xmas holidays.
I had a very memorable time practicing casting with my conventional reel and long rod.
I have tried larger and smaller weights.
I have tried heavy and lighter lines.
I have even tried praying to my chosen deity.
All to no avail.
Several rolls of line and many naughty words have passed by me in my efforts.
I CAN HEAR YOU GIGGLING OUT THERE.
My most interesting was while on a break wall at Forster.
I believe it will make the news, due to the truly momentous series of events that followed my failed cast.
It all started so well, my first cast was a beautiful cast around 50-60 meters, and not a snangle to be seen.
Everyone around me nodded their heads in awe and recognition of my skill.
My second cast was exactly the opposite.
Im not sure what happened, but somewhere during tghe cast something happened and a clump of line tangled in the runners.
Noting the tangle, my attention to the spool lapsed and it spun unimpeded to a point of impossible entanglement.
Now it gets interesting, the line cast forth to fish, for once did its intended and caught a fish.
The fish, obviously recognizing the severe lack of skill of the angler started swimming up and down the break wall entangling the other anglers lines as I was so busy attempting to fix my mess that I still hadn't noticed the fish fighting on the end of my line.
In time I noted the predicament and tried to bring in my fish by hand, but it was a reasonably large fish.
Now cutting into my fingers with copious amounts of claret flowing from the cuts, I managed to get said fish to the rocks.
Only to be broken off as another angler angrily pulled his line in a vain attempt to disentangle it from my mess.
IT WERE A BIG FISH
STOP LAUGHING, ITS NOT FUNNY
Realizing that my life was in danger from several angry anglers, I cut my line and left the scene of destruction.
Using a conventional reel has now been relegated to the back burner.
I have realized that this form of fishing takes a skill I appear to lack.
Maybe when my notoriety dies down and I can show my face ip public again, Ill have another go.
For the time being, its Alvey side casts for me.
SOB SOB
Valkie, you're too funny! I'm about to concentrate on surf casting, but I'm going to practice, practice, practice on the lake behind my house before I go out and cause trouble for myself and/or others. I also bought "Long Distance Casting", by John Holden, which I haven't yet sunk my teeth into, but I've only had it for two days. I have to finish Mike's chapter on Long Beaches first....
Hi Valkie,
Take solace in the fact that here in southern Africa, where the conventional reel ruled supreme, and spinners were only seen in the hands of occassional fishermen, usually farmers from inland. Conventionals were mastered, and all was going well, even ladies and young kids were seen with long poles, launching sinkers and bait at the surf.
Now the twist in the tail - a couple of years ago, several of the competition associations allowed braid to be used as the main line, and obviously that couldn't be used in such fury as we cast the nylon lines to distance with conventional reel. So, now we are all busy mastering a whole new evolution of surf fishing with spinners and braid, and because of the style of our rods and the composition, we are having to have new rods built to cast our new reels and lines. This evolution hasn't beena great success for everyone, but the majority are going down this route, and actually improving on the distances they are achieving, some are now placing baits out at about 200 metres, and getting some fine fish into the bargain.
This evolution is now spreading to the more social anglers, and they too are getting improved catches, probably purely due to the better bite detection. So, now we are all running around comparing specs on spinners and trying to get even further with our distances.
The point is that while a lot of time is spent on this forum discussing and fine tuning our reels, and pouring loving attention on them, we do miss a very valid point, there is also a lot of technology in the rods which we strap our prized reels to. This technology is never more apparent than in surf fishing, and a lot of long rods sold as 'surf' should really be consigned to the garden to hold up tall plants, as they are absolutely useless on the beach - usually way too soft in action, which is what would appear to be your biggest issue.
Years ago, I was given some advice to do with another sport, but it equally applies to surf casting - 'Go fast, slowly'. It should actually be a very relaxed action that gets you the best performance.
Hope that helps and that the experience hasn't driven you away from the sandy shores.
Cheers from sunny Africa,
Jeri
I here you Jeri;
But my golf game sucks badly as well
One day I might even tell you about the time I put two golfers in hospital in the one day.
Cheers
;D ;D ;D I can't wait
Quote from: valkie on January 14, 2016, 04:06:50 AM
Well, Im back from my Xmas holidays.
I had a very memorable time practicing casting with my conventional reel and long rod.
I have tried larger and smaller weights.
I have tried heavy and lighter lines.
I have even tried praying to my chosen deity.
All to no avail.
Several rolls of line and many naughty words have passed by me in my efforts.
I CAN HEAR YOU GIGGLING OUT THERE.
My most interesting was while on a break wall at Forster.
I believe it will make the news, due to the truly momentous series of events that followed my failed cast.
It all started so well, my first cast was a beautiful cast around 50-60 meters, and not a snangle to be seen.
Everyone around me nodded their heads in awe and recognition of my skill.
My second cast was exactly the opposite.
Im not sure what happened, but somewhere during tghe cast something happened and a clump of line tangled in the runners.
Noting the tangle, my attention to the spool lapsed and it spun unimpeded to a point of impossible entanglement.
Now it gets interesting, the line cast forth to fish, for once did its intended and caught a fish.
The fish, obviously recognizing the severe lack of skill of the angler started swimming up and down the break wall entangling the other anglers lines as I was so busy attempting to fix my mess that I still hadn't noticed the fish fighting on the end of my line.
In time I noted the predicament and tried to bring in my fish by hand, but it was a reasonably large fish.
Now cutting into my fingers with copious amounts of claret flowing from the cuts, I managed to get said fish to the rocks.
Only to be broken off as another angler angrily pulled his line in a vain attempt to disentangle it from my mess.
IT WERE A BIG FISH
STOP LAUGHING, ITS NOT FUNNY
Realizing that my life was in danger from several angry anglers, I cut my line and left the scene of destruction.
Using a conventional reel has now been relegated to the back burner.
I have realized that this form of fishing takes a skill I appear to lack.
Maybe when my notoriety dies down and I can show my face ip public again, Ill have another go.
For the time being, its Alvey side casts for me.
SOB SOB
This is really funny, I took my newly acquired trinidad 40 loaded with 60lb topshot for a practice on a terrible windy day a while ago and caught 2 kite surfers, the one was absolutely furious with me, the other one headed off into the distance trailing some 60lb that I hastily bit off. After that, I had another disaster, I have been enjoying throwing plugs for yellow tail with a newly magged little saltist using braid, it worked so well and the next time I went the fish were actually there, chasing baitfish, they were just getting close enough when the FG knot to the leader neatly unravelled on the cast resulting in my worst worst over wind ever
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w491/capefish_photo/20160103_152059_zpsdlfzlolt.jpg) (http://s1078.photobucket.com/user/capefish_photo/media/20160103_152059_zpsdlfzlolt.jpg.html)
Hi Capefish,
That's what you get for putting braid on a casting multiplier, and not a grinder!!!!!!!! No sympathy - even with magnets, you should know better.
Look at the new Quantum Cabo series PTSE, and the drag ratings, then reconsider how you might fish for yellowtail - they won't stand a chance!!
Cheers from sunny Namibia.
Jeri
Valkie: Stick to it and get yourself a mag reel to practice with for awhile, and practice alone till you get the hag of it. Practice, practice, practice. Hang in there.
Joe
Daiwa's Mangofuge system found on 7ht mag/mag ST reels is extremely tame out of the box...Have never been able to blow one of those reels up, even in a strong headwind and with the reel tuned such that the mag system kicks in later than normal..
Sid's recommendation to lay a piece of tape across the line deep in the spool is a good one...Another thought is the way in which the line gets spooled (thumbed) onto the reel...Next time you reel in your line, try to lay the last 50 yards or so in a coarse criss-cross pattern, rather than having the coils lay side-by-side..
As mentioned, over-runs are the result of line going out faster than the spool will allow...Thus a criss-cross pattern will allow less line to go out per spool revolution, while also preventing the line rom digging into itself..
Chad
Thats really not all that horrific. Just keep working at it. Remember, I've been working at it non stop for 35 years or so and am still learning. Nothing worth doing is easy and gratification isn't instant, ever.
Ron
Quote from: cbar45 on January 15, 2016, 02:31:38 AM
Sid's recommendation to lay a piece of tape across the line deep in the spool is a good one...
As mentioned, over-runs are the result of line going out faster than the spool will allow...Thus a criss-cross pattern will allow less line to go out per spool revolution, while also preventing the line rom digging into itself..
Chad
I'd be glad to take the credit, but that wasn't me that suggested that. But it's a great idea. And over-runs are a result of the spool moving faster than the line goes out, just the opposite of what you wrote, but what I'm sure you meant.
Sid
Sid, yes you are correct, got my words mixed up...I meant to say the spool spins faster than the line, (being towed by the lead/lure), will allow...Oh and it was jcool3 who mentioned the tape trick...I used it effectively a long time ago when learning how to cast conventional...Half and half ulua rod, bronze spool 6/0...That was a bear of a combo for a beginner to learn on, and definitely not what someone starting out today would want to use...Plus side was that the learning curve was so steep, it made casting with just about any other rod/reel combo seem easy..
Chad
I have decided to give it another go.
I purchased an Okuma reel, quite cheap, but with the ability to slow the spool.
I plan to give it heaps and have been practicing in the back yard and seem to be able to cast reasonably consistently.
But all things may go astray when perched on rocks with waves trying to take me swimming.
It may be a few days, but Ill post my success/ failure.
Cheers guys and girls, thanks for the help
Too bad you don't have a teacher near by. It is really easy. A $35 longbeach 65 cast okay once you get the fundamentals down. Hang in there and on one cast maybe the lights will come on and you got it.
Here's a pretty good teacher...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJHhs3xUms8
Quote from: swill88 on January 18, 2016, 06:22:01 PM
Here's a pretty good teacher...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJHhs3xUms8
Excellent advice with wetting you line, that is an important fact on using a open reel. I like the plug he gave all of his sponsors. ;) ;D ;D
Joe
I held off showing the same video just because it did not deal with long distance shore casting. The casts can and most likely will be very different from one another.
If you would like to see a video about casting from a boat there is a very good one out there. Advanced Casting with Frank LoPreste & Randy Toussaint filmed by Inside Sport Fishing if I remember correctly shows several casts that we do here on the left coast from boats. The vid does not get into surf casting but if your looking to see how the pro's do here on a sport boat or private boat this vid is what you should look for.
The cost of the vid will be offset by many hours of practice and several cuss words as you pick out those backlashes. Still you will need to practice but when you see how it should be done for me it makes it easier to duplicate.
Quote from: SoCalAngler on January 19, 2016, 04:53:23 AM
I held off showing the same video just because it did not deal with long distance shore casting. The casts can and most likely will be very different from one another.
If you would like to see a video about casting from a boat there is a very good one out there. Advanced Casting with Frank LoPreste & Randy Toussaint filmed by Inside Sport Fishing if I remember correctly shows several casts that we do here on the left coast from boats. The vid does not get into surf casting but if your looking to see how the pro's do here on a sport boat or private boat this vid is what you should look for.
The cost of the vid will be offset by many hours of practice and several cuss words as you pick out those backlashes. Still you will need to practice but when you see how it should be done for me it makes it easier to duplicate.
I was going to say, this is not exactly distance casting from the shore, it's not going to get you into fish where I live, particularly on a windy day. Do take note of the swinging action though, he is basically simulating an off the ground cast by waiting for the bait to swing back into the rod, John Holden demonstrates this cast very well (he is on Youtube and has an instructional DVD). In shore casting with a multiplier, half the battle is won by using the right tackle, if you use boat gear as shown in this video you are going to struggle your #### off it is as simple as that. You need the reel to match the weight you want to cast (a small reel can cast from light to heavy weights but a big reel needs bigger weights e.g. if you want to use a jig master you should look at 4-6 oz). Similarly a heavy brass spool will add to your woes and dramatically increase the speed at which skin is ripped off your thumb. The other thing is to have the right rod, a floppy, short fiber glass rod is not the best rod to use and just make learning so much more difficult.
Then you need to have the reel in the right position on the rod, either at the bottom (I only fish like this, much easier to bring in a big fish and control line retrieve) or high up, otherwise you can't get proper leverage. I have been through this entire process since I could first afford to buy a multiplier and struggled for years until I finally fished in Namibia with some real pros which opened my eyes and then moved to the coast and met up with experienced shore anglers and then a whole new world opened to me. Choice is yours how long you want to struggle, otherwise just move over to a coffee grinder, but even with that - wrong rod and wrong line = limited distance, but less frustration.
QuoteThen you need to have the reel in the right position on the rod, either at the bottom (I only fish like this, much easier to bring in a big fish and control line retrieve) or high up, otherwise you can't get proper leverage.
I'm a little dense and can't picture having the reel positioned at the bottom of the rod. Are you thumbing the reel with your lower hand?
-steve
Hi Steve,
That is exactly what we are doing. For a right handed person, the left hand now needs to be eductaed to control the reel, while the right hand and arm does the 'dumb work' of motivating the rod and controlling the direction.
The benefits for surf casting with this style are two fold. First the weight of the reel is being motivated downwards, and with the aid of gravity helps achieve a much more positive loading of the rod during the cast, as opposed to the angler trying to push the weight of the reel upwards. Once used to it, it is very comfortable, and allows a lot more control of the power being pulled into the cast.
Secondly, with big fish on long surf rods, trying to stabilise and control where to put the long lower handle (below the reel) on traditional - 'reel up' designs becomes a serious issue.By changing to 'reel down', and using a boat anglers butt pad or rod belt, then the bottom of the rod is easily controlled, and allows the angler to easily fight big fish or sharks. Here in southern Africa, we see this style as near universal, and even kids as young as 6 years old are wearinga rod belt with their fishing, and it doesn't matter which style of reel that you use.
It does seem odd, especially if you are in an environment where everybody fishes 'reel up', but once you try it, and master the technique, you are almost put in the position, that you will never revert to 'reel up' rods. And here I speak from experience, having spent my entire youth fishing lakes and rivers in the UK with long rods with the reel up, but give me a surf rod, and I will now certainly look to have the reel down the bottom. It is the control factor during the fighting of large fish and sharks where the system comes into its own, and the reasoning behind why we are building a lot of rods in southern Africa, and exporting them to customers in places like Australia, as they have a similar 'surf fish control' issue. The side benefit, is that they can now also cast further.
Hope that helps.
Cheers from sunny Africa.
Jeri
That sounds interesting Jeri. I'm going to try it. So, how much rod butt is below the reel? Don't want to hit yourself in the groin with the reel handle :)
This must be for bait fishing only (cast and wait) because the balance must be very top heavy and it would wear you out if throwing lures (cast, retrieve, cast, retrieve)
-steve
Hi Steve,
We leave about 8" below the reel seat to be comfortable for reeling in. The system does actually work well with lure fishing as well. I have 12' light lure rod with a fixed spool reel and braid for casting 3oz jigheads. With a bionic finger to cope with the braid, it casts a mile - well about 135 metres, and with a rod belt it is comfortable, as the rod is naturally held high, so actions can be imparted.
It just looks strange.
Cheers from sunny Africa,
Jeri
Quote from: Jeri on January 19, 2016, 12:11:42 PM
Hi Steve,
We leave about 8" below the reel seat to be comfortable for reeling in. The system does actually work well with lure fishing as well. I have 12' light lure rod with a fixed spool reel and braid for casting 3oz jigheads. With a bionic finger to cope with the braid, it casts a mile - well about 135 metres, and with a rod belt it is comfortable, as the rod is naturally held high, so actions can be imparted.
It just looks strange.
Cheers from sunny Africa,
Jeri
I do this with a multiplier as illustrated before with disastrous consequences :-) I am looking at a grinder Jeri, it's just that our free falling currency has made this now an even more expensive exercise.
Hi Capefish,
We have been through every catalogue and spec sheet on the 'grinders', trying to come up with a series of reels to go with our custom rods. No mentioning the names of all the ones that just simply fail, but being positive, we have found that the Quantum Cabo PTSe series are truly the 'bee's knees'. Awesomely strong drag, correspondingly strong drive and main shaft, relatively simple to work on, and very few aluminium components, especially not in the 'gearbox'.
The big issue for us down here in Africa, is the fact that we 'swim' with our reels - so assuming that no fixed spool reels are waterproof to our standards of usage. Now we need something that won't trap sea water in the gearbox and eat away at all the non-stainless components. The only ones that we have found are the Quantum and the Van Staal. However, the VS is a little to rich for most folks pockets so the Quantum came out on top in our selection.
I'm using the 60 for my 30lb braid work in the surf, and it has a 45lb drag (stronger than a Stella), and I haven't managed to have any problems with it yet. Not the ultimate distance casting reels, but if they developa long spool version, I will buy them like candy. However, every long spool reel that we checked out, was just a glorified 'carp reel', so too weak for long term usage in our environment.
the close second behind the Cabo was the new Finnor Lethal, strong enough drag if you don't abuse it, and a strong enough main shaft - the biggest issue with our reels and usage - we get hooked up on submerged Africa, then pulling for a break against the drag, usually bends the main shaft on most reels - exit one reel, as spares are like chicken's teeth!!!
Just my 2 cents worth.
Cheers
Jeri
Quote from: oc1 on January 19, 2016, 10:24:35 AM
That sounds interesting Jeri. I'm going to try it. So, how much rod butt is below the reel? Don't want to hit yourself in the groin with the reel handle :)
This must be for bait fishing only (cast and wait) because the balance must be very top heavy and it would wear you out if throwing lures (cast, retrieve, cast, retrieve)
-steve
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w491/capefish_photo/20160120_074155_zpst8zqtqpj.jpg) (http://s1078.photobucket.com/user/capefish_photo/media/20160120_074155_zpst8zqtqpj.jpg.html)
There you go, these rods range between 11 and 14 ft
Hi valkie - and im not laughing at you because 25 years ago your sharing my frustrations as I too borrowed my mates level wind real and attempted what you did and ended up with the same result - the first words out of my mouth = ill leave that up to your imagination because what ever you can think of I probably said it . I wont repeat them on here . The only thing I could suggest is disable the level wind and if its has an alloy spool mag it - Start casting heaver weights around 4-5oz - and try not to put too much effort into it - concentrate on techneak and find out whats best for you - every ones different and the hardest part is keeping the cast smooth and knowing when to release the spool with your thumb and feathering the spool edge as your sinker heads for the horizon .
Ill try and post a video the 1st part normal speed last part 1/2 speed - This cast suits me as I have a fused wrist and elbow both on the right side - you can see the sinker hit the water below the white building on the right hand side - between 100 - 110 meters with just a flick with the 975 and the rivers edge is 180 meters across and my rod is 12' Beach Barron - 3oz torpedo sand grabber - 975 - 15lb mainline - 20' 25lb leader.
Rgds
Matt...
(http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/mattman1965/th_a%20penn%20975_zpsmxzbkjab.mp4) (http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad223/mattman1965/a%20penn%20975_zpsmxzbkjab.mp4)
Video
Matt, watch the windows on that building accross from you ;D. Very nice casting ;).
Sal
What Does everybody think of balancing the rod before building it? I think when building up a new rod blank you should first find the balancing point and then center the reel seat at that point. I feel that is most important for a good casting rod.
Joe
I agree Joe and like the balance point to be about three inches in front of the reel. A top-heavy rod will wear you out.
-steve
Quote from: Alto Mare on January 31, 2016, 11:54:11 AM
Matt, watch the windows on that building accross from you ;D. Very nice casting ;).
Sal
Thanks Sal - I think its pretty safe as its 203 meters from where I'm casting from - and the max I can cast is around the 150 meter mark and only time will tell - and as for balance I've never really though about it Joe but I think it dose make sense. ;D
Rgds
Matt...
Quote from: Reel 224 on January 31, 2016, 04:26:35 PM
What Does everybody think of balancing the rod before building it? I think when building up a new rod blank you should first find the balancing point and then center the reel seat at that point. I feel that is most important for a good casting rod.
Joe
Joe,
I have long arms and position the reel where I know it will be most comfortable for me when casting and fighting a fish. If I fiddled around with moving it up or down or adding weight to the butt, balance may improve, but at a loss of comfort and/or casting performance. Imho the fulcrum point at which the reel is mounted has more influence on casting than a bare blank's fulcrum point.
Does the rod and reel as a whole perform well for your style of fishing? If so, then I wouldn't worry much about the balance point unless it was impeding upon my fishing in some way. In fact the very first rod I built has a horrible balance point on paper, (way up above the fore-grip and diamond wrap), but for what I do it fishes well. I never even noticed where it balances until I checked it one day out of curiosity.
In general building for comfort, lightness, and keeping the weight in the upper half down does much to enhance performance. Those characteristics remain constant, unlike a balance point that changes depending on which reel is being used.
Chad
Quote from: cbar45 on February 01, 2016, 03:22:35 AM
Quote from: Reel 224 on January 31, 2016, 04:26:35 PM
What Does everybody think of balancing the rod before building it? I think when building up a new rod blank you should first find the balancing point and then center the reel seat at that point. I feel that is most important for a good casting rod.
Joe
Joe,
I have long arms and position the reel where I know it will be most comfortable for me when casting and fighting a fish. If I fiddled around with moving it up or down or adding weight to the butt, balance may improve, but at a loss of comfort and/or casting performance. Imho the fulcrum point at which the reel is mounted has more influence on casting than a bare blank's fulcrum point.
Does the rod and reel as a whole perform well for your style of fishing? If so, then I wouldn't worry much about the balance point unless it was impeding upon my fishing in some way. In fact the very first rod I built has a horrible balance point on paper, (way up above the fore-grip and diamond wrap), but for what I do it fishes well. I never even noticed where it balances until I checked it one day out of curiosity.
In general building for comfort, lightness, and keeping the weight in the upper half down does much to enhance performance. Those characteristics remain constant, unlike a balance point that changes depending on which reel is being used.
Chad
Chad: The comfort of the rod is important to a point, but tanking into consideration that balance in important also. Finding the center of balance is a good starting point and if you have to adjust from there at least you have a reference point, matching the reel to your rod is important also. IMHO the balance of the rod and reel is like the balance of a good gun in your hand. I'm not an expert on rod building and admit that I have a lot to learn, and I respect your opinion.
Joe
The style of fishing has to be considered too. Balance seems more important in whipping/plugging than in dunking/plunking. I stick lead in the butt of my whipping rods to balance them to a short comfortable handle. Even though it adds weight it feels lighter and causes less fatigue. When you're lazy you notice these things.
-steve
Then, too, there are some anglers that feel their style of fishing actually benefits from a rod that is slightly tip heavy--drop shotting with the rod pointed at the water comes to mind. In this case the weight acts to steady the rod such that the slightest pull on the line by a fish is enough to tip it briskly downwards.
If it's necessary to add a bit of weight for balance, I try to make it an integral part of the rod--a heavy-gauge stainless butt cap on an ulua surf rod for example. On longer whipping rods I will sometimes do a simple decorative wrap below the reel seat, between the split grips. It seems this additional amount of thread and finish is enough to improve the balance. But for me all those variables are secondary to a reel that is positioned to allow for comfortable and proper casting.
While placing the reel seat at the rod's balance point is a start, it certainly won't hurt anything to move it up or down the blank a bit should your test-casting necessitate it. Blank manufacturer's know that reel seat placement will likely vary, so they design a blank to work for multiple reel positions. i.e. Blanks are built such that their walls have adequate support for the reel along an entire section of the bottom half.
Chad
Quote from: Reel 224 on February 01, 2016, 05:21:00 AM
Chad: The comfort of the rod is important to a point, but tanking into consideration that balance in important also. Finding the center of balance is a good starting point and if you have to adjust from there at least you have a reference point, matching the reel to your rod is important also. IMHO the balance of the rod and reel is like the balance of a good gun in your hand. I'm not an expert on rod building and admit that I have a lot to learn, and I respect your opinion.
Joe
Joe,
If you've ever seen a Michigan-style spinning handle, (short rear grip/long fore-grip), that is one that comes very close to a harmony of balance, comfort, and casting performance. With the reel in place, your hand grips the rod just forward of the seat--right at the balance point of the entire set-up.
Chad
Quote from: cbar45 on February 01, 2016, 07:32:48 AM
Quote from: Reel 224 on February 01, 2016, 05:21:00 AM
Chad: The comfort of the rod is important to a point, but tanking into consideration that balance in important also. Finding the center of balance is a good starting point and if you have to adjust from there at least you have a reference point, matching the reel to your rod is important also. IMHO the balance of the rod and reel is like the balance of a good gun in your hand. I'm not an expert on rod building and admit that I have a lot to learn, and I respect your opinion.
Joe
Joe,
If you've ever seen a Michigan-style spinning handle, (short rear grip/long fore-grip), that is one that comes very close to a harmony of balance, comfort, and casting performance. With the reel in place, your hand grips the rod just forward of the seat--right at the balance point of the entire set-up.
Chad
Sounds like your describing a fly rod setup. Ill give an example. An 8' rod med action you are intending to use for bait & plug casting with a open reel (Conventional). Would you balance the rod heavy on the butt end?
Joe
Hi guys,
On the matter of reel seat positioning, I think the greatest aspect for an individual, is the comfort and control that the rod gives that individual. Yesterday a client came in with his wife for a rod, fixed spool reel and to surf fish. We tried several of the traditional heavier designs, and it was obvious that the lengths of the rods were giving her serious problems with the casting. We changed her over to a 12' 3oz rod, and suddenly the whole casting motion got smooth, and she started to achieve distance.
The with another rod, identical to the first, blank the same, rings the same, but with the reel seat positioned down near the butt end, just 8" up, she suddenly started to really achieve distance. The other rod had been built traditional 'surf style', with the reel seat 25" up from the butt end. The simple move from 'reel up' to 'reel down' transformed the rod for her, and her distances were going beyond 80 metres which for someone that had only started learning to cast that afternoon, was pretty good.
The point I would look to make, is to try and avoid convensions and rules, as they restrict the development of ideas, especially in rod building. Obviously the aspect above really only applies in this case because the rod was long, but it is equally relavent; as you need to consider the performance of the finished product in the hands of the individual, and what is good for one, might be a disaster for another.
Cheers from sunny Africa,
Jeri
I have been over here casting with the ulua fisherman for a couple weeks and ripping some long cast with big Newells and long beefy sticks. These are pretty much standard set up that I have I see the most of but there is another style. If you look up Century rods over in UK those guys have the reel down by the butt and they can really rip some mean cast. The videos are impressive.
Quote from: Newell Nut on February 02, 2016, 07:21:10 AM
I have been over here casting with the ulua fisherman for a couple weeks and ripping some long cast with big Newells and long beefy sticks. These are pretty much standard set up that I have I see the most of but there is another style. If you look up Century rods over in UK those guys have the reel down by the butt and they can really rip some mean cast. The videos are impressive.
Not just Century, 99.9% of people in Southern Africa fish with reel at bottom with multiplier set-ups and a lot use the same system with spinning reels. It is difficult to explain enough what a big difference putting the reel at the bottom makes and how much easier it is to handle big baits, big casts and big fish that way. Especially with a trigger winch. Throwing plugs is a pleasure. I am totally boggled when I see a 12+ foot surf rod with a long butt section sticking out and always wonder how uncomfortable it must be to fish with something like that. As Jeri recommends, challenge convention and try it for yourself.
Quote from: Reel 224 on February 01, 2016, 01:44:00 PM
Quote from: cbar45 on February 01, 2016, 07:32:48 AM
Quote from: Reel 224 on February 01, 2016, 05:21:00 AM
Chad: The comfort of the rod is important to a point, but tanking into consideration that balance in important also. Finding the center of balance is a good starting point and if you have to adjust from there at least you have a reference point, matching the reel to your rod is important also. IMHO the balance of the rod and reel is like the balance of a good gun in your hand. I'm not an expert on rod building and admit that I have a lot to learn, and I respect your opinion.
Joe
Joe,
If you've ever seen a Michigan-style spinning handle, (short rear grip/long fore-grip), that is one that comes very close to a harmony of balance, comfort, and casting performance. With the reel in place, your hand grips the rod just forward of the seat--right at the balance point of the entire set-up.
Chad
Sounds like your describing a fly rod setup. Ill give an example. An 8' rod med action you are intending to use for bait & plug casting with a open reel (Conventional). Would you balance the rod heavy on the butt end?
Joe
It's a two-handed spinning rod that is cast as you normally would, but fished with one hand held above the reel rather than at the reel seat.The following examples as seen on RBO's photo album were built by Ross Pearson. The way he explained it to me is that these float-fishing rods are typically long, and held in the hand for quite a while. Thus a fly-rod style grip with the reel as counterweight helps to combat fatigue.
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/7949839.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/7949839.jpg.html)
I brought up Michigan-style handles for the following reasons:
1.They are examples of a setup built to be held and fished right at--or very close to--its balance point.
2.They are examples of a setup which uses one of its integral parts (the reel) as a balancing counterweight.
The balance point of a blank, and the balance point of a completed rod with reel strapped on, are two different variables.
To use the example you gave, suppose I found the balance point of the 8' casting rod blank to be 14" from the butt. I go ahead with gluing on the reel seat at that point and wrapping the guides. Upon casting the completed rod however, I find that my hands are set too closely together to allow full extension of my lead elbow during the cast. Furthermore, I find that the rod seems a little tip-heavy working poppers with my new Super Surfcaster titanium reel. "But why?" I think to myself. "I used the exact balance point so it shouldn't feel this way."
In reality, what happened is that the balance point changed as soon as I wrapped the guides and strapped on my new light-weight reel. This balance of the completed rod with reel attached is more crucial than that of the bare blank--akin to the balance of a completed rifle versus that of just the stock.
Now suppose the situation was the same, but my reel and guides were afixed only temporarily with tape. I would then only need a few minutes to re-tape my reel to another point on the blank, not the balance point, but a point which I subsequently find allows me to cast comfortably and with maximum distance. Satisfied with these results, I can next tackle the task of balancing the rod such that it doesn't feel so tip-heavy working poppers. Perhaps this might be something as simple as using different guides, or switching to a full grip rather than split grips. If it was a spinning setup I may consider trading in my Super Surfcaster reel for the heft of a tried-and-true Penn Spinfisher...;)
Of course, there are many more methods varying in degrees of complexity, but to sum things up:
A rod with a comfortably-positioned reel seat can later be balanced and perform beautifully; A rod with an uncomfortable reel seat that hinders performance will be just that--even though it was built with care. Figuring out balance per applicafion is important, and imho best done with a temporarily complete setup on which other variables have already been worked out.
Chad
Chad: Thank you for your advice, it is well taken and I will take your advice with the next build I am presently working on. As a matter of fact, after finding the balance point of this 8' blank I knew I couldn't use the point as a center point for the reel seat. So I know i would have to rethink my theory of blank balance ;D I guess I put my foot in my mouth with this one. :-[
Joe
Joe, no harm done. Finding the balance point of a blank is still useful if you're building a panfish pole.
Fine tuning reel placement to suit your own needs and preferences puts the "custom" in custom rods.
New ideas and theories--even though they may not pan out--are the wheels that move any craft or hobby forwards.
Chad
That's part of the reason I do not use reel seats. A rod remains much more versatile without one.
-steve
Doing reel well guys.
Went fishing yesterday and used an overhead reel.
Everything was going along swimmingly, casting just nice, getting distance and only a couple of small tangles.
Then I caught the fish.
A 60 cm groper.
Now it put up a serious fight, cheating using rocks to give me a hard time, but eventually I got the baby in.
At some stage during this little battle, the level wind gear had decided to loose a few teeth.
Cheap reel, cheap plastc gearing, but for those who know the reason, it was to perfect my casting technique with a less than perfect bearing filled spool.
The next, and last cast, was a beauty, the line fed off the reel for a good 50-60 meters, perfect arc, wonderful cast.
The bait was hit almost as it hit the water, and the fish ran.
I started winding, but something jammed.
I watched as the line fed off the spool at a great rate of notts, so I tried winding it on again, nothing.
Quick as a flash I grabbed the line and dropped the rod with the intention of hand landing the fish.
NOTE TO SELF
Dont try and bring in a running fish on 30 lb line by hand.
Much blood and 300 meters of line later, I gave up and cut the line.
Now I have to go back to the Penn reel and try to learn casting on a reel far far too good and which line flies off the spool.
That is once my hands heal.
This fishing game is starting to become dangerious, and thats not even mentioning the waves that tried to embrace me and take me swimming.
That is, honestly, why I don't like levelwinds. Just to much crud that can break. BZ on the groper.
Ron
Quote from: cbar45 on February 02, 2016, 12:03:07 PM
Quote from: Reel 224 on February 01, 2016, 01:44:00 PM
Quote from: cbar45 on February 01, 2016, 07:32:48 AM
Quote from: Reel 224 on February 01, 2016, 05:21:00 AM
Chad: The comfort of the rod is important to a point, but tanking into consideration that balance in important also. Finding the center of balance is a good starting point and if you have to adjust from there at least you have a reference point, matching the reel to your rod is important also. IMHO the balance of the rod and reel is like the balance of a good gun in your hand. I'm not an expert on rod building and admit that I have a lot to learn, and I respect your opinion.
Joe
Joe,
THose are light tackle rigs, that mid positioned reel seat is fine for that application, but not great for heavy applications
If you've ever seen a Michigan-style spinning handle, (short rear grip/long fore-grip), that is one that comes very close to a harmony of balance, comfort, and casting performance. With the reel in place, your hand grips the rod just forward of the seat--right at the balance point of the entire set-up.
Chad
Sounds like your describing a fly rod setup. Ill give an example. An 8' rod med action you are intending to use for bait & plug casting with a open reel (Conventional). Would you balance the rod heavy on the butt end?
Joe
It's a two-handed spinning rod that is cast as you normally would, but fished with one hand held above the reel rather than at the reel seat.The following examples as seen on RBO's photo album were built by Ross Pearson. The way he explained it to me is that these float-fishing rods are typically long, and held in the hand for quite a while. Thus a fly-rod style grip with the reel as counterweight helps to combat fatigue.
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/unchained_colors/Mobile%20Uploads/7949839.jpg) (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/unchained_colors/media/Mobile%20Uploads/7949839.jpg.html)
I brought up Michigan-style handles for the following reasons:
1.They are examples of a setup built to be held and fished right at--or very close to--its balance point.
2.They are examples of a setup which uses one of its integral parts (the reel) as a balancing counterweight.
The balance point of a blank, and the balance point of a completed rod with reel strapped on, are two different variables.
To use the example you gave, suppose I found the balance point of the 8' casting rod blank to be 14" from the butt. I go ahead with gluing on the reel seat at that point and wrapping the guides. Upon casting the completed rod however, I find that my hands are set too closely together to allow full extension of my lead elbow during the cast. Furthermore, I find that the rod seems a little tip-heavy working poppers with my new Super Surfcaster titanium reel. "But why?" I think to myself. "I used the exact balance point so it shouldn't feel this way."
In reality, what happened is that the balance point changed as soon as I wrapped the guides and strapped on my new light-weight reel. This balance of the completed rod with reel attached is more crucial than that of the bare blank--akin to the balance of a completed rifle versus that of just the stock.
Now suppose the situation was the same, but my reel and guides were afixed only temporarily with tape. I would then only need a few minutes to re-tape my reel to another point on the blank, not the balance point, but a point which I subsequently find allows me to cast comfortably and with maximum distance. Satisfied with these results, I can next tackle the task of balancing the rod such that it doesn't feel so tip-heavy working poppers. Perhaps this might be something as simple as using different guides, or switching to a full grip rather than split grips. If it was a spinning setup I may consider trading in my Super Surfcaster reel for the heft of a tried-and-true Penn Spinfisher...;)
Of course, there are many more methods varying in degrees of complexity, but to sum things up:
A rod with a comfortably-positioned reel seat can later be balanced and perform beautifully; A rod with an uncomfortable reel seat that hinders performance will be just that--even though it was built with care. Figuring out balance per applicafion is important, and imho best done with a temporarily complete setup on which other variables have already been worked out.
Chad
Valkie: If you can find a Penn Mag 10 it is a level wind with steal gears and very good to start on. You can pick one up on E-Bay for $50.00 less and prats are available from Scott's if you need the. There is a thread here started by Sal on the reel.
Joe
Quote from: valkie on February 03, 2016, 03:56:37 AM
Doing reel well guys.
Went fishing yesterday and used an overhead reel.
Everything was going along swimmingly, casting just nice, getting distance and only a couple of small tangles.
Then I caught the fish.
A 60 cm groper.
Now it put up a serious fight, cheating using rocks to give me a hard time, but eventually I got the baby in.
At some stage during this little battle, the level wind gear had decided to loose a few teeth.
Cheap reel, cheap plastc gearing, but for those who know the reason, it was to perfect my casting technique with a less than perfect bearing filled spool.
The next, and last cast, was a beauty, the line fed off the reel for a good 50-60 meters, perfect arc, wonderful cast.
The bait was hit almost as it hit the water, and the fish ran.
I started winding, but something jammed.
I watched as the line fed off the spool at a great rate of notts, so I tried winding it on again, nothing.
Quick as a flash I grabbed the line and dropped the rod with the intention of hand landing the fish.
NOTE TO SELF
Dont try and bring in a running fish on 30 lb line by hand.
Much blood and 300 meters of line later, I gave up and cut the line.
Now I have to go back to the Penn reel and try to learn casting on a reel far far too good and which line flies off the spool.
That is once my hands heal.
This fishing game is starting to become dangerious, and thats not even mentioning the waves that tried to embrace me and take me swimming.
Good job valkie! Equipment failure isn't your fault! At least your on fish!