I have a (edit: no need to attack a brand this is more about the concept) (7'6" fast taper 10-20# line 0.5-1.25 oz lure), and I spent much of my young life not being able afford a (edited), while simultaneously thinking they were pretty freakin sweet rods whose quality justified the price. Well I got this one because i had picked up a used one super cheap from the previous generation. A guide broke on my first use, so they sent me a new rod on warranty. And maybe it's my fault for being so excited that my expectations became unrealistic. And it didn't arrive until a few days after i had built my first custom rod, so what a well laid out (for a beginner builder) rod feels like became the basis of comparison. And quite frankly I'm disappointed.
For a $200 rod I expected a lot more. And it's quite clear to me that this rod was designed to be eye catching on the shelf more than it was designed to be a precision fishing instrument. For one, these non-fuji guides are HUGE, they don't really line up with anything, and they aren't spaced to have the line track the blank under load even slightly, and you can see the line bunching up under the first guide on a cast, and quite frankly i have $30 rods that cast better. Had I paid full price I would be very upset.
Just comparing factory rod to factory rod, my $100 star rod (stellar light fast taper) is a way better rod at half the price. Better guides, better cork, was actually built on spine not 120° off, line tracks the blank really well under bending load, actual weight of rod is wayyyyy lighter, and I have no reason to consider messing with guide placement because line flows great and it already casts like a monster.
So since I've only used it twice I'm honestly considering trying to sell it for $150 and using that money to build a rod that'll be 10x better. For that price I could get a 10' black hole suzuki special blank, Fuji reel seat and KL alconite guides, aaaand decent cork. And it'll be assembled in the USA not Mexico.
Am I being ridiculous or is this a reasonable complaint/plan?
You are seeking validation to a question already answered in your head....you will not, at this point, ever feel good about the $200 you spent. I'd try to return it for at least a credit, or do as you say....we all have bought pretty baubles that underwhelmed. If YOU build a custom, you picked the parts and built it, so like it or hate, it's on you. If it performs to expectation and catches fish, it's rewarding. And I'm great with that.
hecho en Mexico... named for rod-building theories/practices, after too many Mojito's :o
in short yes, you might by now be totally spoiled, there is no cure for that amigo.
just take into account that some rods are make focusing in casting, others more in strength, others in weight savings, etc thats why you find a $30 dlls rod casting better than an $200 Inshore rod, different materials, different specs, etc.
other thing to take into consideration is that only someone that knows a bit of rodbuiliding will notice those details you are mentioning, the rest of the 98% of the fishermen will only care abou the big shiny BRAND letters and the specs on the rod.
after I started to get into rodbuilding more seriously I have gone to FredHall show few times but I "saw" the booths with custom rods in a totally different way than in my previous visits, the 1st times that I saw those booths with custom rods I wanted them all LOL, all where full of colors and shiny with good guides, colored reelseats, etc but in my last few visits I noticed a lot of blems or mistakes on the epoxy job, guides seemed to dont be good quality or the wrong selection for the blank, color combinations on the guide wrap were F.UGLY and thread work was nothing impressive but still you couldn't found any of those rods for less than $400 dlls price tag, even my kids told me that my custom rods were 2x better than those, I dont know if that true but I can tell the difference between those and mines was on the details on the build and pretty sure the labor on those rods was at lest 65% of the cost or more.
Quote from: philaroman on April 13, 2021, 05:16:24 PM
hecho en Mexico... named for rod-building theories/practices, after too many Mojito's :o
We dont drink Mojitos in Mexico, thats a drink from Cuba
but you can switch Mojitos in your sentence for "Tequilas" and that will work.
nothing wrong with "Hecho en Mexico" Stamp ;D ;D
Pretty work, Alex! One day I will learn how to do that alternating thread in the banding :)
Ha, just wait until you build a few more and you'll think your first one was junk too!
Quote from: MarkT on April 13, 2021, 06:05:42 PM
Ha, just wait until you build a few more and you'll think your first one was junk too!
I concur
Quote from: steelfish on April 13, 2021, 05:38:54 PM
Quote from: philaroman on April 13, 2021, 05:16:24 PM
hecho en Mexico... named for rod-building theories/practices, after too many Mojito's :o
We dont drink Mojitos in Mexico, thats a drink from Cuba
but you can switch Mojitos in your sentence for "Tequilas" and that will work.
nothing wrong with "Hecho en Mexico" Stamp ;D ;D
I know Mojitos aren't from Mexico but you don't drink Mojitos in Mexico? You'd pour it out because it isn't a Margarita? How about drink the Mojito then ask for a shot of Tequila! Mojito, Hurricane, Mai Tai, Margarita... I'd drink them all, and have! My favorite hecho en Mexico product is Pacifico!
See, there was a method to my madness. I built my first one as a purely functional piece. Since I never tried to make it pretty, i didn't fail.
Nothing wrong with "Hecho en Mexico" i just like stuff built in my own country a bit better.
Quote from: MarkT on April 13, 2021, 06:11:53 PM
I know Mojitos aren't from Mexico but you don't drink Mojitos in Mexico? You'd pour it out because it isn't a Margarita? How about drink the Mojito then ask for a shot of Tequila! Mojito, Hurricane, Mai Tai, Margarita... I'd drink them all, and have! My favorite hecho en Mexico product is Pacifico!
well, I have never ordered a mojito on a bar, of course you can find it on every bar in Mexico and USA, but it didnt matched with the Hecho en Mexico = Mojito. if you want a Hecho en Mexico stamp match with the drink the best one is Tequila.
but Im not a drinker person, so I cannot expand in this topic here that much , not really much into the thousands of drink you can have on a bar as maitain, sexon the beach, medias de seda (velvet socks?), etc, I used to drink more tequila (direct on a shot glass) than beer, then more beer than tequila, now Im more into wine than beer, my fav local beer are "Dos equis" XX lager and Tecate Beer and fav wine any Merlot from the local Baja "Guadalupe Valley" wineries.
Jason, yes, you are spoiled buddy, time to sell all your factoy rods and fill the rod rack with customs, at least thats my plan but friends and customers dont left me any time to build my owns, I only have 2 customs, 2 rebuilt from factory rods and still 10 rods to sell and replace with a custom rod, Im talking about goto rods.
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on April 13, 2021, 06:25:37 PM
Nothing wrong with "Hecho en Mexico" i just like stuff built in my own country a bit better.
LOL, not need to explain buddy, I totally understand, just didnt wanted to miss an opportunity to show off my last fishing rod wrap. ;D :P
on a curious note, only guys living in USA had asked me to put a "Hecho en Mexico" stamp on their fishing rods, go figure!
Alex's Mex Customs are beautiful & I'm sure later Mex-Croix will be (is?) fine, too
...but I never heard anything good about "first-pancake" Mojo's & see plenty resold "barely used"
$150 asking price might be too optimistic
One needs to remember where the Mojo line lies in the hierarchy of St. Croix rods. They may run close to $200 but they're pretty far down in the quality list. They're clearly no Legend Extreme, Elite, Avid, Victory, or even Premiere, in my mind. Just about every rod manufacturer has varying lines & qualities. That's why most high quality rods these days are use specific. What works for a bass fisherman is comparable to a pool cue or baseball bate to a finesse walleye enthusiast.
Alex, why get rid of them when you could just heavily modify them? That's my plan. I've already sold or given away just about everything not worth rebuilding. In fact it has already begun. My next conquest is to turn my 11' penn prevail into a Jeri-inspired African style surf rod.
First pancake? Never heard that one. To be clear this is the 2021 model. But yeah I'm reminded of the first round of Chinese penn reels. The SSm and SSg Garbage. Subsequent versions were better. Maybe I'll consider just rebuilding it, the blank itself isn't bad. Call it an "ain't croix."
Just saying a $200 rod shouldn't suck, regardless where it falls on a brand's hierarchy. This will likely be my last st croix.
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on April 13, 2021, 08:11:36 PM
...I've already sold ...
there you have it, thats what I mean, not necessary that I NEED to sell my 5.8ft XXH trevala, heck I can rebuild it but it works really good as its right now, but I prefer to build me another jigging rod outta a blackhole blank or Zeus UC blank with my grips, reelseat and guides of choice.
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on April 13, 2021, 08:11:36 PM
..... My next conquest is to turn my 11' penn prevail into a Jeri-inspired African style surf rod.
just dont forget that some results are more notorious on changes over a good quality blanks as the ones Jeri use than on an economic factory rod that just had the guides changed, but Im with you on this buddy, go for it, I might change the guides also on a 9ft tsunami airwave I bought many years ago, it has some BIG and heavy fuji Hardloy guides, I have plans to install fuji KR concept on it KW guides and single foot on running guides on it, but that plan is way too low on my long list of pending jobs right now.
IMO if you are going to change everything on a factory rod and just leave the blank that you are not particularly attached to or its not that great quality to install $100- 150 worth of new components on it, you better off selling it and build a brand new rod with new tech and not that expensive as some out there, if its for economic or learning purposes then go for it, my two main reason for restoring rods.
the great thing about rod building is that you can actually do whatever you want to do with your rod without following any rules, while many guys just have the option to pay premium to use premium rods or pay what they can pay and look for a rod that adjust to the wallet, ooh and be happy with the length or components of the factory rod.
there is an old saying in the rodbuilding community that says: Friends dont let friends fish factory rods
more because of the feeling to use something completely build by you than actually for the choice of blank or components over a factory rod.
I have to agree...when you get into 200 buck range, I expect quality; maybe the name markets the price point but this ain't a sweater with a color that will be out of style next fall....it should last. RARELY do I buy new equipment...just like a vehicle, I'll let someone else test drive and I buy higher quality at a discount after. The kicker is, if you're in a position to wait around for a deal. I bit ago, I picked up two Penn International bent-butt 80 IGFA rods, about a season old, for $125 apiece. I should've bought the whole stand- looked like someone with a sporty needed quick cash and pawned off the whole set. Point being, I got a six hundred dollar rod (2) for less than I would pay for the butt, if I were building from scratch.
Let us know how the South African conversion goes....in some cases nice blanks have crappy guides and just need a makeover.
Alex, if you get around to cutting off the Fuji's, if they be Hardloy, I'll buy them from you. They are great for making durable pitch rods in an excited cockpit.
Let's be clear I don't expect to achieve Jeri-like results or quality. I just wanna play with the concept. And you can't get a heavy 11' non-noodle graphite blank for less than 120 anywhere, this rod cost 90 and it was a gift. I spent 22 on the KLH guide set and 10 on the seat. I'll probably paracord and shrink wrap the handle and I already have a ton of paracord. I'll probably be $50 + time into this conversion.
And if it doesn't work out I'll move the reel seat up.
Quote from: thorhammer on April 13, 2021, 10:25:05 PM
Alex, if you get around to cutting off the Fuji's, if they be Hardloy, I'll buy them from you. They are great for making durable pitch rods in an excited cockpit.
how time and new materials changes the way to see the things, I must say that few years ago the main reason I went to pick that Tsunami rod over a Penn or shimano rod, it was because it was cheaper and IT HAD Fuji Hardloy guides and fuji reelseat, go figure!! they are really good rod guides that are less prone to crack on a hit or fall than more expensive Alconite or Sic material but much better than alum oxide, they also look good!!
for the kind of fish I can catch on surf fishing on local waters that rod is excellent the way it is, If I can cast 15-20yds more I will still catch the same kind of fish, thats the main reason its at the bottom on my list of pending jobs, but If change the guides I will let you know.
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on April 13, 2021, 03:28:47 PM
I got this one because i had picked up a used one super cheap from the previous generation.
There seems to be a big gap in quality between the two generations for some reason. I also have one from the previous generation (purple-ish color) and it's been a solid performer, I've caught plenty of stripers & Halibut on it, even pulled in a 50lb stingray with it.
I've looked at the new ones, wasn't impressed and heard not so good things about them, even though they have good reviews.
A number of things coming from this thread that perhaps warrant comment.
Have found that the 'person' aspect of a custom built rod, rather than country of origin has more significance. Where or the nationality of the custom rod builder has little to do with the final outcome. I'm an Englishman (historically not favoured by South Africans) living in Namibia (considered a poor backward country by South Africans), yet have a queue outside my workshop of South Africans wanting my products over custom rods from their own country. Go figure?
Nearly all rod building companies in the major league build to appropriate sections of the market place, with products priced to suit those market positions. We see a lot of main manufacturers building only their very top line surf rods with Fuji guides, then working down the price range of guides and components for lower spec products, until you get to the very serious cheapies. It is just an element of market forces, though perhaps to a few a poor portrayal of a cherished or revered name.
Jason, I'd be very circumspect of a rebuilt Prevail, while they suit the market place they were intended for, they are very soft in nature, and distinctly 'C' curve, from the few that I have seen over here. The issue is that you can't load them adequately in the cast to get serious distance, they are just too flexible down a lot of the length - hence 'C' curve.
Just my 2 cents.
Cheers from a very hot Africa - 41 degrees C today!!!
Quote from: Jeri on April 14, 2021, 01:10:08 AM
Jason, I'd be very circumspect of a rebuilt Prevail, while they suit the market place they were intended for, they are very soft in nature, and distinctly 'C' curve, from the few that I have seen over here. The issue is that you can't load them adequately in the cast to get serious distance, they are just too flexible down a lot of the length - hence 'C' curve.
Just my 2 cents.
Cheers from a very hot Africa - 41 degrees C today!!!
Nationality has never been the problem. Mass production and decline in quality are the problems
Interesting you say these are a C curve, I didn't think so. This thing feels like a very long broomstick, and calls itself a fast taper. The stuff you build is stiffer than this? Also I believe I remember you saying you're building rods to throw 10-16oz when this thing is only labeled for 6oz.
This brings up an interesting question. Does your style of build not work with a floppier rod, or is it just not gonna reach its full potential?
Stay cool down there. That sounds brutal.
It sounds like what you have there is a rod designed to catch fishermen first, with fish a secondary consideration.
That's more often the case with lures, but does happen occasionally with other equipment.
Some of my better gear is fairly plain to look at. But has high end components and a good blank underneath. Only the very highest of high end seems to combine aesthetics AND performance.
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on April 14, 2021, 02:01:43 AM
Nationality has never been the problem. Mass production and decline in quality are the problems
Interesting you say these are a C curve, I didn't think so. This thing feels like a very long broomstick, and calls itself a fast taper. The stuff you build is stiffer than this? Also I believe I remember you saying you're building rods to throw 10-16oz when this thing is only labeled for 6oz.
This brings up an interesting question. Does your style of build not work with a floppier rod, or is it just not gonna reach its full potential?
Stay cool down there. That sounds brutal.
Quality is defined by the bean counters at whatever company is doing the purchasing. Built 'down' to a price.
We build on a whole range of blanks, the majority being on 'J' curve, from 2-3oz right up to heavy weights designed for 8oz sinkers + bait. Some of the blanks are stiffer for class than others depending on the what we are proposing as the user group. A full competition level 6oz rod is going to be stiffer than a social angler 6oz rod - to accommodate the users skills and strengths - designing rods for individual people, not for a mass market stereotype.
The design concept we use will work on 'C' curve blanks, though have found that most of the far east mass produced blanks rarely use some of the higher priced higher strength carbons in their composition, which is possibly where any issue might come in. Our standard 6oz blanks will take a test curve (bend to 90 degrees) with anything from 8-17kgs (18-38lbs) - depending on which style we are building.
You'll have to find out the hard way whether it 'works', which will be dependant on what you expect from the rod at the end of the day.
Cooling forecast for today - just 38 degrees ............ :)
Jason, another aspect to consider is the 'rating' that someone has placed on your blank. We have a full tournament class blank rated for 6oz, and every time we build one for a client, they almost exclusively use a 7oz sinker + bait with it, it is that powerful and local casting styles just can't generate the power needed to compress the blank, yet on the tournament field, the blank has recorded over 270 metres with just a 6oz sinker. By the same token, I have a personal blank that I rated as 6oz, and used it as such for a long time with great effect, yet more recently with the onset of arthritis, I'm finding I get a huge increase in distance with just a 5oz sinker and a more refined casting technique.
Mass produced rods are renowned for being optimistic in their ratings the higher numbers convince the purchaser they are getting something better. Perhaps a 5oz sinker with the Prevail might be an option worth testing when you tape on the guides and do the testing before the build.
Wow, Alex, beautiful work!
Spoiled....no, more like you are learning what you like and what works for you.
Sadly "New and Improved" is a euphemism for same #### but less of it in a new package and/or cheeper product at a higher price.
After test casting into a tree a couple times to try out the KL-H guides on the prevail, yes it's definitely more of a C curve. I hadnt tested it against an immovable object yet. Against some small sharks it had seemed like a stiff J curve.
I decided I'm gonna leave the reel seat in the stock position for now. I've also been musing about the idea of giving it 2 reel seats, one low and one high. It would be absurd so i probably wouldn't actually do it. But I've been musing. I do intend to tape on the reel in the low position and throw a few casts to see if I like it better. It's a 2 piece with all guides now on the top section (lowest is now currently 150 cm above reel seat) so I can change the reel seat later without unwrapping the guides.
So the line doesn't touch the blank at all on casting, but it slaps it like my mom when i talked back as a kid on the retrieval. I assume that's of minimal concern.
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on April 17, 2021, 01:33:54 PM
After test casting into a tree a couple times to try out the KL-H guides on the prevail, yes it's definitely more of a C curve. I hadnt tested it against an immovable object yet. Against some small sharks it had seemed like a stiff J curve.
I decided I'm gonna leave the reel seat in the stock position for now. I've also been musing about the idea of giving it 2 reel seats, one low and one high. It would be absurd so i probably wouldn't actually do it. But I've been musing. I do intend to tape on the reel in the low position and throw a few casts to see if I like it better. It's a 2 piece with all guides now on the top section (lowest is now currently 150 cm above reel seat) so I can change the reel seat later without unwrapping the guides.
So the line doesn't touch the blank at all on casting, but it slaps it like my mom when i talked back as a kid on the retrieval. I assume that's of minimal concern.
Just what set of KL-H guides are you using?
150cm from the reel seems close, but nothing to be causing the line slap on retrieval. Just spent the day fishing a competition in the surf, with a rod set at 210cm from the reel to the first KL-H25, no line slap what so ever. Never notice slap on retrieve in all the time I have been working on this scheme.
In the instance of your reel seat position, a lot of UK surf rods are built with a full heat shrink handle all the way up the lower section, and then they use 'Coasters' as the mechanism for holding the reel in place, so they just fix the reel on anywhere over the shrink grip.
www.guidesnblanks.com/p/coaster_clips or www.guidesnblanks.com/p/deluxe_coaster_clips
That's not a bad idea. I was thinking maybe something Tennessee style as well.
I am using a set that has a 25, 16, 12, 8 i think, then 6 6's. Black frame alconite if it matters.
So I'm pretty happy with the casting, i was throwing a tennis ball 90 yds with a cross breeze. I expected to go test cast it and see something needing to move. But there's no bunching and no line slap on casting, and it's pretty quiet. What are the odds I got it right on the first try? I don't wanna be lazy but it seems fine how I put it? I'll try to get some pics.
On a 14', we are using 25H, 16H, 10H, 8M, then KT8, with spacing 14", 12", 10" & 8" for the rest. For 50lb braid.
On a 12', we are using 20H, 16H, 10H, 6M then KT6. For 35lb braid.
The above are quite tame sizes, for real performance we opt for LC16M, LC10, LC8, then a string of KT8, and that is for 50lb braid.
Be aware for future builds, and possible repairs you might need to do to this rod, the black painted on stainless steel frames from Fuji are discontinued, as are polished stainless steel. They will no longer be making them in those frame finishes.
I have only looked and held a St. Croix rod never owned one. I just can't bring myself to pay that much for a rod. I am more into reels but have my limit on what I would spend there as well. I really like the Fenwick Eagle rods, the action and the way they cast for the price are hard to beat in my opinion. I could see paying more for a customized rod. I think if a customized rod is superior to any name brand I would prefer it anyway.
Jeri, you put em that far apart? My reducers are more like 6-8" apart. I'll play with some wider spacing and see how I likenit. And I kinda assumed they were getting discontinued. That explains why ive gotten them for so cheap. So what now, gunmetal only?
I've fondled many fenwick eagle rods. Haven't brought any up to the cash register yet but they seem like good tackle. :) I'm not sure I'll be buying any more new factory rods though: I'm spoiled.
Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on April 18, 2021, 02:03:34 PM
Jeri, you put em that far apart? My reducers are more like 6-8" apart. I'll play with some wider spacing and see how I likenit. And I kinda assumed they were getting discontinued. That explains why ive gotten them for so cheap. So what now, gunmetal only?
Squeezing up the 'rapid transition' guides can induce a choking area to the line flow. The use of small eyed guides is already a benefit over big eyed guides, so to reverse the gain is liek going backwards after going forwards. Just our take on what is happening.
Nobody seems to wanna buy the st croix. Should I just rebuild it? I figure I already have the guides. I really want that black hole blank but I don't have the funds to back up that desire.
i think whatever you do with that st croix is secondary, sounds to me that what you've learned from all of it about your own desires and abilities is worth a lot more than 200.00. i think you should build your rods, you can set them up for your arm length and casting style, NOBODY else can do that.
The st croix is sold for 130. That's a 10' Suzuki special and guides. I already have cork and reel seat. Game on.