My apologies in advance if this has been beaten to death. I would appreciate being pointed in the right direction for more info.
A buddy has asked me to take a look at a 3/0 H Special Senator 112H he got in trade with one of his tenants and the star drag does not adjust. It had dacron backing with steel wire line all on a shiny metal spool.
I have it all apart and it looks like it does not have any ball bearings at all. The schematic diagram lists 26-155 RS bearing and 40-60 LS bearing but neither looks like it could be considered a modern bearing. Is this the correct way the reel is set up? Am I correct that this is why a person might "convert" this reel, in other words, replace the stone-age "bearings" with actual ball bearings? I believe I saw a kit at MysticParts that had a whole bunch of parts including ball bearings.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing that you don't simply drop bearings in, but have to replace the gears and sleeve and drag stack, etc. in order to make such a change. Hence, most sane people would conclude that it's easier/cheaper/more logical to just purchase a different reel and service this one but keep it in its original configuration.
Bear with me, I'm a beginner,
John
The 112h uses bushings. I don't know of a way to covert it to ball bearings. Penn refers to their bushing models as having bearings but that is not ball bearings. Bushings & ball bearings are both termed as bearings. What you probably are refering to as a reel with either bushings or ball bearings is a Jigmaster. The 500 & 501 use bushings while the 505 & 506 use ball bearings. They are different reels but both are called Jigmasters. As for the 112h there is not much available to covert it to something else. It's a good reel as is. Rudy
Rudy is right, John —
Penn calls these bearings — but they are more accurately bushings.
They were called bearings because they "supported and beared" the spool ends in proper alignment.
No reasonable way to change them out.
We need to remember that these have worked for nearly 100 years in Ocean City, Penn, and nearly every other conventional reel —
So, just clean them up — and lube with good oil such as TSI321, or similar — they will be good for another 50 years.
If they are rough, or distorted from heavy trolling with wire line — just install a couple of new ones. The parts are readily available and inexpensive. I generally replace the bushings on an older Penn — if it exhibits the slightest sign of wear, slop, or binding. No comebacks — and a happy client.
Best,
Fred
Thanks for the responses. I think I'll just clean and lube everything and button it up after I ask the owner if he wants to invest the $15 to replace the bushings and still end up with a reel that has some significant weaknesses and limitations.
Personally, I'd not use this reel for fishing so I wouldn't even put the 15 bucks into it. Thanks again for education me!
John
That's a great reel. Go for the $15. Dominick
If you don't think that a 112H is worth a $15 investment then you can send me all the complete 112H's you find & I'll give you $15 each. It's definetly a good reel & worth repairing & using.
Quote from: jzumi on January 22, 2019, 12:19:22 AM
a reel that has some significant weaknesses and limitations.
Ball bearings are much more likely to fail than bushings.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on January 22, 2019, 08:00:01 AM
Quote from: jzumi on January 22, 2019, 12:19:22 AM
a reel that has some significant weaknesses and limitations.
Ball bearings are much more likely to fail than bushings.
-steve
I prefer the penn bushings/berings over ball berings. Just cant beat the simple bushings for heavy duty daily usage.
Quote from: captquint99 on January 22, 2019, 01:26:07 PM
Quote from: oc1 on January 22, 2019, 08:00:01 AM
Quote from: jzumi on January 22, 2019, 12:19:22 AM
a reel that has some significant weaknesses and limitations.
Ball bearings are much more likely to fail than bushings.
-steve
I prefer the penn bushings/berings over ball berings. Just cant beat the simple bushings for heavy duty daily usage.
Agree. For me it's the corrosion/ease of maintenance/ cost of replacement factors. Are bushings if fact, tougher than b.bearings?
The Chinese 112H2 reels have ball bearings but are otherwise almost identical to the US-made 112H reels.
Don't let the marketing hype cause you to disregard this more than capable reel. The current trend to go to roller bearings and higher and higher gear ratios are nothing less than marketing BS for
MOST of our needs.... 4:1 is all needed for
MOST of our fishing. Plain bearings work well and will out last a roller bearing in the less than perfect conditions we sometimes fish in. A "worn out" plain bearing will function where a worn out roller bearing will not. You still need to lube them but there is nothing wrong with plain bearings.
Quote from: foakes on January 21, 2019, 08:35:25 PM
Penn calls these bearings — but they are more accurately bushings.
In industry they are called "plain bearings", needle and ball bearings are "roller bearings".
https://www.tstar.com/blog/what-is-a-plane-bearing-or-is-it-a-plain-bearing (https://www.tstar.com/blog/what-is-a-plane-bearing-or-is-it-a-plain-bearing)
jzumi, I feel ya regarding your thoughts on the 112. A lot of the fellas here grew up with Penn Senators being
able match up well with most any reel made.
Their simplicity & seldom matched durability is still appreciated by many.
After some time working on other reels & gaining more knowledge the Penn Senators while maybe not as refined, the 4/0 in its many variations has earned my appreciation... Jeff
Well, perhaps I should think this through. I've seen too many fish lost to some of the junked out reels that my fishing buddies insist on never maintaining and that has led me to politely insist that poor quality and/or poorly maintained gear not be brought aboard. Maybe this is something I just have to get over. I mean, as much as I hate losing a fish because of bad gear, it is, after all, only fishing. I do it for enjoyment, not for my livelihood. If friends want to use junk and risk losing the fish of a lifetime, I guess I should be okay with it as long as they are having fun.
And maybe I've gotten too anal. I retie all my leaders after use. I sharpen the hook at the time. I'm the one maintaining all the reels and rods, as well as the down riggers and everything else every year.
Now, getting back to that 112H. Yeah, I could get her running fine but I know what is likely to happen. I'll put on 30 lb mono and my bud will fish it and maybe have great success. And then I'll see it again in 4 or 5 or 9 or 10 years and it will have a funky drag and braid stuck in the spool gap and a big salmon rolling over and swimming away. And none of us will be thinking, "wow, that is so fun."
Bottom line: I'm going to rebuild this reel and get it going. I'll hand it to my friend and I'll let him know that we have much better reels on the boat. I'll let him decide whether to keep it or put it on eBay.
Who knew reel maintenance could lead to introspection and personal growth? I thank you all.
John
John,
I can see where you're coming from!
BUT, if your buddy fails to maintain his 112H and causes all kinds of headaches, is he really going to maintain a newer, "better" (more expensive) reel?
Just wondering...
If it's for someone who doesn't take care of their gear a 112h would be a good reel. Less moving parts and things that can go wrong. Also there's a good selection of up grades to increase performance greatly. Less parts less headaches
Quote from: jzumi on January 22, 2019, 05:45:57 PM
Now, getting back to that 112H. Yeah, I could get her running fine but I know what is likely to happen. I'll put on 30 lb mono and my bud will fish it and maybe have great success. And then I'll see it again in 4 or 5 or 9 or 10 years and it will have a funky drag and braid stuck in the spool gap and a big salmon rolling over and swimming away. And none of us will be thinking, "wow, that is so fun."
John
Hey, be careful, John — you are talking about 75% of my clients.
If everyone was like you, and other knowledgeable folks on Alan's site — I would not have too much business!
😀😀😀
Best,
Fred
Quote from: Swami805 on January 22, 2019, 06:24:16 PM
If it's for someone who doesn't take care of their gear a 112h would be a good reel. Less moving parts and things that can go wrong.
As someone who never takes care of their gear, I say you nailed it. If the reel starts sounding crunchy, just squirt some oil in the ports and keep going.
-steve
Quote from: xjchad on January 22, 2019, 06:11:39 PM
John,
I can see where you're coming from!
BUT, if your buddy fails to maintain his 112H and causes all kinds of headaches, is he really going to maintain a newer, "better" (more expensive) reel?
Just wondering...
Good point! I think my bias may be showing...
No b.bearings in the 112H. What about the 110 &111(1/0 &2/0) Senators, cause I thought all of em had b.bearings?
Quote from: Gfish on January 23, 2019, 07:29:11 AM
No b.bearings in the 112H. What about the 110 &111(1/0 &2/0) Senators, cause I thought all of em had b.bearings?
The pre-war (actually pre-1950) Penn reels that I collect have bushings in the smaller Senators, I don't think the regular Senators switched to ball bearings in the smaller models..... only one schematic on Mystic Parts for each reel, they have bushings. And the smaller Senator models had the 5 o'clock handle position from the beginning and it was never changed to the 7 o'clock position. I think that holds true for the 1/0 through the 6/0, but it may only hold true through the 4/0 - I used to know that..... maybe dementia is beginning...
Quote from: Gfish on January 23, 2019, 07:29:11 AM
No b.bearings in the 112H. What about the 110 &111(1/0 &2/0) Senators, cause I thought all of em had b.bearings?
The 110 has bushings. Surprised me when I did the first maintenance since I was expecting ball bearings as in the bigger Senators.
One thing I've noticed about reels with b.bearing cups as part of the the spool assembly: removal of the b.bearing can be/usually is, pretty difficult.
If a lever drag reel can crunch a pinion bearing from axial load pretty easily, what am I doing to b.bearings as I try an pry them out from say; a Senator, with bearing-cup corrosion problems?
This adds weight to my opinion that favors bushings over b.bearings.