Thanks for all of the help so far re Jigmaster failure post.
So I threw together this 500 and it brought up a few more questions.
1st, I'm running the factory Penn steel 4:1 gear and pinion that came on the 500s from the 70-80s. My question is how is the strength of the factory steel 4:1 gears as compared to modern aftermarket SS gear sets from black pearl? The set I have was new unused. I'm inclined to stick with it unless it's not even close in streangth. Big Alaskan halibut might happen on this reel so strength is important.
2nd, how can I get a more gradual roll up from no drag to full drag? As it sits now, it increases very quickly with one full rotation, (360 degrees) with the star from none to just about max drag? Btw, I'm running Bryans 500 drag set.
Any recommended actions to slow down the quickness that the drag snugs down? Will a fine threaded sleeve and star help with this?
Few more random comments. I still need and plan to buy the Black Pearl SS double dog bridge/sleeve. If the fine thread sleeve helps with the drag adjustability I'll order it up. Will need a new motive star then too😬
Here are a few pics
(https://preview.ibb.co/bSOxGF/IMG_2229.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hrSPwF)
Factory 500 steel gears with bryans drag set
(https://preview.ibb.co/jhBRbF/IMG_2228.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dvy6bF)
If you want security in knowing the Jigmaster 500 is going to support the extra stress that big game will put on it, then I would go with the double dog bridge and the finer toothed gear sleeve and SS gears.
Try turning the drag star in smaller increments 1/4-1/2 turns
Joe
The more educated will chime in soon, but for what it's worth, the fine thread sleeve will give a slower drag ramp up, and the stainless gears will be stronger (But then I am not all that knowledgeable) How much stronger the stainless gears are, those with first hand knowledge will let us know. Personally I'd fish the steel gears until they no longer function without any qualms. B
1) the 4:1 gears are plenty strong. Good for 25 or so pounds. Whether stronger than heat treated stainless, it depends on the heat treating process.
2) For a more gradual application of a drag, you are correct. I would go with a fine thread stainless steel gear sleeve and star.
3) I just installed one of Adams stainless steel stars onto a jigmaster. Those are actually very nice. Highly recommended.
Sounds like sticking with these factory penn steel gears should do the trick. Now I just need the fine threaded sleeve and SS dog.
Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply,
Trevor
Quote from: TongassFisher on March 28, 2017, 05:59:02 AM
Sounds like sticking with these factory penn steel gears should do the trick. Now I just need the fine threaded sleeve and SS dog.
Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply,
Trevor
dont forget the star!
Quote from: TongassFisher on March 28, 2017, 05:59:02 AM
Sounds like sticking with these factory penn steel gears should do the trick. Now I just need the fine threaded sleeve and SS dog.
Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply,
Trevor
HI Trevor,
Fish it in this configuration until you are able to afford the SS bridge. Might as well to do it all at once.
Bryan
Trevor also look at the Gen I I sleeve kits that Alan has with the thin washer and CF under gear and a stainless dog threw in as well
I had a good friend growing up -- who had a 63 Dodge Coronet with a 440, Hurst Shifter, Posi, Cragers, Holleys, and more.
He would take it out to Raisin City to run the 1/4 mile drag strip every weekend.
After 3 or 4 runs -- the engine would blow.
Fortunately he became very skilled at removing the engine quickly, rebuilding it better, and waiting until the next weekend to do it again. Maybe built 8 engines.
Drafted into the Army, went to Korea instead of Nam -- came back and married -- never ran the car again. That was nearly 50 years ago -- last I checked, he still has the car tarped out in the barn.
Our Jigmasters are the same way -- we just keep learning and improving them beyond their design limits.
Lots of fun...
Best,
Fred
Multiple wave washers in a drag stack seem to really help power build slower. It's a shame there isn't room for a few more in a Penn star drag reel, but most times there's barely room for one. I guess I've gotten used to them ramping up so fast...it doesn't seem to bother me as much as it used to. 8)
Quote from: mo65 on March 30, 2017, 12:45:50 AM
Multiple wave washers in a drag stack seem to really help power build slower. It's a shame there isn't room for a few more in a Penn star drag reel, but most times there's barely room for one. I guess I've gotten used to them ramping up so fast...it doesn't seem to bother me as much as it used to. 8)
I've got a 113h with full SS internals and Motive sleeved drag, also have a stock internaled 113h and the drag builds much slower on the 113h than it does on my two jigmasters. I will just have to get used to the differences, No big! I would like to try out the fine threaded sleeve and star to see if that helps.
Thanks again everyone for taking the time to respond,
Trev
Quote from: mo65 on March 30, 2017, 12:45:50 AM
Multiple wave washers in a drag stack seem to really help power build slower. It's a shame there isn't room for a few more in a Penn star drag reel, but most times there's barely room for one. I guess I've gotten used to them ramping up so fast...it doesn't seem to bother me as much as it used to. 8)
I was thinking the opposite. A softer spring washer will ramp up slower than a stiff one. Stocking spring washers on top of each other makes them stiffer.
just my opinion.
Sal
Quote from: Alto Mare on March 30, 2017, 01:22:43 AM
A softer spring washer will ramp up slower than a stiff one.
This is why I was thinking multiple spring washers would ramp up slower...because it will be even softer. Kinda like the Garcia Ambassaduers that use two back to back...)(...for added travel.
I think there would be a difference, depending on the type of spring washer you are discussing. Mo's example of two washers in the )( configuration would be a softer configuration than (( or )), but if you're discussing a wavy washer, in my experience they don't stack well unless they are nested together, and that wouldn't make them softer, they would be stiffer, as Sal stated.
Sid
I used a plastic washer- ) from Mic Masters Car in my Newell that Sal had suggested and found that to be very helpful in graduating drag tension.
Joe
Good points Sid. There are different characteristics to wave washers and spring washers...although they both do the same job. Trevor made a point that his Senators ramped up slower than his Jigmasters. I tested his theory last night and sure enough...the smoothest...slowest ramp up I found was my 113H. Now I'm not even sure if this configuration is correct, but it has a large spring washer on top of the last keyed washer, and a thin wave washer between the star and tophat. I wonder also if Trevor could tame his Jiggy's ramp up with a delrin washer on top, like Sal did on his Senators.
At the current configuration, you really cannot compare the ramp rate of the drags between the 5-stack Jigmaster and the 5-stack 113H drag system. The Jigmaster uses very thin Carbontex drag washers where the 113H uses HT-100 drag washers. The HT-100 drag washers are more loosely weaved with a lot of peaks and valleys built into the drag washer which makes it more cushiony at lower drag settings. Now, if you were to compare my 5-stack Jigmaster with my 7-stack 113H drag systems, the ramp rate would be similar because of the lack of compression properties.
Likewise, if you were to install Penn's 3-stack HT-100 drag system back into the jigmaster, the ramp rate should be somewhat comparable to the 5-stack 113H HT-100 drag system...keep in mind, trying to keep things equal, the gear sleeve should be from the 505/506 (fine thread) instead of the 500/501 (course thread).
It seems no one is addressing that TongassFisher said "A full turn on the drag star" I think he would be much better off with 1/4 to 1/2 turns on the star thus easing off on the adjustments, It's not to say that he would be better of with the fine thread gear-sleeve, but if spending more money is of concern. Then why not try backing off on cranking the star a full turn? In my honest opinion.
Joe
Thanks for the response Joe, I used the full turn as a way to reference how quickly the drag increases on my 500 and 501. I got the 501 off of another member in trade but I believe that it has bryans drag upgrade as well although I have yet to break it down and look.
Bryans explanation about the density of the material and the peaks and valleys used to make the drag discs totally makes sense. Quite a difference between bryans upgrade drag kit and the penn HT 100s.
So today a $26 jigmaster 500 came in the mail I snagged off of eBay. It has the maroon sideplates and as far as I know is completely stock. Out of curiosity I tested this eBay 500 and the drag comes on much slower than bryans kit.
This is splitting hairs and is not a huge deal. Going back to your post Joe, I agree, just make smaller incramental changes when applying drag, no big!
If given the option I would like to figure out how to slow down the quickness the drag ramps up with subtle movement of the star. For me the more 113h like I can make the drag feel the better. I'll say it again, this is splitting hairs.
With all that being said, I'm pestering Bryan to ship me another one of his 500 drag upgrade kits because I like them so much. When it comes its going into a full SS black pearl kit with the double dog bridge and fine threaded stainless sleeve. Still need a few more parts to finish this build off. When I've got it all complete, I'll report back to everyone on this post the difference in feel between the coarse and fine threaded sleeves if any.
Thanks everyone,
Trevor
Trevor: I've built a 501 with the exact up grades that you mentioned in you first post W/standard threaded SS gear sleeve and 5.1 SS gears DD Bridge from black pearl and also Bryan's 5+1 drag system. I find that to be smooth and you can turn the drag down 1-1-1/2 turns to get to full drag. I think in this case it is the mater of starting to build a system from scratch, you know what the base is and there is no guess work. Thinking or guessing could end-up costing money,time and frustration, in my honest opinion.
Joe
P.S-Trevor; I went back to check how many turns it took me to come to full drag, and I have to apologize for telling you the wrong information. When I started to feel some drag resistance I counted the turns from there and it was 1-1/2 to full. The five turns was from backing off to the crank arm. Sorry for the misinformation.
Quote from: TongassFisher on March 31, 2017, 02:49:32 AM
If given the option I would like to figure out how to slow down the quickness the drag ramps up with subtle movement of the star.
If there is room replacing the wavy washer with a thin Bellville spring washer would help.
Now I'm confused Lee. I was under the impression the wavy washer was another term for a Bellville washer.
I'm mistaken about lots of stuff though. I learn everyday around here.
Both are spring washers, a Bellville is cone shaped.
(https://cloudfront.zoro.com/product/full/Z-qG_zjcpEx_.JPG)
Me too. Lotsa terms used in the posts on this forum have me doin a "double take" re-read sos I can understand. For example, "handle" is used to describe a knob or a handle, depending on the post. In this thread, I've seen "spring", "wavy"and "belleville" used, are they all diffrent? Standardizing the terms by defining 'em would help, but how to do that?...
Anyway, interesting stuff here, as I have a 1/2 tanked JM which includes factory steel gears and the ss-coarse thread sleeve.
Gfish
P.S. Thanks Lee, that clears up some a that washer confusion.
The wavy and Bellville washers are both spring washers.
https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-disc-springs/=16ztkuo (https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-disc-springs/=16ztkuo)
https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-disc-springs/=16ztl83 (https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-disc-springs/=16ztl83)
Wavy washer
(https://www.mysticparts.com/Assets/images/pennparts/parts/8_60.jpg)
"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"
Quote from: Gfish on March 31, 2017, 03:29:52 PM
Me too. Lotsa terms used in the posts on this forum have me doin a "double take" re-read sos I can understand. For example, "handle" is used to describe a knob or a handle, depending on the post. In this thread, I've seen "spring", "wavy"and "belleville" used, are they all diffrent? Standardizing the terms by defining 'em would help, but how to do that?...
Anyway, interesting stuff here, as I have a 1/2 tanked JM which includes factory steel gears and the ss-coarse thread sleeve.
Gfish
I know what ya mean Gfish...I have had to sift through the lingo myself at times. I thought about this after Sal and I had used differing terms for the wave washer. He used the term of spring washer...I used the term of wave washer. And the Belleville can be used here too, as it performs the same task...but is just shaped differently. I guess Trevor summed it up best...we're splitting hairs. Still, never hesitate to ask questions, no question is too silly if it helps a friend. 8)
P.S. As I was typing this, Lee made it clearer, the wave washer and the belleville are both
spring washers.
not to muddy up the water, but I provide Bellville spring washers in my kits because I like the way the force is applied to the circumference of the drag stack even before full compression where wavy washers do not...then again, at full drag, both of these spring washers are fully compressed (flat) which makes the difference between the two a moot point.
Bellville washers tend to last longer too.
I tend to use Bellville washers on 5-200 size gears and up. I'm working on a 60 now but there is not much room in the current drag stack for a Bellville.
Quote from: Keta on March 31, 2017, 03:35:28 PM
The wavy and Bellville washers are both spring washers.
https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-disc-springs/=16ztkuo (https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-disc-springs/=16ztkuo)
https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-disc-springs/=16ztl83 (https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-disc-springs/=16ztl83)
Wavy washer
(https://www.mysticparts.com/Assets/images/pennparts/parts/8_60.jpg)
Those washers both look like wavy washers to me, just the one on the right is black.
Sid
"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"
They are both wavy washers.
"By George, I think I have it!" Wavy-spring washers and bellville(yes!, bell shaped, I see it!)spring washers! Right?
You guys! I laughed out loud. ;D
Hey Gfish, do you know how to do pm's? I sent one a while back......
Yeah Randy, I sent one(I hope) last night, lemme know if you got it via a pm. Checked the reel this AM, it's a go on my side, need pertinent transaction info. Sorry, don't read my messages or even E-mail that often. Thanks
Gfish