is a rod >8 feet long really necessary for surface irons? thanks much!
I have a 7'2" 15-24kg rod popper rod. Extra long rods are fun to cast, but it gives the fish a bigger lever to use against you.
Rgds
Mark
Quote from: MFB on April 07, 2014, 07:12:09 PM
...but it gives the fish a bigger lever to use against you...
this is a physical fact. i asked if it's really necessary because with the research i have been doing it seems that there are, who fish california waters, that favor the ulua or longer rod for surface irons.
i'm just preparing for my 1st on the boat saltwater fishing. better to have the tools when needed than not...;D
I am a long rod lover, but if you can cast a short rod they are not absolutly necessary. I find that anything over 9 ft just gets in the way and annois people.
Ron
Bula Mel,
Are these what you guys call surface irons?
(http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q680/fijigreen69/SANY0966_zps30a31121.jpg) (http://s1353.photobucket.com/user/fijigreen69/media/SANY0966_zps30a31121.jpg.html)
My west coast bro dumped a bunch of his gear on me last time I was back... I have a bunch of these I've never used and here
in Fiji, we're not sure what to do with them ;D
He also gave me a really nice Calstar West Coast 25-40.... am I supposed to toss these around with that rod?
So what exactly are you targeting with surface iron & whats the technique? is it a viable tropical fishing method?
Cheers
Bula Erik,
I use surface irons in Hawaii. I can cast those a good 100 yards + with my 20# reel or my baitcaster with 20# braid going for GT. Unfortunately, nothing in the water near I was fishing (went diving after no hits and could not see a single predator fish). I'm sure GT, tuna,... would hit that if it swims right.
Not counting my 2 piece steelhead and salmon rods (8'6"-9'6") I have a few 8' rods, they are a PIA to transport and I prefer 7' rods
Since I am local in socal, I love my 8'6 e-glass rod for slinging the irons.
Long rods are a good choice on the local So. Cal. party boats. The Tady 45 at the top of your photo is a surface iron. The green & yellow Salas jr 6x is a yoyo iron that is a real yellowtail killer.
We use rods up to 12 feet all the time for surf and jetty fishing
I prefer something in the 10' range just b/c those long rods tire me out
I like 8 foot rods for fishing the surface iron, longer just are a PITA for transport, boat storage and such. I would fisher longer if the above were not true for me. The term "surface iron" is a bit of a misnomer as the lighter material irons can be fished right on top of the water column or allowed to sink to depth. Of course the heavier material irons are better to fish at depth or yoyo'ed because of their faster sink rate. You spend more time fishing with these than waiting for them to sink. I have also used heavy jigs right on the surface, their weight makes it easier to cast them a good distance with little effort. But, over all lighter jigs = surface iron and heavy = yoyo here on the left coast.
In the pic the 6X Jr. is considered a yoyo iron and is the most fished yoyo iron size here in So Cal. The 6X Jr. is easier on the arms and body if you fish the yoyo for a extended period of time than bigger yoyo irons.
Salas the maker of the 6X Jr. in the pic makes some of the best irons IMO and fish well when the retrive rate is found giving the jig the best action. (Mostly when using surface irons, yoyo is more about speed). Tady are also fine jigs but there are certin things you want to look for then selecting their surface irons to give them the best kicking action. I fish both jigs and any serious So Cal fisherman should never leave on a trip, be it a 1 hour boat ride or multiday trip, without at least a couple of these jigs.
Are they a must have? No, but if you spend many days here fishing these are something you have got to have in your tackle box.
ok then, the consensus is a longer rod is not necessary just a "Taninized reel"... am i correct or am i right? ;D ;D ;D ;) ;) ;)
Bula Erik,
Quote from: erikpowell on April 07, 2014, 08:12:32 PM
Calstar West Coast 25-40...
yes you can use this rod
Quote from: erikpowell on April 07, 2014, 08:12:32 PM
...whats the technique?...
just toss it where the fish are and reel it back in. it think the preferred ratio is 1:6 from my research not too slow though but not fast
Quote from: erikpowell on April 07, 2014, 08:12:32 PM
... is it a viable tropical fishing method?
there's only one way to find out...;D ;D ;D
Quote from: erikpowell on April 07, 2014, 08:12:32 PM
So what exactly are you targeting with surface iron & whats the technique? is it a viable tropical fishing method?
Cheers
Any fish that is feeding on or near the surface to about 75' deep is what I use the surface iron on. The key to fishing the surface iron is to get the jig to kick back and forth, the more you can get it to kick (wobble) the better. The front of the jig will be almost steady and the tail end will kick back and forth. Fish the jig right below the surface at first so you can see its action on the retrieve and play around with the speed. You want to achieve a steady retrieve with the most kick. This may take different speeds even with jigs the same size and model by the same manufacture. This holds especially true with Tady surface iron and not so much with Salas.
When fish are feeding or holding right near the bottom thats the time to use a yoyo jig. You drop the iron strait down to the bottom and reel strait back up through where the fish are. if not bit drop back to the bottom and repeat. Strait up and strait down, just like a yoyo. This is more about the speed of the jig that the fish are looking for and less about action. With that said most of the time the fish are looking for a jig ripping by (fast), its kind of like a cat with a ball of yarn, the fish may not be in feeding mode but they find it very hard not to chomp onto that iron as it speeds past.
Erik, SoCal's post should be helpful to you. These are not like butterfly jigs. No extra action has to be imparted on the jig. Tie the line directly to the ring on the lure without swivels or any other extra terminal gear. Knot should be near the brazed spot on the ring, so that spot doesn't interfere with or limit the action by rubbing inside the hole in the jig. For Surface iron fishing, toss the lure then let it sink to your preferred depth. Point the rod tip at the lure, put the reel in gear and wind. When there is a strike just keep winding. A great big swing probably isn't necessary to set the hook because the line is already tight when the fish bites.
When I bought my BlackHole popper rod, I bought the 7'6 based soley on the fact the 8 footer didn't fit inside my car .
Even though I knew the 8' was a better caster... Oh well.. That's I roll :o
I had to ask the shop guy to let me run outside for a minute with both rods... He looked sideways at me for a sec ;D
A longer rod gives you more casting distance for sure on the surface iron but you can use a 7'. For yoyo I like a 7' rod some like 6.5'.
Here is a pic of the iron I'm carrying in my 1-3 day tackle box right now. Others move in and out depending on where I'll be fishing and some yoyo iron gets doubles up on because from time to time you will snag the bottom and loose some.
On the top are Tady's, the bottom Salas and to the right others.
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag355/SoCalAngler1/Marks188_zpseae1fa79.jpg)
Mel, I hope I didn't hijack your thread here... Thanks for the ideas & input!
And Mel, Bryan, Lee, Ben, SCA, thanks you guys, that's all excellent info... I get it now. Good stuff...
I can't see any reason those wouldn't work here... especially the salas in that color.
So no action, both just a straight winding retrieve looking for the magic speed eh?
I just noticed that they are right about the same weight, the shorter salas is denser/heavier with a thicker ring but feels the same weight as the bigger tady..
Looking forward to giving them a go next time out. I've got a 501 and a 505, both
Tani-tized &
Sal-inized, I can whack on that Calstar rod.
and add another one to the quiver.
You guys rock!
Thanks again
Quote from: noyb72 on April 07, 2014, 07:50:55 PM
I am a long rod lover, but if you can cast a short rod they are not absolutly necessary. I find that anything over 9 ft just gets in the way and annois people.
Ron
;D same applies to surfboards... especially when you have an hour longboat ride to the reef! ;D
Erik, it's all good. just think of it as a conversation by a group of drunk people ;D ;D ;D making sense but no fighting allowed. ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D
I don't see any castmasters in the list, I always like a couple of them for surface bites.
Ron
for the surface irons, I have seen tutorial where you can tweaked the "swimming" action by reaming the top hole just a bit to make it slight off center. Grab hold of the ring and spin the jig in a circle. It should spin around in a circle nicely.
I fish two different 10 foot sticks , an ss Ulua , and a 100j all glass. Here are the benefits I find in fishing these long rods
1) Casting distance. They seem to load up great, and the added length really adds distance to the cast.
2) if a cattle boat bow rides high the extra length you can use to lessen the angle you are reeling at
3) If you hook up far outside the bait fisherman you can easily move over them while hooked up
4) you can easily cast while keeping the jig away from people
5) most importantly the "cool factor"
Many of these benefits are also drawbacks. If you have a bad back a 10 foot stick and a large fish will work you. I took a beating on a 38 lb yellowtail last year and Im a strong guy. You have to drop the jig far enough to get the rod to load up right. Many reels are tough to fit to larger poles.
Does a 100j have a large diameter butt like the Ulua??
Quote from: erikpowell on April 07, 2014, 08:12:32 PM
Bula Mel,
Are these what you guys call surface irons?
(http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q680/fijigreen69/SANY0966_zps30a31121.jpg) (http://s1353.photobucket.com/user/fijigreen69/media/SANY0966_zps30a31121.jpg.html)
My west coast bro dumped a bunch of his gear on me last time I was back… I have a bunch of these I've never used and here
in Fiji, we're not sure what to do with them ;D
He also gave me a really nice Calstar West Coast 25-40…. am I supposed to toss these around with that rod?
So what exactly are you targeting with surface iron & whats the technique? is it a viable tropical fishing method?
Cheers
Hey Erik,
This type of iron is deadly in every tropical sea and I know guys who fished them years ago in Fiji with great success on GT and Dogtooth, Wrasse etc. They are extremely inexpensive and incredibly durable and I would consider them a staple of an overseas angler given the expense of getting lures to an island location in conjunction with how long they will last (forever, or until you get cut off whichever happens first :D).
SoCal's posts are right on. The heavy lures are fished right off the bottom. Lighter alloy ones are fished near the surface. The heavies you basically wind back as fast as possible with usually no rod action but variable speed retrieves work at times.
The light lures are actually fished pretty slow near the surface or throughout the water column if you have the patience to let them sink. If you have a light tip like most west coast live bait sticks you can feel the "wobble" when you have the speed just right. It's a wide wiggle that you will recognize when you see it.
They slay! Asian jigs may be better when you need more action or more density to get deep. On an average current day and at depths no more than 75-100m the West Coast jigs have boated tonnage.
best
Quote from: Mel B on April 07, 2014, 05:57:05 PM
is a rod >8 feet long really necessary for surface irons? thanks much!
Any 7' live bait stick will cast them just fine. They are dense, heavy lures as far as casting goes and length is not critical.
Your 7' rod is your "go to" for one rod to do it all from live bait to casting iron to dropper loop and yo-yo. You can boat 95% of West Coast fish with this rod.
An 8'+ rod is typically dedicated casting and unless very light rarely used for live bait fishing.
Quote from: SoCalAngler on April 08, 2014, 02:43:29 AM
A longer rod gives you more casting distance for sure on the surface iron but you can use a 7'. For yoyo I like a 7' rod some like 6.5'.
Here is a pic of the iron I'm carrying in my 1-3 day tackle box right now. Others move in and out depending on where I'll be fishing and some yoyo iron gets doubles up on because from time to time you will snag the bottom and loose some.
On the top are Tady's, the bottom Salas and to the right others.
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag355/SoCalAngler1/Marks188_zpseae1fa79.jpg)
That's a nice selection SoCal all proven to catch.
One suggestion if I may: drop the second assist hook from the Asian style jig. The saying goes if you have 2 on there, there is one to stick the fish and one to stick you (ie very dangerous). You will not notice the lack of hook ups with just one.
best
As a cattle boat fisherman, i ended up using 7-8' rod for surface iron. Amidship don't have much room to cast and an 8' spinning outfit worked out better for me. In an open forecastle or fantail, it will be 9' j90. So, it's not really necessary to have >8' rod for surface iron, unless you ask one of the teenage pinheads.
A longer rod aids casting distance plain and simple. For most of the casting we do here we use a pendulm style cast and not what you see on freshwater bass fishing shows. This type of casting IMO takes more skill to master and even the guys reaching the furthest distances are still looking to gain more yards with the perfect casts. If I'm getting about 80-90% of the max distance I feel I'm casting well. How do you know what 80-90% of the max distance is? If you sling the iron enough you will get those few, very rare casts where everything comes together and the iron looks like it was shot out of a gun. You even amaze yourself on how far it went.
Casting anything from a Southern California party boat means you have to be careful of others. This means ALWAYS look behind you while making your cast. There is alot of water in front of you and your going to hit it with your lure or bait so be more concerned about not hooking others then where your cast is going to land. I always say something like "going out" to let others I cant see know I'm about to let her rip so they don't walk into a dangerous area. With the pendlum cast that is right behind you thats why it is a must you always look back until your hook is out of range of hooking others.
Quote from: johndtuttle on April 09, 2014, 04:31:03 PMAn 8'+ rod is typically dedicated casting and unless very light rarely used for live bait fishing.
Well, not so sure about this. Myself and many others are now using 8' rods for bait up to about 30lb test line. This seems to be catching on here more and more just like smaller reels for bigger fish did aroung 10-12 years ago. I went on a trip last year where I and some other guy, don't know who he was, were using 8' rods and 25lb test for the 40-50lb BTF. The deckhands at first thought we were nuts, until we had our Mexico 5 fish limit way before others and we were hooking and handing fish to those that weren't so lucky.
I would not be surprised to see more of this, especially if the bait situation starts to move back to anchovy and away from sardine.
Quote from: johndtuttle on April 09, 2014, 04:31:03 PM
An 8'+ rod is typically dedicated casting and unless very light rarely used for live bait fishing.
Quote from: SoCalAngler on April 10, 2014, 12:15:30 AMWell, not so sure about this. Myself and many others are now using 8' rods for bait up to about 30lb test line. This seems to be catching on here more and more just like smaller reels for bigger fish did aroung 10-12 years ago. I went on a trip last year where I and some other guy, don't know who he was, were using 8' rods and 25lb test for the 40-50lb BTF. The deckhands at first thought we were nuts, until we had our Mexico 5 fish limit way before others and we were hooking and handing fish to those that weren't so lucky.
I would not be surprised to see more of this, especially if the bait situation starts to move back to anchovy and away from sardine.
I think if you read between the lines of my post you will see we agree :). "Very light" is that exact situation.
regards
JT and SCA, I did a bit of editing to fix your quotes, I did not change any text.
Mel,
I like to use 8'+ rods for bait and surface iron and have been for decades. With the longer rod you can get your bait out further than other anglers with shorter rods. Specifically in regards to your question of surface iron, I use 8-9' rods. JT and SCA have very valid points/comments. I like to cast WAY past the other anglers and let my light surface iron sink some then retrieve it. This way Im covering more of the water column to target more fish, plus if I catch a fish farther out I get to fight him longer. For long rang fishing however, I only take one 8' rod (which Ive sold) because of the leverage factor and larger fish. My current socal jig rods are a Seeker SJ85 (8.5'), a Calstar 900M (9'), and on occasions my Calstar 270H-8'. I plan to migrate away from the 900M to an 8' rod due to my age and back issue. You commented on 6:1 gear ratio; I find line retrive per handle revolution to be a more reliable indicator of speed. That said, Ive found 36-41" per handle turn best for jigging. I like 36-38"/turn the best, for I dont want my iron spinning from too fast a retrieve. If for some reason I need to move the jig faster then I just crank alittle faster.
Leo
Hi Leo,
Let me give you a suggestion for an 8 foot light iron Jig blank (tady 45,tady C, 7X jr, jackpot)
Like you I suffer from back/ shoulder/arm problems I love my 9'and 10' jig sticks but I am getting to the point that there painful to throw more then a few times a day....so I started searching a few years back for an 8 foot light iron jig stick that can handle 30# & 40# with a Trinidad 16 or 20 and here's what I came up with
A BT270-8H is great for a tady A1light
The real good one is a BT670-8' 20~50# it's kind of a sleeper you don't see many of them Leon made them for the guys that wanted a 8' rod for throwing surface iron
So now my jig sticks I never leave home without are:
BT670-8' w/ Trinidad 16A full of 65# 832 w/ flo leader 30#&40#
BT270-8H w/ Trinidad 16NA full of 50# 832 w/ flo leader 25#&30#
As for the BT670-8 it casts almost as far as my BT 690j
This all comes from 45 + years of rod building experience
Enjoy the info
Dave B
DBCustoms