Not sure how this first came up, but it appears that the two are identical - the ones in my collection are - and that is peculiar because Penn didn't duplicate too many things in this manner.... In fact, if you go to the Penn Parts website you'll find that the 30-60 stand is what is currently being used on the 85, and the 30-85 stand is listed as used on the 14, 79, 80 and 185; but not the 85!
The 85 was introduced in 1941 as a cheap Long Beach imitation; it had the same dimensions, no trim rings and a slot screw held the wooden bell-shaped handle in place. The inner workings are essentially identical to the Long Beach 60 and 65; it has a free spool lever and a star drag, and the most notable difference (aside from trim rings and handle) between this 85 and the 60 is the plastic spool that came standard on the 85 (although I do have a few Long Beach 60s in my collection with plastic spools, as they were more readily available and less expensive than the chromed brass spools because of the materials shortage during the WWII years). The dimensions of the reels are the same, and the stands are identical, yet they have different numbers. I feel there's a part of this story I'm missing.
Anyone understand what is going on with the numbers here? Why are there two apparently identical stands with different part numbers? There are plenty of instances where Penn uses a stand from one model on a different model, but in my experience, they have left the part number the same. Note that prior to 1949-50 there were no part numbers, so this is not something that came about in the early 1940's when the reel was introduced, it came about only when part numbers came into use. Before that, I would guess the Long Beach 60 and the 85 probably did use the same stand.
Sid
I believe the biggest difference when referring to the part number is the stands that are numbered for the Penn 85 are Nickel plated rather than chrome plated.
Thanks, Mike! That makes sense. I hadn't noticed, but the description of the 85 does include, "finished in Nickel". I guess what really threw me was that the 85 stand doesn't appear to be used on the 85, but that is just something with Penn Parts, not Penn reels.
Sid
At some point, Penn changed the stand on the 85 from the 30-85 to the 30-60, as we have on our schematics.
Not sure why or when, I didn't go hunting the old cross ref lists. Our notes also say the difference is in the coating and the 85 has a note about being a "lighter metal"
I added the notes online about the finishes, since it was in our file but not online.
Also added the 85 seaboy to the 30-85 stand info, since it can use either one.
Thanks, Mo! The change from the 30-85 stand to the 30-60 stand was after 1961 based on what I can find from the '61 catalog on your website. By 2004 the parts cross-reference list was no longer in the catalog. Interesting how a cheaper nickel-plated part was replaced by a (slightly) more expensive chromed part later on down the line.... but by that time the economy was different than when the reel was introduced (in the immediate pre-WWII era) and people had more disposable income.
Sid
During the time period you reference I believe the price of chromium was a large factor .
Buzz
Whether in earlier or later years, from a manufacturer's finished product viewpoint -- the other components needed to match the stand, cosmetically.
So it was also a matter of the rings, posts, stand, star, and crank all matching -- whether chromed over brass or nickel silver.
Not much difference between the two -- strength-wise.
Both still are 4 holers with legs instead of a more solid stand -- no holes for clamp studs.
I have a lot of these -- and try to keep the numbers the same -- but they interchange easily when doing a repair or restoration on a user.
Best,
Fred
Hey wait.....Mo has a website?!?! :o :o Spill the beans bro :-[ Bill
Bill, we have two Mos. Wrong Mo. This one is Maureen Albertson at Penn Parts, I figure you knew about this website.
Sid
Quote from: foakes on March 26, 2017, 09:35:24 PM
Whether in earlier or later years, from a manufacturer's finished product viewpoint -- the other components needed to match the stand, cosmetically.
So it was also a matter of the rings, posts, stand, star, and crank all matching -- whether chromed over brass or nickel silver.
Except there is no 37-85 post with brushed nickel finish. The 85 uses the chromed 37-60 posts. The 1950 Penn catalog (the first year of parts numbers) lists the 37-60 chromed post as used on the 85. It appears that there was never a 37-85 brushed nickel post.
Sid
You are probably right on the numbers, Sid --
However, I just looked through a few crates of 60 - 85 - 285, and others -- some of the older 85 may be chrome over brass -- but they have a duller finish than the newer chrome over brass on some of the LB's.
Fortunately, they all seem to fit together OK.
Best,
Fred
Quote from: sdlehr on March 29, 2017, 12:39:59 PM
Bill, we have two Mos. Wrong Mo.
Hee hee...I can barely get on this website...let alone create one! :D
Quote from: sdlehr on March 29, 2017, 01:15:08 PM
Quote from: foakes on March 26, 2017, 09:35:24 PM
Whether in earlier or later years, from a manufacturer's finished product viewpoint -- the other components needed to match the stand, cosmetically.
So it was also a matter of the rings, posts, stand, star, and crank all matching -- whether chromed over brass or nickel silver.
Except there is no 37-85 post with brushed nickel finish. The 85 uses the chromed 37-60 posts. The 1950 Penn catalog (the first year of parts numbers) lists the 37-60 chromed post as used on the 85. It appears that there was never a 37-85 brushed nickel post.
Sid, I could be all wet here but I think there were not only nickel finished posts, but also handles,
stars, the whole shebang. I have cleaned up old 85 Seaboys and some other early models that had a lower luster finish on all metal...sure looks nickle plated. I know it's hard to determine from this these photos...but all the metal parts on these old 85s appear to have a matching finish. On reels in better condition, this satin finish actually looks very nice.
I suspect that all those posts in Fred's box have nickel plating but the shiny ones have a chrome flash over the nickel. The nickel plating is there for corrosion resistance. The chrome flash on top of the nickel is to prevent tarnishing. The chrome flash may be only a few millionths thick. Nickel has a yellowish tint to it and the chrome gives it a bluish tint. The extra step was expensive but gave the reels a shiny modern look. Shiny sells well. Penn was not the only reel manufacturer to go through this evolution and once one or two reel makers did it they all had to do it to keep up.
-steve
Quote from: mo65 on April 30, 2017, 01:07:37 PM
stars, the whole shebang. I have cleaned up old 85 Seaboys and some other early models that had a lower luster finish on all metal...sure looks nickle plated. I know it's hard to determine from this these photos...but all the metal parts on these old 85s appear to have a matching finish. On reels in better condition, this satin finish actually looks very nice.[/color]
Mo, I never doubted the existence of the nickel-plated handles, feet, spools and stars, I have a few of those, but I found no listing in the Penn catalog I was looking at for the nickel-plated posts. If they came as original equipment in NPB I don't understand why they wouldn't be listed as a replacement part.... I'll look more closely at my collection and see if I can find any posts that appear to be Nickel-plated (I think I did this when we started this discussion and came up empty, but I'll do it again to be sure).
Sid
Wait a second, some of those non-glossy parts are "tumbled chrome" - wherein the parts to be chromed were not polished to a high gloss before plating - and some of them are Nickel-plated - depending, of course, on the specific reel in question. (Not to mention the chrome-on-nickel-on-brass plating that was done on the 113h's and 114h's (and probably others) in the early 60's). The nickel and tumbled chrome have a similar matte finish, but the color is a little different, chrome being whiter and nickel being a little towards the er, um, pull a nickel out of your pocket and polish it up.... it's hard to describe colors with words, but to me, it's a little on the blue side...
Sid
Quote from: sdlehr on May 04, 2017, 03:10:44 PM
Some of those non-glossy parts are "tumbled chrome" - wherein the parts to be chromed were not polished to a high gloss before plating - and some of them are Nickel-plated - depending, of course, on the specific reel in question.
Thanks for adding this info Sid...I had forgotten about the "tumbled chrome"...we had discussed this some time earlier. Or maybe it was in Mike's book, at any rate, thanks for reminding me! 8)