I have as I've stated prior here 3 25N's. The issue I'm having are the drags on 2 of them. They work but not as well as I would like. I'm using 60 lb. so I'm setting my drag @ 20 lbs. The issue is the drag. It feels nice & smooth wen pulled by hand directly from the reel. However when setting drag with rod strung & lifting weight or fighting fish with them pulling steady the rod tip bounces. Telling me the drag is not as smooth as it seems when pulling line by hand directly from reel.
These reels have seen heavy use for the short 2 years I've had them but nothing out of the ordinary. Will redoing the drags with Cal's help this? It is probably time to service them a bit. But this problem has been there from the beginning. I thought it might get better with use but that has not been the case. This issue is annoying....Any recommended fixes
Try repeating what you did but wet the line and see if it improves. Second is to check the guides. If the guides are not smooth, then that could be the problem.
Brian I presently have 2 of these reels on Ugly Stick Custom rods with stainless guides. They will stay on these rods while I rebuild my St Croix cat rods. There was a noticeable improvement with line wet. But it seems I remember this same scenario on the Missouri River last year a couple of times with some bigger Blues.
As a side note I've yet to achieve the 25 lbs. of drag claimed by Penn in any of my 3 25N's. This is with the star medieval, stupid tight where it wont turn any more. My top shot comes right up to the edge where the black & gold anodize coloring of the spool meets....covering all the black anodize
black anodize.....so I might be over filling a bit.
20 lbs. of drag suits my needs for these reels just fine....I just want smooth as possible!
Assuming this is star drag and not lever?
It certainly sounds like a drag issue -- but before digging into that -- the rod needs to be eliminated as a possible culprit.
One way -- run one of your wife's old nylons through each guide -- if there is any catching, there is one problem located.
Or, install the reel on a brand new rod -- just to try it out.
Once these are determined to be either determining factors -- or non-issues, you can start on the reel.
Break down the drag stack, inspect the (3) Geared CFs for fraying or glazing. If OK, liberally apply the Cal's -- and try out. If badly worn -- replace the drag washers.
Also replace the under gear washer #4 with Delrin or a lightly Cal's greased CF.
This could also be a spool issue, if these reels are used primarily under tough conditions.
So check the spool Axle tensioners -- check the bearings to make sure they are free and lubed.
For reels under heavy use -- there could be a combination of factors -- but there will be one main issue that will likely address 80% of your problem.
As for the drag numbers -- unfortunately, a good portion of the modern manufacturers are "adjusting" their stated drag numbers to the competition. Penn is no exception. So you will need to determine what is optimum for you.
You possibly do not need that much line on the spool, either.
Good luck,
Fred
Fred, thanks a lot for that reply. Yes these are star drags. I do think I'm running them a bit over filled. These really are great reels. I just want the drags SMOOTH.
This evening when I get back I will more thoroughly check my guides & other stuff you mentioned. Very possibly the stainless guides are at fault being cheap? But I will always have at times room for & reason to use an Ugly Stick rod. They just come in handy for packing the times when I'm on foot, busting through the Kansas under brush to get to the river bank.
I'll post what I find out. Again thanks for your reply......Jeff D.
OK I just placed my Andros & all 3 25Ns's on the same St Croix Rod all 3 Penn reels have a drag that grabs & releases nothing even close to what I get with the Andros. It is night & day difference. To such an extreme I will not be using my 25 N's until I get it corrected. My reason for trying the Andros was just to make sure what I was feeling wasn't right. It isn't.
If you haven't greased the drags with Cal's, start there. If you didn't pre service the reels before using, it's past time for servicing. BTW, this reel has the Versa Drag, not the conventional Penn Senator type drag.
dayone, I did strip the reels down upon receiving them from Charkbait. Everything looked great for a factory reel. In fact the service it had received from the factory looked better than any I had seen prior on a brand new reel. I don't fish the salt so I did nothing to these reels.....I am starting to believe this is going to be a lesson learned....thanks for your reply ....Jeff D.
I've always set my spool tension with the reel in free spool & tighten the adjustment right to the point where there is no felt side to side play then backing off a 1/2 to full click on the ratchet. Got to thinking no one ever told me this was the way to do it I just figured it best. Is this right?
Quote from: Rivverrat on May 21, 2015, 04:02:04 AM
dayone, I did strip the reels down upon receiving them from Charkbait. Everything looked great for a factory reel. In fact the service it had received from the factory looked better than any I had seen prior on a brand new reel. I don't fish the salt so I did nothing to these reels.....I am starting to believe this is going to be a lesson learned....thanks for your reply ....Jeff D.
The salt has nothing to do with it. All reels need some sort of pre service, especially the drags. Try greasing them and see what happens. If a drag is getting jumpy, it needs service.
No, salt water is not the issue here. I was just stating that as the basis of my flawed reasoning for not servicing them initially.
After tearing one real down & checking the drag washers I'm pretty greasing them will fix this issue. Got Cal's grease coming. It's been raining & cold for this time of year here so it will be a good time to take care of all 3 of them.
Quote from: Rivverrat on May 21, 2015, 06:27:04 AM
No, salt water is not the issue here. I was just stating that as the basis of my flawed reasoning for not servicing them initially.
After tearing one real down & checking the drag washers I'm pretty greasing them will fix this issue. Got Cal's grease coming. It's been raining & cold for this time of year here so it will be a good time to take care of all 3 of them.
Fred has it all covered and I would go down his list from top to bottom and check the drags a lot the way.
Cals is a MUST and will definitely help the issue as you are running these at max drag settings. Also, I believe the Fathoms come with a plastic under gear washer. I would replace that with a PTFE Delrin washer, they are far more smooth as an under gear washer and help a lot when drags are maxed out like that.
I have to ask, what kind of fresh water fish are you after that you utilize 20 lbs of drag?
fIsHsTiCks,
I'm after big Blues & Flathead. The bigger Flathead some times take up living in log piles that the river pushes together. 20lbs. of drag is not enough to get some of them out & circle hooks don't cut it here either.
The Missouri River is a different animal all together compared to the Kaw River. In the past fishing with 7000 C3's I would get spooled fishing using 40 lb. & 14 lbs. of drag. Some times it was the fish other times it was the fish & the 5+ mph current one deals with. The Missouri River is relaxing but is at the same time a heads up affair. 4 Killer B's of the Missouri River BRIDGES, BARGES, BUOYS & BEER!!!
The Kaw River is my favorite. Said to be one of our nations top Flathead Cat fisheries by In Fisherman. I have fished, trapped & hunted its banks for 40 + years I have guided on it for some 10 years, never once growing tired or bored with any of it. Some day I will pull a state or very possibly a world record from this River. I have come close numerous times.
I've have now stripped down my reels. Following Fred's recommendations I am convinced a full service is in order & believe some Cal's will fix the issue on all 3 reels. Waiting on stuff to get here......Jeff
Where do I get the delrin washers or the material to make them?
OK I just found out Dawn at Smooth Drag might have them
Riverrat,
I am way past my prime fighting weight and 74 years old. ;) ;D I did some of these guys drag tests to determine the drags on a few of my reels. At 20#'s of drag, I could not crank the handle--so the drag was determined by backing up with the reel. You guys actually fishing that amount of drag is simply amazing to this old man.
TomT
Tom, I've stopped doing that. When I first started using these 25N's I made sure one of them received more use than the others. Meaning, if I ever left with just one or was doing any cast & retrieve it was with one particular reel of the 3 that got used. I had the handle extended out long for leverage. The gears have been replaced in this reel along with a bearing. I no longer fish these reels with the handle in its longest position. I also don't use them for a winch any more. With the 6:1 gears on the Fathoms they don't lend themselves well to winching fish any way. I have started letting the rod do the work by pulling smoothly. I have found this much easier over all on my reels.
The other issue with slow gears is while you can winch fish in the slower ratio doesn't take up enough line fast enough to clear them from the house of logs & other trash the fish I'm after live in. I'm not fishing straight down but out in front of me in very shallow water.
Tom I don't know what reels you have but I bet if you had say a Makaira you wouldn't have much trouble at all with cranking the handle at a high drag setting with the reel in low gear.
In my opinion, based on my use I would say using the Fathom star drags with 6:1 gears to winch in fish is abuse. Some may think differently. But I wont do it any more with the reels I'm using at the present time. Things seem to loosen up fairly quickly.....Jeff
Jeff --
Most of us naturally concentrate on our reels -- but I think you have hit the nail on the head when relating your technique for pulling the Hogs from the Logs.
It takes a solid, but slightly flexible and capable rod -- with backbone in reserve -- along with an experienced feel for the fish, underwater terrain, and structure.
All components need to be working together -- Rod, Reel, Line, Leader and Hook hardware -- and the fisherman's technique and experience.
Sounds like you have it down.
Looking forward to a new record soon! I think there is a giant just lurking along those log sets -- larger than you or anyone else realizes.
And it will not be luck that brings him home -- it will be your preparation in regards to what seems like overkill to the average angler -- along with skill and knowledge.
Thanks for keeping us in the loop -- and good luck in your quest.
Best,
Fred
My FA25N has 4:1 gears ;D
Keta I've thought long & hard on placing a lower ratio gear set in my 25N's. I decided after using a friends granny geared rigs that for my purpose & style it doesn't work well. I plant my feet & with a proper 7'- 8' rod along with timing & working the rod & reel in unison I have found the higher ratio gear are most beneficial in keeping the line tight & their head pointed towards me.
The issue is if my timing is off just a bit between working the rod & turning the handle on the reel I've lost the battle at that point.
It's quite funny some times when you get the since the fish is thinking & at times just gets angry.....Its the times I'm at the top of my game & the fish is being worked & seems to know it... unable to go left or right...& all of a sudden like they they put it in R for race & in FULL BLAST mode they come charging straight at me, pushing a small wake of water in front of them with top tip of their tail some times piercing the surface..... It makes my heart race & has kept me wide eyed awake at night just thinking about it.
Its past midnight & a 5 year old little boy gets out of bed to go look at his rod & reel. He cant sleep, the anticipation & excitement of fishing The River with his grandpa in the morning is far more than any person should have to suffer through......45 years later its not got any better. That anticipation & excitement felt 45 years ago still resides inside this man. When winter thaws & it begins to warm a bit & I'm out for first time of the year.....grandpa is gone now but that 5 year old little boy is still there.....Jeff
4:1 isn't quite "granny gear" and at one time was considered high speed. For most of my needs 4:1 is just about right.
Yeah, Lee & Jeff --
1.6 or 2.5/1 are what I consider Granny -- and has its use when very large fish are involved.
4/1 is standard Jigmaster ratios -- and was considered a happy medium between regular and higher speeds.
I still think 4/1 is about optimum for a majority of fishing. You have a stronger gear, with larger teeth -- and less prone to stripping under heavy pressure.
Might consider trying 4/1 gears in just one of your reels -- along with a longer crank arm and good handle grip.
You may be surprised -- with your good technique of rod horsing, this might be the bomb.
Best,
Fred
No 4:1 is not what I would consider granny gears for a reel. But my friends being 1:1 & 2:? is .
Fred, I Think I will give 4:1 gears a try in one of my reels. Ill see what Black Pearl has. Or I mean Pro Challenger
I'm still waiting on my Cal's Grease & TSI 321 to get here. Hopefully next week.
Lee, where did you get 4:1 gears for the fathom? I have Black Pearls 4.8:1 gears but wouldn't mind 4:1.
I wondered about that myself but just assumed he meant the 4.8:1 from Alan, Black Pearl. Knowing Lee had purchased 25N gears fro him.
Quote from: day0ne on May 23, 2015, 05:40:57 AM
Lee, where did you get 4:1 gears for the fathom? I have Black Pearls 4.8:1 gears but wouldn't mind 4:1.
I meant 4.8:1, I have a first run set. Thanks RR.
Guys does this this stuff look like Cal's Drag Grease? I purchased it from a place I've not done business with before.
I want to be sure before using it.
Quote from: Rivverrat on May 23, 2015, 07:18:31 PM
Guys does this this stuff look like Cal's Drag Grease? I purchased it from a place I've not done business with before.
I want to be sure before using it.
I thought Cal's grease comes in tan and purple color.
That's the color my Cal's Lite is, kind of muddy purple.
Yes, Jeff --
That also looks like the color I have -- could just be differences in camera or light.
Why is it in a clear container? Has it been bought in bulk and repackaged by some shop?
I buy mine directly from Cal Sheets.
Cal and his son recommend using the tan for regular applications -- and the purple/maroon for very cold conditions -- since it is a little thinner. But the purple will work fine anywhere.
They also recommend using their greases for every part of the reel --
I can't do that, since even at a dealer discount -- their grease is 3 or 4 times the price of Yamaha Marine Blue. And I would not want to pass the price on to my clients -- so I just use Cal's for the drags.
If I was just doing a few reels a year, I might use Cal's on everything -- but then again, I'm not one to be wasteful -- so likely wouldn't.
Best,
Fred
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx130/foakes1/761877CE-6EAB-4538-BB08-64C83BFB31C4_zpsytv1vmbn.jpg) (http://s748.photobucket.com/user/foakes1/media/761877CE-6EAB-4538-BB08-64C83BFB31C4_zpsytv1vmbn.jpg.html)
Thanks Lee it's muddy purple. I just verified from seller it's Cal's. Not the tan grease I wanted. I'll just order a pond of the tan from Scotts next week....
Yup Fred It's been repackaged. Which is fine the fella sells it at a fair price. Got it to me quick to. Dads Ole Tackle, Conroe Texas is the place
I cleaned the drag washers on 2 of my Fathoms & wiped on some Cal's I placed both of them on an Ugly Stick & a new St. Croix rod. I have to say I'm pretty unhappy with these reels at the moment. Nothing changed much. The drags on both reels are still grabbing bobbing the tip of the rod up & down. Prior I had hoped this would diminish with use.
Unless some one has suggestions these reels as they are in their present state will not work for me. Wish I had some how known or found this out earlier. Thinking about it some, there has to be others that that load these reels 60 lb. line & set their drags proper also checking that they are smooth.
I GOT IT! At least I think I did. Partly a thought & partially out of frustration.....OK do in large part to frustration :-[ I tightened the drags down past medieval, stupid tight & repeatedly ran 30 or so yards off all 3 reels at that drag setting. Much improvement after this. They are still not perfect, not glass smooth like my Andros but the drags now work at an acceptable, fishable level for me.
Glad its dark out & I don't have neighbors near by.