It's been a while since I've posted here, I have not bought any reels in a while, all of mine just keep going. Growing up I was aware of old Penn reels, but it wasn't until the last 5 years or so I really discovered what was out there. I have to say I have fallen in love with old Penn spinning reels.
I think it actually started with a conventional reel, a Penn Levelwind 209 I got just about new that was fantastic. I never did anything to the reel, I don't even know if I put in carbon fiber drag washers. I later discovered the spinfishers, where I bought my first one, a great condition 722. It wasn't much later I bought a 722z. Neither reel has had a problem, although I wasn't too happy seeing that plastic crosswind block inside. I had access to a mill at the time, so I made a couple of them out of aluminum and they have been flawless. I would have to say the only thing I wasn't impressed with as the automatic only bail. All my life I closed bails manually, and I was not happy with having to reel to close them. After reading about going bail-less, that's exactly what I did. I cut the wire from the bail, and shaped the cone a little and they work fine this way. It works so well, I honestly could care less if it's a manual bale, or bail-less at this point. I still hate auto bails.
Later I found a really good deal on a 550SS, and I love this reel. I'm not sure why the SS series doesn't get as much love as the spinfishers (or are the SS series considered spinfishers?), but I am fully impressed. You don't see designs and quality like this in reels anymore, unless maybe you are one of those guys paying $400+ for a reel. I'm finding a lot of these older Penn's under $100 online in decent condition. I think the quality and longevity of these beats out a Shimano Sedona from what I've seen, nothing against Shimano.
I grew up after instant anti reverse clutches were standard on reels. Despite that, I have never found any problem with gear and dog anti-reverse reels like was on all reels pre 1990ish. So they rotate backwards 10 degrees when you hook a fish, so what? It's not something I ever think about or notice ever.
The line lay on the older Penn's is really the only thing I don't like about them. It seems consistent across the sizes, for whatever reason Penn chose to use a gear that raises and lowers the spool at a more rapid rate than reels do today. I've seen it mentioned that it was because they were supposedly designed for monofilament fishing line. I don't really see why the more rapid movement would aid mono at all, and that's besides the fact these reels were designed at a time when dacron braid was common enough it should have been considered. Despite that, I have had ZERO problems with my reels using modern spectra or dyneema braids. I don't remember which brand I have, possibly spiderwire 10# on my 722 and 722z. I have regular old 30# Power Pro on my 550SS. Maybe I'm giving up a little casting distance, but I haven't noticed anything dramatic. My 550SS on a St. Croix 7' rod has become my go-to pike rod for casting. I don't fish my 722z as much as I should, but it's been fine. My 722 is mostly setup for light duty stuff, jigging and such. It does cast fine though.
I plan to continue to buy spinfishers and SS series reels, I love them. Somewhat related, I've also always liked Abu Garcia Ambassadeurs for baitcasters. I have two of them, one is an older 5500C, and the other is a newer 5500C3 left hand. I don't know what it is, maybe my giant meat paw hands, but the round baitcasters are so much easier for me to hold on to than any low profile one I've tried. I never really thought about it much, Penn always seemed a spinning reel, or big conventional reel brand to me. It wasn't until now that I'm wondering has Penn pre 2000ish ever made a baitcaster to compete with an Ambassadeur or Calcutta or anything like that? The closest I can find is the pro mag series, and also the 525 mag, which seems like it should be a part of the pro mag series, but seems to be considered different. I see some people have added some magnetic brakes to things like the levelwinds or jigmasters, but that's a little different, more of a casting aid, than a real brake. I can't imagine anyone casting crankbaits all day with a penn #9 levelwind. You could do it, but it would be a little annoying.
Sorry for the long, rambling post. I'm sure you can tell it's that time of year to clean and lube reels again.
P.S. I did have a couple more questions. First is how does the size compare between a Penn 550SS and a Penn 706 or 710? I realize the line capacity listings, but I would like to know how they actual reel size compares. Is it closer to one or the other, or is the 550SS fit squarely between the two in size?
Welcome back.
The penn 930 is about the closest copy of an ambassadeur that I've seen from any reel company. I still think the amby is a better reel. But the 930 isnt far off. And it's a very handsome reel.
Fred was gonna look for a 910 spool for me but I think we both got distracted.
Sweet, I figured there must have been something like that. It's hard to tell with how many things Penn made. Is there any reason you chose the 930 size? It appears Penn made their Levelmatic series from 910 to 940. Assuming the listed line capacities are correct, it seems an Ambassadeur 5500 fits between a 920 and 930, and the 4500 is smaller than the 910. The 6500 appears bigger than the 940. I don't know anything about the non-Swedish Ambassedeurs, and I only own 5500's, and that's because they were the best deal. I think a 4500 would have plenty of capacity for me.
What do you consider to be the shortcomings of the Levelmatic?
[quote author=slugmeister link=msg=450865 date=171106285
The line lay on the older Penn's is really the only thing I don't like about them. It seems consistent across the sizes, for whatever reason Penn chose to use a gear that raises and lowers the spool at a more rapid rate than reels do today. I've seen it mentioned that it was because they were supposedly designed for monofilament fishing line. I don't really see why the more rapid movement would aid mono at all, and that's besides the fact these reels were designed at a time when dacron braid was common enough it should have been considered. Despite that, I have had ZERO problems with my reels using modern spectra or dyneema braids. I don't remember which brand I have, possibly spiderwire 10# on my 722 and 722z. I have regular old 30# Power Pro on my 550SS. Maybe I'm giving up a little casting distance, but I haven't noticed anything dramatic. My 550SS on a St. Croix 7' rod has become my go-to pike rod for casting. I don't fish my 722z as much as I should, but it's been fine. My 722 is mostly setup for light duty stuff, jigging and such. It does cast fine though.
[/quote]
My thoughts on the quick up and down " cross wraps " are better for braided line , less dig in on heaver drag settings . The hour glass on the spool can be fixed with S shaped crosswind block .
Shortcoming isn't the word I'd use. It was trying to copy an idea and cut into the ambassadeur market share and make the choice easier for folks who had penn brand loyalty but wanted that type of reel.
But at the end of the day abu had put in the R&D to make a great reel and done lots of little adjustments along the way to make a better reel. Penn, made something similar.
Semi related example: Like how pacbay makes guides that look a lot like fuji KL guides. Copy all the main points. But the fuji guides will always perform better because they put in the time to develop a great guide, and that's just what it happened to look like. Pacbay saw that fuji had a great selling guide and made something that looked similar. But they didn't put in the development time and it shows in performance.
I'm not anti penn. I have a lot of penn reels, more than any other brand, and love most of them. And to be clear I can't point to a noteworthy flaw in the 930.
But if you put an abu 5500 and a 930 on the table for me to fish with I know which one I'm grabbing. It's just a bit better of a reel. And that's just my opinion. I certainly don't feel like it's authoritative.
That makes sense, It appears the Ambassadeurs are actually cheaper than the Levelmatics. Plus the Ambassadeurs come in left hand, which I prefer. The only thing I see about the Levelmatics is they all came with a bait clicker. I would LOVE to have a bait clicker Ambassadeur, I never understood why they don't have it. I guess it's mainly a casting reel, but still, it seems a really easy addition that really adds versatility. Apparently some of the really old ones had it, but I've never seen a 4500, 5500, or 6500 with one. That was one the reasons I got my Penn 209.
Edit: Well I'll be, it seems the majority of 6500's have a bait clicker.
My thoughts on the quick up and down " cross wraps " are better for braided line , less dig in on heaver drag settings . The hour glass on the spool can be fixed with S shaped crosswind block .
[/quote]
The steeper cross wraps you might have a point, I'm not sure. I don't fish really big fish, and line digging in is not a problem I ever have. Maybe it depends on the line, but it doesn't seem to happen with Power Pro or Spiderwire. I'm not brand biased, I like pretty much any super braid. Mono is another story.
I'm not sure what you mean by hourglass on the spool. I've heard some Penn's need the spool shimmed up or down to get them lined up correctly. Mine haven't had that problem. What do you mean by S shaped crosswind block? My 722 and 722z the block is just that, a block. The 550SS it's an odd shaped part, completely different.
Hour glass is when the top and bottom of the spool are fat and the middle is thin.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/35/17471_10_10_21_12_08_22_35538203.jpeg)
S shape crosswind helps level out the line lay.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/34/17471_02_12_20_9_54_27_34034260.png)
Jason, aren't the 910 and 920 spools interchangeable?
Quote from: Rancanfish on March 22, 2024, 09:08:22 PMJason, aren't the 910 and 920 spools interchangeable?
Maybe. I have a bag of bags of parts and have everything I need to assemble a NFP 910 except a spool. I'm missing one of the levelwind parts needed to make a 930 I know that much. But it hasn't been too high on the to do list or I'd be trying harder to chase it down. It wasn't my intention to take over the thread
Quote from: oldmanjoe on March 22, 2024, 09:00:20 PMHour glass is when the top and bottom of the spool are fat and the middle is thin.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/35/17471_10_10_21_12_08_22_35538203.jpeg)
S shape crosswind helps level out the line lay.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/34/17471_02_12_20_9_54_27_34034260.png)
I looked at mine today, and it kind of has that, but not really. Mine lays relatively flat. It appears that one in the picture is biasing towards the base, which would tell me the drag washer or shim under the spool needs to be thinner. Correct me if I'm wrong about this.
Can you buy the curved S shape crosswinds like that for any of these older Penn's?
I did some research today on the Levelmatics, and I could be wrong, but it appears there are only two sizes. It appears the 910 and 920 are a smaller size, and the 930 and 940 are a slightly larger size. At least according to line capacity, the difference in size does not appear to be huge. The only difference I can find stated online is the 930 originally came with a single knob handle, and the 940 came with a double knob handle. Oddly it appears the opposite for the smaller size, the 910 came with a double handle, and the 920 came with a single handle. I see examples where they have been swapped, so I assume the handles can be interchanged. Supposedly the 930 and 940 are identical reels. I can only assume the 910 and 920 would be as well. I used to be more into baitcasters, but as time goes on I just can't really find much reason to use them over a spinning reel except for quick accurate casts such as shore/cover fishing bass, which is not something I do much.
Here's another completely unrelated question. I see a lot of people buy the bail-less conversion kits for the 704's, which makes sense. 704's are a dime a dozen it seems, and the 706's are way more expensive. First, what is the purpose of that little nub on the 706 just in front of the line roller? Second, what advantage is there to buying the conversion kit for a 704, verses simply cutting the wire off the bail and shaping the cone slightly?
Quote from: slugmeister on March 22, 2024, 10:05:31 PMQuote from: oldmanjoe on March 22, 2024, 09:00:20 PMHour glass is when the top and bottom of the spool are fat and the middle is thin.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/35/17471_10_10_21_12_08_22_35538203.jpeg)
S shape crosswind helps level out the line lay.
(https://alantani.com/gallery/34/17471_02_12_20_9_54_27_34034260.png)
I looked at mine today, and it kind of has that, but not really. Mine lays relatively flat. It appears that one in the picture is biasing towards the base, which would tell me the drag washer or shim under the spool needs to be thinner. Correct me if I'm wrong about this.
Can you buy the curved S shape like that for any of these older Penn's?
Correct a thinner under spool washer will move the bottom hump up .
The S shape cross winds are home made pieces for the older penn
https://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk/topic/398759-braid-friendly-penn-706-with-a-new-crosswind/#comments
There is a bunch of old post there that guys played around with different ideas to correct line lays
Interesting, that looks like it might be something I can do for some of the original spinfishers. It would be pretty tricky to do that for a 722 or my 550SS. If I end up getting a 712, 706, or 704, I might give it a shot.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on March 21, 2024, 11:41:40 PMWelcome back.
The penn 930 is about the closest copy of an ambassadeur that I've seen from any reel company. I still think the amby is a better reel. But the 930 isnt far off. And it's a very handsome reel.
Fred was gonna look for a 910 spool for me but I think we both got distracted.
This may be a 910 spool, Jason —-
I don't have a reel to do a bench match on.
Maybe you can tell by the width measurement.
I have a couple of large drawers of 910-920-930-940 (tel:910-920-930-940) parts.
And this spool looks to match the width of a 910 post.
Best, Fred
I would still like to hear people's thoughts on the 704 and 706. Is the line roller and nub design on the 706 really superior to a 704 with the bail removed? Also, is the bailess kit really better than simply cutting the existing bail wire?
OP, you threw a wide net on your post. Couple of points:
910: Same as 920, excepting 910 has a scalloped metal eccentric switch which is not comfortable. 930 / 940 are the same excepting handle; 920/920/930 all have plastic contoured eccentric switches. The main performance difference vs. Abu is that the Penn series is a tad slower than your standard 45/55/6500C series reel, both gearing and spool diameter when full. I agree, not having clicker on something smaller than 6500 is a miss on Abu's part. I used a jeweler's file to fit black Abu handles to my Levelmatics as it has a longer throw, and have been pleased with the upgrade.
704 / 706 are sized differently, both are surf fishing tanks; bullet proof and simple, just heavy. Cannot offer comparison of 550SS to smaller Z, but 550SS is my main popping reel for stripers. Also have plenty of 4500/5500SS and so on. The only drawback to these is that the AR dogs are getting hard to come by, and that's about the only wear part if you maintain the reel and use relatively within design limits. I have SSV's and SSVI's new in box, but the old dogs with AR dogs simply won't die.
Thank you John for the explanation. I still have your parts sitting on top of my bench it didn't seem like you were in a great rush, but I feel like I should do better.
Are the eccentric switches interchangeable? I'm gonna be assembling a Frankenstein 910 soonish
Good question Jason, and if I get a chance I will look. Hold on parts- I need more, and I have something for you :)
Quote from: thorhammer on March 26, 2024, 12:20:01 PMOP, you threw a wide net on your post. Couple of points:
Yeah, sorry about that, I was getting a little excited at the time.
I realize the 704 and 706 are a little different in size, but they are pretty close to where it doesn't really matter to me. I'd like to add another big tank reel and what I was wondering is if hunting for a 706 was really worth it over a 704 which looks like you can buy them for $40 easily. There's not a lot of 706's, and they are all over $100.
I did just win an auction for a 712z for $32, so I guess I'll see how that does. That one will replace my Penn Fierce. If I like it as much or more than the 722's, I'll probably go for the 704. Unfortunately is seems the new Penn's are not very good, the new Shimano Sienna's seem just as good for like 1/3rd the price. Unfortunately a tab inside the housing to support the shaft broke off, and my Fierce just doesn't seem to run very well without that tab. It's probably 15 years old, it had a good run.
Thorhammer is spot on with Ambassadeur to levelmatic comparison. My 930 was a bit slow due to gearing and spool shape, but a nicely made baitcaster. Fine for bass or catfishing or steelhead/salmon drift fishing, but too slow for my warm water ocean lure fishing.
Not sure how / where you will fish it, but the Z was designed long before braid, so you can use braid backing or all braid on 704 and have plenty of capacity. I'd have no qualms about running 50 or 65 lb braid with a leader or topshot on that reel,and have set them up for big drum fishing exactly that way. Just switch in greased carbon drags and get after it. Not knocking your fierce, but those aren't designed in the same performance class as an SS. The new SS reels, which are the generational descendant of the 700 and Z series, are tanks as well. Your DAM Quicks, Senators, Z's, Jigmasters can all still be running after 50 years and with proper care will go another 50; your sedonas, fierce, baitrunners and stellas will not, in the same way you see a 66 Mustang still rolling but good luck finding ANY 2024 vehicle running 60 years from now when the electronics are no longer supported. Meanwhile, someone will have a crate Ford V8 somewhere in 2066, and that Mustang will still go, at a 100 years old.
There's nothing you said that is wrong. The Fierce is what it is. It was one of Penn's first real attempts to make a quality reel again after absolutely laying an egg throughout the 2000's. They came out with the Torque as the big reel, and the Fierce was the smaller reel that were all metal reels that actually worked good. They are not tanks though, obviously, as mine self destructed already.
I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing that people do not realize you can go on ebay, and for the same price, buy old reels that are higher quality than they are today. It's good because I can still buy reels like a 712z for $32. It's bad because manufacturers will continue to sell China made junk if it keeps selling. I wouldn't even be mad if Penn started making reels in say Mexico, Philippines, or heck, even Malaysia like Shimano does. Shimano Sienna, Sedona, Sahara, etc. are not tanks, but they are usually under $50, so what do you expect? I just bought a Sienna from walmart for $8 clearance as a loaner for people.
As for the braid comment, I guess that's the only thing I don't agree with. Maybe it's a regional thing, but braid was plenty common around here back then, especially with the musky fisherman. The only difference is it was Dacron braid, verses Spectra or Dyneema braid that came out in the 90's. It's WAY before my time, heck even before my grandpa's time, but best I can tell Dacron braid and Nylon Monofilament lines came out about the same time. around 1940. Unless you mean the reels are sized so super braids have crazy line capacity, which they do. I still choose lighter braids just because it both casts farther, and it dives deeper with things such as trolling. I might use 50 pound on something like a 704/706. I think I have 40 pound on my 209 right now. Most of my rods I run 20 pound, which is probably what is going on my 712z.
All I know is I just spool modern Spectra or Dyneema braids like Power Pro straight onto my reels and it works just fine. I usually use no backing unless the spool is crazy overkill. I don't use a topshot in the sense that saltwater fisherman use. I usually use 6'ish of mono as a leader, and for musky and pike I have been using very heavy fluoro and mono as a leader for years, this year I'm going back to Surflon 7x7 steel.
Quote from: foakes on March 23, 2024, 12:09:36 AMQuote from: JasonGotaProblem on March 21, 2024, 11:41:40 PMWelcome back.
The penn 930 is about the closest copy of an ambassadeur that I've seen from any reel company. I still think the amby is a better reel. But the 930 isnt far off. And it's a very handsome reel.
Fred was gonna look for a 910 spool for me but I think we both got distracted.
This may be a 910 spool, Jason —-
I don't have a reel to do a bench match on.
Maybe you can tell by the width measurement.
I have a couple of large drawers of 910-920-930-940 (tel:910-920-930-940) parts.
And this spool looks to match the width of a 910 post.
Best, Fred
If you can wait for a couple of days Fred I'll locate my stored spools and compare what I have and let you know. At an immediate guess though what you've pictured does look like a 29M-910 (910/20 width spool). You'll have to bear with me as I'm getting back into it after ten years away.
Dave.
I don't mean to be presumptive but I believe Fred has already mailed that out, so we'll know for sure when I try to install it.
Thanks, Dave —-
I sent the smaller 910 spool to Jason last week.
Best, Fred
I got my 712z, and did a clean and grease, as well as added carbon fiber drag washers. Pretty much my standard practice for any reel. The thing works great. Physical size the 712 seems to be be very close in size to a 3000 series reel today, and the line capacity matches that. This got me thinking how big a jump there is between the 712/710's and the 706. I now have a 712z and a 722z. They are not a mile apart in size, the 722 is similar to a 2000 if not a 2500 series reel today. It seems to me the 714 would be splitting hairs so much between a 712 and 722.
The odd thing to me is the 716 and the 722 were made side by side for decades. According to Mystic the 716 came first in 1966, and the 722 later in the mid 70's. Oddly, the 722 appears to have a slightly higher line capacity than the 716. The gear ratios are the same. The Weights are the same. So what does one have that the other doesn't that allowed Penn to make both for about 30 years together? The 720 I can at least see has a slightly lower gear ratio, but otherwise is pretty much the same as the 722 or 716 besides that. Then again if they were splitting hairs like the 714, maybe the marginally smaller 716 isn't too crazy.
I'm just rambling now. Maybe someone can share some thoughts on why someone would choose a 716 or a 714? It's still kinda odd they didn't make a 708 or something.
Nope, that's the kind of observation we geek out on until someone comes up with an answer, lol.
Most reel manufacturers of high quality equipment would offer 4 to 7 models of the same type of reel —- only in various sizes —- from large to medium to tiny.
As you discovered, the difference between a Spinfisher 714 vs, a 716 —- is basically just the spool and rotor size for line capacity.
The larger difference between the 720/722 reels and the Spinfisher models is the drive-train engineering.
The steel double supported worm-drive in the Spinfisher Series (greenies, Z's, SS's, etc) is vastly superior to the gearing systems in the 720/722 models.
There are two types of lifetime reels —- one lasts for the Angler's Lifetime, and more. The other lasts the reel's Lifetime.
Both are fine reels, but one is seriously stronger than the other.
Not everyone could or would buy the more expensive Spinfishers when they were new. Penn needed a less expensive alternative.
Best, Fred
The 714 & 716, like the 712, are higher quality worm gear driven. The 720 & 722 aren't worm gear driven and more of an econo reel. I continue to be amazed at the prices some people will pay for a 720 & 722 when there are so many similar size worm gear driven reels out there to choose from for less $.
Oh, I see now. So originally the 714 and 716 were one body size, and the 710 and 712 were the larger body. I know most, if not all the internals of a 710 and 712 swap, and the difference is the top end with the spool, rotor, and whatever else for the line capacity. Is this the same case for the 714 and 716? It is the 720 and 722 that is the odd duck, when it came out almost a decade later. It is a middle size, some corners cut, lower cost everymans reel. If you take away those, then the numbering makes sense, the bigger the number, the smaller the line capacity. Of course I'm ignoring the left handed versions like a 711 or 713, but I can't imagine there's much difference with them internally. I still think it's odd there is such a huge leap in size between a 710/712 and the 706/704.
So it appears the 700 (which I've heard very little about), came out at the same time as the 704 in 1966. Both appear to have identical line capacity, same gear ratio, same bail setup. So what was the purpose of the 700, or why did the 704 go on, and the 700 get discontinued?
Dang it, now I want to add a 714 to the collection.
I have one, but not for sale,... yet.
It's a Greenie, a nice med.-small spinner size. The lower 1/2 compares well to Quick Microlite, but (of course) the rotor & spool are larger. It's a shelfie, and if I were to start using it, I'd try'n change-out that stupid Teflon drag washer.
Would anyone have a 710 aluminum spool laying around? I don't care about color.
Well, you guys just cost me some money. :d
I already had my 712z, but I'm not super excited about the very low bail which looks like it would be almost impossible to use bailess. Other than that it looks like a good reel.
Yesterday there was a 710 I just couldn't pass up, although it has a plastic spool. I didn't see a spool under $40 online, but then I saw a 710z for a price I couldn't pass up figuring I'll take the spool from that one, and resell it. After more reading on this forum I realized the 712 gears (4.1:1) fit in the 710 (3.6:1), plus I'm not as impressed with the bail on the 712 as I am the 710. I then found another 712z for a really cheap price. I am currently planning on swapping the gears between the two and keeping both the 710's. Assuming nothing major is wrong with them, I'm pretty sure I can make more money back from the 712z's than I paid. The 712z I already have cleaned up nice, and it's a good reel. The one I just bought looks rougher, but supposedly works otherwise. The 710z I just bought has some rougher paint, I might try stripping that and I like the bare aluminum look I've seen.
I would still be interested in buying an aluminum 710 spool if anyone has one, as long as it's cheaper than buying a third 710. I have plenty of 712 parts to trade for it. I'd trade a perfect working 712z for one.