Justin, I believe we've got our work cut out for us ;D. Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zD3mCkvozpg&feature=relmfu
id like to send him my penn 4500ss
Your right Sal, you and Justin are going to have to step it up! ;D Seriously though he put a lot of work into that reel. He even made the eared washers No double ss dogs and 12 tooth ratchet though. Thats a lot of stress on that gear train if the stock dogs fail, talk about a knuckle buster. I'm impressed but you can do better. How about eared carbon fibers with eared metals. If you design it right you may even find stock keyed washers that will work and the eared carbons will be easier to cut. You'd get more drag with less washers. I'll be waiting for your next post with the prototype finished. Sometime next week? ;D Bob
Guys,
For those not familiar with the SS series a couple of questions. Does the ss normally have bearings in the spool and whats the purpose of bearings in the spool. Ive a Daiwa spinner with 2 bearings in the spool and a large plate similar to the one the guy machined in the video. I just thought it was an old design, please explain.
Seems to be a talented and resourseful chap, anyone from here try to contact him and share some thoughts and maybe welcome him to the forum here?
Leo
That's pretty amazing craftsmanship.
Great work indeed - thanks for the post Sal.
I'd be disinclined to add those spool bearings, but can fully appreciate why he's done so.
Sure is some quality craftmanship - and raises the bar substantially ;)
Cheers, Justin
Somewhere I read that before Stellas and Saltigas were introduced that the Japanese jiggers modified the Penn SS's for their high performance jigging reels. Some of the Japanese webites still offer some aftermarket spools and various parts for the classic Penn SS Series. Here is a link for one. You have to scroll through it. http://www.gaar.co.jp/custom/custom.htm#for_penn Lots of $$$ for some of that stuff though.
LTM, the penn ss series do not have bearings in the spool. I believe the reason for the bearings is to keep the spool from tilting under high drag pressures. If you look at the drawing at about 2:01 you will see that the aluminum piece on the new shaft holds a large drag washer under the spool and the inner races of the bearings ride on the center portion. I'm sure he is able to get more drag but I still believe the stock dogs snd ratchet are the weak link. If they fail all that force would be transfered to the gears and to the handle. If you held the handle and kept it from moving something will have to give. Either the threaded portion of the pivot will strip or break or the gears will strip. JMO Bob
I think the rachet and dogs are plenty strong. I'm more worried about the gears under pressure.
I am also puzzled as to how some of these spinners can withstand horrendous drag pressures without failing. Specifically, why the spool shaft or reel foot don't bend. Or, do they????
I believe he made that reel weaker, that was a lot of material he removed from that spool. He also downsized the main shat and that's a no no in my book :-\.
I see what he was trying to do, but I don't believe its worth it on the 750. The 9500 would be a good candidate, but I would just do one bearing at the bottom. If I get a chance I'll try to kill one of my 9500 spools ;D and give it a shot.
Leo, as Bob mentioned, it's all about friction. The bearings will help keep things smooth when a nice size fish is taking line. bottom line, It helps with drags and alignment. I do think it's overkill on this one though.
George, we were typing at the same time ;D.
Yes the spool shaft does bend at times and yes the foot does snap on a big fish at times also. All and all these are nice reels, but need to be fished within reasons. I heard of guys targeting 200lb fish with the 9500 :-\, A 100lb fish should not be a problem with the 9500, but a 200 lb fish might be a little much.
Most of the times the crosswind gear wears out before anything else, this might be a sacrificial gear on these reels, but I'm not 100% on it. I like all of my SS, I've been using them for a long time and they never failed me.
Sal
Bryan, if you think about the way the ss series works. The rotor is attached to the pinion bearing with the ratchet atatched to the rotor. when the dogs are engaged they prevent the rotor from going backwards. The pressure is applied to the ratchet and dogs instead of the pinion. When they fail the rotor turns the pinion which turns the main and crosswind gears. As long as the dogs hold the force is not transfered to the gears. I guess if you kept trying to turn the handle and reel that would be a different story. Reeling while the fish is taking line has always been a no no for spinners because of the line twist it causes. High drags and the backplay with the brass dogs and ratchet can damage the soft brass dogs. The gear train would be vulnerable when trying to recover line on a fish not taking line at high drag settings. Using the rod to pump the fish and recover line as the rod is dropped would take some stress off the gearing. I still believe these are great reels but they were never designed for this abuse and whatever the cause its asking for trouble. JMO Bob
mechanically speaking, you'll be amazed how strong the rachet and dogs are. They may get a bit damaged and may need replacing after a trips, but the ability to sheer solid metal takes more force than you think. That is all that I was saying.
Gears take a lot of stress when trying to gain line. The shreading of gears are a lot easier sheering the dog or rachet.
Quote from: LTM on October 13, 2012, 04:57:52 PM
Guys,
For those not familiar with the SS series a couple of questions. Does the ss normally have bearings in the spool and whats the purpose of bearings in the spool. Ive a Daiwa spinner with 2 bearings in the spool and a large plate similar to the one the guy machined in the video. I just thought it was an old design, please explain.
Seems to be a talented and resourseful chap, anyone from here try to contact him and share some thoughts and maybe welcome him to the forum here?
Leo
Hey Leo,
The SS series did not originally have spool bearings but it was famously the source for Asian modders as it was a worthy and sturdy platform long before many others. Spool bearings are to reduce binding under heavy load as the shaft flexes some regardless of material due to it's length. Pretty much all of the high end reels above say, a Sustain FG have them so that their drags are smoother at the higher end of their range.
best
These reels are fine just the way they are. On many reels, I happen to like bushings vs bearings at some areas. The 9500 has two bushings, one on top and one at the bottom of the spool, I just wish they were brass instead of plastic. I am going to do some work on the 9500, I'm thinking of removing the lower bushing and replace it with a bearing, just to see if I notice anything different from the two. Also, that bearing gets activated only when the fish is tugging and taking line. As for the flexing, I would think that if it had to, the shaft would bend at the area that comes out of the rotor, not in the spool or housing.
A little while back I contacted Alan Hawk and asked for his thoughts on the ss spinners, he seemed to like them.
Ok after watching the gentleman above, I had to give it a shot. This isn't anything like he did, I'm just adding a bearing in a 9500 spool. I did not take any dimentions, I just used what I had. I did this more for myself, I'm curious to see if I can feel the difference between the bearing and the bushing.
Here are some pictures:
I started by removing the bushing
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/015-2.jpg)
I then created a pocket to accept the bearing
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/016-1.jpg)
Next I shaved the gear shaft, I could have tried to find a bearing that would have fit, but like I said I used what I had
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/017-1.jpg)
gradually I tested the bearing for a nice tight slip fit
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/018.jpg)
I then set the bearing in place
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/019-1.jpg)
Installed the drag and drive plate
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/020.jpg)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/021-1.jpg)
And reassembled the reel
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/024.jpg)
The reel has a tiny rub on one side, not bad for doing the job freehand, it feels good and I'm sure the rub will go away when a replace the top bushing with the correct size.
I will need to test this reel on the water to see if I notice any difference from the stock spool though.
A lathe would have been nice on this one.
Sal
Great work Sal - particularly in 'freehand'.
Will look forward to your post-fish appraisal.
QuoteOn many reels, I happen to like bushings vs bearings at some areas.
x2.
It could be a function of being on an island in the South Pacific (where parts can be hard to get and expensive), but the idea of having 14 ball-bearings (as several modern spinners do) does nothing for me.
Without regular, comprehensive maintenance, they just don't last.
At very least, we certainly won't see them being passed down through the generations.
But this is clearly a personal view.
It's equally valid to build a reel that works sublimly in the short term as it is to build a reel that works reliably/competently over lifetimes.
Sal - Will look into milling some brass bushings for my 9500 and we'll compare notes ;) ;D
All the best, Justin
Justin, you know how to find me if you ever come up with the brass bushings for this one ;).
Later buddy, Sal
Very nice, Sal. You are a bold man. I probably wouldn't have tried that machining without a lathe. Glad it worked out. I'm eagerly awaiting your report on the reel's performance.
Another thing, I never noticed the large CF washer under the spool before. I had just assumed the 9500 was just an overgrown 8500. Not so! I can see that the 9500's drags put this reel in another ball park.
George, you're right! I don't recommend doing this without a lathe. It took me over 2 hours just to fine tune it, marking and shaving many times untill I got it right. Also keep in mind that a new spool costs over $70. I went into this thinking that I was going to damage that spool, This way there wouldn't be any disappointments.
Yes that is a nice size washer, this reel should put out 20lb of drag with no problems.
Sal
Very nice Sal. Is there anything you can't do freehand?
WOW Sal, awesome that you went for it! ;D
To expand slightly on the bearing versus bushing thingee...I don't know squat about reel design to be sure but I first came across bearing in the spools when I started fishing Stellas. At the max end of their range with the drag hammered down force increases quite dramatically as the spool empties (as you can imagine) and reaches their rated max which is well in excess of 40lbs (they are rated to 55lbs max drag). People routinely preset the super spinners to 30lbs and just drop the tip and palm the spool for even more drag to prevent beasts from making it back to their cave etc.
I have been spooled before (in Panama) and at the end the rod tip was pointed directly at the fish otherwise I couldn't hand onto the rod. After getting dumped I tried turning the spool by hand and nearly couldn't budge it at all...these are the sorts of forces that bushings cannot handle without deformation and binding and are what spool bearings were added to improve.
As I understand it, the Asian guys modding Penn SS reels were some of the very first to figure this out. :)