So I have a couple small surface irons that need new rings and hooks so instead of paying a landing a couple bucks to do it I did what anyone on this site would do, I spent about $150 to buy all the stuff to do it myself! I bought a ring kit from Bryan and some smooth jaw parallel pliers and a butane touch from Amazon.
Today I spent an hour and gave it a try on several sized rings. I used the black flux and thicker silver wire. I had a lot of failures but a couple turned out good.
I had a hard time getting the biggest wire rings edges to match up well. I'm assuming the rings were cut with bolt cutters because the edges were bent and angled. I had an easier time lining up everything on the smaller sized rings.
Here's some pics of the equipment and my results...
You can use a small file to flatten the ends. You want zero gap.
You should put the ring on the jig before soldering it! >:D
I'm a DIYer myself so I will commonly take this route. I suppose I should come up with a video to show you how I solder or braze the jumper rings.
But before that, I guess one was close the jump rings. Are used to duck bill pliers when I either in and Twista jump rings in opposite direction to close the gap between the open ends of the jump rings. Commonly, the rings clothes with a little snap as a two ends meet together. I'm not sure if you're getting this type of action PJ when you're closing the rings. There is usually a little gap if any when the jump rings close. I didn't take a toothpick and apply the flux to the ends of the jump rings that you have shown in your photo. And then heat up that Flux so it boils away and it cleans the ends of the jumper rings ready for solder. Once cleaned, The jump ring is heated till the ends are red hot and that solder is applied with a little gap as you have done. It appears he has soldering really well but I'm not sure if there's a gap in your jump rings or not.
Here is my findings for the court... Firstly to get the gap to be tight, twist the ring offset just enough to over close the gap after installing it on the lure/hook/swivel/? then twist the ring back to align it, this way it will have some pressure and fully close the gap. then reclean, apply flux then heat/solder.
Until confidence that comes with practice just test the part with a strain. Why guess? No one is watching right now, right? ^-^
I'm 0 for 1 trying to figure this out. Like the post. I have a Tady 2A I believe that I once called my fish finder, put an oversized split ring on it and haven't caught anything on it. Even in Bay Of LA. ;)
Quote from: Bryan Young on January 15, 2024, 09:18:31 AMI'm a DIYer myself so I will commonly take this route. I suppose I should come up with a video to show you how I solder or braze the jumper rings.
But before that, I guess one was close the jump rings. Are used to duck bill pliers when I either in and Twista jump rings in opposite direction to close the gap between the open ends of the jump rings. Commonly, the rings clothes with a little snap as a two ends meet together. I'm not sure if you're getting this type of action PJ when you're closing the rings. There is usually a little gap if any when the jump rings close. I didn't take a toothpick and apply the flux to the ends of the jump rings that you have shown in your photo. And then heat up that Flux so it boils away and it cleans the ends of the jumper rings ready for solder. Once cleaned, The jump ring is heated till the ends are red hot and that solder is applied with a little gap as you have done. It appears he has soldering really well but I'm not sure if there's a gap in your jump rings or not.
I watched a lot of videos so I had a basic understanding of how it should be done. I closed the rings as best I could so that the cut ends were touching when I bent them back. The thing I noticed on the largest rings was one end of the ring was bent slightly towards the center opening of the ring when I bent the ends back together. Basically I couldn't get the up/down part of the rings to line up as good as the left/right sides. It's hard to explain but I'll take a pics when I'm back home next weekend....
Not sure what you are saying but sometimes you have to give the rings a twist.
Quote from: pjstevko on January 16, 2024, 05:11:57 AMI watched a lot of videos so I had a basic understanding of how it should be done. I closed the rings as best I could so that the cut ends were touching when I bent them back. The thing I noticed on the largest rings was one end of the ring was bent slightly towards the center opening of the ring when I bent the ends back together. Basically I could get the up/down part of the rings to line up as good as the left/right sides. It's hard to explain but I'll take a pics when I'm back home next weekend....
I think I understand what you're saying. What might help in squaring up the ring ends is to run a fine metal file or a Dremel cut-off disk between the ends before the final squeeze closing the gap.
This would ensure a tight square fit. However, while making it look good, it also would slow down the process.
Good idea on the Dremel cut off wheel.
I think PJ means that the rings are no longer round. Check to see if the rings came that way, or if you are bending them out of round. You need to open and close like a hinge, and not bend one end inwards or outwards.
I am not so good at this myself, but I can get some good brazed joints mixed in with some clunkers. Here is some stuff that I have learned:
1. You want a capillary action to pull rather braze through the gap. It is the size of the gap that is important for strength. From what I have read, edges actually touching is not good (less surface area to bond and less flow), and too big a gap is no good either. Ideal is about half the thickness of a piece of paper (0.0015 in). We won't ever get that exact, but if the ring ends are not flat and parallel, the gap can get pretty large for too much of the joint.
2. Too much flux plus a big gap can lead to flux being trapped inside the joint. You want flux in the gap, and a thin coating on each side as far as you want the braze to travel. That one photo shows a lot more flux than I would use, and not far enough past the gap. I thin the black flux with water once it gets old and thick.
3. Use enough braze to fully fill the gap, cover the edges, and go down the ring a bit. Most of the joints look a bit starved in your photos.
4. Don't heat too hot for too long. The flux makes an oxygen free environment and also is a wetting agent to help the flow. I would not burn the flux off first and then braze.
Focus the tip of the blue flame right at the gap. The brazing material will want to flow first to the hottest point. Once the flux turns clear (this means that you have almost reached ideal temp), move the silver wire toward the gap. The stainless should now just be starting to turn red. If you time it just right, the silver flows right in and makes a perfect clean joint that needs no touch up.
The heat timing is the tough part for me. For real welders, this is probably a piece of cake. If I screw this part up, I find it is better to start from scratch with a fresh ring than try to rescue a botched braze.
5. Don't rush to the quench. It can lead to cracks/weakening (differences in thermal expansion of the materials). The silver has to be fully hardened first. Austenitic stainless doesn't stiffen like regular steel on a fast quench, so that big blast of steam is not doing what we think. We just need some higher heat and water to clear off any of the water soluble flux residue.
6. Don't worry about it too much. Test a few, and you will be able to see what good enough looks like. If you did a bend /break test between your ring ands a swivel or hook, you might be surprised on what fails first.
A bit more in depth here on brazing:
https://lucasmilhaupt.com/EN/Brazing-Academy/Brazing-Fundamentals.htm (https://lucasmilhaupt.com/EN/Brazing-Academy/Brazing-Fundamentals.htm)
-J
I got my kit from Bryan on Monday. My first project was replacing hooks and rings on some old, successful surface irons. I got good results on the first try for each of them.
I noticed the rings have one pretty flat and one bevelled side at the opening. I used a Dremel cut-off wheel to flatten the bevel, loaded on the hook and jig, joined the ring, flux, heat, solder, Go!
Next, I decided to ring some 2/0 Gamakatsu heavy duty bait hooks. This brought the challenge. I ended up with solder blobs nearly filling the ring, solder on only one side of the join, scorched rings, hooks and fingers, etc.
Cleaning my glasses and using a bright light were good improvements. I'm experimenting with lowering the heat setting on my torch so I can use the thinner solder wire. I'm at about 50% success rate but improving.
Jack
In an effort to get a better alignment of the ring edges to close better I bought a dremel kit to use the cutting disks.
Hopefully I'll have some time this weekend to give it another shot
You guys can do it. I have faith in the both of you. And if I can do it, anyone can. I'm not the most coordinated person in the world but one of the least.
mapp gas works really well!!!
Small imperfections can be cleaned up with a conical pink grinding stone on a dremel tool Start with a pink stone and finish with a white stone. You can then use a red rouge polishing compound on a cotton buffing bit to give it a nice shine. You will also need one of those little dremel dressing blocks to occasionally grind the solder out of the pours in the stones and renew the abrasive surface.
It's tedious to do for large imerfections so it's easier and faster to just start over with improved alignment and soldering technique.
A mini butane torch gets the braze area hot enough in seconds and has a nice concentrated flame. With my mapp torch, I'm going to burn all the paint off my jig if I don't melt it first. Maybe if I had one of those mini torch setups with an oxygen blend...
-J
In the spirt of learning I decided to film 3 attempts at soldering a couple rings. I uploaded the videos to yt for your viewing pleasure and critique. The first one I think turned out the best and passed the twist test. The next two I did I used thicker rings and they failed the twist test and I think it's because I applied the solder when the ring metal wasn't hot enough. Please watch the videos and let me know how I can improve my soldering.
Attached are pics of the rings and flux applications.
Video links
https://youtu.be/HzErGYpOZXs?si=5pTeS0vEt8nWZDTL
https://youtu.be/VqHfXKF6iB4?si=CNOtUGmiF6zOhZAw
https://youtu.be/1fe74YccniY?si=AYrqmqOnUOGddudN
very nice work. mapp gas????
It always thought MAPP gas flame was hotter than butane and propane, I looked it up and was wrong. I have a small oxacetylene torch that burns considerably hotter and the tips are much better than my butane torch. Unfortunatly I sold my acetylene and oxygen bottles several years ago....:0( MAPP gas should work better for the smaller rings.
Butane 3578°F
MAP 3600°F
Propane 3560°F
Oxacetylene 5600°F to 6300°F
Looks like too much flux to me. In the first, the flux cooks down properly and you can see the actual ring when you add the solder. In the second and third, you are putting the solder over the flux, and probably trapping some flux inside the joint.
Just a small amount of flux, only where you want the solder to go, and put the solder on the gap, not on one side of it.
Regarding butane vs other torches, my inexpensive butane mini gets the ring red in a couple seconds, and has a nice pinpoint flame when adjusted tight. It has two adjustments, one for gas volume and one for air blend.
-J
What brand is it, air adjustment might be nice to have
Quote from: Keta on February 05, 2024, 12:29:51 AMWhat brand is it, air adjustment might be nice to have
Blazer ES1000.
Thank you.
Thanks fellas on your sharing info. I still am learning in the ring thing. Just like a dummy ive sold a nice small aceta/oxy torch set perfect for what it could do with any size rings. This set up soldered ribs and sights on guns and repairs to rifle bolt knobs and other things. Moving Alaska i knew acetalene would be very costly to obtain in my remote site away from the road system i have struggled with welding rings ever since.
The temp. of flame types are good info. The area away from the tip of the flame is colored with different shades and colors. This is important to pay attention to . Even now i am reminded that the hotter temps of a flame is out at the outer part of the tapered burning, even out more.
Some one here can chime in on the technical wording butt its worth noting, its out further away from the flame colors where the heat is the hottest and more pure from oxygen contaminates. gst.
The tip of the blue flame is the hottest part of a oxacetylene flame.
Brazing rings for hooks and lures requires heating just a small amount of metal, just where the braze is going to go ideally. A good mini butane will provide up to 2500F of heat, which is over twice as hot as you want the ends of the ring to get.
From the product instructions, it sounds like you want to heat to the liquidous phase of the braze, which for 56% silver is 1200F.
Looking at the color charts for heating steels, 1200 is a cherry red. A bright red is getting past 1500. If you are getting into the oranges, you are close to pushing past the published limit of the fluxes.
Looks to me like we are going way too hot in the videos. With the right amount of flux, that black Harris flux should turn clear as it approaches silver brazing temp. Hold the brazing wire really close to the zone, ready to go, but not close enough to melt. Touch straight into to the gap, and it will fill the gap first and the spread to both ends of the flux.
More heat is not better. A pinpoint torch is a better torch that a hotter torch for this job.
As I mentioned before, my better brazes happened when I didn't screw up and shoot past the desired heat range. Come to think of it, I should probably just practice hitting the perfect temp, rather than be pleasantly surprised when it happens :) I really should be better at this by now.
The flux is pretty nasty stuff healthwise, You don't want to handle it, or breath the fumes when brazing. The instructions recommend a well ventilated area and away from food and drink- wash your hands afterwards, but there are videos of folks doing this on their kitchen table next to a beer- yikes. I saw a video from a professional welder, and he was doing his rings outdoors. That probably tells us something.
Here is the SDS for the Harris black flux that many of us are using:
https://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/US/EN/MSDS_lib/ZLE_SDS_NA-EN-200000007165.pdf (https://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/US/EN/MSDS_lib/ZLE_SDS_NA-EN-200000007165.pdf)
Even us layman can follow the last part of section 8 (EXPOSURE CONTROLS / PERSONAL PROTECTION)
-J
Thanks for the MSDS link.
You do not want to melt the solder with the flame, it should melt when you touch it to the joint. Pre heat the solder as you heat the ring.
I put new rings and a hook on a small surface iron today. I think these turned out great!
Ok it's been a while since I've asked a really dumb question. Time to reset that clock. Sorry to use this thread.
Do people also solder these types of rings? In my mind that seems like it would be really strong. Am I crazy here?
PJ it's been awesome watching you aquire this new skill. Scarily it's leading me to wonder if I can learn this sorcery.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on February 08, 2024, 04:20:11 AMOk it's been a while since I've asked a really dumb question. Time to reset that clock. Sorry to use this thread.
Do people also solder these types of rings? In my mind that seems like it would be really strong. Am I crazy here?
PJ it's been awesome watching you aquire this new skill. Scarily it's leading me to wonder if I can learn this sorcery.
There's no need to solder a split ring because you can buy extra strong split rings. But you can solder a ring to that hook and lure...
I appreciate your kind words but it's not too hard to learn. Just take a little practice
@JasonGotaProblem ive soldered split rings before. It depends on the size of the lure and what I'm fishing for. For small game like trout, no but for Bluefin Tuna, I've soldered split rings for the added assurance that the spit ring will not separate.
Those look great PJ!
What did you do different?
-J
PJ, that's some great work.
Quote from: jurelometer on February 08, 2024, 07:56:52 AMThose look great PJ!
What did you do different?
-J
I used minimal flux, waited a few extra seconds for it to burn off completely and then added the silver just as the ends of the ring were turning red.....