Hey there Guys,
The new Penn Torque 25N is a reel I have been very curious about as I used to own a Torque 300. They are rock solid tanks and if there is one thing Penn knows it is Star Drag reels.
The older Torque series suffered from being over built (heavy) and gear ratios that were too fast for some applications (but better for others) and did not succeed against more refined options from Daiwa (Saltiga) and Shimano (Trinidad). I was hoping to take a good hard look at one of the newer Torques, explore how they might work for Vertical Jigging as well as traditional West Coast fishing and fortunately a friend had a hard fished one that needed service so I could rebuild it and get some photos of reel innards porn ;D and play with it a bit.
I couldn't resist and mounted it up on a rod to see how it balanced:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_16_07_17_4_10_33_193252173.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19326)
Not too wide and very workable for vertical jigging, casting iron or live baiting. Caitlyn had to give it a sniff :):
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_16_07_17_4_10_32_193242272.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19325)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_16_07_17_4_10_32_193231019.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19324)
Just a little wider than my thumb and rated to hold 370yards of 65lb braid:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_16_07_17_4_10_33_19327202.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19328)
Penn has what they call "versa handle" which is just marketing speak for being able to adjust the handle length depending on application. The longer setting will provide more cranking power at the expense of a little speed and seems perfect:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_16_07_17_4_10_33_193262304.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19327)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_16_07_17_4_10_34_193281477.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19329)
Ok, that's the required beauty contest, let's get to work :D. The schematic we will be using as our reference can be found here: http://s7d5.scene7.com/is/content/purefishing/407-TRQ25N_Rev_1pdf
A Torx 10 quickly removes the 3 screws (39) on the Left Side Plate (27):
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_19_176721331.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17673)
Breaking the reel into 3 parts to work on:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_26_176891672.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17690)
The Left Side Plate (27) showing the rather unique Click Housing (95) which allows Penn to give you 3 click settings: Off, light and heavy. Useful for fishing live baits:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_18_17669455.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17670)
Which we need to remove via 2 screws (63) to access the Left Side Bushing (40) and LS Bearing (55A).
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_19_17673831.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17674)
The small Spring Covers (62C) can be removed as needed to get to the Click Pins and Springs (62 B-D) and I took this photo for your reference but did not proceed further as all was in perfect working order. That "E-Clip" that you see is for the button itself if you need to remove it:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_24_176841958.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17685)
This brings us to the Spool (29). Here is a shot of the left side. The black plastic Click Ratchet (81) comes off with some gentle prying revealing one of the spool bearings (55L). Take your time here and work "side to side" or use a dowel to protect the spool. The fit is tight and you don't want to damage your spool:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_23_176802033.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17681)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_23_176811668.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17682)
And the right side which you remove the Retaining Ring (71c) the Spool Driver (71B) and the right side bearing (55L):
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_25_176861905.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17687)
This image shows the proper order of the assembly and the Spindle (71). The key is to make sure both bearings are on the same side as the "stop" in the middle. If you assemble it with the rt. side bearing on the wrong side of the stop the left side plate won't go on by about 2 mm and you will be scratching your head for hours as to what you did wrong (ask me how I know this :-[ ). The Penn Schematic is a little cryptic in this regard.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_16_07_17_4_10_31_193221188.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19323)
If you replace the Right Side Bearing, Spool Driver and Retaining Ring then thread the Spindle in from the right side (the stop passes through the Spool Driver easily) you can't go wrong and the left side will close very easily:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_24_17682209.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17683)
The owner asked me to return it in original configuration so I did not pull the shields on the bearings. I really need to get one of Alan Tani's bearing packers so that I can pump fresh grease past the shields without having to remove them. These are very small bearings and I feared damaging the retaining clips if I was too aggressive trying to get them out (nor am I a tech center, just a reel geek, so I can't easily replace anything I break :().
Ok, so slather all of that with your choice of speed lube and back it all goes.
Then we come to the Frame (183) where we find that the reel foot is permanently pinned. This is a mixed bag as it simplifies things for everyone but it leads to a spot where salt can collect and start it's damage:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_24_176832015.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17684)
What I do is flood them with Corrosion-X and then scrub with an old toothbrush that has remnants of grease in it to remove the crusty bits. The reel foot should be rinsed after every outing but you can also spray some salt away on it for protection.
As well, on the back side of the Right Side Plate we can see some salt crystals where it has worked it's way behind the spool. The question cam up as to what material the plate was made of and Penn confirms that it is anodized Aluminum:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_25_176851350.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17686)
After wiping it down I do the same with the toothbrush leaving a very thin oil/grease film for protection. That's the Pinion (13) poking up through the side plate by the way. It was entirely unaffected.
Ok, let's start on the Right Side Assembly (1). A quick look at the eccentric Lever (21) with it's Sems Screw (22) and Washer (26A). Not much to do here. Clean, lube and replace.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_32_17706749.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17707)
This is a good opportunity to remove the Spool Tension Cap (26B). This is not so much a cast control (and it has little effect on free spool) as it is a shim to center the spool in the frame so it doesn't rattle when casting. Those familiar with Penn Senators will recognize this.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_21_176771859.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17678)
We'll grease those threads:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_21_176781845.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17679)
And seeing as that is the Spool Spindle/Shaft peaking out there we will put a drop of Corrosion-X on there to lube it and the bearing it rests on:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_22_176791340.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17680)
Below the Handle we see a very common place for salt to collect:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_16_07_17_4_31_45_193311435.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19332)
We'll clean that up and move on. All very familiar territory with the star clicker and belleville washers etc. as we take off the bits:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_25_17601559.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17688)
With the complete Handle Assembly (24) below . From Right to Left There is the Handle Nut Lock (111A) and it's Screw (32), the Tension Washer (8B), Drag Star (10), Graphite Washer (4A), clicker bits (8 and 10B), Tension Washers (18), a tiny Shim (8A), and the handle Ball Bearing (55).
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_16_07_17_4_34_18_19332515.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19333)
This frees things up to remove 3 more Torx Screws (38) and the Right Side Assembly (1, RSA) is Free:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_26_176881458.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17689)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_33_177081017.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17709)
Here we can see the Bearing Sleeve (98S) above, that goes inside the Anti-Reverse Bearing (98B) which has remained inside the RSA. It is a hexagon-ally shaped one but drops out for service as needed (below):
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_27_17693255.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17694)
A look at the beautiful stainless Main Gear (5):
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_30_177021226.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17703)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_31_177031384.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17704)
Which simply all lifts off giving you this assembly in order. The eared washers function effectively as 2 washers making this (3 x 2) functionally a 6+1 stack:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_30_17701503.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17702)
Below we find the Anti Reverse Ratchet (98) with it's "Ambassadeur-style" back up Dogs (15). Note how they grip the Ratchet now to guide your re-assembly. They rest on the Dog Pins (158) which like the Yoke Pins (12A), Yoke Springs (18A) and Jack (11) all are simply held in by a little grease and rest in the Right Side Plate (1A). When the RSA is replaced they all have little nooks that seal them in place
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_30_17700483.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17701)
The balancing act that all who have worked on star drags are familiar with has begun :D where you need to keep the assembly steady in your hand or bits will go flying. All the parts merely rest in receptacles so prepare your landing zone in advance! :)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_27_17691114.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17692)
Looking at the backside of the RSA we see those previously mentioned nooks, the ARB in it's housing, a pinion Bearing (55B) held in by a Retaining Ring (13R) with the Eccentric (19), Eccentric Bushing (26) and it's Spring (20) at the top:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_27_176922052.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17693)
With a close up of the Eccentric in proper position for your reference:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_28_17694959.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17695)
On the Right Side Plate (1A) there is another Retaining Ring (26R) and pinion Bearing (55D) that should be serviced:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_26_17690534.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17691)
Before I took apart the RSA and removed the Handle I noted some salty schmutz (corrosion) on the bottom of the reel:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_19_176711911.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17672)
Now that we have things apart we'll remove the Gear Cover (1D) held in place by 2 5-40 Screws (101) as it retains the Gear Stud (134) and we want to see what trouble that corrosion has wrought. The stout gear shaft you see there is Manganese Bronze per Penn and should be nearly indestructible.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_29_176981452.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17699)
Unfortunately we find that there has been some damage done: YUK! :(
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_28_176951897.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17696)
Even after scrubbing it with the tooth brush and corrosion-x there is some pitting and the Bearing (55D) is stuck in it's housing:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_28_17696548.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17697)
And when re-assembled you can see some pitting right where the Gear Cover abuts the frame:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_16_07_17_7_46_57_193331295.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19334)
This corrosion may be compounded by the dissimilar metals that are in contact here, the stainless steel of the Gear Cover and the Aluminum of the frame. So a heads up in the future to give the Cover plenty of grease then putting it back as well as the edge of the Frame and watching this area closely. The bearing still turned smoothly but will be pulled and replaced:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_29_176971987.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17698)
Ok, Putting things back together is not particularly difficult just a little "balancy" as it all the bits rest in slots and things want to fall out when you are putting something back in. The only real pitfall are the Dogs. Remember this photo from above for their orientation:
http://alantani.com/gallery/17/9308_07_07_17_12_14_30_17700483.jpeg
But when you are futzing around with all the parts they can come off of the ratchet and those ears that have to properly grip the ratchet can get bent which leads to failure of your back up anti-reverse. Once you get the Main gear back on I always look underneath to be sure they are seated and if not, tap them on with a thin probe:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_31_177044.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17705)
And again, this is your final assembly image before pressing the RSA and Right Side Plate together:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_32_17707728.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17708)
The Handle Knob is permanently attached. If so, there is nothing to do other than lube the articulating surfaces that are reachable with Corrosion-X.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_20_17674703.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17675)
The Penn Logo pries up easily giving us a shot at getting a little oil in from above:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_20_176751573.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17676)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_20_17676414.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17677)
And we're done! ;D
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A few more shots:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_18_176011064.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17669)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/17/medium_9308_07_07_17_12_14_18_176702397.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=17671)
And as compared to a Boss Fury 500N. It really is a quite narrow reel that looks much wider in the wide angle lenses used for close-ups It's pretty much identical to a Saltiga 35 or Trinidad 16A:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_16_07_17_4_10_57_19329626.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19330)
One of the nice things about doing one of these is you really get to appreciate how far Penn has come from the days of Squidders and Jig Masters. All of the same basic ideas they pioneered are still going strong but have been refined into an incredibly solid package. Pick a torque up and it may feel a touch heavier than a Trinidad 16, but it feels incredibly more solid with all machined frame and side plates from solid pieces of stock, not cast and then machined. It's also less expensive and Made in USA :).
This feels like the last reel you will ever buy in this category for fishing up to 40lb live bait, vertical jigging with PE4-6 or casting surface iron. Everyone should have a reel this size and with these capabilities in their quiver.
I'll play with it at the dock tomorrow and give impressions as to casting and how it feels jigging and post an update.
Best regards
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ps. Casting and some limited jigging results:
Casting surface iron pretty much as expected...it's a rocket! :D. Very fast and I had forgotten how easy it is to cast 40lb mono on a jig stick as I have gone to straight braid. Almost made me lonesome for my old 9' Ulua :). This reel will not limit your casting distance.
Retrieving rate is 6:1 and frankly, it's a little too fast for surface iron and you really have to consciously slow yourself down. Penn sells as an after market option their "Versa gears" that allow you to choose what ratio you prefer. They are $49 each and give the following "Inches per Turn (IPT)":
IPT rates
6-1= 40
5.4-1= 32
4.8-1= 29
The IPT is calculated at a 3/4 full spool.
I remain a fan of 4.8:1 but the 6:1 would be ideal for a Wahoo reel (speed buzz).
Vertical Jigging-wise...the commercial pier in Monterey is about 30 feet deep at the end (so not like a full day working 400gm jigs in 300 ft water with the current ripping :)) but useful when you've tested stuff there before and can compare it to other reels you've fished hard. The 6:1 retrieve moves a 300gm jig like it's not even there...:). However, the proof of the pudding would be with a big 'un on the end and again, the 4.8:1 would be my choice. The 6:1 would be great for traditional yo-yo (speed retrieve) and fine unless you hooked into the larger model Yellowtail like at Alijos in the spring or Guadalupe home guards or larger model (75lb+) tuna, then the 4.8:1 would come into it's own.
SOooo there you have it. What Penn has done is a remarkable achievement imo, for a USA made reel that really is the perfect all around size and belongs in everyone's offshore/nearshore quiver. You can fish Rockfish/Lings, Salmon mooching or trolling, lite offshore trolling (ie Albies), live baiting, surface iron, yo-yo, vertical jigging...Put it on a 9' Ulua, a 7' Calstar or a 5'6" Black Hole...heck pretty much anything I can think of if 350yards of 65lb braid and 20lbs of smooth drag will get it done. And that is a hell of a lot of fishing covered right there.
A beautiful little Tank that can nearly do it all. :D
John: Terrific job. I own International Torque 100 and 300. I really like them alot. If these are an improvement on the Internationals I am impressed. Thanks for the tutorial. Dominick
Quote from: Pescachaser on February 21, 2013, 05:01:18 AM
John: Terrific job. I own International Torque 100 and 300. I really like them alot. If these are an improvement on the Internationals I am impressed. Thanks for the tutorial. Dominick
What Penn has done is take the weight out of the older Torques and improved the feel in the hand yet they still feel incredibly tough. Free spool is incredible with the "live spindle" which completely frees the spool and only limits how much free spool is achievable by how space age the lube you choose is.
best regards
Awesome John.
I was wondering about the ARB Collar
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/haugusnord/18-P1010638_zps7ad4df42.jpg)
Is it rounded on the inside or does it conform to the shaft so that it doesn't spin?
I'm also wondering of the shaft size where the ARB sits. I am interested to know if it's the same size as other Penn reels, like the 4/0. If it does, I'd be interested in getting a few of those ARBs and seeing if I could install them in my 4/0 or ProGear 545 for an added non-slip feel of the handle.
By the way, great work you got there. Oh crap, that reminds me, I got a few tutorial that I have to complete with words and some with photos.
Excellent tutorial, thanks a lot. I see now that the Fathom is pretty much design wise a carbon copy of the Torque. Interesting though is that the fathom ARB seems almost double the length of the Torque. Strange how pricing works, Torque here by us is more expensive than the Trinidad, and PS Trini has a machined frame.
Thank's for a great tutorial John,very much appreciated.
A beautiful reel, but a few things I prefer on the International Torques are their stainless gear sleeves, yoke and drag star wheel and sprung dogs. Just my taste, even if the dogs do bark.
I notice they do not call this Torque an International.
I am curious to know if the holder plate is made from metal or plastic.
QuoteI'm also wondering of the shaft size where the ARB sits. I am interested to know if it's the same size as other Penn reels, like the 4/0. If it does, I'd be interested in getting a few of those ARBs and seeing if I could install them in my 4/0 or ProGear 545 for an added non-slip feel of the handle.
That would be nice. Brendan.
Really outstanding tutorial. Thanks!
Quote from: Bryan Young on February 21, 2013, 05:54:39 AM
Awesome John.
I was wondering about the ARB Collar
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/haugusnord/18-P1010638_zps7ad4df42.jpg)
Is it rounded on the inside or does it conform to the shaft so that it doesn't spin?
I'm also wondering of the shaft size where the ARB sits. I am interested to know if it's the same size as other Penn reels, like the 4/0. If it does, I'd be interested in getting a few of those ARBs and seeing if I could install them in my 4/0 or ProGear 545 for an added non-slip feel of the handle.
By the way, great work you got there. Oh crap, that reminds me, I got a few tutorial that I have to complete with words and some with photos.
I'll crack it open and check for you, standby.
Quote from: CapeFish on February 21, 2013, 07:46:43 AM
Excellent tutorial, thanks a lot. I see now that the Fathom is pretty much design wise a carbon copy of the Torque. Interesting though is that the fathom ARB seems almost double the length of the Torque. Strange how pricing works, Torque here by us is more expensive than the Trinidad, and PS Trini has a machined frame.
Yes, international trade and currencies etc make for uneven pricing. For us, the Torque25N is but $429 and the Trinidad is $479.
Shimano, as I understand the process, does not machine from a one piece billet but from a cast part that has been "Cold Forged" to reach it's desired properties of hardness versus brittleness etc. This does make for excellent frame/body material that is more than proven in some of their very best reels. It creates a lighter part and easily allows the beautiful feel (ergonomics) in the hand of Trinis.
However, I know which one I would prefer to drop on the deck and which one would more likely be merely dented (or leave a dent in the deck :D) and which seems more fragile. And I have seen images of cracked Trinidad and Saltiga side plates. I doubt these on the Torque would ever crack though they might dent your deck ;D.
I have loved the performance of every Trinidad or Saltiga I have ever owned or used but the new Torque's feel in the hand reminds you in a very good way that each piece of the body has been machined from a single piece of stock.
best regards
Quote from: Tile on February 21, 2013, 01:55:00 PM
I am curious to know if the holder plate is made from metal or plastic.
If you can specify exactly what part you mean I can try and answer or ask Penn for you. I'm just not sure which plate you are referring to?
Quote from: basto on February 21, 2013, 12:03:41 PM
A beautiful reel, but 2 things I prefer on the International Torques are their stainless gear sleeves and sprung dogs. Just my taste, even if the dogs do bark.
I think the ideal set up are the silent dogs that use a wire spring around the gear shaft to activate the dogs whenever the shaft goes backwards (seen in high end spinning reels and in the Okuma Makaira). Changes like that require complete redesigns however.
As far as stainless gear sleeves go, all of us that have purchased them for our "Tank" projects admire them and as much of a "fan boy" of the new Torques I am coming across as, I think the industry standard is sill being met here (*edit* Penn confirmed that the Gear Stud/Sleeve is manganese bronze and should be incredibly tough).
What you see in this day of $479 Trinis and $449 Saltigas is a tour de force for $429 and Made in USA. I'd say my glass is well over half full.
:) best
As always, excellent tutorial John, thanks for sharing it with us.
That is one nice looking reel and no lever for the drags....my kind of reel ;). What do you think would be the best solution to stop that corrosion by the gear cover plate, just pack with grease or maybe a rubber seal?
I also noticed that you placed a nice amount of grease on the dogs, shouldn't those be dry, as the fins wok by friction on the ratchet? :-\
I know if I do that to my spinners, I wouldn't get away with it.
Thanks again John, nice work!
Sal
Quote from: Alto Mare on February 21, 2013, 05:16:40 PM
As always, excellent tutorial John, thanks for sharing it with us.
That is one nice looking reel and no lever for the drags....my kind of reel ;). What do you think would be the best solution to stop that corrosion by the gear cover plate, just pack with grease or maybe a rubber seal?
I also noticed that you placed a nice amount of grease on the dogs, shouldn't those be dry, as the fins wok by friction on the ratchet? :-\
I know if I do that to my spinners, I wouldn't get away with it.
Thanks again John, nice work!
Sal
I found myself in a bit of a catch-22 with those as they require perfectly free movement on their studs (probably Corrosion-x would be better), protection of the "arm" from the "ear springs" as they are dissimilar metals (saw a tiny bit of corrosion there, too small to photograph) and the "grip" of the ratchet gear (best dry). What I tried to accomplish was grease on the outside with the inner part of the ear left dry to grip.
I don't have as much experience as some with this type of dog so any input is welcome and I see if the grease got "old" it might gum them up.
As far as the "trouble spot" goes I think grease should be up to the task as long as that area is not neglected like it was. Unfortunately it simply is a natural spot both for salt to collect as well as a place where dissimilar metals come in contact so regular attention needs to be paid there.
Here's an image of how I put it back together to try and get grease to fill and seal the pits:
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/haugusnord/1-P1010692_zpsbb292552.jpg)
thanks Sal, best regards
Quote from: johndtuttle on February 21, 2013, 04:57:38 PM
Quote from: Tile on February 21, 2013, 01:55:00 PM
I am curious to know if the holder plate is made from metal or plastic.
If you can specify exactly what part you mean I can try and answer or ask Penn for you. I'm just not sure which plate you are referring to?
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/haugusnord/18-P1010638_zps7ad4df42.jpg)
Tile is asking if the 'graphite' looking base plate, in above pic, the eccentric jack plate directly nestels against, weather that is metal or plastic? (like the trinidad range) ;)
Thanks for the tutorial. Great work!
Quote from: Fish-aholic on February 21, 2013, 05:50:31 PM
Quote from: johndtuttle on February 21, 2013, 04:57:38 PM
Quote from: Tile on February 21, 2013, 01:55:00 PM
I am curious to know if the holder plate is made from metal or plastic.
If you can specify exactly what part you mean I can try and answer or ask Penn for you. I'm just not sure which plate you are referring to?
Tile is asking if the 'graphite' looking base plate, in above pic, the eccentric jack plate directly nestels against, weather that is metal or plastic? (like the trinidad range) ;)
Thanks for the tutorial. Great work!
I just had the reel apart to get the dimensions that Bryan is asking for and gave the inner plate (black one) a little scratch. It came back silver which would suggest anodized aluminum. I tried to take a photo but it just wouldn't come out so great.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_22_07_17_2_24_02_196512308.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19652)
Regardless I will ask Penn to comment so as to not mislead.
best regards
Bryan, I checked the AR Bearing and it's sleeve for you.
It is keyed to the shaft internally though it appears round in the images.
The gear sleeve itself is 10mm. The OD of the ARB Sleeve is 12mm. This would correspond to the ID on the ARB. It is hexagonal but has exterior dimensions that are ~18mm to 20mm (kinda tough to be precise due to it's shape).
best
The silver coloration returned by the scratch told me everything - cast and then machined aluminum, which is nice :) .
Thanks John!
I was thinking about that trouble spot, I know this might sound silly to most, but wouldn't it be better having that cover plate made out of plastic?
Sal
Quote from: Alto Mare on February 21, 2013, 08:02:40 PM
Thanks John!
I was thinking about that trouble spot, I know this might sound silly to most, but wouldn't it be better having that cover plate made out of plastic?
Sal
It functions as the retainer for the Gear Shaft/Sleeve (essentially as the Bridge in our beloved Senators, though via a different mechanism). Has to be tough. :D.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/19/medium_9308_22_07_17_2_23_41_196502195.jpeg) (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=19651)
Other companies put stainless plates there too and mount all kinds of stuff on them (dogs etc).
best, John
Thanks John.
Obviously you've hit a sweet spot with this reel tutorial. That is what it's all about. Sharing.
Yes John I see what you mean, I was under the impression that there was another cover plate. That's it, no more wine for me today, ::) too bad I'm going out with a bunch of guys tonight.
Thanks again John.
Sal
Quote from: johndtuttle on February 21, 2013, 05:08:13 PM
Quote from: basto on February 21, 2013, 12:03:41 PM
A beautiful reel, but 2 things I prefer on the International Torques are their stainless gear sleeves and sprung dogs. Just my taste, even if the dogs do bark.
I think the ideal set up are the silent dogs that use a wire spring around the gear shaft to activate the dogs whenever the shaft goes backwards (seen in high end spinning reels and in the Okuma Makaira).
:) best
Yes John I agree the silent friction wheel type AR used on Okumas is the ideal. Avet use that now and Banax used it 30 years ago on their SX spin reel.
Quote from: Alto Mare on February 21, 2013, 08:43:59 PM
Yes John I see what you mean, I was under the impression that there was another cover plate. That's it, no more wine for me today, ::) too bad I'm going out with a bunch of guys tonight.
Thanks again John.
Sal
Get some dat fire water no zin zang zong stuff ;)
John, do you feel any movement with the gear sleeve if you move the handle back -and- forth.... not in and out, sideways.
Quote from: Alto Mare on February 22, 2013, 04:39:39 AM
John, do you feel any movement with the gear sleeve if you move the handle back -and- forth.... not in and out, sideways.
A little bit. It's definitely not as tight as the handle on my Senator that has a brand new, never fished stainless gear sleeve courtesy of Alan Tani. :)
I'll have to check in the am to see if it's the handle that has worn or the gear sleeve. Can't get to it tonight.
best
Thanks John, I'm studying your wonderful tutorial some more ;). I have to admit, I'm not crazy about that design of the sleeve and plate:-\
Quote from: Alto Mare on February 22, 2013, 04:56:44 AM
Thanks John, I'm studying your wonderful tutorial some more ;). I have to admit, I'm not crazy about that design of the sleeve and plate:-\
Oh, I get what you are driving at now. ;)
1. I checked the handle and I had put it on a tad loose as the star was backed off too much. Cranked it down tight and it is every bit as tight as any handle on a brand new stainless gear sleeve. This gear sleeve is confirmed by Penn to be Manganese Bronze.
2. There is ZERO play in the assembly, up or down, or side to side.
Let me explain how it works: I kinda mistakenly referred to the gear cover as being the same as a "bridge" because it really is simply a retaining bracket. A true bridge as we know them in other reels is the mounting plate for the post that the gear sleeve is attached to. Here the Right Side inner plate and the Right Side Assembly house bearings that suspend the Gear Stud (sleeve) between them. The gear cover only prevents movement in and out, the bearings prevent any and all side to side play. There is very little stress on the gear cover in this sense, the bearings bear all the load when cranking.
BTW, Penn confirmed this AM that the Gear Shaft is Manganese Bronze (far harder than brass) and that material is chosen as the gear cover is stainless. Stainless in Stainless is not ideal as the Gear Shaft rotates in contact with it, the slightly softer material will run smoother in the gear cover.
Their opinion on the dogs is that light grease is fine on them but I would tell people to be cautious to not gum them up too much.
best regards
Quote from: Tile on February 21, 2013, 07:34:13 PM
The silver coloration returned by the scratch told me everything - cast and then machined aluminum, which is nice :) .
Penn confirmed this AM that the black inner side plate is anodized aluminum.
Very good explanation, now I get it ;). Sorry, it takes me a while ::).
Thank you John.
Sal
Great tutorial, awesome pic also....
Saw it on B D and was impressed.
Good job, lots of time & effort put into it.
Thanks....
Great job !! Thanks for posting.
John
Thanks John for the great tutorial. I just took mine apart and removed the bearing shields. It was a bear, had to use a #22 hook and forceps (Circlip shield retainer), along with a lot of magnification to get it done.
I am a long time PG 545 fan for fishing 40-60# for long range bait fishing, but this reel has the Pro gears beat. The Torque is the first reel to do that in my opinion. Lighter, better free spool and line capacity, slightly better drags over a tricked out 545. I got 500 yards of 50# Izor Solid spectra with lots of room for a 30' topshot. Over 90 seconds of free spool with line on it.
Mine has the 4.8:1 gear, but the reel has more torque than the PG545 at 4.0:1 due to a much longer handle in the power position. The PG power handle measures 2 7/8", the torque is 3.75". About a 30% difference.
Additional observations-an extremely light weight spool, and an oversized spool shaft.
I guess I have a bunch of tricked out black Progear 545s for sale!
Quote from: bigreddog on May 15, 2013, 07:10:53 PM
Thanks John for the great tutorial. I just took mine apart and removed the bearing shields. It was a bear, had to use a #22 hook and forceps (Circlip shield retainer), along with a lot of magnification to get it done.
I am a long time PG 545 fan for fishing 40-60# for long range bait fishing, but this reel has the Pro gears beat. The Torque is the first reel to do that in my opinion. Lighter, better free spool and line capacity, slightly better drags over a tricked out 545. I got 500 yards of 50# Izor Solid spectra with lots of room for a 30' topshot. Over 90 seconds of free spool with line on it.
Mine has the 4.8:1 gear, but the reel has more torque than the PG545 at 4.0:1 due to a much longer handle in the power position. The PG power handle measures 2 7/8", the torque is 3.75". About a 30% difference.
Additional observations-an extremely light weight spool, and an oversized spool shaft.
I guess I have a bunch of tricked out black Progear 545s for sale!
Hey thar,
Just getting around to some of my old threads and posts so thanks for that update with your on the water experience.
There are many reels that compete for "state of the art star drag reel in it's class that can do it all" and the Torque is the equal at least of anything else made (vs Shimano/Daiwa/Okuma). This classic 3/0 size is truly the do it all other than maybe trolling at length for larger models. That's where the tanks that rest on mechanical dogs come into their own and ARB's get beat up fast.
I might still pick a Baja Special for my one "stranded on a deserted island" conventional doomsday reel (for it's simple ruggedness and all around ability ;)). However, other than trolling, there is nothing the Torque 25N doesn't do even better (lighter, lower profile, better feel in the hand, instant anti-reverse, better casting, faster retrieve and a lighter spool to help your live bait swim). This comes at a cost of greater complexity and price but is worth every cent and make the reel a joy to fish.
best
Hello John,
I am working on four of these reels....what a beauty!
On one of the reels, the spool adjustment knob in the center of the right sideplate seems to spin endlessly. Upon closer observation, when I removed the outer gold cap, the internal silver threaded unit seems to be free spinning on the sideplate. :-\
Therefore, I took off the sideplate and looked at the inside part of that spool adjustment unit. Indeed, it was freely rotating on the sideplate.
Question: How is that threaded adjustment unit fastened to the sideplate? Can it be removed? I'm thinking about applying a very thin coat of super glue on the inside to help hold the unit in place. I'm thinking that after all, when you put the gold adjustment knob on the outside, it is not load bearing and it does not take a lot of abuse. I would have prefered another method of securing that unit from rotating, but I am trying not to simply "buy" another sideplate just because of this situation.
Thoughts?.... :)
Standby, I wouldn't want to guess as to how they press it in or what the best way to proceed would be (I worry about epoxy promoting corrosion possibly) and am asking Penn to comment and give us guidance.
Per Penn:
"The part is staked in, sounds like it wasn't hit properly at our factory. A quick fix would be "peening" the aluminum on the inside of the right side plate 4-5 times around the part, which will force the part to mate correctly and the part to no longer spin. I have done this quick fix out in the field once as we were at a tournament and the guy was fishing it the same day, it worked and everything is still functioning properly after a year. Seems like a couple of them may have gotten out as this is the 2nd time I have heard of it since launch date a few years ago. The glue may work but not 100% sure. Obviously he can send it in and it will be covered 100% under warranty."
I always do my best if I feel I have complete knowledge of how to proceed (or at least one way to do it that won't hurt anything :)). However, I often post in the Penn Forum on stripersonline.com as the service manager and techs post there frequently and really have the best knowledge as to how to care for your reel if anything remotely warranty comes up.
:)
ps of course, if you post here we all will do our best to help as we are able.
This exact thing happened to me. I brought it to Alan's house and he repeened it for me. If you look closely, you'll see 4 small dents. Just peen but don't hit too hard. The material is very soft.
Okay, thanks for the responses. I did notice those small tab looking marks that surround the unit. I will try and brace the unit and lightly tap it with a small punch tool.
Thank you.
i just bought a black torque 12. i am trying to service it, but I can't figure out how to take off the right side plate. I have taken apart a few reels before and I have never had this problem. I took off the handle and the 2 torx screws (it seems that there are only 2 screws on the 12 size, unlike 3 screws on the 25n size). However, when i do that, the side plate stays on, as if there was another screw holding it in. i only see the two screws, is there something I am missing?
Quote from: bigbassfisherman on October 18, 2015, 08:08:05 PM
i just bought a black torque 12. i am trying to service it, but I can't figure out how to take off the right side plate. I have taken apart a few reels before and I have never had this problem. I took off the handle and the 2 torx screws (it seems that there are only 2 screws on the 12 size, unlike 3 screws on the 25n size). However, when i do that, the side plate stays on, as if there was another screw holding it in. i only see the two screws, is there something I am missing?
I think you are doing it right but the tolerances of the RS plate are so high and there probably is reel grease sticking it together to make it tough. If you take off the LS plate first you can push on the spool spindle (not too hard) to pop it off (make sure the cap is on well). Sometimes the LS plate is tight too, you can conversely remove the spool tension cap (26B) and push on the spindle to pop off the LS. It nicely applies pressure in the middle of the LS plate.
Thank you so much! I just tried this and it worked. Saved me hours of frustration... I never would have thought of it myself!
Quote from: bigbassfisherman on October 18, 2015, 09:22:54 PM
Thank you so much! I just tried this and it worked. Saved me hours of frustration... I never would have thought of it myself!
The Torque lever drags are very tight like this mating together so well they get snug. Fortunately you have to remove the lever drag cap to remove the spool anyways (as it is threaded to it's end) and I learned the trick that way. ;)
What is everyone opinion on the anti reverse system this reel uses ? I was looking into purchasing this reel for live bait for snook fishing near structure and locking down the drag using 100 pound braid. Do you guys feel the anti reverse system is strong enough not to slip ?
Quote from: mirrorlure7m on January 07, 2016, 01:55:43 AM
What is everyone opinion on the anti reverse system this reel uses ? I was looking into purchasing this reel for live bait for snook fishing near structure and locking down the drag using 100 pound braid. Do you guys feel the anti reverse system is strong enough not to slip ?
The anti-reverse on the reel is very strong but all of them can be finicky if they haven't been serviced or used in a long time. When dirt builds up, grease gets old and sticky or corrosion is present on the studs they can fail. The good thing is with 2 dogs you usually have one working and the other slipping when it gets this way to give you a heads up that it is time to service the reel.
To improve the reliability you could easily mod them with some spring wire custom bent, but then you would have to listen to them click. Some love the sound, others love silence. ;)
I agree with John, this reel is completely capable for the task you have up for it.
The overall design will always engage, given up-keep is performed, and will not slip once engaged on the AR ratchet, and the use of dual dogs equal ls out the strain put on the shafts and frame when the AR engages.
The pawl design in question is limited by the function of the metal tabs to grab onto the AR ratchet once there is reverse movement, but overall very reliable, sound design, especially with dual dogs.
-Scott
Has anyone tested the drag on this reel ? I would love to know the true max drag number.
Quote from: mirrorlure7m on January 07, 2016, 12:53:31 PM
Has anyone tested the drag on this reel ? I would love to know the true max drag number.
I gave up ever caring what a "max drag" number is because almost no one has a use for it or knows what it means. Particularly when it is used as marketing hype with no connection to reality.
The most useful number for an offshore reel is what is the max smooth drag number (ie what is the number a running fish can pull without damaging the reel or breaking the line). This is very hard to test and you need just the right fish and circumstances. The angler has to have a large measure of skill too and be ready for it.
The number for a reel being fished next to structure might be the "lock down drag" number...which for this reel will pull the rod right out of your hands and donate it to the ship wreck if a big fish hits.
Then there is the "at what drag setting does the handle bind" number...that is addressed in the main post.
I have posted before on this at length. There is no free lunch. Look at the reel as one of the best 22oz 2-speed fishing reels, better than most. It is not as capable as a 34oz fishing reel (Penn 12VSX). But because it is lighter framed it is more fun to use for most things, casts better and is more comfortable at the rail. It will land anything you have business hooking with it. Some fish you have no business using this reel. ;)
I hope this helps :D I am not trying to be harsh, just encourage you to not dwell on superficial information/hype. Focus on getting on the water and finding out how to use scale verified drag numbers (most are surprised at how much pressure modest drags settings really produce when it is felt at the end of a rod). This is a fabulous tool to have in your quiver. It can handle anything most of us can or want to handle.
John,
check your private message please.
I bought a used TRQ 25. It looks like new but I feel a hard shift into freespool like it's snagging on something before going to freespool. I know to cock the spool back before going into freespool because of the live spindle feature. My new TRQ 30 goes in and out of gear smoothly. My question is, if the previous owner forced the reel into freespool without cocking the spool do I need to replace the jack and/or eccentric in order to get a smoother shifting reel because these parts have been damaged?
Quote from: Craigen on April 18, 2016, 06:34:01 AM
I bought a used TRQ 25. It looks like new but I feel a hard shift into freespool like it's snagging on something before going to freespool. I know to cock the spool back before going into freespool because of the live spindle feature. My new TRQ 30 goes in and out of gear smoothly. My question is, if the previous owner forced the reel into freespool without cocking the spool do I need to replace the jack and/or eccentric in order to get a smoother shifting reel because these parts have been damaged?
Thanks for the PM on BD. I'll answer here so that others may benefit...
I have heard of others bending parts in the Fathom when "forcing" the reel into or out of gear when the spool is under load as well as a small redesign of the early Fathom Eccentric Plate to make it slide a little easier...
Which if any of these are in play it is impossible to say without inspecting the reel.
It should be butter smooth going into or out of gear like you likely experience with your other reel. I would take up the issue with the seller first (if you can) then I would get the reel to Penn who will likely replace any needed parts under warranty if the reel is in "as new" condition.
I simply would hate for you to be frustrated trouble shooting this if it is some subtle issue.
best
Thanks for steering me in the right direction. There are some reel gurus here in San Diego but maybe it's best to send it to Penn for a proper diagnosis and parts if needed. Do you think Penn will service the reel under warranty even though I bought it second hand? Cheers...
Quote from: Craigen on April 18, 2016, 05:40:22 PM
Thanks for steering me in the right direction. There are some reel gurus here in San Diego but maybe it's best to send it to Penn for a proper diagnosis and parts if needed. Do you think Penn will service the reel under warranty even though I bought it second hand? Cheers...
Hard to say and I don't want to speak for them....but they tend to really stand behind the Torques and not really questions such things...if any defect is present. That said I would expect any repairs to be very modest.
best
Thanks again John.
Quote from: johndtuttle on January 07, 2016, 05:49:10 PM
Quote from: mirrorlure7m on January 07, 2016, 12:53:31 PM
Has anyone tested the drag on this reel ? I would love to know the true max drag number.
I gave up ever caring what a "max drag" number is because almost no one has a use for it or knows what it means. Particularly when it is used as marketing hype with no connection to reality.
I would jump outta the boat holding my rod if always use the MAX drag that many current reels advertise.
few weeks ago when I was on the water, a big fat sea lion took my fish and started running like mad train, I tightened the drag wanted to broke the line or tear the mouth of the fish and get my trolling lure back as happened on previous times, well this time the lure was really attached to the fish, the lines was 80# and the sea lion was angry, I tighten up the drag on my Baja Special and almost lost the rod and reel from my hands, I needed the help from one of my friends to hold the rod while fighting the sea lion from my fish, but no avail on tearing the head off the fish from mouth of the sea lion.. I ended up untightening the drag a bit, let the dog take my line and fish, chew the fish in pieces by itself and later with a strong pull get my lure back.
we have many strong reels nowadays but I pretty sure Im would never be able to crank the handle on those max drag settings.
its good to have all the reels with greased carbontex drags, they're smooth and strong.
Narrow.
They also make a "25" that is wider and not as tall. They both hold the same.
Looking at my trq30......looks to me like it has a painted black aluminium reel foot. Strange. Every other reel I have (about 20 conventionals, most major makes) right down to my abu 1500c have chromed brass/stainless reel feet. If it is indeed aluminium, I think penn have taken the weight shedding a bit too far....
Anybody know for sure?
Reviving a very old thread about one of my all-time favorite reels. I own several of them.
Does anyone know if there are thinner drag washers available (smoothdrag does not carry them). Any other ideas how to get a few more pounds of drag out of them?
To answer an old question above with the 4.8:1 gears installed in the TRQ25/30 size I get 20# of max drag or just a bit more, straight off of the reel.
Thanks!
You're lucky to get that 20lbs. No upgrades available.
Keith
To answer my own question..........I added an additional metal washer on top of the drag stack, and to my surprise that substantially increased drag output. The 25N with the 4.8:1 gearset, spool filled to the top, went from around 20# to over 25# of drag without banging on the star with a hammer.
The 15 gets even more drag.
I guess there is a lot more deflection of the top metal drag washer than I thought. The additional washer is a tight fit, and it increased the minimum drag setting (not a problem for what I do).
I hope someone finds this helpful. If I ever blow out my anti-reverse, I will report back here!