The weight is always described as something that in rotor has no benefit, and is something to be lessened. While I am convinced that weight and the more heavy rotor it is, especially the arms on it, reel performs better due to flywheel effect - inertia.
It wont make the reel stronger when you need to pull out big fish, or sinker, and it will be of no use when often pull - stop motion is used.
But for example pulling a crank bait has to be better in a sense of reels pulling power with heavier rotor once it has started to turn. Initial motion will be harder but the rest of the winding is easier.
I don't think the physics/maths works out here. Once an object is in motion then inertia makes it want to continue but only until it has expended the stored energy... if the input stops... all a heavier rotor would do is make the reel want to keep spinning once you removed the input. It would make the reel less responsive both in stopping or starting?
This is like saying putting heavier wheels on your car will save you gas because inertia.
subjective bias is unavoidable. so often, i think people associate quality or value with weight. something that is heavier must be worth more. i'd love to see a reel manufacturer market a reel that claimed to be better quality because it weighed more. :-\
or, you could be on to something!!!! ;D
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=34410.0
I think Boon is on to something. Isn't the purpose for a flywheel on a combustion motor to even out the delivery of rotational energy? Without a flywheel, the driveshaft would be constantly accelerating and decelerating during and after the firing of each cylinder. That makes for a lot of vibration and wear.
The spinning reel has a bit of a similar but slightly different problem with the oscillation of the shaft plus ergonomics causing the handle/main shaft rotation speed to vary. With a big flywheel (heavy rotor) it should be a bit easier to maintain a smooth retrieve, especially at higher speeds. But a heavier flywheel (rotor) is also less efficient for transferring energy, and you have to fight it when you want to stop or slow your retrieve. There should be an ideal tradeoff at some point
Realistically, a rotor has to be relatively large and rigid, so I would suspect that most have more than enough weight to fulfill the flywheel role. It seems that most reel makers are looking for ways to make the rotor lighter without sacrificing rigidity.
But I am not a spinning reel guy, so take this with a grain of salt...
-J
Quote from: alantani on January 25, 2022, 05:16:49 AM
subjective bias is unavoidable. so often, i think people associate quality or value with weight. something that is heavier must be worth more. i'd love to see a reel manufacturer market a reel that claimed to be better quality because it weighed more. :-\
Because they usualy are. And in the top range of spinners that weight is present in adequate amount, not necessarily because of the constructors understanding of complete picture, but because the need for solid materials- weight for those.
The issue becomes obvious in those mid range and low cost reels, where one can blatantly notice ridiculous lack of weight in rotor and overall reel construction.. which, I am sure, results in worse performance, for that reason alone.
Here's a fun one. How does it affect the above when the rotor is or isn't balanced? Loosely related, suppose a fella wanted to try to balance the rotor on an older reel. How would you begin such a quest?
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on January 25, 2022, 01:42:21 PM
Here's a fun one. How does it affect the above when the rotor is or isn't balanced? Loosely related, suppose a fella wanted to try to balance the rotor on an older reel. How would you begin such a quest?
Wobble. More or less, but yes. Like any other dis-balanced rotating thing.
Flywheel isn't the best description. I meant rotational inertia being more significant with solid, weighty rotor, that as a result helps ( once started, and the starting will be slightly heavier, but the rest is easier ), reeling in light objects, lures..
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on January 25, 2022, 01:42:21 PM
Here's a fun one. How does it affect the above when the rotor is or isn't balanced?
progressively more noticeable AND MORE ANNOYING wobble, as you reel faster
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=21492.msg233297#msg233297
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on January 25, 2022, 01:42:21 PM
Loosely related, suppose a fella wanted to try to balance the rotor on an older reel. How would you begin such a quest?
duh, you look on AT:
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=21460.0
A good hint on the subject would be the fact that new Stella FK, for which I didn`t know before I started these type of conclusions, has magnesium rotors in sizes 2500 and smaller, and aluminum in bigger ones.
Aluminum being heavier.
And in ultra light fishing that inertia is of no use.
Btw line lay in that Stella, with super slow oscillation is not good for short distance jerky type of motion, Puling the jig out of rocks and similar, fishing.
Gonna cause line - braid cutting in. IMHO.
Quote from: glos on January 27, 2022, 05:54:52 AM
A good hint on the subject would be the fact that new Stella FK, for which I didn`t know before I started these type of conclusions, has magnesium rotors in sizes 2500 and smaller, and aluminum in bigger ones.
Aluminum being heavier.
nothing to do w/ weight... magnesium can't handle salt,
so it's only used for small reel sizes most likely to be used F/W-only
Quote from: philaroman on January 27, 2022, 03:57:02 PM
Quote from: glos on January 27, 2022, 05:54:52 AM
A good hint on the subject would be the fact that new Stella FK, for which I didn`t know before I started these type of conclusions, has magnesium rotors in sizes 2500 and smaller, and aluminum in bigger ones.
Aluminum being heavier.
nothing to do w/ weight... magnesium can't handle salt,
so it's only used for small reel sizes most likely to be used F/W-only
I don`t think so. Dedicated fw reel wouldn`t be done in such manner only partially.
Aluminum gives it much needed inertia in those bigger sizes.
And one more conclusion of mine about this new Stella. It has no PG, because that tight parallel line lay couldn`t handle it without even more cutting in of braid.
I predict it to be a failure, with or without PG. Because of SSO.
Do smaller sizes not need that inertia? Methinks they did it to reduce weight without losing the strength in the gear box.
Heavy reels might godda do with the quality of the metal. Cheaper metal might require thicker parts to maintain rigidity. Wonder how much a mostly titanium reel would cost.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on January 27, 2022, 07:19:17 PM
Do smaller sizes not need that inertia? Methinks they did it to reduce weight without losing the strength in the gear box.
They do, but we on the other hand, don`t. Results and differences are minuscule.
Gear box will have to work a bit harder, driven by us, when rotor is lighter.
I`ve finally found a proof.
:
X RIGID ROTOR
SHIMANO's X Rigid Rotor is an extra strong and durable rotor. The shape and thickness of the aluminium rotor creates high rigidity that results in more fish fighting power. Increased mass of the aluminium rotor generates more inertia resulting in easier fishing of heavy jigs and high resistance lures.
Quote from: Glos on February 10, 2023, 06:19:09 PMI`ve finally found a proof.
:
X RIGID ROTOR
SHIMANO's X Rigid Rotor is an extra strong and durable rotor. The shape and thickness of the aluminium rotor creates high rigidity that results in more fish fighting power. Increased mass of the aluminium rotor generates more inertia resulting in easier fishing of heavy jigs and high resistance lures.
Leave it to shimano to find a way to spin
being heavier into a good thing, AND as usual they gave it a marketing name.
It`s not heavier. It`s easier, due to inertia.
The weight alone is beneficial.
Quote from: Glos on February 10, 2023, 06:19:09 PMI`ve finally found a proof.
:
X RIGID ROTOR
SHIMANO's X Rigid Rotor is an extra strong and durable rotor. The shape and thickness of the aluminium rotor creates high rigidity that results in more fish fighting power. Increased mass of the aluminium rotor generates more inertia resulting in easier fishing of heavy jigs and high resistance lures.
Very much the flywheel effect.
Daiwa wants to convince us that the low inertia rotor is better:
AIRDRIVE ROTOR
Low inertia is the key.
The newly developed AIRDRIVE ROTOR is made from ZAION. Maintaining the strength of the rotor from 18 EXIST, DAIWA has been able to reduce the weight significantly. Designed with focus to create a perfectly round structure, trouble free and flawless rotation have been achieved.Source: https://www.daiwa.com/scandinavia/technology/index.html (https://www.daiwa.com/scandinavia/technology/index.html)
I don't think that anything a fishing reel company puts in marketing text is proof of anything.
The lighter the rotor, the less energy it will take to mostly start, but also keep moving (advantage: Daiwa). I.e., lower inertia. This will help for start and stop winding mostly, with some minimal benefit winding under heavy load.
The heavier the rotor, the more energy to start and and keep moving, but the greater tendency to maintain rotational velocity (momentum, NOT inertia). This could make turning the handle less jerky in a specific range of velocity and resistance (advantage: Shimano). This would help when retrieving lures that change resistance during a speed wind, and is in line with what Shimano is attempting to claim.
Inertia is the resistance to change in speed and is a function of mass. Momentum is the tendency to maintain speed and is a function of mass and velocity. The momentum benefit of a heavier rotor will vary depending on a combination of resistance and velocity. Low inertia is desirable, but so is high momentum. Problem is that it is hard to get high momentum without high inertia. Shimano should be touting the momentum and not the inertia...
The exact ideal rotor mass will be a balancing act, taking in the winding resistance in the reel mechanisms, resistance from pulling payload, winding speed, and how much inertia to start winding from a dead stop is worth putting up with.
Plus the reel designer has to take into account overall weight, rigidity, and other factors. Each choice is a tradeoff. But the marketing babblespeak will try to convince us that every tradeoff has no downside and is actually some sort of brilliant technical advantage :)
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on February 10, 2023, 07:16:31 PMI don't think that anything a fishing reel company puts in marketing text is proof of anything
Quote from: Glos on February 10, 2023, 06:19:09 PMI`ve finally found a proof.
Each choice is a tradeoff. But the marketing babblespeak will try to convince us that every tradeoff has no downside and is actually some sort of brilliant technical advantage :)
-J
:d
In today's environment they call it mis, or dis, information. In yesteryear it was called advertising propaganda. ;D
What matters most to me is balance. When I'm playing or working a fish none of that other stuff really matters.
Thx Jurelometer. Good one.
Its not my language so I tend to simplify and misunderstand, write.
There is a good example in a new freshwater or inshore Stela, where is that sweet spot.
They make the rotor from magnesium up to size 2500, and above that from ( heavier ) aluminium...
I knew right away why is that so.
No worries Glos. It appears to me that your proficiency in English is better than the marketing folk at Shimano :)
We are all learning here, and this discussion has helped me as well.
-J
They may have missed the proper term in physics, but they sure nailed it by logic.
And physics - laws.
Btw I`ve sent that quote to Alan Hawk also.
He wasn`t convinced in my claims .. also.
Quote from: Glos on February 10, 2023, 08:07:07 PMThere is a good example in a new freshwater or inshore Stela, where is that sweet spot.
They make the rotor from magnesium up to size 2500, and above that from ( heavier ) aluminium...
I knew right away why is that so.
and you were wrong... nothing to do with weight/inertia
MG stops at 2500-size because it can't handle S/W... otherwise,
as rotor/frame material, it's stronger, lighter, better than AL in every way
no matter how much they try to minimize "fear of salt" w/ alloys & coatings,
MG is still most appropriate for smaller lighter reels, that are mostly F/W
IMHO, if all other factors are same: rigidity/strength/durability,
then comparatively lighter rotor is better regardless of reel-size
Quote from: philaroman on February 10, 2023, 10:20:59 PMIMHO, if all other factors are same: rigidity/strength/durability,
then comparatively lighter rotor is better regardless of reel-size
Not a spinner guy- so I am not 100% confident, but I am inclined to mostly agree with you. The benefit of less inertia going to win out in most use cases. Especially in larger reels. The smaller the reel/rotor, the harder it will probably be to notice as much difference either way.
This matches Tommy's observation that balance is mostly what matters. Tommy has played with a lot more models of spinners than I have (probably several hundred more, and more small than large).
I took a quick look at the Shimano site, and it looked to me like the magnesium Exsense spinner has magnesium body
and rotor.
Of course Shimano does a complete reversal now and touts the benefit of less inertia with a light rotor:
The magnumlite MGL rotor is 25% lighter, contributes to better balance, and requires less start up inertia allowing anglers to control the start-and-stop retrieval of jigs and lures more efficiently.Source:https://fish.shimano.com/content/fish/northamerica/us/en/homepage/Shimano_Product_Page.P-EXSENCE.html (https://fish.shimano.com/content/fish/northamerica/us/en/homepage/Shimano_Product_Page.P-EXSENCE.html)
::)
And then more grammatically incorrect marketing babblespeak about "Infinity Evolution" which I think means "Good luck getting parts for that $USD 1000 reel five years from now."
-J
Quote from: philaroman on February 10, 2023, 10:20:59 PMQuote from: Glos on February 10, 2023, 08:07:07 PMThere is a good example in a new freshwater or inshore Stela, where is that sweet spot.
They make the rotor from magnesium up to size 2500, and above that from ( heavier ) aluminium...
I knew right away why is that so.
and you were wrong... nothing to do with weight/inertia
MG stops at 2500-size because it can't handle S/W... otherwise,
as rotor/frame material, it's stronger, lighter, better than AL in every way
no matter how much they try to minimize "fear of salt" w/ alloys & coatings,
MG is still most appropriate for smaller lighter reels, that are mostly F/W
IMHO, if all other factors are same: rigidity/strength/durability,
then comparatively lighter rotor is better regardless of reel-size
Yes a lighter "carbon infused" Shimano ci4 rotor is what most like better than a heavy rotor making a heavy reel.
Magnesium is a no no
Quote from: Glos on February 10, 2023, 09:17:04 PMThey may have missed the proper term in physics, but they sure nailed it by logic.
And physics - laws.
Btw I`ve sent that quote to Alan Hawk also.
He wasn`t convinced in my claims .. also.
And you still believe yourself?
The mass of the rotor has nothing to do with anything. Tommy nailed it.
Handy Andy it does pretty much as the weight, not casting weight artificially incorporated by making the rod tip stiffer, but physical weight, of the rod tip, makes it better at hooking up and penetrating.
Together with some bendability of the same.
Both would be counter intuitive for the novice, but not for the physicist.