well the anti-reverse problem of the soft steel of the dogs is well know on this community, havent been adressed yet by Penn.
but know I wanted to ask to the guys that run reel repair shops if you ever have a Baja Special that you can turn the handle in reverse even with new dogs and new dog springs.
this is not my first time working on a Baja Special, I think I have serviced and repair at least 10 Baja Special reels locally, including mine, so I know how they work and how to install everything.
but this is the 1st time with a reel that the anti-reverse dogs dont engage even new, its important to say that I repaired this reel 10 months ago and it worked flawlessly for all that time, its used as loaner on a charter boat, this reel was used at least 3 times per week on all those 10 months and worked like it should, but recently the owner brought it to me cuz it lost the anti-reverse, I opened the reel and found the dogs all destroyed, this wasnt a surprise at all cuz this is a known problem and also knowing how hard he fish with the reel.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/1%20Reel%20repair/P1070435%20ss_zpsi5dftcis.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/1%20Reel%20repair/P1070435%20ss_zpsi5dftcis.jpg.html)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/1%20Reel%20repair/P1070441%20ss_zps3biwvfyu.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/1%20Reel%20repair/P1070441%20ss_zps3biwvfyu.jpg.html)
well, the normal solution was to order new dogs, since the springs are really cheap I ordered a new set of springs, installed everything and now the reel has anti-reverse, but if you try to turn the handle in reverse many times on one or two it goes on reverse half turn, then engage, if you continue testing it you ge the same results and sometimes it makes a full turn in reverse until engage again.
if I take my Baja Special and treat it the same I could never make the handle to go on reverse more than 3-5mm (ratchet teeth size)
I already did the following:
-- unistalled and installed back everything related to gears, dogs, springs 3-4 times
-- cleaned all excess of grease.
-- untighten the bridge screws a bit to avoid having it too tight (keep doing the same)
-- ratchet teeth looks good (havent compared it agains another, check the picture )
so, have you ever had this problem on a Baja Special reel?
what other parts should I check?
thanks in advance
Steelfish. I don't know if this will work but if the metal is too soft you might be able to temper the metal somewhat. I would try to heat the dogs then plunge them into cold water or let them air cool. I am not sure which of these cooling processes will temper the dog to make them harder. There are plenty metallurgists on this site that will clear up this post. Dominick
I see a need for some custom Keta dogs
Quote from: RUSTY OLD COLT on May 03, 2016, 05:25:31 PM
I see a need for some custom Keta dogs
yep, a set of Keta dogs would be a nice upgrade for this reel.
check how the dogs that came from another Baja Special reel ended up, all chewed up as well
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/1%20Reel%20repair/IMAG4841%20ss_zpspwaajltq.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/1%20Reel%20repair/IMAG4841%20ss_zpspwaajltq.jpg.html)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/1%20Reel%20repair/IMAG4848%20ss_zpswxro25rc.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/1%20Reel%20repair/IMAG4848%20ss_zpswxro25rc.jpg.html)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/1%20Reel%20repair/IMAG4845%20ss_zpsoesm3czq.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/1%20Reel%20repair/IMAG4845%20ss_zpsoesm3czq.jpg.html)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/1%20Reel%20repair/IMAG4852%20ss_zps9weptnct.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/1%20Reel%20repair/IMAG4852%20ss_zps9weptnct.jpg.html)
I know my eyesight is not what it use to be and I have never had my Baja apart. Those dogs look like they are cast. If that's the case I doubt if they will ever really stand up.
.................Lou
Quote from: STRIPER LOU on May 03, 2016, 07:14:17 PM
I know my eyesight is not what it use to be ...............Those dogs look like they are cast.
not your sight fault, its because those pics were taken with a cell phone, it was the only thing I had on hand.
and yes, those looks like cast metal, no wonder the stock bronze dogs of 113h/114h senators seems to last a lot longer than Baja dogs.
if only we could put some Keta dogs here too ::) ::)
:o cast dogs! I think Sal is right, a tank is a stronger reel.
I could make some out of 17-4 H900. What would a hard dog do to that ratchet??
Tom
I don't think it would be a problem with the ratchet. It sure wouldn't hurt to try. These are my favorite bottom fishing reels.
I just looked up the part number on MysticParts and found they are the same dogs for the new Penn US Senators, too!
I'll order a few and see what I can do.
"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"
Tom,
Im not an engineer by any means but I think a thicker ratchet and true Stainless Steel dogs (cut from a steel sheet) will be the answer for this problem
or at least we can try to solve most of the problems with stronger Dogs that dont get chewed up on the ends.
Keta, almost a year ago made a ratchet but it was too thin, it was a nice testing product but it needed to be at least twice as thick as the 1 try.
I dont think the stock ratchet is made with the same material than the Baja Dogs but I cant confirm it.
this are stock Dogs and stock ratchet, as you can see the dogs are almost twice as thick compared to the ratchet, and under really strong stress the teeth of the ratchet cut over the dogs.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/carrretes/P1050687%20stock_zpsdruamdwd.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/carrretes/P1050687%20stock_zpsdruamdwd.jpg.html)
Quote from: Cortez_Conversions on May 04, 2016, 12:15:27 AM
I just looked up the part number on MysticParts and found they are the same dogs for the new Penn US Senators, too!
I'll order a few and see what I can do.
"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"
Interesting.
That may work Tom. The 17-4 PH usually Rockwell's on the C scale around 25/27. Its tough stuff. I'd be curious to see how the ratchet likes it. Probably a coat of grease and its good to go.
....................Lou
Quote from: handi2 on May 04, 2016, 12:09:22 AM
I don't think it would be a problem with the ratchet. It sure wouldn't hurt to try. These are my favorite bottom fishing reels.
yep, I also think the same, ratchet could stay, but Dogs need to be made from stronger material, I have some friends (me included) that never leave the Baja Special at home when fishing, for this zone is the perfect reel for trolling and bait fishing on deep reefs.
Quote from: Cortez_Conversions on May 04, 2016, 12:15:27 AM
I just looked up the part number on MysticParts and found they are the same dogs for the new Penn US Senators, too!
I'll order a few and see what I can do.
"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"
there you go, thanks Tom for steping on searching for a solution, we needed a guy with the knowleage and tools to make an upgraded dog for these reels, and now that US senators came to stay for a while more guys will need this upgraded part too.
This issue on the Baja keeps resurfacing, we talked about this before and never got anywhere.
Maybe Tom will get it done this time.
I still recommend a new ratchet to go with the new dogs:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14.msg159300#msg159300
...just my opinion.
Sal
Quote from: Alto Mare on May 04, 2016, 12:50:31 AM
This issue on the Baja keeps resurfacing, we talked about this before and never got anywhere.
Maybe Tom will get it done this time.
I still recommend a new ratchet to go with the new dogs:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14.msg159300#msg159300
...just my opinion.
Sal
well that would be the perfect solution, a ratchet thicker enough to have full contact with the width of the dog
as you see on my 1st pics the dog get damaged depending on the area the ratchet tooth was making contact with the dog and since ratchet teeth are thinner than the dog it just cut trough it.
but yes, totally agree with you, lets see what Tom could do on this issue.
Here is a pic. The bronze Rachet came out of my new US113. The stainless out of a Baja.
I don't know if some are are throwing the lever forward on a hard running fish....I've found that will trash the dogs or rachet in short order & will eventually push the studs the dogs ride on out sideways from the bridge.
However what ever method or material is used for these dogs it's not good.... Jeff
All we can do is read the "tea leaves" on this one. I linked this thread to their service department and they said their engineer is following.
If Penn is changing to a brass ratchet then, in their judgement, the SS ratchet was apparently too hard and apparently the source of damage to the dogs. Something with a little more give is needed to balance the shock of sudden engagement etc. A better balance of materials used etc.
My knock on the current system was mentioned in another thread, something easier to assemble and stay assembled when working on the reel would be preferable.
Regardless, the question, going forward, is if this current solution is adequate. Time will tell.
It would be great if Tom would run some dogs using 17-4 h900 at near max hardness. I would be interested in three sets. The ones i've had fail appear to be sintered form some kind of powdered metal (??).
Regards,
Charlie
The switch to brass may also have been in an attempt to quiet, and smooth the reel down a bit?
It will be interesting to see what developments/changes the future may hold for this model.
John
Quote from: Tightlines666 on May 04, 2016, 09:44:04 PM
The switch to brass may also have been in an attempt to quiet, and smooth the reel down a bit?
This reel is really quiet, if you crank the handle indoors you only hear the dogs working, it's actually a nice sound.
And if you crank the handle fast when fishing the reel is pretty smooth and quiet, no gear sounds at all.
Quote from: Rivverrat on May 04, 2016, 02:33:10 AM
..........& will eventually pull the studs the dogs ride on out sideways from the bridge.
hmm have you found this problem on a Baja special?
this might be the culprit of the Baja reel Im checking, as I wrote in my 1st post, although the reel has new dogs already and new dog springs, after some cranks on the handle and moving the spool lever 2-3 back and forth (activate/dis activate) the reel lose the anti-reverse..
if what you said it a problem the studs where the dogs ride in could have been moved a bit futher and cause the dogs to dont reach the ratchet anymore under a minimal antireverse force.. I need to check that too.
I didnt knew this could happen under heavy drag setting or as you say, it can be caused if someone is trowing the lever on a running fish
Quote from: Rivverrat on May 04, 2016, 02:33:10 AM
............ & will eventually pull the studs the dogs ride on out sideways from the bridge.
... Jeff
Jeff, thanks a lot compadre, your were right
now I know this Baja Special reel had two problems, the dogs material used and the studs move sideway under lot of pressure causing new dogs to dont reach the ratchet after few cranks when installed.
so boys and girls, next time your Baja Special or US Senator have trasher dogs, check the studs of the bridge too.
check these next pics from my friend's reel, I will remark he uses the reel at leat 3-4 times per week on his sporfishing panga business, according to him he uses 300yds 50# braid as filler and 60# mono to the top used as long leader on this reel, and normally bottoned tight to get the fish out from the structure.
front side view
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/1%20Reel%20repair/P1070459%20ss_zpsrbfesvbc.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/1%20Reel%20repair/P1070459%20ss_zpsrbfesvbc.jpg.html)
rear side view
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/1%20Reel%20repair/P1070456%20ss_zps7fihphwx.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/1%20Reel%20repair/P1070456%20ss_zps7fihphwx.jpg.html)
maybe he is just putting this reel capabilities to the max on every fishing trip to have this kind of issues.
new bridge is coming his way.
this post is never intended to talk trash about the Baja Special, heck Im actually looking to get a US Senator standar widtn or another used Baja Special, these reels work wonders on this water, if you are a weekend warrior, the reel will last years with no problems and if you use it as loaner on a charter the cost of yearly maintenance and repair its not that bad $4 for dogs and $25 for new bridge, fill it with braid line cost 2x more than that.
this post is never intended to talk trash about the Baja Special
There isn't anything wrong with pointing out the good and the bad on a reel, this helps manufacturers produce a better product, I'm sure Penn appreciates everyone's opinion.
Could you show a pic of the under side of that bridge, or could you let me know if the dog posts are peened ?
Thanks Alex.
Quote from: Alto Mare on May 08, 2016, 06:34:00 AM
Could you show a pic of the under side of that bridge, or could you let me know if the dog posts are peened ?
Thanks Alex.
That's a good point Sal, looking at Steelfish's photos in the first post of this thread, it looks like the posts aren't peened. If the posts were installed flush with the back of the bridge, it also shows they have pulled through a bit.
Mike
Steelfish, I'm unable to say just how glad I am that I was able to help.
Through my own destructive testing the US113 has taught me a lot. At one time I was buying every Baja or US113 that I could get cheap & then set about seeing what kind of abuse it could handle. This reel has shown me what to look for in other reels I purchase for my heavy line use.
Let me just say I REALLY LIKE THIS REEL ! For a U.S. made star drag reel at its price, producing the drag it does & with its casting ability there is nothing I'm aware of that comes close. However as some of us have found this reel could use some improvements when it comes to fishing it at its higher range. My looking into these issues has lead me to believe the reason why they have not come up earlier is because most who have made use of this reel in the past & present load it with 40 - 50 lb. line. Also it seems a lot of people who fish all the time turn their nose at this reel.
When fishing this reel in the 25 lb. drag range I've found filling the reel to to within a 1/4" - 1/2" of its spool capacity goes a long ways to help alleviate some of the issues I've experienced. 30 lbs. or more drag can be had if one can get by fishing this reel reel short of its capacity. When doing this an appropriate rod is a necessity because turning the handle at this drag aint happening with this reel for any length of time while it's in the hands of a mere mortal.
Changes I would like to see.....
1} The studs for the dogs at the very least need to be of a bigger diameter where they fit into the bridge. This would give the peening process more area to purchase & spread the load out. The topside where the dogs fit can be same diameter. These studs are the foundation of strength for this reel. At the same time I realize the thinking behind designing a safe failure point. However there is still room for that here while also strengthening this area.
2} This nonsense of a an anti reverse system.... Could there possibly be an upgrade kit made to purchase? At this point silent style dogs or spring of a different design would be so much of an improvement.
3} OK I get it. Probably wont happen. But how about some lower gears so those of us mortals using this reel have some chance at turning the handle while making use of the drag this reel makes ?....Jeff
Steelfish, forgot to mention the peening has been weak on some reels I've seen. I'm not a big fan of these post/studs being peened in place....Jeff
Quote from: Alto Mare on May 08, 2016, 06:34:00 AM
Could you show a pic of the under side of that bridge, or could you let me know if the dog posts are peened ?
Sal,
I have some pictures as you requested, and some better front pictures of how the studs are bent
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/1%20Reel%20repair/P1070470%20ss_zps7ho7tylp.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/1%20Reel%20repair/P1070470%20ss_zps7ho7tylp.jpg.html)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/1%20Reel%20repair/P1070472%20ss_zpsppkmgsms.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/1%20Reel%20repair/P1070472%20ss_zpsppkmgsms.jpg.html)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/1%20Reel%20repair/P1070474%20ss_zpsxhh9ujpt.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/1%20Reel%20repair/P1070474%20ss_zpsxhh9ujpt.jpg.html)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/1%20Reel%20repair/P1070481%20ss_zpseknoyqds.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/1%20Reel%20repair/P1070481%20ss_zpseknoyqds.jpg.html)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/1%20Reel%20repair/P1070483%20ss_zps3vlsdf7f.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/1%20Reel%20repair/P1070483%20ss_zps3vlsdf7f.jpg.html)
I dont know if adding a drop of a really strong epoxic on the base of the stud and them punch it back with a hammer will make that bridge work again.
Jeff, really interesting proposed changes on your last post.
You know, I was thinking that they could have gone with the same technique of using the screws that attach the sideplate and the bridge as stud for the dog as its used on the rest of the Senator family, I have never seen a bridge screw on a 113h / 114h bent like that.
but as you said, that will never happen on a setup like this one, Alan (black pear) just did a double dog bridge like this one for the 113h (damn it, I just cancelled my order for one, ooh well), it would have been nice to have it at this moment and check how he put the studs on his DD bridge.
I will have to order one later from Smoothdrag.
Alex, great pics! thanks.
I am a fan of peening the posts, it has been working for Penn well over 80 years, I just don't see why they changed it.
If the two posts were peened, I could pretty much bet what you see would have never happened.
Peening keeps the post square to the bridge, while the post itself absorbs the load.
I'm surprised Penn decided to go with a stainless steel post press fit into a softer material :-\.
By the way, Pro Challenger's posts are peened in place.
Sal
Quote from: Alto Mare on May 08, 2016, 09:16:36 PM
By the way, Pro Challenger's posts are peened in place.
Sal
And in a stainless steel plate.
Sal, these dog post are in fact peened slightly on the bottom. When I stated I dont like peening I was speaking of the method used here. This is not a rare occurrence when this reel is used above 20 lbs. of drag. Id much rather see a press fit & then hard soldered or brazed. However that would drive the up cost.
I know a lot of people like the idea of a stainless bridge I admit it would be nice but strength wise I dont believe it is necessary here for a reel that is to be fished below 30 lbs drag....Jeff
I recall from an earlier post that Penn attributed the problem to a batch of ratchets that were badly dished from being stamped on a dull die. It looks like that ratchet has a pretty bad dish, which may affect how the dogs engage.
Quote from: Three se7ens on May 09, 2016, 02:28:57 AM
I recall from an earlier post that Penn attributed the problem to a batch of ratchets that were badly dished from being stamped on a dull die. It looks like that ratchet has a pretty bad dish, which may affect how the dogs engage.
Along with new bridge this reel wil have a new ratchet too, new dogs and springs, will see if Scotts carry new ones in perfect shape.
Dont get your hopes up regarding the ratchet. The ones I've received from Scott's are bowed from being stamped.
Wayne check the subject matter above. Sheesh... ::) Dominick
Quote from: Dominick on May 09, 2016, 11:46:17 PM
Wayne check the subject matter above. Sheesh... ::) Dominick
Happy now????? ;D
Next time together, wine is on YOU!
Wayne
Quote from: Dominick on May 09, 2016, 11:46:17 PM
Wayne check the subject matter above. Sheesh... ::) Dominick
Well, what subject & exactly what did Wayne find out ?
Quote from: Rivverrat on May 10, 2016, 12:31:04 AM
Quote from: Dominick on May 09, 2016, 11:46:17 PM
Wayne check the subject matter above. Sheesh... ::) Dominick
Well, what subject & exactly what did Wayne find out ?
Rivverrat,
What Wayne found out was he was moving too fast, and put a post for Flexx rap on this thread and not the thread where Aiala asked her question re: Finger wrap tape.
All is now calm! I hear my Mother's voice telling me, as a 10 year old boy, "Wayne, Slow Down!"
Wayne
OH....I wanted to be sure I was not coming across wrong or slighting Scott's in any way. I use them pretty much exclusively for all my new parts & find them to be a wealth of information. I feel better now...Jeff
The machining nor material selection match up very well between the ratchet and dogs.
I think Sal nailed it early, the photos tell the story, somebody who loves these reels needs to solve this for the Penn Reel Heads of AT.
Steelfish, is your friend using scales to set his drag?
The brass sleeve is showing evidence of being fished well above 20 lbs. of drag. Those marks on the sleeve are the washers cutting into the sleeve. Where the ratchet rides on the sleeve is showing evidence also. I've not witnessed this happening on this reel when fished at or below the 20 lb. level. Not when everything else is within specs. Only other scenario I'm aware of that can cause this at these drag settings is throwing the lever forward on a hard running fish.
I would also like to state I am in no way claiming to be an expert on this stuff. I just have an intense infatuation with the river I fish & the gear I use. I am very thankful to have found this sight & be able to share & learn from those who suffer the same malady....Jeff
Yesterday I pre serviced a US113N. Same as we know.
The reel was getting only 20lbs on the scale with the reel rated at 27lbs.
The bellvilles were rubbing the side plate at 20lbs. I shimmed on top of the bearing and now get 30lbs.
After a year I guess we will see what happens to the AR system.
Quote from: Rivverrat on May 10, 2016, 03:35:12 PM
Steelfish, is your friend using scales to set his drag?
...Jeff
Jeff, nop scale is used to set the drag, theses local fishing guides set the drag "feeling it" pulling the line off the reel, I have never tested what they claim to set the drag manually, tho.
but normally all senators 4/0, 6/0 and the Baja are used to go after the big groupers on the Baja reefs, not surprise that they are used above 20#
no wonder why he fried the dogs and bridge studs
mine it been set on a scale on 15-17# drag when the reel is on rod and using a scale at the end of the line.
Quote from: handi2 on May 10, 2016, 03:56:26 PM
Yesterday I pre serviced a US113N. Same as we know.
The reel was getting only 20lbs on the scale with the reel rated at 27lbs.
The bellvilles were rubbing the side plate at 20lbs. I shimmed on top of the bearing and now get 30lbs.
After a year I guess we will see what happens to the AR system.
Nice finding on the shim Keith
Can you tell what did you used to shim on top of the bearing?
this might help a lot this reels used above 20#
All of the new US113 that Ive seen, which isn't many, will rub on the side plate when the drag is pushed beyond 20 lbs. Careful fishing this reel as it comes at 30 lbs. steady use at this setting or slightly above will bring the need for parts. Probably sooner than later.
Penn states 27lbs on the reel.
If he cranks it down hard and something breaks I will send it back to Penn.
I understand. I've been told directly on the phone by an individual at Penn these reels are fine fished at that level of drag. I do not in any way believe I was being mislead or lied to. The issue I believe is not many people fish & even fewer fish this reel past 15 - 20 lbs. Short term test would lead one to believe this reel could & would do it. But with the acceptance of braid, capacity is no longer the same issue & people are stepping up the line class.
I think with some minor enhancements this reel could live a long life fished around 25 lbs or more....Jeff
Thanks to the folks that have posted photos- this provided lots of useful data
So how much force is is being placed on the dog posts? I don't have the exact dimensions for the reel but will approximate:
Assuming a filled spool is 3 in., ratchet diameter is .8 in, and the gear ratio is 4.3:1 - we can plug this into the handy calculator - third formula posted by (me..): http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14241.0
and we get 435 lbs of force at 27 lbs of drag (assuming my math is correct).
The dogs essentially float on the dog spring near the top of the post. Every time the the reel is flipped into gear and the drag starts slipping, it is like smacking the top of dog post with a hammer at 435 lbs of force. Also letting go of the handle while the dogs engage. Then include the additional wear and tear from the steady load under any time the reel is in gear. I would speculate that the portion of the post that fits inside the bridge being a smaller diameter would also contribute to what is essentially an issue caused by designed-in unnecessary leverage.
Any wear on the dog post hole in the brass (soft metal) bridge further converts the lateral force to a vertical force driving the post up and out of the hole. Any upward tilt on the dog would make this worse. Or in simpler terms, this design leads to more angular force and leverage against the post hole than most other salt water conventional star drag designs. A more common design is to keep the dogs at the bottom of the post and supported by the bridge- keeping the force in a more lateral direction.
I may be totally wrong here, but I would wager that any solution that did not sufficiently resolve the leverage issue will not fix the problem. And if I am right, the next question is, was Penn's placement of the dog/ratchet assembly well above the bridge a design oversight, an economic decision, or a necessary evil to address another design constraint?
Sal made what I thought was a pretty good proposal that has a decent chance of addressing the root cause, It would only require replacement dogs, ratchet and springs. I have another idea or two as well (not sure if they are better than Sal's) - if somebody wants to try to make an upgrade- feel free to PM me. I personally am not interested in doing this.
As to whether this problem occurs when the reel is being used within specs- I'll leave that for others to decide
But for purposes of comparison, just this week I was fishing with a Baja pangero's daily driver 113h- it was an older model with the chrome posts (one missing). 60 lb test with the drag buttoned down for yellowtail and amberjack. I had to rail the rod and sit on the handle to keep it from going overboard on a big yellowtail. This reel has probably caught a ridiculous amount of jumbo yellowtail, a bunch of marlin, sailfish and amberjack, and might not ever have been serviced. It was a bit corroded.
Everything mechanical on the reel was pretty sloppy and worn, but it was still getting the job done. Will the Baja Special/ US Senator fare as well?
-J
jurelometer, you make some very valid points. I have also reasoned that the dogs riding so high above the bridge & high on their post contributes in a big way to the issues I & others are experiencing. Im looking into cost of coming up with something better. You have a PM....Jeff
One other thing: has anyone heard anything further from Penn on this issue? No reason to do an upgrade ourselves if Penn is going to step up.
Quote from: jurelometer on May 12, 2016, 08:48:55 PM
One other thing: has anyone heard anything further from Penn on this issue? No reason to do an upgrade ourselves if Penn is going to step up.
if you can do something to upgrade those parts go for it, Penn have keeping an eye on this supposedly but never heard anything from them other than a new and softer ratchet.
I wish I have the skill and tools to try to make an improvement but Im not LOL.
its really good to hear guys searching for an improvement on this reel, just look at it as Alan T/ Alan C, Lee, etc.. have made stronger parts for the good old reels 113h/114h/112h, etc
I'm going to try my best to get something done for you guys.
Maybe even in time for Sal to give a set to Tony when they do their tour next week.
Awesome, Tom.
thanks,
Quote from: Cortez_Conversions on May 13, 2016, 05:43:21 PM
I'm going to try my best to get something done for you guys.
Maybe even in time for Sal to give a set to Tony when they do their tour next week.
This is good stuff!
That would be great Tom, the only problem, it needs to be in the mail by Wednesday, maybe Thursday :-\.
I head down to Loreto the 26th of next month and have a 113HN new in box that I bought about 7 years ago. The reel is spooled with straight 40 lb mono. I could bring that reel down if you would like some testing and then send the parts back to you too look at.
You may want to test it on heavier drags than the 40 lb line though. I could fish bait, yoyo iron and even put it into the trolling we do.
I ordered a new bridge set and Ebayed a donor reel. Here are my two cents in no particular order:
Penn tried to cut cost by making a two piece gear sleeve.
I had to file the handle step on the donor gear sleeve because the brass was deformed and I couldn't remove the gear and drag stack.
This could be solved with a stainless sleeve or more meat for the handle to rest on..
The stamped ratchet is no bueno. The donor and new ratchet both are cupped which gives a poor alignment with the dogs.
Dogs are still cast. Casting material does not do well with shock. I.E. striking the ratchet and or the ratchet back peddling with hook set into the dogs.
In Alexs'(steelfish) pic you can clearly see how the dogs are tilted, there is way too much slop in the assembly.
All the back pressure is directed at one sharp edge of the dog. this is what causes the dogs to chip and fracture.
Once the dogs break down, they get pulled down between the ratchet and the dog post. This is what splays the dog posts.
So my attempt at a fix:
This pic shows the new dog posts and a 1" diameter delrin washer unter the gear.
Notice they keep the dogs nice and true to the ratchet?
The posts are pressed into the bridge AND screwed in From the back side so they can't bow out.
Now that the dogs are held square, the ratchet only engages on the top half of the dogs.
(http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag109/Cortez_Conversions/thumbnail_IMG_0596_zpsguvchkfc.jpg)
To be continued.......
Dog posts look really good..
It looks like the ratchet teeth need to be more then twice as wide as they are now to engage with a full bite on the dogs. Rudy
Good job.
I gotta admit, i've been sort of following this from a distance and wondering what the problem is. The ratchet sucks, so just make a new one. Wider face, with a recess or counterbore to bring it down a few millimeters. Not a big deal for several members of this site.
The dogs suck, so make new ones, as again several members of this site already do.
The dog posts suck, so make longer ones that can be peened on the back side.
Quote...and we get 435 lbs of force at 27 lbs of drag (assuming my math is correct)
Well, i didn't work too hard on it, but that number seemed really unreasonable at first glance. Giving it a closer look, it seems to me to be about 70 pounds.
(Which doesn't take into account the height of the dogs high up on the posts, and presumes a purely tangential force between dog post and ratchet, or that there are two dogs, so thats 35 lbs each if they are synchronous)
It doesn't take into account that i haven'had enough coffee taday either though.
.
I put a full width Delrin washer under the gear of the new US113N. It covers the top of the dog posts. It probably has no ill effect.
Quote from: Robert Janssen on May 14, 2016, 02:50:37 PM
Quote...and we get 435 lbs of force at 27 lbs of drag (assuming my math is correct)
Well, i didn't work too hard on it, but that number seemed really unreasonable at first glance. Giving it a closer look, it seems to me to be about 70 pounds.
(Which doesn't take into account the height of the dogs high up on the posts, and presumes a purely tangential force between dog post and ratchet, or that there are two dogs, so thats 35 lbs each if they are synchronous)
It doesn't take into account that i haven'had enough coffee taday either though.
.
Hmm,
Well maybe my problem is too much coffee :)
Can Robert or some other physics whiz show what is wrong with my formula? I included the reasoning below.
I am doing a basic calculation and skipping any angular or off center loads. The idea is to determine the amount of load generated if the system is behaving perfectly. This gives us a ballpark idea of the forces involved.
-----
The question: for a given drag setting at a given spool fullness- how much force is being plsced upon the dog post?
-----
Variables:
Linear load (drag setting): 27 lbs
Spool Radius: 1.5 in
Gear Raio: 4.3:1
ratchet radius: .4 in
-----
1. Torque measured at spool : 27*1.5 = 40.5 pound-in (adjust load proportionally to account for pound-in being a 1 inch arm lever- we have all seen at the same torque (star setting), the drag goes up proportionally to the spool radius shrinking as line goes out).
2. Torque measured at main gear: 40.5 *4.3 =174.15 (the amount of rotational effort goes up proportionally to gear ratio, as any two-speed reel user will attest).
3. Convert torque on main gear to force on ratchet.
174.15/ .4 = 435.375 (this is the inverse of force to torque – we need to convert from pounds of directional force at 1 in (i.e, torque) to lbs of force at 0.4 in (the ratchet contact point). the shorter length means that we should adjust upward proportionately).
Thanks,
-J
Still working on my morning coffee here, but the thing was that 435 was just a really big number. 435 lbs... that is like the weight of a motorcycle. How did we get from a fishing reel to a motorcycle? It seemed unright.
So I looked at it like you did, did the math the same way, same thing. Looked at it and reduced it bit more logically: Two levers, one minus the other, times the gear ratio.
So the 1.5 on the spool minus the 0.4 from the ratchet = 1.1, and then the 27 lbs and the gear ratio bit.
(two levers... the spool and the ratchet. Imagine they were pointing the same direction, upwards in a diagram. Now imagine they were of equal length. How would things work out then? The force on the ratchet woul become less as size increased, right?)
Quote...show what is wrong with my formula?
I think it is that part right there.... that divided by, ought to be an X. That's all.
Well, anyway, that about that then... going for a refill now.
Having the spring under the dog may be part of the problem. That lets the dog tilt upward and get more leverage against the post. From the scoring on the bottom of the main gear it appears the dogs tilted upward (away from the bridge) when they failed. If they had tilted the other direction they would have chewed up the ratchet. The rounding of the ratchet when it was stamped may not have been a contributing factor.
Looks like there is plenty of room there to install something better. But, shouldn't the fisher expect more from a reel designed and manufactured in the U.S.?
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on May 16, 2016, 09:01:59 AM
Having the spring under the dog may be part of the problem. That lets the dog tilt upward and get more leverage against the post. From the scoring on the bottom of the main gear it appears the dogs tilted upward (away from the bridge) when they failed. If they had tilted the other direction they would have chewed up the ratchet. The rounding of the ratchet when it was stamped may not have been a contributing factor.
Looks like there is plenty of room there to install something better. But, shouldn't the fisher expect more from a reel designed and manufactured in the U.S.?
-steve
I agree Steve.
We are paying a premium for these reels because we expect quality from Penn.
I have new dogs made and am half way done with a new ratchet. The reel I'm using actually sounds different now that the dogs are held square. the dogs are ticking smoothly and because of proper engagement are a bit louder.
I still think the dog post splay is from the dogs breaking down, the reel losing anti reverse and pulling the dogs thru the gap.
With the dogs so poorly aligned, it wedges, and at that moment pushes the posts away.
I think I'll have everything done this afternoon.
Tom
Tom, looking forward to your re-design. Hope you have plans to offer this in kit form.
Greg
I finished the ratchet and everything looks good.
The only problem is I lost the sub shaft pinion! New one on it's way....I can't do any testing with mine until that shaft arrives
Sorry I won't have this done for you guys to take to Penn.
Anyway, I need to build a few sets and do some testing.
Rusty old colt has volunteered, how about you steelfish? Can I send a bridge to you to torture test?
I need one more angler who can get these on the water immediately...
Thanks all.
Tom
Tom... not immediate... but going for tuna the 27th, 28th on the Prowler out of SD.
113HN going with me
steve
Quote from: Cortez_Conversions on May 17, 2016, 03:52:19 AM
Anyway, I need to build a few sets and do some testing.
Rusty old colt has volunteered, how about you steelfish? Can I send a bridge to you to torture test?
I need one more angler who can get these on the water immediately...
Thanks all.
Tom
I fee honored with your offer
If course I can give some hard use to those parts
Quote from: swill88 on May 17, 2016, 04:56:55 AM
Tom... not immediate... but going for tuna the 27th, 28th on the Prowler out of SD.
113HN going with me
steve
Sounds good Steve,
Please PM your address.
Tom
Quote from: steelfish on May 17, 2016, 05:24:51 AM
Quote from: Cortez_Conversions on May 17, 2016, 03:52:19 AM
Anyway, I need to build a few sets and do some testing.
Rusty old colt has volunteered, how about you steelfish? Can I send a bridge to you to torture test?
I need one more angler who can get these on the water immediately...
Thanks all.
Tom
I fee honored with your offer
If course I can give some hard use to those parts
damn cell phone
=============================
I feel honored with your offer, Tom
of course I can give some hard use to those parts and let you know how they holded after few weeks of use.
Tom we use 4 Baja's offshore in my 31' boat. They are the go to reel when bottom fishing. Everyone grabs them first because of the gear ratio.
If not using them we use Avet's and Trinidad's.
I would have no problem using your ratchet in a new US113N that's pulling 30lbs on the drag scale. More than I can get with the identical Baja.
Keith
Quote from: handi2 on May 17, 2016, 05:41:03 PM
I would have no problem using your ratchet in a new US113N that's pulling 30lbs on the drag scale. More than I can get with the identical Baja.
Keith
what did you do to this US113hn to reach more drag of an equal Baja Specia?
just the delrin under the gear?
Im using a delrin washer on top of the dragstack, it barely fit but works good
Some pics. You can see the evident stress on the sleeve & post better by clicking on the picture. This reel was being fished past 30 lbs. of drag In heavy current. Cat was not much more than 50 lbs. Got a good look at him prior to reel going knuckle buster. As can be seen here & on all other sleeves Ive done this on, the threads on the sleeve will begin to strip out when cranking the drag down far & hard enough to get 30+ lbs. of drag. I would like to say I've no expectation of this reel to continually fish 30 plus lbs. of drag. I just wished to see what would happen.
Steelfish, the star on the US113 rubs on the side plate when its cranked down hard. Some thicker washers raises the star further above the side plate allowing more drag....Jeff
I shimmed on top of the handle side bearing so the star wouldn't hit the side plate. I have stripped the star on a Baja last year.
It probably won't get fished at 30lbs. That's too much to hold for most folks.
Quote from: Cortez_Conversions on May 17, 2016, 01:12:46 PM
Quote from: swill88 on May 17, 2016, 04:56:55 AM
Tom... not immediate... but going for tuna the 27th, 28th on the Prowler out of SD.
113HN going with me
steve
Sounds good Steve,
Please PM your address.
Tom
Thanks Tom... will take pics before during and after.
I want to be like Alan!
Steve
Quote from: handi2 on May 17, 2016, 09:09:47 PM
It probably won't get fished at 30lbs. That's too much to hold for most folks.
I totally understand, on my last fishing trip I caught a big Sierra, which it was caught by a big fat Sea Lion, so it was me Vs the mad train, the line was holding, the lure was holding, the rod was holding and the reel was holding but I was about to go overboard if continue to hold the rod few more seconds, I had the release a bit of drag to let the line run and the the sea lion to chew on the fish more to get my lure back
When all this is hashed out I'm going to get the bullet proof CORTEZ Baja!
Quote from: Robert Janssen on May 16, 2016, 04:04:41 AM
Still working on my morning coffee here, but the thing was that 435 was just a really big number. 435 lbs... that is like the weight of a motorcycle. How did we get from a fishing reel to a motorcycle? It seemed unright.
So I looked at it like you did, did the math the same way, same thing. Looked at it and reduced it bit more logically: Two levers, one minus the other, times the gear ratio.
So the 1.5 on the spool minus the 0.4 from the ratchet = 1.1, and then the 27 lbs and the gear ratio bit.
(two levers... the spool and the ratchet. Imagine they were pointing the same direction, upwards in a diagram. Now imagine they were of equal length. How would things work out then? The force on the ratchet woul become less as size increased, right?)
Quote...show what is wrong with my formula?
I think it is that part right there.... that divided by, ought to be an X. That's all.
Well, anyway, that about that then... going for a refill now.
Thanks Robert !!
I am sticking to my guns on this. It looks like you are redefining the force to torque formula for one of the legs.
So here is an alternate description – I am going to do this backwards starting with the amount of force on the dogs and see how each moment arm and gear ratio affects the force.
----
1. The drag is tightended until it will not slip until the dog post hits 435.375 pounds of force.
2. Using the basic textbook formula (assumes a 90 degree angle at the moment arm, etc.)
force*radius = torque
435.375 *.4 = 174.15 pound-in
This is the torque on the main gear when the drag is slipping.
3. In order to place 174.15 pound-in of torque on the main gear, we need to apply torque to the pinion. Since one turn of the main gear equals 4.3 turns of the pinion, the torque is adjusted down proportionally.
174.15 / 4.3 = 40.5 pound-in
So the drag won't slip until we have 40.5 pound-in of torque on the spool.
4. If the radius of the spool was one in inch then it would require 40.5 lbs of force pulling the line to make the drag slip.
At 1.5 inch spool radius, it takes less force to to turn the spool at the same torque value. we can use the inverse of the force to torque function:
torque/radius = force
40.5/1.5= 27 lbs.
I still cannot see the error. But being self (non)trained in physics- I must confess to still not being completely confident.
On a related note:
1. A star drag has to have the anti-reverse mechanism after the main gear (because that is where the drag is), but that multiplies the force on the dog/ratchet, and requires the gears to carry the load to the drag. Lever drags have the ability to have the dog/ratchet all the way ahead of the pinon, bypassing the gear torque multiplier problem and eliminating stress on the gears. But some lever drags still don't take advantage of this opportunity. Many of the larger spinning reels also use the drag-anti-reverse ahead of the gears technique. Less force on the dogs/anti-reverse, and no stress on the gears until you wind under load (at which point you are informed that you have violated the warranty by using the reel incorrectly ??? )
2. If you set the drag at the maximum supported value when the spool is full, you will violate the warranty if you are not continually backing down on the drag as line is being taken. If you want to wait until the spool is half the original radius, you would have to set the drag at half the maximum.
-J
Quote from: Cortez_Conversions on May 16, 2016, 12:38:20 PM
Quote from: oc1 on May 16, 2016, 09:01:59 AM
Having the spring under the dog may be part of the problem. That lets the dog tilt upward and get more leverage against the post. From the scoring on the bottom of the main gear it appears the dogs tilted upward (away from the bridge) when they failed. If they had tilted the other direction they would have chewed up the ratchet. The rounding of the ratchet when it was stamped may not have been a contributing factor.
Looks like there is plenty of room there to install something better. But, shouldn't the fisher expect more from a reel designed and manufactured in the U.S.?
-steve
I agree Steve.
We are paying a premium for these reels because we expect quality from Penn.
I have new dogs made and am half way done with a new ratchet. The reel I'm using actually sounds different now that the dogs are held square. the dogs are ticking smoothly and because of proper engagement are a bit louder.
I still think the dog post splay is from the dogs breaking down, the reel losing anti reverse and pulling the dogs thru the gap.
With the dogs so poorly aligned, it wedges, and at that moment pushes the posts away.
I think I'll have everything done this afternoon.
Tom
Hi Tom,
First of all... NICE!!!
Can the original stock posts just be punched out of the bridge, or is the process a bit more involved?
Looking forward to the test results.
Post are slightly peened to enlarge for tight fit. I've easily removed them with a punch.
You know, the more I think about it, I'm leaning towards a one piece gear sleeve.
There isn't much meat on the ledge where the handle sits. I had to file the deformed material off before I could get the drag stack and bearings off.
It's gonna cost you guys more, but you will only have to replace it once!
I think the kit will consist of the following:
Hardened stainless steel gear sleeve.
Hardened stainless steel dog set with springs.
Modified Bridge. I want to ream the dog post holes true before pressing in the new posts.
Stainless screws and washers for the dog posts.
Thoughts?
Tom, my thoughts are:
it sounds like you are on the right path - fix all potential issues 1st time around
your engineering and products are top quality
I will upgrade my Baja with whatever you come up with, or get rid of it.
thanks for all you do, keep up the great work, really glad you have taken up this project.
Quote from: vilters on May 19, 2016, 04:51:35 PM
Tom, my thoughts are:
it sounds like you are on the right path - fix all potential issues 1st time around
your engineering and products are top quality
I will upgrade my Baja with whatever you come up with, or get rid of it.
thanks for all you do, keep up the great work, really glad you have taken up this project.
.. you took the words from my mouth.
now this is the best example for the next image
(http://thewatchlounge.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpg)
whatever you come up to fix this, Im in
Tanque Baja
Gracias!
Quote from: Cortez_Conversions on May 19, 2016, 03:55:26 PM
You know, the more I think about it, I'm leaning towards a one piece gear sleeve.
There isn't much meat on the ledge where the handle sits. I had to file the deformed material off before I could get the drag stack and bearings off.
It's gonna cost you guys more, but you will only have to replace it once!
I think the kit will consist of the following:
Hardened stainless steel gear sleeve.
Hardened stainless steel dog set with springs.
Modified Bridge. I want to ream the dog post holes true before pressing in the new posts.
Stainless screws and washers for the dog posts.
Thoughts?
A bunch of thoughts:
1. If the goal is to make the most useful upgrade, then the fewer/cheaper parts needed to get the job done the better. On the other hand if the goal is hotrodding the reel, then getting the most performance out of each upgrade makes the most sense, with less emphasis on cost and complexity.
2. We don't know what the next failure down the line will be. A highly robust fix for the current problem doesn't help much if we are talking about a short trip to the next failure under load.
3. Based on this and other threads, the leading candidates for the next failure are the gear sleeve (your fix could take care of this), and the floating pinion/spool junction.
4. If you do make a new gear sleeve, there were some complaints that it was a thread or two short for the handle nut. I think this can be found in one of the later posts in Alan T's original review of the reel. Maybe part of the problem in the area of "meat on the ledge"?
5. There are other reels with ratchets separate to the gear sleeves, it allows for a much larger ratchet without machining down tons of material. While a new stainless gear sleeve looks like a good idea, would it be cheaper to have a separate ratchet? But it looks like some sort of gear sleeve upgrade is probably part of the necessary fix. Also, it would be nice to avoid a re-machined bridge if the goals favors minimized cost.
6. The post under the gear sleeve probably doesn't have to be very strong if the reel also has the Penn supplied upgrade that includes a bearing in the sideplate that supports the other side side of the gear sleeve. I think this upgrade is included in the US Senators and later versions of the Baja Special. So anybody building out this reel probably wants this upgrade as well. Less value in having a stronger assembly if the main gear (and ratchet) can be can be levered under force.
7. Testing!
This is something that doesn't necessarily have to be done by Tom.
It might be worthwhile to bench test the existing reel to the point where damage starts occurring, and then see how far any upgrade goes before the next failure (either in the anti-reverse or some other system) occurred. Field testing is also useful, but a bench test demonstrating greater load capacity would be useful in both verifying the fix is ready for field and generating confidence.
I can think of three interesting types of load testing. The first is steady load - line being taken at constant smooth rate. The second is the fast spinning freespool to engaged under load. The third is the angler cranking under heavy load (lateral load on the gear sleeve), then letting the handle swing back until the dog engages.
The first two tests are not too tricky to set up, the third is probably too difficult, and better suited to field (real life user) testing.
It would also be interesting to mount a fully assembled bridge, dog, drag stack, handle, etc on a flat surface and watch/film/photo what the dogs and ratchet do as backward winding load is increasingly applied to the handle (use a drag scale and the amount of force could be replicated when testing an upgrade).
Jeff (Riverrrat) has been doing some testing and photographing the outcome of load testing on these reels, so I don't know if he has anything to add here.
8. I wonder if Penn went down this path, and found enough issues that they decided an upgrade was not cost effective for them (not us), especially considering the limited number of these reels out there (and only a fraction of these regularly pushed to the limit). Just too many things to fix to get it right for the amount of customers with problem reels. If this is correct, it seems the folks that would be interested in a viable upgrade will be limited to the hotrodders and hardcore Penn fans (you know who you are :D). At this point, cost becomes much less of a factor.
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on May 18, 2016, 02:30:21 AM
I still cannot see the error. But being self (non)trained in physics- I must confess to still not being completely confident.
Be confident. Your physics is correct.
Quote from: Cortez_Conversions on May 19, 2016, 03:55:26 PM
You know, the more I think about it, I'm leaning towards a one piece gear sleeve.
There isn't much meat on the ledge where the handle sits. I had to file the deformed material off before I could get the drag stack and bearings off.
It's gonna cost you guys more, but you will only have to replace it once!
I think the kit will consist of the following:
Hardened stainless steel gear sleeve.
Hardened stainless steel dog set with springs.
Modified Bridge. I want se ream the dog post holes true before pressing in the new posts.
Stainless screws and washers for the dog posts.
Thoughts?
Quote from: jurelometer on May 19, 2016, 06:23:06 PM
Quote from: Cortez_Conversions on May 19, 2016, 03:55:26 PM
You know, the more I think about it, I'm leaning towards a one piece gear sleeve.
There isn't much meat on the ledge where the handle sits. I had to file the deformed material off before I could get the drag stack and bearings off.
It's gonna cost you guys more, but you will only have to replace it once!
I think the kit will consist of the following:
Hardened stainless steel gear sleeve.
Hardened stainless steel dog set with springs.
Modified Bridge. I want to ream the dog post holes true before pressing in the new posts.
Stainless screws and washers for the dog posts.
Thoughts?
A bunch of thoughts:
1. If the goal is to make the most useful upgrade, then the fewer/cheaper parts needed to get the job done the better. On the other hand if the goal is hotrodding the reel, then getting the most performance out of each upgrade makes the most sense, with less emphasis on cost and complexity.
2. We don't know what the next failure down the line will be. A highly robust fix for the current problem doesn't help much if we are talking about a short trip to the next failure under load.
3. Based on this and other threads, the leading candidates for the next failure are the gear sleeve (your fix could take care of this), and the floating pinion/spool junction.
4. If you do make a new gear sleeve, there were some complaints that it was a thread or two short for the handle nut. I think this can be found in one of the later posts in Alan T's original review of the reel. Maybe part of the problem in the area of "meat on the ledge"?
5. There are other reels with ratchets separate to the gear sleeves, it allows for a much larger ratchet without machining down tons of material. While a new stainless gear sleeve looks like a good idea, would it be cheaper to have a separate ratchet? But it looks like some sort of gear sleeve upgrade is probably part of the necessary fix. Also, it would be nice to avoid a re-machined bridge if the goals favors minimized cost.
6. The post under the gear sleeve probably doesn't have to be very strong if the reel also has the Penn supplied upgrade that includes a bearing in the sideplate that supports the other side side of the gear sleeve. I think this upgrade is included in the US Senators and later versions of the Baja Special. So anybody building out this reel probably wants this upgrade as well. Less value in having a stronger assembly if the main gear (and ratchet) can be can be levered under force.
7. Testing!
This is something that doesn't necessarily have to be done by Tom.
It might be worthwhile to bench test the existing reel to the point where damage starts occurring, and then see how far any upgrade goes before the next failure (either in the anti-reverse or some other system) occurred. Field testing is also useful, but a bench test demonstrating greater load capacity would be useful in both verifying the fix is ready for field and generating confidence.
I can think of three interesting types of load testing. The first is steady load - line being taken at constant smooth rate. The second is the fast spinning freespool to engaged under load. The third is the angler cranking under heavy load (lateral load on the gear sleeve), then letting the handle swing back until the dog engages.
The first two tests are not too tricky to set up, the third is probably too difficult, and better suited to field (real life user) testing.
It would also be interesting to mount a fully assembled bridge, dog, drag stack, handle, etc on a flat surface and watch/film/photo what the dogs and ratchet do as backward winding load is increasingly applied to the handle (use a drag scale and the amount of force could be replicated when testing an upgrade).
Jeff (Riverrrat) has been doing some testing and photographing the outcome of load testing on these reels, so I don't know if he has anything to add here.
8. I wonder if Penn went down this path, and found enough issues that they decided an upgrade was not cost effective for them (not us), especially considering the limited number of these reels out there (and only a fraction of these regularly pushed to the limit). Just too many things to fix to get it right for the amount of customers with problem reels. If this is correct, it seems the folks that would be interested in a viable upgrade will be limited to the hotrodders and hardcore Penn fans (you know who you are :D). At this point, cost becomes much less of a factor.
-J
Good stuff!
This all makes sense to me.
Any ideas on the feasability/cost of producing an upgrade kit here?
John
Quote from: jurelometer on May 19, 2016, 06:23:06 PM
8. I wonder if Penn went down this path, and found enough issues that they decided an upgrade was not cost effective for them (not us),
I have seen the guys of PENN checking this thread lately, yep, peekaboo !! I have seen you guys (tunanorth and Penn users).
Im sure they are checking the thread and see if some upgrade comes up, like the ones already made on the tank 113h.
Also, Im pretty sure, the fix issue fall in what you said in your last sentense, its not cost effective for Penn, I can understand dont fix what is not broken but this since this reel has the Senator name and Baja on the same plate needs to be " at par" with his sibblings Senator reels and last years with no mechanical problems.
The Baja Special model was replaced with the US113N. Do the US113N, US113 and US113W all have the same design flaw as the Baja?
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on May 19, 2016, 08:17:20 PM
The Baja Special model was replaced with the US113N. Do the US113N, US113 and US113W all have the same design flaw as the Baja?
-steve
its exactly the same reel with color and name changed, Baja name on the side plates was apparently not a marketing success as well as the black color scheme that resembled an old school reel.
if you have a US senator reel, you might want to check what Tom (cortez convertion) comes up with.
Quote from: oc1 on May 19, 2016, 08:17:20 PM
The Baja Special model was replaced with the US113N. Do the US113N, US113 and US113W all have the same design flaw as the Baja?
-steve
Yes, same bridge and dogs. I think they went to a brass ratchet.
As for cost, probably around $75.00. Which sucks considering we shell out ,what, $300 buck for an American made reel?
We are going to have to do a swap on the bridges, those are $24.00 each. Kind of a core charge thing.
You send me your bridge and I'll rework it and send it back in the kit. Probably won't be your original bridge, but you get the picture.
Tom, how about peening the dog posts instead of using screws? It has worked for them for many years.
But I'm sure whatever you come up with will be an improvement.
I have followed this a bit and kind of understand whats being discussed here, I think. If the issue is in the dogs and ratchet and from what has been said in this thread like "I still think the dog post splay is from the dogs breaking down, the reel losing anti reverse and pulling the dogs thru the gap. With the dogs so poorly aligned, it wedges, and at that moment pushes the posts away" is there a need for a new bridge and dog posts? As I see it, and I may be way off base here, if the alignment of the ratchet by either a new designed ratchet, or a sleeve with a ratchet built in, machined dogs out of a stronger metal other than what has been said to be a cast material and maybe some new dog springs would this not correct the issues some are having without making/adding a new bridge and or replacing dog posts?
Like stated before, maybe the "testing" should start with the new ratchet, either fixed or a stand alone on the sleeve, non-cast dogs and maybe the stronger springs before a new bridge is even looked at?
Quote from: Alto Mare on May 20, 2016, 01:01:49 AM
Tom, how about peening the dog posts instead of using screws? It has worked for them for many years.
But I'm sure whatever you come up with will be an improvement.
My honest answer Sal: I don't know how!
I don't have any of the equipment necessary to peen the way the old school Penns are peened. Not this new age BS with a little dimple, but the serious deformation of metal.
A press fit and a screw on the backside should keep.I added a top cap to the dog post to keep the dogs square. If the post were permanently peened, the dogs could never be replaced.
Again, I don't think the post splay is from drag pressure. I think it's when those cast dogs degrade to the point they are pulled past tangent with the ratchet and act as a wedge. With new dogs, this shouldn't be a problem.
Time will tell.
I'm driving down to LA to visit my folks, so I won't be around much till Monday.
for what its worth I changed the anti-reverse on both my baja-specials by carefully filing one of the dogs,
so that they both engage at the same time.
They have been used like this for about 7 years ,one on 60lb mono and the other 100lb braid.
I use about 25lb if drag....measured on a full spool with spring balance...for yellowtail etc.
Sometimes you have to pull for a break with a snagged jig direct against the AR.
They have been faultless with no sign of bent posts last time I serviced them.
I assume that the force against my AR posts is half that of a stock Baja, which is why I did it.
Yes there is a little more handle back play but I don't notice it.
I don't know why Penn went for the tall posts and big gap under the AR, as jurelometer points out
the side strain is huge.
Quote from: Cortez_Conversions on May 19, 2016, 03:55:26 PM
You know, the more I think about it, I'm leaning towards a one piece gear sleeve.
There isn't much meat on the ledge where the handle sits. I had to file the deformed material off before I could get the drag stack and bearings off.
It's gonna cost you guys more, but you will only have to replace it once!
I think the kit will consist of the following:
Hardened stainless steel gear sleeve.
Hardened stainless steel dog set with springs.
Modified Bridge. I want to ream the dog post holes true before pressing in the new posts.
Stainless screws and washers for the dog posts.
Thoughts?
Regarding the one piece gear sleeve. This gets rid of an area for potential slop from use over time. Also as you state there is not much support there for the ratchet. Tom, everything you mention is a major improvement & exactly what was on my dream list for improving this reel !!!!!!!!!! Threading the studs/stainless screws & washers....CANT WAIT...I NEEDED THIS A YEAR AGO.
These improvements should kill any & all issues I've witnessed when fishing this reel with 25 lbs. & slightly more drag. The strength & durability with these improvements I believe will be there.
Over all I'm EXTREMELY excited about this. Why, because I see the Vanguard/Benchmark heavy, Big Cat river reel in the polishing up stage... GETERDONE ! ...Jeff
Quote from: richard on May 20, 2016, 12:08:46 PM
for what its worth I changed the anti-reverse on both my baja-specials by carefully filing one of the dogs,
so that they both engage at the same time.
They have been used like this for about 7 years ,one on 60lb mono and the other 100lb braid.
I use about 25lb if drag....measured on a full spool with spring balance...for yellowtail etc.
Richard, I find this interesting. Can I ask how many times a year do you usually get out to fish ? Also what's the size range of the fish you catch?
I would also like to say as already brought up....the strength with these improvements will of course cause a failure point elsewhere at some point if pushed.
My thoughts on the goal here has been, that this reel have the capacity to be fished within the specs as stated by Penn with "Durable Longevity" especially at the higher end of this reels drag specs.
Well see, however I think what Tom is doing will achieve this nicely....Jeff
Rivverrat...
Since 2002 I have been fishing about 400 to 500 hours each winter in Cabo.
The baja specials are used with 20 /25 lb drag for Yellowtail ,Yellowfin and casting to Snapper in the rocks.All pulled drag.
Also for striped Marlin as a drop back outfit....with about 15lb of drag.
I did not like the look of the "alternating"AR system ( something has to bend before the back up dog comes into play?)
so I filed one of the dogs down to get a true double AR.
This has worked well on both reels. No sign of wear on the AR dogs, and the file marks on the dogs seem to have "work hardened".
The posts are dead straight, even after a few "sealion test"
To be fair to the baja special I expect them to pull the same or more drag as the international 30,s and Senator 50,s I use for trolling.
With the 7 surface drag,supported pinion and stainless gearing this reel actually "does what it says on the tin!".
Casting is as good as it gets and no bearing side load with a star drag.
Good luck with and mods Guys,this reel is worth it. ;D
Quote from: richard on May 23, 2016, 02:08:43 PM
Rivverrat...
Since 2002 I have been fishing about 400 to 500 hours each winter in Cabo.
The baja specials are used with 20 /25 lb drag for Yellowtail ,Yellowfin and casting to Snapper in the rocks.All pulled drag.
Also for striped Marlin as a drop back outfit....with about 15lb of drag.
I did not like the look of the "alternating"AR system ( something has to bend before the back up dog comes into play?)
so I filed one of the dogs down to get a true double AR.
This has worked well on both reels. No sign of wear on the AR dogs, and the file marks on the dogs seem to have "work hardened".
The posts are dead straight, even after a few "sealion test"
To be fair to the baja special I expect them to pull the same or more drag as the international 30,s and Senator 50,s I use for trolling.
With the 7 surface drag,supported pinion and stainless gearing this reel actually "does what it says on the tin!".
Casting is as good as it gets and no bearing side load with a star drag.
Good luck with and mods Guys,this reel is worth it. ;D
This sound like true Baja test.
Congrats on the idea of double engaged dogs
Richard,
Thanks for the tip on filing the dogs so they engage simultaneously. I found that my post were tweaked but not as much as some on here. This will hold me over until the fix is worked out.
Mike
Richard, thank you so much for getting back with your reply. Reports like yours are of a great benefit here with what is being attempted....Jeff
steelfish..PacRat...Rivverrat...
My reels are the "second generation" with the extra bearing but plastic star (replaced)
There is very little in and out play in the handle which helps the ratchet system stay in line ,with max surface area on dogs.
I wish they were like "normal" PENNS with very little gap between undergear and bridge to keep AR dogs straight.
I think the thicker AR dogs..as suggested..would do the job best ,as they would be less likely to bend the posts.
If my posts ever look like bending, I might be tempted to make up a sort of kidney shaped washer with a hole at each end to slip over
the AR studs with a press fit.(or that metal glue stuff)
It could be about 1mm thick and would add much needed support to the posts as well as lifting the "standard" dogs in line with the ratchet.
Not the real answer,but a simple cheap retro fit part you could slip in during a service.What do you guys think?
Richard, your bringing some great information to the table. I wanted to clarify... when setting your drag at 25 lbs. are you measuring it with scales ? Wanted to be sure about this...Jeff
Quote from: richard on May 24, 2016, 12:04:57 PM
steelfish..PacRat...Rivverrat...
My reels are the "second generation" with the extra bearing but plastic star (replaced)
There is very little in and out play in the handle which helps the ratchet system stay in line ,with max surface area on dogs.
I wish they were like "normal" PENNS with very little gap between undergear and bridge to keep AR dogs straight.
I think the thicker AR dogs..as suggested..would do the job best ,as they would be less likely to bend the posts.
If my posts ever look like bending, I might be tempted to make up a sort of kidney shaped washer with a whole at each end to slip over
the AR studs with a press fit.(or that metal glue stuff)
It could be about 1mm thick and would add much needed support to the posts as well as lifting the "standard" dogs in line with the ratchet.
Not the real answer,but a simple cheap retro fit part you could slip in during a service.What do you guys think?
Hi Richard,
The posts are under quite a bit of force (435 lbs by my calculation, but still being debated). It seems unlikely that any solution involving glue is going to add much strength. Once the dog post holes have any serious deformation, it is probably too late as well. Anything that helps hold the dog flat is a probably a good idea.
The question is how much upgrading is the right amount? A more robust solution may be overkill, but it will get the job done with less testing and design iterations. Plus many of the folks here would probably prefer an extra strong upgrade, even if a lesser upgrade might usually get the job done. We are lucky that there are some very talented machinists here like Tom willing to take this past discussion to design and make actual upgrades.
Regarding your dog modification:
The fact that at least one reel has avoided the problem so far by sharing the dog load is a good sign, and provides more useful data. No matter how accurate the filing, trying to equally distribute the load on the dogs is impossible. One will always contact before the other and will have to create some deformation somewhere before the second will start sharing load. The softer dogs might actually be a benefit here, sort of wearing into load share. I would wager that you are probably getting more of a 70/30 as opposed to a 50/50 split. Also, if the wearing in to get dog load sharing is due to some(currently not visible) post hole deformation, you may just be buying time. Still not a bad thing. Perhaps your modification could be an option for folks to consider trying if they don't want to go the full upgrade route? It would be nice to get a larger sample size before getting too confident.
Thanks again to you, Riverrrat and all the others posting their observations and experiences!
QuoteThe posts are under quite a bit of force (435 lbs by my calculation, but still being debated).....
Sorry for delay; been very busy. Working night shifts, which as is known to some can turn a man's brain to mush.
Nope, not being debated anymore. You were right all along. I was having trouble agreeing with myself over that, and got a little curious as to why. So, I pulled out the gear hobber and built this little gizmo here, in a scale of 1:1. It has a spool disc with a diameter of precisely 3", a ratchet wheel of precisely 0.8" and 65:15 gears thereinbetween, giving a ratio of 4.3:1 and two scales that compare the forces acting upon them.
Which made it abundantly clear how that works in the real-life scenario in the reel. If viewed as a coupled pair of compound gears, it becomes perfectly obvious, since gears are really just round levers. Compound gears are calculated thusly: The inherent ratio of one, times the inherent ratio of the other, equals total ratio. Like in this masterfully composed colorful little diagram.
(values are approximate. Jurelometer got a final ratio of the aforementioned 435 lbs / 27 = roughly 16:1. This one here says 15:1. So what; close enough. By extrapolation this is similar to what I got in the experimental device. Obviously I didn't pull 435 lbs on a 50 lb scale, but the relationship appeared to be similar)
(somewhat interestingly though, I did take the opportunity to mess around some more, and noted that had the ratchet been the same size as the main gear, the force upon it would only have been about 162 lbs. And had it been a smaller baitcasting reel with a one-inch spool, only about 125 lbs.)
So, good thinking by Jurelometer, and brain fart by me.
We now return you to the regularly scheduled thread...
.
All good stuff. I find this thread to be one of the more interesting on this site. I don't care to do calculations, etc. but appreciate the curious that just have to try.
I don't have a Baja but am keeping my eyes open, because when Tom gets done I'll be upgrading it, lol.
Rivverrat...I keep a spring balance on the boat for outrigger clips and drags. I usually measure straight off
the spool having "warmed the drag up" by cranking the handle fast for half a minute on a light drag first.
I find that a bent rod with ceramic or stainless rings will add around 10% to the figure, whilst good rollers
add little or nothing.
I used to fish Tiburon 113,s with a max of 15lb drag and even with extra finger pressure on the spool the yellowtail and snapper would get
to the rocks. Set the Baja on 25lb and drive away with the rod pulled down flat....job done!
We have an angry fish on one end, a guy in a boat on the other, and in between a couple of dogs with the surface area of a matchstick.
What could possibly go wrong.... ;D
Its easier to talk about 25lb of drag than to hold on to a fish pulling that figure, for any fight over a few minutes I have to use the gimbal and clip
up to the reel as well.
Hi Jurelometer.
Yup my solution I very much an easy first fix for anyone who has not bent their posts yet!
I totally agree that there are much better solutions out there, and I would like to see thicker dogs up against
thicker teeth. With no play or gaps to get the forces out of line.
I had no idea that the forces concerned were so high!!
I hope I,ve got nearer to a 50/50 split with the dogs, but either way they are having an easier time by helping one another!!
I was very careful to file the dog a little at a time ,after marking the excess with a felt tip pen.
With the main gear removed you can twist the shaft and watch the dogs working. I made sure that I held the shaft dead upright
rather than favour one dog over another. I the end, one stroke of a fine file was enough to get both dogs engaging at exactly the same time.
Thank you for putting things in a mathematical perspective sir.
Not sure if I should start another thread but I would really appreciate your comments on:
COULD THE AR GEAR BE MADE ANY LARGER IN DIA.
This would add surface area to an undergear HT 100 for a bit more drag.
There would be more/slightly larger gear teeth for the AR dogs to engage.
The forces between dog and teeth would be less than with a smaller dia AR gear.
which means less pressure on the posts?
What is the downside?
Richard, nice idea on a bigger ratchet, more bigger teeth means better contact and less stress on the dogs.
really nice to see more guys participate on this issue.
Quote from: Robert Janssen on May 24, 2016, 09:34:44 PMQuoteThe posts are under quite a bit of force (435 lbs by my calculation, but still being debated).....
Sorry for delay; been very busy. Working night shifts, which as is known to some can turn a man's brain to mush.
Nope, not being debated anymore. You were right all along. I was having trouble agreeing with myself over that, and got a little curious as to why. So, I pulled out the gear hobber and built this little gizmo here, in a scale of 1:1. It has a spool disc with a diameter of precisely 3", a ratchet wheel of precisely 0.8" and 65:15 gears thereinbetween, giving a ratio of 4.3:1 and two scales that compare the forces acting upon them.
Which made it abundantly clear how that works in the real-life scenario in the reel. If viewed as a coupled pair of compound gears, it becomes perfectly obvious, since gears are really just round levers. Compound gears are calculated thusly: The inherent ratio of one, times the inherent ratio of the other, equals total ratio. Like in this masterfully composed colorful little diagram.
(values are approximate. Jurelometer got a final ratio of the aforementioned 435 lbs / 27 = roughly 16:1. This one here says 15:1. So what; close enough. By extrapolation this is similar to what I got in the experimental device. Obviously I didn't pull 435 lbs on a 50 lb scale, but the relationship appeared to be similar)
(somewhat interestingly though, I did take the opportunity to mess around some more, and noted that had the ratchet been the same size as the main gear, the force upon it would only have been about 162 lbs. And had it been a smaller baitcasting reel with a one-inch spool, only about 125 lbs.)
[snip]
.
So after working night shifts, you just threw together a complete mechanical model, including hobbing some gears? That is (expletive deleted) IMPRESSIVE! Thanks again for helping educate all of us.
I like your description of "final ratio". That seems to be the best way to describe it. And I think it makes it clear that there is something of an upper limit on star drag reel design. A combination of large spool diameter, high gear ratio, and high drag settings, ends up creating a lot of force on the drag/anti-reverse system. The system has to be well designed to avoid failure. When designing from scratch, making the ratchet as large as possible is clearly advisable- it just has to stay under the main gear. A ratchet that is twice the diameter cuts the load in half.
On a side note:the force on the pinion junction can also be calculated. Simply divide the drag torque by the pinon contact radius. So for the example we have been using, if the radius of the point of contact at the pinion junction is .25 inches 40.5 /.25 =162 lbs of force on the pinion before the drag slips. Think of a car driving about 20-30 MPH with a coil of line tied to a 162 lb object. Now think about the amount of stress when that line goes taut. That is what the pinion is facing when it is trying to engage at full force...
BTW, I estimated the ratchet, pinion and full spool radius . If someone has the exact measurements we can get to a closer calculation. This would still be a rough estimate, as the parts are not perfectly aligned, friction in the gears, etc. Thanks to Mr, Janssen, we have some evidence that we are in the right ballpark.
Quote from: richard on May 25, 2016, 01:20:09 PM
Not sure if I should start another thread but I would really appreciate your comments on:
COULD THE AR GEAR BE MADE ANY LARGER IN DIA.
This would add surface area to an undergear HT 100 for a bit more drag.
There would be more/slightly larger gear teeth for the AR dogs to engage.
The forces between dog and teeth would be less than with a smaller dia AR gear.
which means less pressure on the posts?
What is the downside?
Yup, as a couple of us have noted, the most important advantage of a larger ratchet is increasing the leverage at the dog ( thereby decreasing the force). Twice as big a ratchet means half the force on the dog.
there are some other important design considerations from what I have read about dog/ratchet systems. the dog post has to be positioned correctly, so that the the force from the ratchet tooth is at a 90 degree angle from the radius (I.e. tangent to the the circle defined by the contact point). If the angle is off, it has the same effect as making the ratchet smaller. Not to mention that this layout ends up creating a risk of dog binding, wear, designing curved dogs that are not as strong, etc.
So for upgrading this reel, a larger ratchet means relocating the dog posts - maybe doable if any upgrade requires some drilling /reaming on the bridge anyways, but more risk of unforeseen complications (maybe something in the design requires a smaller ratchet- or maybe the post gets moved too close to the side of the bridge?
Regarding the under-gear washer, there has been quite a bit of debate on this topic. I am in the camp that this is primarily a thrust washer, whose job is to allow the main gear and ratchet to stay aligned and smoothly move independently. A drag washer is soft, compressible, and easily torn, not an ideal thrust washer. The big advantage over other washer materials is heat tolerance. Delrin/Acetal makes a better thrust washer, can run indefinitely 180F. You don't want to run it over about 250F, or its start to get squishy. Fiber reinforced PTFE (AKA Rulon) is smoother, and has higher heat tolerance, but is not as tough and compression resistant as delrin. A mechanical thrust bearing ( with balls or rollers)might be the best option, but finding room for it is tough. Many folks here have been using delrin for awhile, the reports I have seen are that it's makes for a smoother drag, and I haven't seen any reported failures. If you do a search on this topic, you can decide for yourself.
There are some other things that go into a good ratchet design, but I don't want to keep rambling. Here is an example of what I think is a pretty good ratchet design (Shimano TLD star) that has a gear shaft/ratchet assembly similar to the 113HN. Note that the ratchet is as large as possible.
And I agree with Steelfish. Getting many voices, opinions, experiences has made this a very interesting discussion!
-J
Thanks for the explanation Jurelometer....I can see your point about positioning the posts to create the best angle
for the dogs to meet the teeth....and straight dogs..
My speedmaster has a similar large ratchet gear to the one you showed....the forces must be reasonable for the dog to run on
a "graphite" shaft rather than a bridge screw.
I wonder if "small ratchet syndrome" is something you get when you try to use one of the four bridge screws as a pivot for the AR gear?
The screw is a little closer (to the gear centre) than you really want ,especially if were aiming for straight dogs at the correct angle.
So to keep the best dog angles ,whilst using a convenient pivot point for the dog , they made the ratchet gear smaller in dia than it should be in a perfect world.
Re the undergear washer ,yeah a bigger version of the present PENN washer would be fine by me..they are foolproof........
If we replaced this washer with a bearing.......would we end up with something like Avet side thrust ?
Thanks again for all the info gentlemen
Great thread. I am enjoying the reading, learning, and member participation here.
I think these force calculations/equations could be extended by a few more variables to give estimates of the cranking 'power' advantage a given reel design has. For example, we intuitively know that ttpically, a reel with larger gears (and a lower gear ratio), spools, and a handle arm will translate to a greater mechanical advantage (force in vs. force out). But actually having a ready-made equation to plug specific variables in for a given model and getting a number out, would be greatly advantageous for comparing designs. I apologize for straying from the intended topic of this thread. This idea, may be better served in a new thread.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on May 26, 2016, 07:20:31 PM
Great thread. I am enjoying the reading, learning, and member participation here.
I think these force calculations/equations could be extended by a few more variables to give estimates of the cranking 'power' advantage a given reel design has. For example, we intuitively know that ttpically, a reel with larger gears (and a lower gear ratio), spools, and a handle arm will translate to a greater mechanical advantage (force in vs. force out). But actually having a ready-made equation to plug specific variables in for a given model and getting a number out, would be greatly advantageous for comparing designs. I apologize for straying from the intended topic of this thread. This idea, may be better served in a new thread.
Good idea!
I think the formula is the same as the force on the dog formula described in this thread. Just replace the ratchet radius with the handle length from center of gear shaft to center of knob.
If you replace max drag with 1, then you will have a ratio for how much force on the knob to get 1 lb of cranking force on the reel.
There is a formula on a document that you can download. It is .doc and .xls format, so if you have a computer with MS Office or LibreOffice(Free!), you can just download and plug in the numbers. As mentioned before in the thread, you an find it here:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14241.0 (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14241.0) (also note all the ribbing I took for doing some science ;D )
Let me know if it works for you or if there are any questions.
For this reel at 27 lbs drag and a spool filled to 3 inches (assuming it could hold that much): We were at ~ 174 pound-in of torque. Divide that by handle span. Let's say 3 inch: 174/3 = 58 lbs of force, meaning the force you apply at the knob is roughly double the force pulling the line onto the reel.
Let's try a longer handle- at 5inch span: 174/5 = 34.8 lbs of force, a big difference, getting close to 1:1.
As with the dog, if the force is not perfectly aligned ( tangent) with the cranking circle, it effectively shortens the crank length. This is where the ergonomic handles come in to play. You probably get another 5-10% more cranking efficiency over the little plastic torpedo knobs by virtue of being able to apply the power correctly. Not to mention the ability to apply more power with a larger grip.
This also illustrates the value of a two speed when drags get up above 20 lbs. if you cut the gear ratio in half, it doubles your cranking force.
And I guess we (Ok, mostly me :)) are getting off topic here. It would be nice if we has a sub-forum for reel science/design/engineering to collect these type of discussions(hint, hint...)
jurelometer, I hope you keep this up. Your math showing the forces that reels can experience very clearly shows why these under 30 oz. 20 something oz. reels must be designed right if they are expected to have any reasonable working lifespan. It gives me a much better appreciation of say a 12 or 16 VSX. While also solidifying my need for one or two...errr three of them....Jeff
Tom, you got a PM
btw, any update on this problem?
Quote from: steelfish on June 18, 2016, 12:59:57 AM
Tom, you got a PM
btw, any update on this problem?
I did get you PM alex.
I have made some improvements, but nothing really news worthy yet.
Tom
Any improvements that refine this wonderful reels anti reverse are news worthy....Jeff
I'll be Baja bound in a while, and just wanted to update this project.
Here's the original problem Alex presented us:
(http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag109/Cortez_Conversions/P1050687%20stock_zpso95rpy2u.jpg)
Here's my effort:
Hardened Stainless dogs, machined, not cast, square to the bridge and ratchet. I moved the springs to the top to allow this.
The dog posts are screwed in to allow for dis-assembly/maintanece. Time will tell if this design holds up. I would rather have hard peened posts with a cir-clip to hold the dogs and springs,
but I don't have that type of tooling.
(http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag109/Cortez_Conversions/IMG_0630_zpsac8hbmxc.jpg)
One piece hardened Stainless gear sleeve.
(http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag109/Cortez_Conversions/IMG_0631_zpsek8arac2.jpg)
(http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag109/Cortez_Conversions/IMG_0632_zps1sk1xlpj.jpg)
Added a little to the top of the sleeve for the nut to bite.
(http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag109/Cortez_Conversions/IMG_0633_zpsuggoaijv.jpg)
Taking this down with me to test, then I'll bring it back and do some tweaks.
I am going to add a small shim under the dog to get it off the bridge about .01" so it is the same height as the ratchet.
Hopefully the folks over at Penn will take a look.
I just simple love what you did, dogs and ratchet-sleeve unit, both looks like a winner, and posts technique looks strong enough.
hopefully you catch a big fish that put some hard test to this upgrade parts
This is looking fantastic. The stainless sleeve with reverse ratchet is what I'm really liking the most.
Ok Guys, it's testing time!
Steelfish, Rivverrat, can you both PM me your addresses again. Since you both have reels, can I just send you a bridge assembly?
I have two complete reels that I am willing to send as loaners if anyone can put them to use in the near future.
Tom
Tom does it again!
These will do the job -- and then some...
Thanks, Tom...
Best,
Fred
Quote from: Cortez_Conversions on September 04, 2016, 01:53:33 AM
Ok Guys, it's testing time!
Steelfish, Rivverrat, can you both PM me your addresses again. Since you both have reels, can I just send you a bridge assembly?
Cool compadre, I'm going fishing this sept 17th , right on time
Bridge assembly is enough
PM on your way
Great work Tom! 8)
Nice work Tom, I really like the dog set up - it will be interesting to see how the threaded posts stand up to a good work-out.
Mike
Looks like a nice solution, Tom! Curious to see the results, but it seems like you address the issues in a simple but smart way.
I like the extra threading for the nut to bite a bit more.
Nice work bud,
Dom
The design changed a little from the last set of pics.
When I get some time I'll post the last revision that is going out to be tested.
Great job. The Baja and US Senator still get used on my boat.
It's hard for me to say how much I've been desiring an upgrade for this reel.
A star drag reel this size will never be perfect for all fishing.
However there are zero star drag reels presently made in the US at this price, that have the casting ability with smooth, high drag out put that this one has. This is in my mind a benchmark reel.
Meaning based on my prior stated criteria there are none presently better.
However if you fish this reel every day @ 20 lbs. or higher drag & throw the lever foreword on big, running fish you will have issue.
With Tom's upgrades, I am very hopeful this will deal with the prominent issue of this reel, a weak anti-reverse, dogs that are to soft & their associated pins coming lose from the bridge when fished at 20 lbs. of drag or higher.
I can only hope Penn is still watching & listening....Jeff
Ditto what Jeff said pretty much. I have a Baja that is perfectly fine. But if Tom makes it, it's going in my reel. Literally the finest reel on the planet for me after that.
I owned 2 Baja's that I bought when they were closing them out for $99.00 each and I wondered why so cheap is something wrong with them, to make a long story short I fished the reels a lot and caught Wahoo, Tuna, and never had a problem, then we moved to Panama from FLorida and lived there for 6 years and they were my go to reels again I could do any thing with them, troll, cast, fish the bottom and the fish in Panama are pretty big. When we move back to CA I realized they were wrong for here and I needed some really trick casting reels, so I sold them but giving the Devil his due I never had a problem with the 2 reels now sold.
Joel8080
Racanfish & Joel, you both would be helping if you could tell us a little more. Can you say with certainty your drag setting while using these reels. Also how often were they fished ? Thanks, Jeff
I fished 1 time a week as I had my Boat in Fla & Panama, as to the drag setting I used the old and proven pull the line trick and I never had a problem also most if not all of my fishing was trolling, When your going at 10-12 knots trolling 25% the battle is over at the strike. I know now it was not the right way to set the drag but I would guess 50% of the fishermen if not higher set there drag that way.
Joel8080
Thanks, Joel. Your reply is much appreciated....Jeff
Tom, thanks for sending the bridge over, please let me know how long I could hold on to it.
I believe you did it, the Baja shouldn't suffer anymore issues with the dogs.
I know you've posted some pics already, but my pics might be better :)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/pescatore1014/20160919_194208.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/pescatore1014/20160919_194208.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/pescatore1014/20160919_194641.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/pescatore1014/20160919_194641.jpg.html)
(http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g431/pescatore1/pescatore1014/20160919_194138.jpg) (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/pescatore1/media/pescatore1014/20160919_194138.jpg.html)
Excellent job Tom!
Sal
Tom, just received the bridge today. Nice touch on extending the threads on the sleeve so the handle nut has more threads to grab, fitting flush.
I'm not ready to yet to go in any detail. I will just say the anti reverse came through fine regarding preliminary testing this evening. The few Baja / US113 I've had prior did not do well. All except one failing at what I did this evening.
This Thursday It's off to the river with it. To hopefully hook a true river monster that I've seen twice in the same area while scouting recently.
This upgrade is already in my mind showing promise....Jeff
Tom, if you are going to market these, I could use two.
Charlie
got mine, thanks Tom, its really a step forward from the stock assembly, all parts feel more sturdy and rigid, you surely just scored another touchdown compadre.
I really love how the dogs are now NOT floating on the posts like before
cant wait to test it.
Quote from: borchcl on September 20, 2016, 02:17:58 AM
Tom, if you are going to market these, I could use two.
Charlie
As soon as the feedback confirms the design, these will be available.
I will get in line for two also since these are down the road a ways.
Tom, is your idea still to have a .01" shim under each dog? Or did I miss something?
Also, the springs are redesigned? If so can I order a couple of extras to stash?
There is a .01" shim under the dogs. The way you all slap the grease on things, I was worried that the dogs wound stick to the bridge if there was full contact. ;D
The springs are stock, but I had to reverse the bend on one of the legs because they now sit on top of the dogs.
I'm planning on having a stronger spring quoted if this takes off.
I will do a full write up when they are ready.
Great! Very exciting. I like the idea of a stronger spring too. I love to hear the dogs at work.
Thanks once again Tom. I feel very fortunate to be hanging in the same club with someone of your ability.
Now if my wallet can get caught up I'll be set for life with my reels. I can't tell you how good it feels to know the tools we will be fishing with are almost indestructible.
You have me covered from Squidder, to Jigmaster, to Daiwa 600/900, to 113's, to Baja Special. Amazing.
Will the dogs and posts be available separately as a 'DIY' kit for other reels? Or are the posts too tall to use with a 98-320 sleeve for example?
Thanks
Mike
Mike,
As far as I've looked this is specific to the 113HN Baja Special and the new US113,US113N, and US113W reels.
Tom
Unable to go any where today & was bored silly.
Over 20 lbs. of drag, Clicker on, in free spool, 30 lbs. of weight dropped from over 20', lever thrown forward.....REPEATEDLY.
I have zero desire to test Tom's work to point of failure. I only wish to see if it works well within the specks Penn has set already
First person that says....."That Ain't no fish" ....gets 49 lashes with an Ugly Stick Fly rod & one smack with a Seeker Rail rod.
I think I have as good an idea as any regarding where this reel fails. Yes it will take time wetting a line to fully prove this out. Testing like this does however show if something new has enough merit to go forward.
For what it's worth everything came out fine. Absolutely no movement of the post in the bridge.
Tomorrow off to the park for a taller tree. Hope to have some video. Trip to the river put off until this weekend....Jeff
Attaboy! Giver' 'ell Jeff. Lol.
Actually I'm glad to see you trying unusual methods like that. It shows that a great reel is going to be even better.
Everyone needs a Baja Cortez Kit now.
I just noticed you have the new 113hn or whatever #. Mine is an oldy.
Quote from: Rancanfish on September 22, 2016, 01:39:44 AM
I just noticed you have the new 113hn or whatever #. Mine is an oldy.
They are the same. Parts from both can intermingle. If you have the plastic star for your drag you might want to upgrade that. They've been known to break....Jeff
Seems to me that most of the bridge components, and actually other pieces of this reel, are missing a little Yamaha Marine grease. Is it just me, am I missing something, or is this the way you would lube these parts.
I noticed this lack of lubricant from the first picture on the first page.
Be interesting to hear your thoughts.....
josa1
Quote from: josa1 on September 22, 2016, 03:59:28 AM
Seems to me that most of the bridge components, and actually other pieces of this reel, are missing a little Yamaha Marine grease. Is it just me, am I missing something, or is this the way you would lube these parts.
I noticed this lack of lubricant from the first picture on the first page.
Be interesting to hear your thoughts.....
josa1
just a guess... fresh water = less grease?
steve
Quote from: josa1 on September 22, 2016, 03:59:28 AM
Seems to me that most of the bridge components, and actually other pieces of this reel, are missing a little Yamaha Marine grease. Is it just me, am I missing something, or is this the way you would lube these parts.
I noticed this lack of lubricant from the first picture on the first page.
Be interesting to hear your thoughts.....
josa1
Since I opened this thread I think it's on me.
1st picture from the 1st. Page its a reel that was sent to me to fix it from problems on the antireverse and to service it, that reel had years with no services according to the owner, no wonder it's dry of grease, not the recommended way to have a saltwater reel.
About the picture from the post #10 on Same first page, that's another reel already cleaned and dry from grease and oil just for taking the pictures and see more clearly the issues, both reels were delivered with plenty Yamaha grease ala AT.com way on gears, screws and internal walls and TSI 321 oil on the bearings.
Quote from: josa1 on September 22, 2016, 03:59:28 AM
Seems to me that most of the bridge components, and actually other pieces of this reel, are missing a little Yamaha Marine grease. Is it just me, am I missing something, or is this the way you would lube these parts.
I noticed this lack of lubricant from the first picture on the first page.
Be interesting to hear your thoughts.....
josa1
If your speaking specifically of Tom's bridge in my pics I chose to make use of it initailly with a good coating of oil. I wanted to be sure everything was as smooth as could be. As stated prior I do fish fresh water. I will be coating every thing in grease with a light coat later. Even with fresh water I think it's the way to go for long term durability....Jeff
Thanks for the answers. I just acquired a used Baja Special and was researching to see what I should do to maintain it properly. I noted that it had no wear on the anti reverse dogs and had been lubed differently than the reels shown in this thread. Of course, there's no way of knowing how much use it had been put to.
The reel acquisition bug continues. Don't know what I needed with a Baja Special, but after reading Alan's post on it, I just wanted one to see how the spool was disconnected from the pinion and bridge when in free spool. Pretty interesting to say the least and it seems to work well.
Maybe I'll use it to fish wahoo on bait...
josa1
after thinking a bit on how to test this upgraded antireverse assembly to the max while fishing I ended up with the idea that the best way to test it is with the same person that brough me the Baja Special reel broken for the 2nd time on the antireverse assembly.
So, these parts (AR assembly) will be installed on my friends reel which as you might remember runs a sport fishing charter with two big Pangas, he's more than happy to help on the testing of these parts, as this reel is normally a loaner to the customers which half of the time are fishing for their first time we can expect on a short period of time to have these parts pushed to the limit with tons of snags at the rocks on the bottom, tons of hard jerky movements to try to get the jigs free, and hopefuly expecting lot of fishes too, not many monsters locally but hopefully some nice fishes on it, maybe fight a big black grouper, also many times trolling with it, casting heavy irons, etc.
Depending on the use of the reel I will ask the reel back to check it out on 4 more weeks, if not too many action and the reel continue to runs correctly then I will wait 4 more weeks to make it 2 complete months of action as loaner reel on this panga service, this is tremendous more work on the reel than I could ever do to it on the same period of time.
why I choose my friend instead of me? well after the reasons I already posted, he already toasted his Baja Special bridge again, which it was installed new on May 2016, or he is too hard on this reel (which its his favorite) or the bridge posts are not mean to be used 3-4 times per week on a Panga service as loaner reel, sadly the rees of his reels for suffer from antireverse problems as often as this model the rest of the panga reels are gold trinidads, few 113h, few 114h, avets, and some newells, but he is in love with the Baja Special and I dont blame him, he has high hopes on the upgraded parts since he said now the reel will be ready to get some big groupers, the big mamma grouper
the bridge that I installed on his reel new on May 2016 already have one post losen to the point that you can take it out by hand and the other post is already bent, not as bad cuz it continue to work but its only matter of time until get broken for good.
check the next pics of his reel, by the way these pics were taken yesterday, I wanted to clarify it cuz the look the same that the ones I posted on the opening post on the thread.
you can see the dig post along with the dog and spring on the table at your right side
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8080%20ss_zps3hyyzykc.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8080%20ss_zps3hyyzykc.jpg.html)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8092%20ss_zpsjlyhpczp.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8092%20ss_zpsjlyhpczp.jpg.html)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8100%20ss_zpsfkkd942r.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8100%20ss_zpsfkkd942r.jpg.html)
Two dogs are already with marks as expected by the way the dog posts are, but still on working condition
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8089%20ss_zpsmwzhltrn.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8089%20ss_zpsmwzhltrn.jpg.html)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8087%20ss_zpskyeulzrv.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8087%20ss_zpskyeulzrv.jpg.html)
I put the dog post and hit it with a wrench just to take the next pictures, now some comparative pictures just for referece, and for the rest of the guys on the site to check the awesome machinery job that Tom does.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8105%20ss_zpsknqonne1.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8105%20ss_zpsknqonne1.jpg.html)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8110%20ss_zpsgqxxoc1h.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8110%20ss_zpsgqxxoc1h.jpg.html)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8124%20ss_zpsy2cfly78.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8124%20ss_zpsy2cfly78.jpg.html)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/3592_03_11_17_3_54_00_223681622.jpeg)
its a beauty
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/3592_03_11_17_3_53_50_22366838.jpeg)
check it everything and fits like a glove, perfection
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8146%20ss_zpsfvulgbcd.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8146%20ss_zpsfvulgbcd.jpg.html)
and bit of grease to install the new parts and get the reel ready to fish
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8160%20ss_zpsg4ewc6hz.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8160%20ss_zpsg4ewc6hz.jpg.html)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8161%20ss_zps6ist5l3q.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8161%20ss_zps6ist5l3q.jpg.html)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8169%20ss_zpssji7chv2.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8169%20ss_zpssji7chv2.jpg.html)
ready to some heavy action
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8177%20ss_zpsooppdwdi.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/carrretes/Penn%20Baja%20Special/IMAG8177%20ss_zpsooppdwdi.jpg.html)
I will update this thread as soon as I have something new on this or if by chance by friends detect something wrong on the reel, if the reel continue to slay some fish with no problems I will update in few weeks, maybe at the end of october and and then again at the end of the november.
sorry for the quality of the pics, my good camera died few weeks ago and had to take the pics with my cell phone.
Thanks for the comparison shots. I can't wait until Tom starts production. There is no way his parts are ever going to break down on me.
Your pics are just fine. Sounds like you put Tom's work in great hands. Iv'e been doing some off the water testing. So far Tom's work has stood up to all of it. I'm really starting to think we have the lock work here that might be able play well in the higher drag range that the Baja / US113 can produce....Jeff
Wow!! A major upgrade...problem not only fixed...but eliminated!
Mo, not in any way wishing to take anything away from what is most obviously some fantastic & very gracious work done by Tom for those of us that love this reel. However while I've never met Tom face to face I can say that I have gleaned enough about him from his post here that I am pretty sure he wants this right before he makes more.
I also have spent a large portion of my life frustrated with gear I used to fish my favorite river. Few reels doing what they claimed & none until recently exceeding my expectations. It was my coming here to this sight where things changed for the better. With the help of Alan, John T. & reading the posts of many others along with tests of my own I learned & relearned a lot in a short period. Finally arriving at a sound idea of what reels work best with in my criteria.
When Tom asked me if I wished to fish his work I was floored. I relish this sort of thing. Again not wishing to take anything away, I will just say that when the 3 or more of us are done fishing, testing & the reply comes back positive I believe then a person can be very certain this anti reverse done by Tom will take most anything the stock drag can dish out.....Not quite there yet I dont think....Jeff
Be sure to click image in the upper right hand corner
https://goo.gl/photos/qhxVFw9L9NhBuRVH8
Looks perfect to me. I know I'll need a couple of them just for the reels we fish with.
I haven't had any come in the shop that were having problems with the stock arrangement but one of my reels has the slightly bend dog post.
Keith
Quote from: Rivverrat on September 29, 2016, 11:06:56 PM
Be sure to click image in the upper right hand corner
https://goo.gl/photos/qhxVFw9L9NhBuRVH8
where is the rest of the video?
so, you let the 75# weight fell down and stop it with the 25# drag on the reel or how it was your test?
The weight was dropped with clicker on then the lever thrown forward. If you listen closely you can hear the clicker stop after the lever is thrown forward. meaning the force is being held by the anti reverse for a moment. I believe there would be no difference at this drag setting, with the results regardless of weight used in this type of test with this reel.
Again while this is not a fish this type of thing can I believe show with decent certainty that we are at a better place than before. Guys I'm having trouble posting video. Just got word, got to pack up to leave. Not Good
I cant do this right now. I'm having no luck posting any more video. Could use some help....Jeff
There is not a thing in this lifetime that cannot break down when subjected to enough stress.
A reasonable expectation of performance improvement is all we can hope for. I would be willing to go with the improved version now. That is not to say Tom won't make tweaks to his product, but am I really ever going to stop a freight train 100% of the time? And still be able to afford it?
Fewer, stronger parts on a proven reel? Gimme two please. 8)
Quote from: Rivverrat on September 29, 2016, 11:06:56 PM
Be sure to click image in the upper right hand corner
https://goo.gl/photos/qhxVFw9L9NhBuRVH8
That looks like a good punishment to me, but if it worked for you, great. These reels and also the penn 113H's are not easy to put into gear when under stress, unless you help them a little with your thumb by holding the spool at the same time and also try to back it up a hair.
There isn't anything wrong with it, it's just the way it is. There have been some discussions on this, my opinion is that the cause is from having helical cut gears. If the gears were cut straight, I believe the gears would engage with less effort.
With that said, I prefer helical cut gears.
Sorry for pulling away from the custom bridge, but this is worth mentioning, since you've dropped 75lbs and shifted it into gear at the same time.
Quote from: Rancanfish on September 30, 2016, 02:37:30 AM
There is not a thing in this lifetime that cannot break down when subjected to enough stress.
A reasonable expectation of performance improvement is all we can hope for. I would be willing to go with the improved version now. That is not to say Tom won't make tweaks to his product, but am I really ever going to stop a freight train 100% of the time? And still be able to afford it?
Fewer, stronger parts on a proven reel? Gimme two please. 8)
Well said! I agree!
Sal, appreciate you passing your blessing on my test.
I will get some more video up as soon as I sort out what I'm doing wrong. Just to be clear.....I was allowing the weight to gain speed prior to throwing the lever forward. Bit of a difference than doing both simultaneously ....Jeff
Quote from: Rivverrat on September 30, 2016, 12:15:47 AM
The weight was dropped with clicker on then the lever thrown forward. If you listen closely you can hear the clicker stop after the lever is thrown forward. meaning the force is being held by the anti reverse for a moment. I believe there would be no difference at this drag setting, with the results regardless of weight used in this type of test with this reel.
Again while this is not a fish this type of thing can I believe show with decent certainty that we are at a better place than before. Guys I'm having trouble posting video. Just got word, got to pack up to leave. Not Good
I cant do this right now. I'm having no luck posting any more video. Could use some help....Jeff
Hey Jeff,
This is a great test! Probably the most stressful test for a star drag, and something that happens under real usage. It would be interesting to see what happens if this was done a couple hundred times, but that would be pretty time consuming. As a note, since the spool is not full, this test equates to a lighter drag testing at the same setting with a full spool (maybe 20 lbs instead of 25?)
It would not be surprising if the limiting factor is now another component. How is the pinion to spool junction holding up?
BTW- not trying to throw any shade on Tom's great upgrade, just sharing some ideas on how to quantify it.
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on September 30, 2016, 07:13:33 PM
Hey Jeff,
This is a great test! Probably the most stressful test for a star drag, and something that happens under real usage. It would be interesting to see what happens if this was done a couple hundred times, but that would be pretty time consuming. As a note, since the spool is not full, this test equates to a lighter drag testing at the same setting with a full spool (maybe 20 lbs instead of 25?)
It would not be surprising if the limiting factor is now another component. How is the pinion to spool junction holding up?
BTW- not trying to throw any shade on Tom's great upgrade, just sharing some ideas on how to quantify it.
-J
Based on prior discussion with you I thought you might like that. Good catch on noticing the spool wasn't topped off. I fished the reel this way in an attempt to lower the stress on the internals. Knowing what you state about a reel with drag set with half spool to be true, I was at first going to fill the spool. However after some thought & my desire to not just go out & destroy Tom's work. But to take it slow & see if any areas of stress show along the way with a longer process. Such as what you bring up being the pinion spool area.
Now that I have established we are at a better place I will do all the next testing with spool filled. Any one can take something mechanical & find out very quickly what breaks it. I feel that if I at any point blow up Tom's work I have failed him & my intentions here. That being to find out if he has in fact made something better. I believe I have proved to myself beyond just looking at his great work, that in fact he has....Jeff
We do a lot of deep dropping with heavy weighs up to 5lbs, most commonly 3lbs. It's not just a Penn thing having to rock the spool back. We have to do it on all reels when there under load and much less than 5lbs.
Quote from: Rivverrat on September 30, 2016, 05:04:09 PM
Sal, appreciate you passing your blessing on my test.
I will get some more video up as soon as I sort out what I'm doing wrong. Just to be clear.....I was allowing the weight to gain speed prior to throwing the lever forward. Bit of a difference than doing both simultaneously ....Jeff
I just saw your new videos (from google +)
and looks like a really heavy punishment to the reel, Tom will have test from Labs (yours) and real world.
if this result as a winner I will need at least two more.
see if this works.
https://goo.gl/photos/qhxVFw9L9NhBuRVH8
I see what you're doing now Jeff, you have a valid test.
Since other components are in question, how about setting that reel to 25lbs with a scale.
Do exactly the same process as you did with your test, I love it! but this time keep the reel in gear from start.
Now, find out how much weight is needed for it to drop at a steady slow pace from there.
Once it has dropped, turn the handle to bring it back up halfway and hold it there for a couple of minutes with no pressure on the handle, actually you should move your hand from the handle. You will need to add a little more drag at this point, just enough to keep the weight there.
I believe this won't be as harsh on the reel, But, if you don't have a pulley on top, you will need to find out how much force it takes to get the weight back up while turning the handle, or your gears might suffer damage.
The weight should be at around 25lbs going for both up and down
Dave brings a good point, but on this one dealing with 40 yards of line, you should be good with the spool being halfway or full. The numbers do change but not enough to cause any issues.
This tests should be good for checking stress on the dogs, gears and drag washers.
Thanks for doing this Jeff, I know how much work it takes just to show 1 or 2 minutes on here.
What I've mentioned above is just a suggestion, you are doing a good job on your own, so take it from here.
Sal
Some brief feedback... First I can say for any one wishing to push their Baja / US113 to 20 lbs. & needing 25 lbs. to stop a fish short this reel will now do that repeatedly. It would not before this time.
I have repeatedly put an amount of stress on this reel that if done just once with a stock reel the anti reverse would have failed most times. We have a reel that produces a glass smooth 15 lbs. of drag & a fishable 20 lbs of drag measured straight off the reel lifting a 20 lb. weight. which of course would be a few pounds more with line strung through the guides of a rod....I've got more I wish to do. However at this point I feel I can say, "This Boat Will Float" "This Dog Will Hunt".... Based on what I've done & seen, this reel is now meeting its fantastic, claimed specs with the strength & durability that the Penn Senator line has been known for by a lot of you here....Jeff
cool Jeff,
specially coming from you that have had the Baja AR problems directly, hoping to see a river monster at the other side of your line and the Baja in the other side someday.
my the reel with the upgrade parts is still on the water, will see if I have any news to report in two weeks more.
by the way, I just got another Baja Special that I found on a local yard sale on my way to lunch, I wont tell you how much the guy was asking for the reel, I will just say that he told me it was one of those old penn senator with black side plates, he hate them too dang slow and weak, its kind of beat up but I have the tools to make it look 3x better, ooh and once on production this reel will also have those upgrades by Tom.
I haven't visited this thread for quite some time.
If Tom is involved, I guess I need to get a Baja Special Now. ;)
Great testing guys. We all do it a little different, that is why it is testing.
I prefer the dead lift. Knowing exactly what you are picking up and letting it drop slowly from a platform.
Great work to all involved here. Especially Jeff. ;)
Wow ! Just Wow!
After receiving some help from Sal, I am amazed with the results. Further testing is needed. However this reel appears at this point to be doing very well at the upper end of its drag range. Doing this with decent smoothness. If I find myself needing more drag than this reel can now produce I believe a different reel would be more appropriate. The heat generated drag fade at this high drag could become a problem dealing with fish capable of long runs. But for my fishing & for others this is not an issue.
I do wonder if Tom fully realizes what he may have accomplished here? ....Jeff
Jeff,
talk a bit more of what other test did you made with the help of Sal to be this exited
let us now more please
Alex, after talking with Sal about the drag he suggested I might try a different arrangement of Delrin washers. So far I have replaced the the one under the main gear & I think I have one beneath the single
spring / belleville washer that sits on top the drag stack. The drag is now as smooth cranked down stupid tight as it is at 15 lbs. At 25 lbs. of drag there appears to be no flexing of the side plate or any where else in this reel.
Alex I have to say, if I need more drag than this I'll look at a VSX or something else. The only reel that I'm aware of, this size, that cast as well or better, with this amount of drag or more is the Avet HX Raptor. But it cost twice as much....Jeff
Quote from: Rivverrat on October 17, 2016, 05:21:16 PM
Alex, after talking with Sal about the drag he suggested I might try a different arrangement of Delrin washers. So far I have replaced the the one under the main gear & I think I have one beneath the single
spring / belleville washer that sits on top the drag stack. ..Jeff
my man Sal, he sent me some Delrin washer few months ago for the 113h and 112h of course them came with few extra washers, I looked the way he put them on the 113h tank, so I also used the same arragment on the Baja, which its the same way you described, one under the main gear and one under the presure washer at the top of the drag stack, but on the one on top of the drag stack I really dont remember if I leave it like that or I used a thicker delrin washer instead of the benevile/presure washer that the top like this, this delrin is thicker so takes the place of the spring washer and the thin delrin washer beneath.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/carrretes/delrin%20IMAG2354_zpsnrhqzg6d.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/carrretes/delrin%20IMAG2354_zpsnrhqzg6d.jpg.html)
Alex, did you notice any improvement in the smoothness of the drag at high settings ? ....Jeff
Quote from: Rivverrat on October 17, 2016, 08:47:51 PM
Alex, did you notice any improvement in the smoothness of the drag at high settings ? ....Jeff
well, my dumbbell set is only 20lb so it was the max drag I could test on my Baja on a rod and it was really smooth at that drag mark, I never went higher since I didnt had a proper way to know how much more weight I was adding.
20# drag was for sure enough drag for me anyway so I stopped my test there
Alex, thats good to hear. I'm getting 25 lbs. of fishable drag. For me this is plenty. My thoughts are with the heat thats generated fairly quickly at this setting there are better reels for fish needing this amount of drag. That are going strip large amounts of line with each run. Ths is the same issue I find with the newer small to mid size lever drag reels at high drag settings. However this issue doesnt come up that much with my
fishing ....Jeff
Quote from: steelfish on October 17, 2016, 10:59:47 PM
Quote from: Rivverrat on October 17, 2016, 08:47:51 PM
Alex, did you notice any improvement in the smoothness of the drag at high settings ? ....Jeff
well, my dumbbell set is only 20lb so it was the max drag I could test on my Baja on a rod and it was really smooth at that drag mark, I never went higher since I didnt had a proper way to know how much more weight I was adding.
20# drag was for sure enough drag for me anyway so I stopped my test there
Alex you can always use a gallon of water as a weigh. 1 Gallon weighs 8.34 lbs. 3 gallons will put you at just about 25 lbs. Dominick
Quote from: Dominick on October 18, 2016, 06:42:56 PM
Quote from: steelfish on October 17, 2016, 10:59:47 PM
Quote from: Rivverrat on October 17, 2016, 08:47:51 PM
Alex, did you notice any improvement in the smoothness of the drag at high settings ? ....Jeff
well, my dumbbell set is only 20lb so it was the max drag I could test on my Baja on a rod and it was really smooth at that drag mark, I never went higher since I didnt had a proper way to know how much more weight I was adding.
20# drag was for sure enough drag for me anyway so I stopped my test there
Alex you can always use a gallon of water as a weigh. 1 Gallon weighs 8.34 lbs. 3 gallons will put you at just about 25 lbs. Dominick
thanks Dominick, its good to know, I could never know that since Im more into metric system.. but now I will have that into consideration if I ever need it again
note for myself: one liter of water weights one Kilogram so, 1 gallon = 3.78Lt = 3.78kg /0.454 lb = 8.34lb per gallon water
Stickied!
One thing I've failed to mention about Tom's anti reverse upgrade that I think most who use this reel will understand & appreciate.
THERE IS NO MORE FUMBLING & BUMBLING AROUND WITH THAT BLOODY HEMHROID OF A DOG SPRING, CLUSTER CLUMP !!
If you have completly disassembled Tom's anti reverse once you put it all back together it stays that way. No more holding your tounge right or being careful how you hold the bridge when matting it up to the
side plate....Jeff
Quote from: Cortez_Conversions on September 20, 2016, 06:56:25 PM
Quote from: borchcl on September 20, 2016, 02:17:58 AM
Tom, if you are going to market these, I could use two.
Charlie
As soon as the feedback confirms the design, these will be available.
Tom I need 4 of them for myself.
Keith
Could use at least one, when available.
I am definitely good for one
Quote from: steelfish on October 10, 2016, 11:35:42 PM
my the reel with the upgrade parts is still on the water, will see if I have any news to report in two weeks more.
Well, I havent gotten the reel back to open it up and check any kind of damage on the antireverse assembly by Tom, but I do recieved some pictures of the best fish caught with the upgraded Baja Special on the last weeks.
as you know, this reel was being used on a pangar charter service as loaner reel, so according to the Panguero (captain) this reel went 3-4 days on the water each week for the last 4 weeks, it caught tons of small local fishes like corvina, croaker, triggers, sierra, cabrilla (leopard grouper), etc and went through a lot of snags on the bottom each time (serious punishment to antireverse assembly), well today he told me the reel is working better than ever.
it never caught a monster fish but we werent checking drag power right? as soon as I ge the reel back in few days, I will open it up and will post some pictures of the antireverse assembly, for now some pics of the biggest fish caught with that reel in this month of use.
some nice White seabass
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/fishing/14872473_1016058841839820_1509225054_n%20SS_zpsn5uznbrd.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/fishing/14872473_1016058841839820_1509225054_n%20SS_zpsn5uznbrd.jpg.html)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/fishing/14872565_1016058928506478_2089663788_n%20SS_zpsfgonwtti.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/fishing/14872565_1016058928506478_2089663788_n%20SS_zpsfgonwtti.jpg.html)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/fishing/14875090_1016058868506484_1497693441_n%20SS_zpscjn2nprs.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/fishing/14875090_1016058868506484_1497693441_n%20SS_zpscjn2nprs.jpg.html)
I really think that with the Lab-tests made by Jeff with hard testings on the park and those panga fishing trips (loaner reels gets a lot of punishment by the rockies, specially when trying to break the line of lots of snagged terminal rigs ) and considering the reel is still performing like the 1st day, this give us an idea that Tom made a good job with this upgrade, in the real world only testing it for the entire season will tell us how many times this upgrade is better than factory AR system, but for now Im a happy camper and will get another upgrade for my 2nd Baja as soon as Tom release them.
I was wanting to see if Tom's work brought this reel into the realm of fishing it's specs as stated by Penn. Which the stock anti reverse would not do for any length of time. It's my belief Tom's work has acomplished this. With some delrin washers added, as I stated prior Im now getting a smooth fishable, flex free, drag of 25 lbs. Making this my go to reel for fishing bridge pilings & log piles. Not for sure but I believe the pinion would give out well before there is any issue with Tom's anti reverse....Jeff
well after 5-6 weeks on the water and fishing 3-4 days a week, I finally have the Baja special back to check Tom's bridge upgrade.
the bridge still works as swiss watch, sounds like music when you spin the sleeve and there were no marks on the dogs or ratchet, but you will see some marks on the sleeve from the times where the hook/lead got snagged and the captain broke it free using the boat power and/or big pulls with the rod, I was told by the Panga guy that there were some breakoff of the line while fighting a good black grouper, he was using 50# mono long leader and 80# braid line, he just tightened the drag trying the lift the fish but it must have been one big guy and it broke free to fight another day.
I dont know if there is something by using Tom's bridge/sleeve for this weeks on the reel that I feel the reel smoother and more "freely" while turning the handle or maybe its just my imagination, but now my the Baja feels smoother and sounds like a revolver with the DD with stronger springs.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/1%20Reel%20repair/IMAG8827%20ss_zpsdcgwz3fe.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/1%20Reel%20repair/IMAG8827%20ss_zpsdcgwz3fe.jpg.html)
Quote from: Rivverrat on May 10, 2016, 03:35:12 PM
Steelfish, is your friend using scales to set his drag?
The brass sleeve is showing evidence of being fished well above 20 lbs. of drag. Those marks on the sleeve are the washers cutting into the sleeve. Where the ratchet rides on the sleeve is showing evidence also. I've not witnessed this happening on this reel when fished at or below the 20 lb. level. Not when everything else is within specs. Only other scenario I'm aware of that can cause this at these drag settings is throwing the lever forward on a hard running fish.
Jeff, those are the same marks that were on the brass sleeve but now on the SS sleeve, according to your tests, then this reel was used above 20# drag almost the whole time
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/1%20Reel%20repair/IMAG8825%20ss_zpsekvmmpqe.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/1%20Reel%20repair/IMAG8825%20ss_zpsekvmmpqe.jpg.html)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/1%20Reel%20repair/IMAG8832%20ss_zpsi7h1wstd.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/1%20Reel%20repair/IMAG8832%20ss_zpsi7h1wstd.jpg.html)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/alextellofotos/1%20Reel%20repair/IMAG8830%20ss_zpslbkfw0fa.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/alextellofotos/media/1%20Reel%20repair/IMAG8830%20ss_zpslbkfw0fa.jpg.html)
Tom, you just did it compadre.. again.
That's great Alex! I have a few questions...
So normally this reel would need a complete rebuild after six weeks, correct? What does it need now?
Are the dog posts are still straight and tight?
Is there any abnormal wear on the metal drag washers?
Is there any distorted threads from the star being torqued down?
Is there any damage to the sleeve where the handle and nut tighten down?
Thanks for the great pics!
Tom
Quote from: steelfish on November 12, 2016, 01:13:53 AM
Jeff, those are the same marks that were on the brass sleeve but now on the SS sleeve, according to your tests, then this reel was used above 20# drag almost the whole time
To break most knotted, 50 lb. lines would take more than 20 lbs. of drag. The use your describing would very easily have trashed the stock anti reverse. I'm going to take a look at my sleeve I dont think I have any marring from stainless drag washers. I'll take a look to be sure. It certainly doesnt look to be enough of an issue to be a concern on your sleeve....Jeff
Quote from: Cortez_Conversions on November 12, 2016, 02:20:17 AM
That's great Alex! I have a few questions...
So normally this reel would need a complete rebuild after six weeks, correct? What does it need now?
Are the dog posts are still straight and tight?
Is there any abnormal wear on the metal drag washers?
Is there any distorted threads from the star being torqued down?
Is there any damage to the sleeve where the handle and nut tighten down?
Thanks for the great pics!
Tom
Tom, sorry for some reason I missed this post
- Normally this reel on stock form will need a new bridge, dogs and springs every 6 months, two per season, sometimes just the dogs and springs and sometimes the bridge is needed cuz the posts were bent, so, 6 weeks sounds like a short time to test it, but it was fished really rough and hard thats almost the same usage that a hobbyist sportfishing guy will do on 1-2 years, all the parts of your assembly are working as good as the 1st day, so it doesnt need anything to keep working
- Yes, Posts are still straight and tight
- not a visible mark of damage or anormal wear on metal washers, nither with the threads by the drag star or the handle nut, reel was assembled again and everything went smooth and easy while installing the dragstar and handle nut.
as a side note, maybe it was the form of the stock rachet and also the way it fit into the drive shaft base but with those stock parts I could never be able to put a delrin washer under the main gear and another delring washer on the top of the HT-100 washer stack because the main gear/washers hit inside the right handle plate, now with your parts the ratchet is completely flat and I can easily fit a Delrin washer there plus another on top of the washer stack, if someone is fan of the Delrin washer benefits this is another plus.
I will continue using this upgraded bridge assembly and will post this same thread whenever I have a great catch or a failure on the parts for future referency.
thanks again Tom for letting me be part of the Testing group for this amazing reel
Great work on this Alex.
With your input to Tom,
You have helped provide a fix for the masses.
I think this deserves a Sensei award. ;)
Quote from: Shark Hunter on November 16, 2016, 11:16:10 PM
Great work on this Alex.
With your input to Tom,
You have helped provide a fix for the masses.
I think this deserves a Sensei award. ;)
wow, I didnt saw that coming, I considering myself a young grasshopper compared to 90% of the daily active members here but that Baja guy sensei award sounds way cool so, I really appreciate that.
thanks Compadre Daron
Well deserved Alex. Without your careful analysis of the Baja's performance issue Tom may have never felt challenged enough to tackle the fix.
But I mainly wanted to add that if anyone is wondering how Tom's Cortez Baja bridge replacement is....oh my gosh!
I literally sat on the couch playing with it for a few hours (I'm home sick anyway). It has a beautiful sound and feels so precise.
I installed it in an older version Baja without the added extra sleeve bearing that later versions have. The new bridge is so well machined that I no longer have any handle slop. I'm probably not going to do the Penn sideplate / bearing upgrade now, so I saved myself some $$$.
Just wanted to say thanks to Tom for another great product.
Quote from: Rancanfish on January 09, 2017, 06:06:54 PM
Well deserved Alex. Without your careful analysis of the Baja's performance issue Tom may have never felt challenged enough to tackle the fix.
But I mainly wanted to add that if anyone is wondering how Tom's Cortez Baja bridge replacement is....oh my gosh!
I literally sat on the couch playing with it for a few hours (I'm home sick anyway). It has a beautiful sound and feels so precise.
thanks amigo, that made me laugh, I did the same you said, played with the upgrade antireverse assembly in the couch while watching TV for some time before installing it on the tester reel.
the fine tune of double clicking sound is relaxing
so where are we on this??? the solution is a hole new set plate/bridge with new dogs or was a delrin washer under the main gear also an acceptable fix???
I just got one of the old baja specials a few months back for grouper digging and it did great but when pre servicing i did notice the dinky dogs not being really well aligned.
Install Tom's bridge/sleeve...you won't regret it.
Mike
Quote from: Surfwrangler on March 03, 2017, 02:46:23 PM
so where are we on this??? the solution is a hole new set plate/bridge with new dogs or was a delrin washer under the main gear also an acceptable fix???
I just got one of the old baja specials a few months back for grouper digging and it did great but when pre servicing i did notice the dinky dogs not being really well aligned.
first welcome to da Baja Spacial owners Club, its a nice reel that worth having in the collection, then let me tell you that there were too many hours and too many guys for get into the solution of the Baja antireverse problem, of course our main guy is Tom from Cortez Corvention , Baja Special is a wonderful reel, it doesnt need to be upgraded or highly modified as the rest of the senators to be tanks, but the Baja Special achilles heel is the dog/ratchet assembly as a whole, there are no half fix for this, if you install stronger dogs, the dog-posts on the bridge will bent and the migthy drag will be nothing, so.
if you want to have your reel to the maximun there is no other way than getting a new antireverse assembly from Tom, the stock reel is awesome too if you dont fish that often or going after big fish.
I installed Toms new bridge in my us113w and I now see this reel as bullet proof. Thanks to Alex and Tom and everyone else that added their thoughts.
In the end we have to be most thankful to Tom H and his genius design of this new bridge assembly.
I'm now shopping for a Baja so I can upgrade it the same way.
-Ted