I was wondering if anyone here has ever fished one of these? This one is from the 30's and has an automatic line take up to keep the line tight.
No, but it certainly is shiny and pretty.
-steve
Intetesting reel. I always wondered what it looks like inside. I think I may have seen a patent for this one somewhere.
I will take it apart and post some pics later this evening
The reel is an Autopla as in auto-play.... and a fine example at that.
Nice find once again,
Dom
Mike is on a roll here lately. ;)
Wow! 86 year old bling. Love it. Now stay away from Daron's house. ;D The reel bug is catching. ;D ;D ;D After a while you will break into sweats bidding on ebay. :D Dominick
Another nice reel Mike, are you buying these on line or from a private stash?...just wondering.
Quote from: Alto Mare on January 04, 2017, 01:56:33 AM
Another nice reel Mike, are you buying these on line or from a private stash?...just wondering.
Sal I get them "where ever better reels are sold", lol. Auctions, online, private individuals, antique stores, and some I can't remember where they came from. Typically I've bought vintage and antique reels and rods over the years because I like the challenge of fishing with this stuff. I asked the question in my original post if anyone has used an Autopla before because it is such a weird system and seems like it requires some finesse and timing or you break the spring. But anyway I occasionally come across examples like this that are really nice and I enjoy sharing my passion with the guys and gals following this forum.
Quote from: Dominick on January 04, 2017, 01:40:57 AM
Wow! 86 year old bling. Love it. Now stay away from Daron's house. ;D The reel bug is catching. ;D ;D ;D After a while you will break into sweats bidding on ebay. :D Dominick
Going to Daron's house is like going to see the Wizard of Oz. One of the most amazing coincidences in my life was when I learned the mighty Shark Hunter lived on 10 minutes away.
Quote from: broadway on January 03, 2017, 11:00:39 PM
The reel is an Autopla as in auto-play.... and a fine example at that.
Nice find once again,
Dom
Dom it's nice when a collector of your stature appreciates this stuff. God knows you got an unbelievable collection.
Here's a couple pics of the reel disassembled by loosening two thumb screws on the head plate and pulling it apart. Going any further is way above my pay grade on a reel like this. You can't really see the auto-wind mechanism behind the plate. I'm afraid if I try to open that up stuff will start flying and I'll never get it back together. My guess is it's a very complicated system based on what I know about how the reel works.
Well Mike, thinking about it, it doesn't really matter where you get them from, as long as you keep on sharing your treasures with us ;D.
Looking at the pic, it seams the main gear moves towards the pinion. Very clever design, no need to worry about engagement.
Now got me thinking how doesn't that gear slide off when under pressure :-\.
Keep them coming Mike and thanks for sharing!
Sal
Cool beans!
Here are a few posts on this reel from the ORCA site...
http://reeltalk.orcaonline.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13004&hilit=Autopla
It sounds like a sound decusion to leave that bridge, and the wound flat spring contained beneath in place!
http://reeltalk.orcaonline.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8225&hilit=Autopla
Wow!
They made this guy in a 9/0...
How cool would that be!
http://reeltalk.orcaonline.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4461&hilit=Autopla
Looks like there is a cool article available on the Pflueger automatic reels in a Reel News back issue... I may have to see if I have it in my stack of old issues.
Also found this...
"There were some interesting patents for the Autopla, notably those of J.F. White (1,914,470 and 1,914,471) that were originally assigned to a Mr. Henry D. Lane of Richmond CA. Enterprise later acquired both and incoporated them into their Autopla."
That's a coincidence. I've been using a little Shakespeare reel that also disengages by swinging the main gear away from the pinion. It seems weird, but is a very compact and simple approach.
It sounds like they have the spool spring encapsulated in the tail plate so it may not be too terrifying to deal with if the capsule is not opened.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on January 04, 2017, 08:11:24 PM
That's a coincidence. I've been using a little Shakespeare reel that also disengages by swinging the main gear away from the pinion. It seems weird, but is a very compact and simple approach.
It sounds like they have the spool spring encapsulated in the tail plate so it may not be too terrifying to deal with if the capsule is not opened.
-steve
This bridge style is commonplace on many reels from the era. It was one of the first patents for a disengaging pinion mechanism.
Thanks for posting all the ORCA links. I don't believe it was made in a 9/0 size and the links I read bear that out. Too bad. I was starting to gear up for the hunt.
Would anyone be interested in seeing a video of an Autopla being fished? I'm thinking I might make one this Spring when I return to the Panhandle. I would troll for Kings or Bonita. I would have to do some research on how it was intended to be used.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on January 04, 2017, 10:52:14 PM
This bridge style is commonplace on many reels from the era. It was one of the first patents for a disengaging pinion mechanism.
I believe it is a Kopf clutch. Patented in 1885:
(https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US318190-0.png)
https://www.google.com/patents/US318190?dq=318190
I have a couple Ocean City and Pflueger reels that I believe are from the 1920s that use that clutch design. The free spool lever does not have a spring. It just uses friction to hold the gears in their relative positions. I imagine stripped gears were pretty common in those days.
Thats it.
Let us know how that works out Mike. It would be interesting to play around with when you get some line on it.
Thank you for the patent info Bryan. It goes way back. A more recent example from 1938:
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/SPFSa.JPG)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/SPFSb.JPG)
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/SPFSc.JPG)
A domed washer on the outside of the head plate puts enough tension on the sliding bridge screw to hold it in place.
-steve
Really nice reel Steve.
First let me apologize for butting in on your thread Mike. Should have started a new one.
Anyway.... I have two of these Shakespeare but the trouble is the hard rubber spacers on the side plates. I'm trying to understand hard rubber as there seems to be several formulations. On the Shakespeare (and others with similar formulation) it has remained black over time, but has shrunk a little. On Julius Vom Hofe (and others with similar formulation) the hard rubber turns brown over time, but it does not shrink or swell. The Shakespeare-type hard rubber is softer and somewhat pliable but does not machine well (it globs up). The Vom Hofe-type is much harder and machines really well; better than bakelite. I'm wondering if the one that turns brown has a reinforcing filler material like the wood powder used in bakelite.
On this particular model, when the black hard rubber spacers shrank a little they squeezed the protruding clutch lever and limited it's range. The gears would not fully engage or disengage. So, if someone tried to use it after the spacers shrunk they would bugger-up the gears. One of mine has nearly perfect gears and the other has damaged gears. I ground and carved out the spacers a bit to accommodate the clutch lever and they work fine now. With the free spool and aluminum spool flanges they cast exceptionally well for a reel of this period. This is the one with the buggered gears:
(http://www.raingarden.us/snap/oio77.jpg)
-steve
Well Steve to redeem yourself for butting in you can just send me one of those beautiful Shakespeare's 😜 Just kidding of course. Anyway, I can't answer your question so I'll just butt out and let someone with some reel knowledge tackle it.
Very interesting old reel. Love the Autopla. The one you have is as fine as I have ever seen. Usually they are very used. Here is a page fromn the Ruby book about the Autopla.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Pflueger/Pflueger%20Autopla%20720%20x%20582_zpsobcy7xaq.jpg)
And since you guys brought up the Kopf Clutch I had to add this. It is not my reel. It belongs to very learned ORCA member. These are rare and all hand made. It is a Kopf Reel. Not sure of the vintage, probably 19th Century.
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Pflueger/KopfFS-1%20750%20x%20642_zpswyelnwwu.jpg)
(http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/m3040c/Pflueger/KopfFS-2%20-%20Copy%201008%20x%20606_zpshqovu0gp.jpg)
To me, this is art!
Cool! Got the very common P. Model1893 Akron. And several other Shakespears 'n Pfluegers probably all from the 40's-50's. Never seen the koph clutch on the latter ones, did they makin 'em with that ? And why would they stop?
Gfish
The Kopf clutch became obsolete after WW II. The reason was because complete disengagement of the gears was not the best way to do it. Placing the gears back in mesh while the reel was under load caused grinding, especially if the gears were straight cut. As constantly meshed gear system were perfected, the Iconic Kopf Clutch was done.
The 1933 Penn Sea Ford and the Penn Bay Side used a Kopf system; but, Penn was quick to see its limitations.
Mike,
That reel is beautiful.
I agree. That's a very elegant reel.
The jack, yoke and sliding pinion is certainly more robust and foolproof. Also, the better clutch made it feasible to add a drag and the drag made it feasible to add anti-reverse.
Gfish, maybe the Koph clutch was an evolutionary dead end because of the limitations Mike describes and a lot of stripped gears coming in for repair.
You certainly have to be careful that both the spool and main are not moving when the Koph clutch is engaged or disengaged. One wrong move and permanent damage is done. I'm still enamored though because it is so simple and compact. Now I want a Koph-like clutch that simultaneously disengages both the spool and the level wind gear. Should be possible. Anybody ever seen such a thing?
-steve
Kinda like synchro-mesh ona manual auto. trans. causes less wear, perhaps.
Gfish
If anyone has an Autopla I would like to see it.
Quote from: oc1 on January 14, 2017, 07:24:51 AM
I agree. That's a very elegant reel.
.....
Now I want a Koph-like clutch that simultaneously disengages both the spool and the level wind gear. Should be possible. Anybody ever seen such a thing?
-steve
Good question!
I had to go do some research. I spent a few hours reading posts on early levelwinds on the ORCA site, then reread a good chunk of Steve Vernon's book on early levelwind patents.
I couldn't find anything. There have been some ingenious designs over the past 160+years. Many early levelwinds either focused on smoother gears, bearings etc, or freespool mechanisms. Those levdlwinds capable of disengaging the drive train typically accomplished this by a laterial movement of the pawl, a laterial movement of the main gear, or a laterial movement of the worm gear itself. Many simply made levelwinds that would 'fall' out of the way during the cast. Some used more complex designs that rotated one or more gears out of the way, or had one way clutches that would only enage the levelwing pawl when reeling. The variety of early mechanisms is truely astounding, and teacing the evolution of these mechasism is a fascinating exercise. The simpliest strongest, most compsct designs gained the greatest favor and ended up becoming the industry standard.
I like the early Marhoff/Shakespeare levelwind reels, though they may not have really been the best (IMHO).
I could easily have missed something here. There were alot of early reels that utilized the Kopf clutch, or later (separately patented) variations therof. I am pretty sure Steve Vernon could answer this question much better then myself.
John
Man !! Thank you very much for that John.
The basis of the original Marhoff design seems to have stayed the course and can still be seen in new models today. I guess the big change came with jack/yoke clutch when they had to start putting the level wind gear on the tail plate and driving it off the spool. Then after introducing the disengaging level wind they moved the levelwind gear back to the head plate and drive it off the main gear again. Pre-clutch most of the levelwind knuckle busters have the main gear meshing with the pinion at about 9:00 and simultaneously meshing with the levewind gear at about 2:00. It would seem easy enough to drop the main gear down and out of the way and free up everything. Very precarious to use, but not impossible.
-steve
I enlisted some help over on ORCA on this one...
http://reeltalk.orcaonline.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19615
Maybe someone with more knowledge then myself csn provide a better answer here.
John
I would think that if you had the worm line guide gear and spool pinion gear place in a position that would allow the main gear to engage with them both at the same time, then a pivoting bridge could move the main gear away from them both at the same time. The problem is when it is time to engage these gears I see a clash happening. Synchronizing three gears might be more trouble than it is worth. Just a thought ???
Can't think of a reel that does that; but, in the freshwater world, they do all kinds of crazy engineering. I bet there is one out there.
With the right wrist action the gears could be made to mesh. Rotate the main into the pinion first because it has deeper teeth and then catch the levelwind. I believe I could make one using parts from here and there and some rustic metal work. But, it would be a lot of work and I wouldn't really have anything in the end? Neither fish nor fowl. Not a vintage reel. Not an easy reel to use. Poorer performance than a modern reel. Not as compact or light as a modern reel. Not valuable. Worth less than the sum of the parts. A lot of reel destruction left in the wake.
-steve
QuoteWith the right wrist action the gears could be made to mesh. Rotate the main into the pinion first because it has deeper teeth and then catch the levelwind. I believe I could make one using parts from here and there and some rustic metal work. But, it would be a lot of work and I wouldn't really have anything in the end? Neither fish nor fowl. Not a vintage reel. Not an easy reel to use. Poorer performance than a modern reel. Not as compact or light as a modern reel. Not valuable. Worth less than the sum of the parts. A lot of reel destruction left in the wake.
I don't know Steve, after your keen analysis of the situation, I believe I would rather spend the day straightening old rusty nails........ :-\
What about about a Penn-like clutch. It'd disengage the pinion from the spool in the usual way and disengage the worm unit from its perspective gear with some kinda mini-worm gear yoke. Can't envision what the "mini eccentric jack" connection 'ed look like, though.
Gfish, that sounds a lot like a modern low profile baitcasting reel. Already have one of those.
You're right Mike. At the end of the day at least there would be some straight rusty nails.
-steve
Quote from: Tightlines666 on January 15, 2017, 09:56:48 PM
I enlisted some help over on ORCA on this one...
http://reeltalk.orcaonline.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19615
Maybe someone with more knowledge then myself csn provide a better answer here.
John
Got some feedback over on ORCA.
The answer is basically.. no/not likely.
Steve Vernon sums it up by saying simply that this is...
"Not a great idea"
John
Sure glad he provided the reasons why not. Really helps with my education.
Gfish