I picked up this little Mitchell 314 locally for $15, serviced it and loaded it with some with 8# blue Ande Back Country monofilament. A nice, sweet cranking little reel. As I was cranking new line onto the reel spool, I noticed the reel was loading the line onto the spool in a way that there was more at the bottom and gradually less at the top of the spool. The transition on the spool of more line to less line takes place so evenly and perfectly that at first I thought it might be designed to do that to cast further, but then got concerned it could cause the line to drop off the spool, which it actually started doing to some extent.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Is it normal or a malfunction?
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_17264_28_10_17_11_56_29_223271775.jpeg)
Putting line on a spool has always been like black magic to me. I can get it on the spool OK, but I always manage to get it all twisted up.
Now that you know my level of expertise on the subject, it looks to me like there's too much line of your spool.
Also, looking at the schematics of the 314, it appears that they have planamatic gearing like the big salt water reels.
I am familiar with the salt water reels (the 302 in particular) and (AFAIK) the planamatic gearing assembles only one way. I've never had a 314 apart, but maybe what you're seeing is an incorrect assembly issue with the gears.
When I'm putting new line on a spinning reel, I always crank it so it comes off the new line spool counter-clockwise and it spools on with little to no twist. Cranking it off clockwise will cause it to twist badly. The problems I get with line twist is with doing a lot of casting, even with a swivel.
I may indeed have a little too much line on the reel, but I left slightly over an eighth inch space between the line and top edge of the spool (measured it). Some of the wider coils of line have dropped down towards the front of the spool making it look more overfilled. I've never had that problem on any of my other spinning reels. For a light/ultralight class reel, this 314 has a wider spool (particularly at the bottom) and holds a lot of line.
As this, so far, is the only Mitchell I've taken apart and serviced, it's entirely possible there is an incorrect assembly issue with the gears. As far as I could tell everything went back together smoothly the way it came off, but being only about seven months into learning to service and repair all my reels, anything is possible--or better yet, probable.
With the planamatic gears where the spool bobs up and down at different intervals -- just assemble the gears at a different point -- in relation to position and spool shaft -- and see how that works. Might need to do it a couple of times to improve it.
Also, make sure the spool is all of the way down on the shaft.
Also make sure that there are no extra under-spool spacer washers.
The line lay should be even and flat from front to back -- and it should be 1/8" under the lowest curve of the upper lip -- regardless of where it spools onto the bottom.
All should be even.
This is an easy problem to fix.
These 314/315's have the better line lay system -- as compared to the more common 304/305.
Best,
Fred
Fred,
Thanks for the tips. There's a lot I wasn't seeing in this reel. I tried resetting the gear numerous times, and currently have the gears out, but now I'm starting to take a closer look at the spool. I made several observances here:
With the planetary and satellite gears removed, the slide goes down further. The prominences protruding from the interior side plate of reel body keep the gears from moving the slide further towards the end --that seems to be the way it's supposed to be. So now the spool...
The spool seems to lock down onto the axis/shaft in the rotor okay, but maybe not quite far enough down. Looking into the hole on the bottom side of the spool, the end of the shaft tube is slightly off center from the "teeth" inside the bottom of the spool; also it's making a rubbing noise on the shaft. I'll need to remove all the line (tomorrow) in order to take the spool apart to make sure all the spool parts are centered and correctly assembled. That might resolve the problem. (I had previously taken the spool apart when I serviced the reel.)
I'll let you know what I find after I get the spool checked out, but for tonight I've got to hit the sack early.
The spool looks to be okay ---it fits down on the shaft and locks into place properly. No under-washers in contact with the bottom of the spool. In the bottom of the rotor is the hex nut, bail trip, a small steel washer and a thin brass or copper washer/shim. Tried removing the washers from under the bail trip to no effect. The reel is still loading the spool heavier at the bottom.
Some pics would likely help --
Could be something as simple as a bent bail.
Best,
Fred
Quote from: foakes on October 30, 2017, 02:53:12 PM
Some pics would likely help --
Could be something as simple as a bent bail.
Best,
Fred
Or a bent bail trip arm or worn bail plate. As Fred indicated, it doesn't take much misalignment of the bail line guide to stack additional line at the base of the spool.
I'm hoping to get some photos posted later this evening.
It's a nice little reel with not many parts, and the first planamatic reel system I've encountered, but the solution hasn't been obvious and it's starting to get the best of me.
I believe the Mitchell 309 I got a couple of weeks ago has planamatic gearing. When you crank the handle to retrieve, watch how the spool kinda hesitates & reels in at a varying pace--that's the planamatic at work. It is hard to describe, but the spool does not move at a uniform pace. But, I'm suspecting it shouldn't stack line at the back of the spool likes yours is doing, wfjord.
Will look forward to your additional info later.
Frank
Quote from: happyhooker on October 30, 2017, 09:56:05 PM
I believe the Mitchell 309 I got a couple of weeks ago has planamatic gearing. When you crank the handle to retrieve, watch how the spool kinda hesitates & reels in at a varying pace--that's the planamatic at work. It is hard to describe, but the spool does not move at a uniform pace. But, I'm suspecting it shouldn't stack line at the back of the spool likes yours is doing, wfjord.
Will look forward to your additional info later.
Frank
Here's an example of how it is supposed to work.
Here's a nice 304 example (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ais-QH9-MVc)
If all else fails you can shim the rotor up. This will raise everything else. How many shims are on the shaft before putting the rotor on?
How many shims under the bail trip? Put those on the shaft before the rotor.
Keith, I was thinking shimming the rotor might be helpful. I don't have a shim that would fit it --the shim would have to be wide enough to go over the pinion which is built into the rotor.
There is one small shim and a steel washer between the hex nut and the inner rotor surface. They won't fit anywhere other than on the threaded end of the tube that extends from the body section up through the pinion and into the rotor.
Most recently today, I've been working again at resetting the main gear to see if it makes differences with the position of the middle satellite(?) gear with the two knobs, but it's really impossible to know because there's no way to see their positions. So far nothing has worked.
This is probably way more photos than anyone wants to see, but maybe one of them will be helpful.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_17264_30_10_17_11_07_22_22331505.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_17264_30_10_17_11_07_22_22332565.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_17264_30_10_17_11_07_22_223331106.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_17264_30_10_17_11_07_23_223341858.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_17264_30_10_17_11_07_23_22335142.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_17264_30_10_17_11_07_23_223361367.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_17264_30_10_17_11_07_23_223372335.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_17264_30_10_17_11_07_23_22338106.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_17264_30_10_17_11_07_25_223391823.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_17264_30_10_17_11_07_25_223401937.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_17264_30_10_17_11_07_28_223452106.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_17264_30_10_17_11_07_26_223432216.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_17264_30_10_17_11_07_26_223442359.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_17264_30_10_17_11_07_31_22346963.jpeg)
The bail and line guide is not perpendicular to the spool. That can mess up the line lay. I don't know what the bail stop looks like but it could be worn or hammered down from the bail slamming shut.
-steve
That is one pretty reel. I only knew of the 304. I wasn't aware of at 314.
Can't help with your line issue. Sorry.
I don't know if shimming beneath the rotor is a good idea or not as it would be pulling the pinion away from the main gear to some degree. There is, however, a slight bit of in-and-out play between the rotor and body of the reel, so...
Steve, the bail stops against the upper back side of the area that houses the bail spring and bail arm screw. I noticed part of the bail stop area is hammered down very slightly, but it's almost indiscernible, maybe a millimeter --the paint is not worn down to the metal there. I can see how that could keep the line guide from laying line in the top area of the spool, but would that also cause the line to wound onto the spool at an overall diagonal angle? Still, if there's a way to shim or build up the bail stop, it could be beneficial to at least part of the problem --what's the best way to do that?
Observing the "bobbling" action of the spool, as Fred perfectly described it, the gearing mechanism keeps the spool up high more often than down low. The spool bobbles down to it's lower position much less often. So far I've not been able to reset the gear position in a way that improves it. On the last reset I did, there was one point in the intervals where the spool is at an apex and if I press on the top of it, the spool and shaft freely drop down to a lower position; that hadn't happened before.
I'd like to be able to get this reel working properly... but I'm starting to get a bad feeling about it.
Don't get discouraged -- at this point, the real learning occurs...
I have any parts necessary to provide you (NC) once we determine the issue/issues.
Shims, bail, bail trip, screws, rotor, etc..
You have received good advice from some very experienced reel wizards -- you will get it back in perfect order.
At this point, I am leaning towards worn issues with an out of alignment bail or bail stop -- or a combination of factors that add up to an issue.
Best,
Fred
Quote from: wfjord on October 31, 2017, 04:54:56 PM
I don't know if shimming beneath the rotor is a good idea or not as it would be pulling the pinion away from the main gear to some degree. There is, however, a slight bit of in-and-out play between the rotor and body of the reel, so...
There should be little, if any, play between the body and rotor. Paper thin, at the most, so that the rotor spins freely without rubbing or binding on the body housing. If you have play as you say the pinion gear is automatically pulling away from the main gear whenever line tension is put on the spool.
In restoring old worn spinning reels where replacement parts were obsolete I have had to add a thin shim between the rotor and body to take up slack and correct line lay many times. I generally try to use an appropriate thickness bronze or brass shim, although, when excessive noise is a problem I've been known to use a thin nylon or teflon shim to shush it down a little.
Quote from: Bryan Young on October 31, 2017, 12:09:25 PM
That is one pretty reel. I only knew of the 304. I wasn't aware of at 314.
Likewise. And because I've got a problem, there's one coming to me in the mail off the bay now ::)
I will find some shims for that reel. It shouldn't have any noticeable play between the rotor and body of the reel. It may have had shims at one time. All of them did but they get worked on so much they get lost.
The one Mitchell 300 I did the other day had 3 shims on the pinion gear. 3 more inside the reel. Most of the time there are none in the reel after its been apart so many times over the years.
Quote from: foakes on October 31, 2017, 05:16:13 PM
Don't get discouraged -- at this point, the real learning occurs...
I have any parts necessary to provide you (NC) once we determine the issue/issues.
Shims, bail, bail trip, screws, rotor, etc..
You have received good advice from some very experienced reel wizards -- you will get it back in perfect order.
At this point, I am leaning towards worn issues with an out of alignment bail or bail stop -- or a combination of factors that add up to an issue.
Best,
Fred
Fred, thanks for the encouragement and your offer of any parts I might need. Hopefully we'll figure out fairly soon what those parts will be.
Quote from: Midway Tommy on October 31, 2017, 05:55:29 PM
There should be little, if any, play between the body and rotor. Paper thin, at the most, so that the rotor spins freely without rubbing or binding on the body housing. If you have play as you say the pinion gear is automatically pulling away from the main gear whenever line tension is put on the spool.
In restoring old worn spinning reels where replacement parts were obsolete I have had to add a thin shim between the rotor and body to take up slack and correct line lay many times. I generally try to use an appropriate thickness bronze or brass shim, although, when excessive noise is a problem I've been known to use a thin nylon or teflon shim to shush it down a little.
Quote from: handi2 on October 31, 2017, 11:23:33 PM
I will find some shims for that reel. It shouldn’t have any noticeable play between the rotor and body of the reel. It may have had shims at one time. All of them did but they get worked on so much they get lost.
The one Mitchell 300 I did the other day had 3 shims on the pinion gear. 3 more inside the reel. Most of the time there are none in the reel after its been apart so many times over the years.
I'm thinking there are two possible points where a shim could be placed to reduce movement between the rotor and body ---the first would be to put a wide shim around the base of the pinion where it's built into the rotor; the second would be a smaller shim around the base of the shaft tube that slides from the body up through the pinion and rotor. Any thoughts on which would be the better spot for a shim?
Keith, thanks for your offer!
I start with one over the pinion on the back of the rotor.
Fred mentioned this earlier but I'll bring it up again. Have you removed the spool spindle to see if it is fitting correctly into the spool? On the 314 & 315 there should be no washer between the spool and spindle or on the back of the spindle between the spindle and the main shaft.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/17004_31_10_17_8_11_53_22347256.jpeg)
.
Tommy,
there is a thin red hard drag washer inside the spool at the base of the spindle:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_17264_01_11_17_10_45_39_223531177.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_17264_01_11_17_10_42_12_223521024.jpeg)
Edit (again):
Here's shot of the wear on the bail stop. It does show some paint wear, but probably not a mm deep and only on the corner. I don't know if that affects the problem or not, but shimming the bail stop should at least correct the angle of the bail Steve pointed out.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_17264_01_11_17_1_56_44_223541867.jpeg)
Quote from: wfjord on November 01, 2017, 06:01:47 PM
.
Tommy,
there is a thin red hard drag washer inside the spool at the base of the spindle:
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_17264_01_11_17_10_45_39_223531177.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/22/medium_17264_01_11_17_10_42_12_223521024.jpeg)
Therein lies at least part of your line lay problem, although you may still need a thin shim between the rotor and body to take up some slack. On the deep (9108) spools such as yours the red fiber washer goes between the break spring and the spool. The shallow (9107) spools don't have that fiber washer at all. If you look closely at the schematic you can see the difference in spool depths and that one has a washer and the other one doesn't. Put the drag washer in the right location and see how much difference that makes for you.
We might be turning a corner here...
I see the differences in the two spools on the schematic and now have the drag washer in its proper place.
I think a thin shim between the rotor & body would be helpful, too.
***In studying the schematic, I think I see the cause of the problem with the gears. The schematic shows a crosswind cam (part 81133)---There is not one of those in my reel.
I'm not clear on where that part fits in --the schematic has it set aside from the other gears.
The crosswind cam is only if you want to change the operation of your reel from planamatic gearing (bobbing up and down at varying intervals) to the standard crosswind gearing like on the 304.
That is why your reel does not have this part -- it is the rarer, upgraded 314.
When you get your parts figured out -- just let me know so I can send them out.
At this point, I would suggest a new bail, bail trip, a couple of bail bearing screws, a new bail spring, and a few assorted shims. This is more than you need -- but will bring it back to new operation both cosmetically and functionally.
Best,
Fred
It's nice to know the 314 is a rarer upgraded model. Once I get it back into working order it'll have a permanent place in my arsenal with the primary purpose of getting fished.
I'm going to go into it again and try resetting the gears a few more times. It's bugging me that at a certain point the gear cycle the spool and main shaft freely slipped to a lower position simply by my pressing the top of the spool. That only started after the last gear reset. I was wondering if Garcia Mitchell ever addressed the issue of a "recommended" position for the planet and satellite gears to be arranged in when reassembling this reel?
Fred, I'll trust your judgment in regards to the parts you suggested and at what point you want to send them. That is very generous of you.
I'll be out of town and away from a computer for most of this weekend.
I'm appreciating all you guys for your expertise, help and encouragement with this.
I've been working with the gears, resetting them a few more times and finally got them set today so the bobbing action of the spool seems much better and more evenly distributed from high to low.
I don't know if or how this might affect anything, but I measured at least a millimeter of up and down play in the main shaft, with or without the spool on, while holding the rotor stationary. Is that something that matters?
So, as it currently stands there is approximately a millimeter of up and down play in the rotor to body connection that needs to be shimmed at the base of the pinion.
Fred, you suggested a new bail, bail trip, a couple of bail bearing screws, a new bail spring, and a few assorted shims.
As far as I can see I think I'm ready to get this reel fixed up.
QuoteI don't know if or how this might affect anything, but I measured at least a millimeter of up and down play in the main shaft, with or without the spool on, while holding the rotor stationary. Is that something that matters?
That depends on the line lay on the spool and whether or not you can live with how it stacks. It is enough to warrant a thin shim, though, if the line doesn't lay correctly and you want it as close to optimum as possible.