Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Hey Everybody,

i am new here and need some help from the experts on this site.  i recently purchased a 6500 c3 2 speed reel off but it seems like the drag is not tight at all, even if i turn the star drag all the way.  i did some research and it seems like it could caused by excess grease or oil on the drag washers. but i can't find a tutorial on how to take a part the 2 speed and it seems quite more complicated than the regular c3.

any suggestions?

thanks!

Welcome aboard KemaZhu.Try Here.

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=1512.0

Thanks. I actually did follow the directions of that post but didn't fix the problem.  I am not sure if my drag washers are bad or maybe it is something else. Plus I have the 2 speed model, the internals are a bit different and I think it has two sets of drag washers. So I am not sure what to do.

There's a 2-speed model here which may help.

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=894.0

Thanks for the link and the help. But the reel I have it has the regular star drag and it also has an auto shift drag where it shifts to a lower gear ratio depending on the pull power I think. Anybody has any idea why the drag would be slipping?

The reel you're describing is a Syncro model. I've never opened a 6500 version but the drag system should be similar to the 7000. Here's a link...

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=1027.0



Cheers, T

maybe a picture would help. thanks for the help again guys. 

(http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p640/deeandjin/reel.jpg)

Try here:

http://www.abugarcia.com/sites/default/files/schematics/6500C3%202SPEED%200103.pdf

or here:

http://www.abugarcia.com/sites/default/files/schematics/6500C3%2089-1.PDF

or here (depending on your reel foot number)

http://www.abugarcia.com/sites/default/files/schematics/6500C3%202SPEED%200101.PDF

ah thanks man.  the last linked was the one i am looking for. i opened her up and found that there are lot of grease/oil in between the drag washers. is that normal? i wiped them down and tried my best to put every back together and the drag was still the same.  now i am stumped.  i called Alan today and hopefully he will give me a call back and we can set something up this weekend. 

thanks for all the help guys!

These are nice reels.

O wow thanks for the detailed post. I opened her back up again and did find the small spring. But the other two parts are harder to find. Maybe the previous owner lost it and didn't care to tell me. Do you know the part number of those parts? Thank you so much.

Ps. Typically how long does it usually take for Alan to respond. I called and left a message, I PMed him and emailed him still haven't gotten a response. I understand he is busy but I am wondering how long it usually takes.

Thanks again for all the help!

Alan's chaperoning a school trip to Yosemite all this week.

These are nice reels, just a little awkward to deal with.

thanks for covering, guys.  so the two speed abu is a little tricky to work on.  first question, though.  any possibility that you have spectra slipping on the spool? 

Hey Alan, welcome back. The reel is spooled with mono so it is not spectra slipping.

thanks.  got 200 e-mails, 50 pm's and all of these posts to catch up on.     does the handle get more difficult to turn when you crank down on the star?

wow that's lot of catch up to do haha.  and to answer your question, yes it does. as i tighten up on the star drag,  the handle gets harder to turn.

sounds like the star is bottoming out.  when you crank down on the star to increase the drag, it might be rubbing against the side plate.  another shim washer of some sort might be the answer.  did someone open up the reel before?  it should not be doing that if the drag and washer stack is the same. 

I see. I did purchase this reel second hand so that could be a possibility. Also I did open up the reel myself. Maybe I did something wrong.

another metal washer might do the trick, but these reels are no fun to work on.   :-\

I see. Will you be free anytime soon to work on the reel? And I would like to put the carbontex washers in. Should I order some myself or do you have extras?

Thanks

i have the washers already.  go ahead and ship the reel out anytime.  it will be a while before i can get to it, though.  alan

Hey Alan and Jim

Thanks for the great job you have done on my reel. It is awesome. I just have 1 question, does my reel have instant anti reverse? Cuz ever since I got the reel, I am able to reel backwards just a bit. Not sure if that's normal cuz they don't have the technology yet or it is something else. I tried to search online but since it is a pretty rare reel, I couldn't find any definite answer. So please let me know.

Thanks

the ones i worked on never did.  jim serviced this one, so we will have to wait for his answer, but i think the answer is no.

KemaZhu,

I have the same reel with the same problem.  What did you do to fix the drag?

I just serviced three of them and all three have silent dogs and no ARBs.

Drags, I replaced them with HT-100s and greased them up with Cal's.

Hi, folks.... instant anti-reverse was not installed in the Abus until later.

The 2-speed's a/r dog (as can any of the abu round reels using the dog) can be modified to ~approximate~ iar, by shimming the sideplate at the dog contact point, limiting its outward travel, before it comes back to make reverse.

A little disk of leather either cut from a shoe, or a pool cue tip is about right. Use contact cement to affix the disk on the sideplate behind the dog.  Don Iovino has a web page, and he may share his shim secrets, he may not.
There are other ways, but the leather disk is fast, effective, and affordable.

Hi guys,

I'm a newbie to the 6500 C3 2-3peed and I found and followed this thread (thanks for sharing the knowledge). I have a similar problem to KemaZhu in that the drag doesn't want to tighten no matter how much I crank down on the star wheel. The star wheel is not bottoming out on the case as far as I can tell. I've had it apart a dozen times now, installed new parts and can't seem to fix it. I have the schematics and 2-speed instructions from Abu.  Everything looks right. Driving me nuts. Any ideas?

Thanks

Buddy,

There are a couple of things that I can think of that could be the problem. 

1)  Does the reel shift gears?  Sometimes that sliding shaft gets stuck and binds, and no matter how hard you crank down on the star, the drag does not engage.

2) Your drag washer is not thick enough.  without the right thickness in drag washers, you will have a metal to metal contact between the pressure plats and the gear, thus limiting the drag.

I need to take the reel apart again to look further, but I think these could be the problem if my memory services me well.

Bryan

Quote from: Buddyboy on February 11, 2013, 05:37:55 PM
Hi guys,

I'm a newbie to the 6500 C3 2-3peed and I found and followed this thread (thanks for sharing the knowledge). I have a similar problem to KemaZhu in that the drag doesn't want to tighten no matter how much I crank down on the star wheel. The star wheel is not bottoming out on the case as far as I can tell. I've had it apart a dozen times now, installed new parts and can't seem to fix it. I have the schematics and 2-speed instructions from Abu.  Everything looks right. Driving me nuts. Any ideas?

Thanks

Did you crack the driveshaft, being careful not to lose that little retaining pin? There's another washer after you do that.  20171, little pin 20715

http://www.nutterrodandreel.com/pdf/Abu%20Garcia/1996/6500c3-2%200103.pdf

To add, the drive shaft is telescoping. The inner drive shaft often gets bent a little if your drags are too high.  Which means that you may need to file down the flaired edges to make it smooth again to allowed the outer drives shaft to slide on the inner drive shaft.

Thanks Bryan and Ken,

Nice to talk with people who know the reel.  First of all, the reel does not switch gears as far as I can tell. When I took the shafts apart, they were stuck together.  I had to knock the pin out to separate them.  The shafts would not slide over each other. I took some emery cloth and took off any edges and applied some reel lube.  They seemed to slide fine after that. I figured that they had to slide to shift gears.  Now it seems like it slides too far and the upper gear doesn't engage any more (new problem).  I've put everything together according to the schematic with all new drag washers and shims. Still can't get it to tighten down.

This was a new (never used) older reel. I figured that replacing all the old drag washers with new ones would fix it. I'm at the point now where I've got so many replacement parts that I'm thinking of buying another one so I have 1 good one.

Thanks

If you want me to look at it, PM me for my address.

Check for missing shims and o-rings and that wispy spring from the top of the side gear stack, that gets grease-glued to inside the sideplate.

That wispy spring is the bane of many DIY folks....it sticks to the side plate, and gets lost in the cleaning process, or as the plate is moved about on the bench.  Pn's 13101, 20184, 20188.  Also:

Ensure that the brass bearing spacers are oriented correctly, the bigger one on the bottom closest to the driveshaft, with the shoulder up, to catch the inner race of the bb. Then the smaller one with the shoulder down, to catch the top of the inner race of the bb. 20716, 20721, 20717.

I've studied the 5500 C3 2 speed for hours and I cannot figure out how it really works.  I understand conceptually, but how everything really works.  I wish I had clear sideplates.

I've done everything you suggested, Ken.  Even bought more springs because I thought I lost the original but it was stuck to the side plate.  I don't understand how the gear shift works.  I've got the two shafts sliding freely now but it seems like if it slides the length of the slot in the lower shaft that the upper gear no longer has another gear to contact. I really like messing with it but I'd like to use it too.
Thanks for the insight guys.

I found one of these very cheap  at a garage sale a couple of weekends ago. It was in great condition but after I  had a quick look at this thread and sold it shortly afterwards.

Quote from: raumati01 on February 15, 2013, 10:09:57 AM
I found one of these very cheap  at a garage sale a couple of weekends ago. It was in great condition but after I  had a quick look at this thread and sold it shortly afterwards.

That's too bad. I've had mine for fifteen years; it has functioned flawlessly. No problems with it or with servicing it.

Quote from: Bryan Young on February 14, 2013, 02:08:44 AM
  I wish I had clear sideplates.

I've spent an hour looking for a picture of an Ambassadeur with clear sideplates i made a few years ago. Couldn't find it. Too bad. Next time.

Quote from: Bryan Young on February 14, 2013, 02:08:44 AM
I've studied the 5500 C3 2 speed for hours and I cannot figure out how it really works.  I understand conceptually, but how everything really works. 

Mmm, well that isn't entirely easy to explain properly. Or, it is, but not in depth without getting too wordy.

Really, it is fairly simply ingenious... A dual transmission similar to any other two-speed, except instead of a solid dog clutch deciding which gear to use, this one uses a friction clutch, just like a star drag.
Or, see it this way: a star drag reel setup, with two gears and two drags- a weak one and a strong one. When under load, the weak drag with the hi-speed gear will slip first. Which leaves the strong drag with the lo-speed gear to drive.

The tricky part, is exactly how it does this. Obviously, you can't have two transmissions at different ratios at the same time. One of them needs to be able to rotate at a different speed, similar to a differential.

Here, let Abu explain that part This is the latest version of Abu's two-speed automatics. They had a couple of other versions from the late '60s as well.

(http://www.google.com/patents?id=wBwoAAAAEBAJ&hl=sv&hl=sv&pg=PA1&img=1&zoom=4&sig=ACfU3U1vFHYmvoZmwyfiZO3sroP_fmW7GA&ci=530%2C179%2C386%2C443&edge=0)

Similar to this version from the Ambassadeur 10 000, which didn't allow the user to set the shift point individually.

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/DrRob101/from%20kodak%20gall/DSC00150.jpg)

Anyway, to the subject at hand:

Quote from: Buddyboy on February 15, 2013, 01:52:49 AM
... I've got the two shafts sliding freely now but it seems like if it slides the length of the slot in the lower shaft that the upper gear no longer has another gear to contact...

No. The shafts slide very, very little. Like, almost none. Like 0.1 mm. All gears should always be in mesh at all times. If they aren't, something else is wrong.

There is no distinct way to tell when it shifts. Try this: Assemble the reel. Tighten the star drag. Loosen the shift knob. Try the reel, cranking with a little bit of thumb pressure on the spool. What you'll see is low gear.

Now tighten the shift knob a bit, and remove thumb from spool. That is high gear.

...And that can be varied, depending on how tight the shift knob is, and how hard your thumb is.

I gotta go.

.

Robert I was at a garage sale and saw this guy there who always seems to be at the best ones before me scoring about 30 vintage Doors, the who Hendrix  albums for $1 each which was gutting to say the least. When I asked him if he had found any reels that morning we went out to his van and he had a load of worn out junk and the almost mint  abu 2 speed which I bought for $25, I didn't even realise it was a two speed until I got it home. I sold it to an enthusiast who will appreciate it more than I ever will.

Robert,

That was interesting.  I enjoyed reading the Abu section. Here's a question for you - if the shafts are only supposed to slide a couple of millimeters, why is the groove almost an inch long? I understand that the shafts should only move far enough to keep the proper gears in contact. But why would they make that slot so long?

Thanks

Quote from: Buddyboy on February 20, 2013, 01:12:54 AM

...if the shafts are only supposed to slide a couple of millimeters...

Again, no- Not a couple of millimeters. More like a couple of tenths of millimeters.

Quote from: Buddyboy on February 20, 2013, 01:12:54 AM
...why is the groove almost an inch long?

Idunno. Really.

Quote from: Buddyboy on February 20, 2013, 01:12:54 AM
...the shafts should only move far enough to keep the proper gears in contact.

Yes, but not just the proper gears. All gears should always be in mesh, all the time.

Really, that sentence should say, "..the shafts should only move far enough to keep the proper drag washers in contact."

Sorry if that doesn't help you much. I don't know what to add, except to repeat what KenD said a while back: keep an eye on those brass spacers 20717 (wide one) and 20716 (thinner one). If those go on in the wrong way or order, things don't work properly.

Just wondering something though... part number 20712, does yours look like thi diagram? All in one piece, flat washer swaged to the brass shaft? And how did you get the pin out?

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/DrRob101/bild_zps8a49a7bb.jpg)

Thanks for the explaination Dr.  Maybe that is why I went into electronics and not mechanical engineering.

Thx. Dr. Rob.. That connecting pin can be likened to an eclip mocking the person, if removed incorrectly. I lost a few over time till I figured out the problem. When the pin is in the reel for years, it wants to get friction-stuck into position, and can literally fly away if pry pressure to remove is too much.  

I used to use a bent fishhook to remove, but now I use a little screwdriver from the dollar store set, bent over at the very tip, like a baby pry bar. I can now send it down the inner driveshaft, feel about for the pin and gently bunt it out.

My next project is to determine the differences between the two variances of the main gears, one of the side gears, and the main driveshaft. I have those coming in.

http://tinyurl.com/ack3r8b

http://tinyurl.com/akj8wao

Dr. Rob,

You asked how I got the pin out.  I tapped on the opposite side with a screw driver handle until it fell out. I've tried the brass spacers on either side of the bearing flipped both ways and it doesn't seem to matter.  I've tried adding a couple more brass shims under the star wheel also. I've cleaned all the metal surfaces and tried new washers. Still can't get the drag to grab.  It seems like something is preventing the outer brass shaft to move enough to compress the drag washers.

Appreciate the advice.

Hmm... how peculiar.

Offhand, i really don't know. The gizmo itself is really so simple that i can't imagine what isn't working. Mine have worked so well that i haven't had any reason to wonder about it.

I don't have time for this right now; i'll have to look at it later tonight.

In the meantime, maybe KenD has an idea..? Anybody?

.

Are your drag washers too thin?  I first tried with carbontex drag washers between the upper and lower plates and I had the same problem. Then I switched to the thicker HT-100s and they seem to be working fine now.

Hmm, yeah... Bryan might be on to something there. I seem to recall talking about this once before, which reminded me of a post maybe six years ago at another forum. Here is what I wrote then:


"There are a total of four drag washers involved. Two of them (3902 and 20171) are really only used to control the shift function and thusly not susceptible to as much wear. The others (15094 and 20172) are the actual drag washers and can be changed without undue difficulty. The small stainless pin need not be removed.

Sizes:

3902 = 15.5 x 8 x 0.5 mm, of phenolic laminate. Could be max 17 OD.
20171 = 18 x 9.2 x 0.8 mm, of leather.
15094 = 26.5 x 12 x 0.8 mm, of leather
20172 = 26 x 14 x 0.8 mm, of leather

Note, drag washers 15094 and 20172 could allow a thickness of approximately +1 mm total. That is, they could be say 1.0 or 1.25 mm thick each; it shouldn't matter. "

Maybe there is something to it. Will have to look later.

.

Quote from: Buddyboy on February 20, 2013, 01:12:54 AM
Robert,

That was interesting.  I enjoyed reading the Abu section. Here's a question for you - if the shafts are only supposed to slide a couple of millimeters, why is the groove almost an inch long? I understand that the shafts should only move far enough to keep the proper gears in contact. But why would they make that slot so long?

Thanks

Hi. What groove is an inch long? Do you mean that milled slot where the little chrome pin fits? That groove is barely 5/16's. if memory serves.  When the pin is in, things barely move. The machines that made the parts would have to have clearances to get the tooling in and out. As Dr. Rob says, my 2 speeds have never failed, either, so yours is an enigma. Reading the rest of the posts, I have never altered the drag stack, and it sounds as tho you have, then that may be it as Bryan indicates, and Dr. Rob is on the verge of concurrence.  :)

Sorry for delay. So, i looked. Yes, there is something to what Bryan says. But, the difference in thickness of the drag washers needs to be very large for it to actually cause the drag to nonfunction.

That is, the new drag washers, if they've been replaced, need to be at least half as thick as the originals, for the drag to stop working. This i know because i tried removing both of the drag washers one at a time, and the silly thing still works.

(This is a result of the wider brass spacer eventually bottoming out on a step on the outer shaft. This could of course be rectified by adding a washer or something, but more wisely by adding a drag washer, or using thicker ones.)

So, summarily, any drag washers between 0.4 and 1.3 mm thick ought to work. With 0.8 mm being ideal.

And that was that...

.

PS: One inch slot? I have no idea.  

EDIT AND ADDENDUM, 3½ YEARS LATER:
So I was just flying around the internet, when I happened to see this... holy smokes; the OP Buddyboy was right. There is a very long slot in that part. Maybe there was a change at some point? Still dunno why it would be so long though. Can't compare it to my reel, since the pin is stuck in mine. Well, just wanted to correct that wrong.

Quote from: Bryan Young on February 14, 2013, 02:08:44 AM
... I wish I had clear sideplates.

Quote from: Robert Janssen
I've spent an hour looking for a picture of an Ambassadeur with clear sideplates i made a few years ago. Couldn't find it. Too bad. Next time.

Well, here we go... Not a 6500, but close enough. Looks like i didn't finish it, though. Remind me to do that someday.

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/DrRob101/c74545e4-681f-451a-b0ec-b0b54077931d_zps5c043486.jpg) (http://s35.photobucket.com/user/DrRob101/media/c74545e4-681f-451a-b0ec-b0b54077931d_zps5c043486.jpg.html)

Never seen this post before...... Wow Doc.  ;)

I wonder if buddy boy ever figured it out.
Between you and KenD, the help doesn't get any better.  ;)

Oh, thanks. Glad you like it.

Of course i still haven't finished it. Now i've been reminded though...

.

Sorry Robert, but you are reminded again!  I love reading your posts, and anxiously await your book.   ;D

I actually have one of these too.  I at one time thought it would be the ideal reel for turning the head of bigger Lingcod as they try to dive back to the bottom.  Have any thoughts?  I'd hate to abuse it.

I loaded it with 20lb Maxima, put it on a shelf and never did try it. But my fascination with this reel goes on.

Ran

Well I got my hands on one that the drag didnt work. Same symptoms as the others in this post.

The driveshaft was not moving. After carefully getting the parts to move and adding 1mm Carbontex drag washers to the main drag only its all good. One 12x26x1mm and one 14x26x1mm. I didnt change the small washers in the gear assembly.

This was my first one of this 6500C3 2 speed. I have done the other larger reels.

Thank you to the tutorials..!!

Keith