This may be old news to many of you DIY rod builders but while undertaking my winter rod building endeavor I discovered a little trick I thought I would share. This came about because I wrap all my tips behind the tiptop. I always apply two coats of finish over all my wraps. This fix will work anywhere else you use epoxy finish, though.
I'm not sure why but it seems that even though the rod is level while rotating in my rod dryer and removing any excess epoxy after application I end up getting a bulge or bubble, especially after the second coat, somewhere on the tiptop wrap. I tried a couple different fixes like shaving off the excess with a razor blade and either wiping over the dull shaved area with acetone or denatured alcohol. After they dried both still left the area dull. I don't use throwaway brushes to apply my epoxy. I have a nice little angled Taklon brush I use and clean it, first in a little acetone and second in a little lacquer thinner, after each use. The acetone in that jar starts to become thick after a couple of soaks. I wondered if dipping the brush in that thick acetone/thin epoxy combo and applying it on the dull area might work better, and voil'a. There is no buildup to rotate so it can just stand vertical and when it dries you can't tell it had ever been touched.
My second trick, for those of you like me that use regular nylon thread and want to retain those bright vibrant colors, is a cheap homemade color preserver. In this day and age almost everyone of us DIYs has a little water based urethane around the house. A mixture of 60% water base urethane and 40% distilled water makes a fantastic, and cheap, color preserver that will never fade or turn yellow under the epoxy finish. The addition of 40% distilled water allows the mix to soak deep into the threads, protecting the deeper portion of the thread and also binding them together well. Another really nice thing about this concoction is that it dries quickly so it is easy to give your wraps three or four coats in one day and lay on the first coat of finish the next day. I have given wraps one coat the first evening, added two more coats the next morning & noon and applied epoxy that evening, all with great results. If you have a tightly sealed container it will last forever. I made a little batch in a tiny plastic 3/4 oz Tone's spice jar 5 years ago and it's still just like I made it. I've built 15 rods with it and still have 2/3 of the jar left. That batch will probably last me the rest of my life. ;)
Quote from: Midway Tommy on March 02, 2020, 09:19:10 PM
..........little water based urethane around the house. A mixture of 60% water base urethane and 40% distilled water makes a fantastic, and cheap, color preserver that will never fade or turn yellow under the epoxy finish.
tommy, thanks for the tip.
I read somewhere else about the DIY color preserver with water based urethane, the formula was 50% urethane and 50% DNA, I made some tests versus the regular Flexcoat CP and the problem I saw with that special sauce was that once you add the urethane to a light colored thread it became darker which is normal but even after it got dry the thread never returned to the original light color, with the regular CP as flexcoat the thread gets darker but returns to their original color, so I never used that DIY CP formula.
I dont know how different would be changing DNA and destiled water on the formular with the urethane, all i know that if you use only 100% urethame on regular nylon will make the color darker and it will stay like that.
Tommy here is a link to a thread that hits some of what your saying. https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=30519.0 Xylenol doesnt evaporate any where near as fast as other stuff.
Also I dont have the love affair with D2 finish that others do. It sets off to quick. I can apply finish to 3-4 rods from a single mix with other epoxies. I have not been quick enough to do this with D2. Any time your finish starts to fire off & stiffen & loses a bit of it's flow you run the high risk of not having a smooth even surface.
Finish needs to be used while it's in it's most liquid state for the easiest & best results. This saves time & gives best results. You can add heat but this also can be problematic it causes the finish to flow but it will set up real quick. This will happen with D2 more than others I have used. I also don't like High Build for guide wraps. Only using it for decorative butt wraps
What works for me may not do as well for others. With finish, humidity & temp have a very profound effect on the working qualities of any finish some more than others... Jeff
Quotethe formula was 50% urethane and 50% DNA,
The problem with that mix is the alcohol evaporates too fast and all you end up with is urethane @ 100%. 60-40 with distilled water thins it permanently and allows for a little longer soak in to dry ratio. It will turn the threads a little darker initially but they go right back to original within a couple of hours after it's dry. I'll post pic in a day or so of a light colored wrap I did a couple of weeks or so ago so you can see how it turned out.
Quote from: Rivverrat on March 02, 2020, 09:48:58 PM
Tommy here is a link to a thread that hits some of what your saying. https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=30519.0 Xylenol doesnt evaporate any where near as fast as other stuff.
Also I dont have the love affair with D2 finish that others do. It sets off to quick. I can apply finish to 3-4 rods from a single mix with other epoxies. I have not been quick enough to do this with D2. Any time your finish starts to fire off & stiffen & loses a bit of it's flow you run the high risk of not having a smooth even surface.
Finish needs to be used while it's in it's most liquid state for the easiest & best results. This saves time & gives You can add heat but this also can be problematic it causes the finish to flow but it will set up real quick. This will happen with D2 more than others I have used. I also don't like High Build for guide wraps. Only using it for decorative butt wraps
What works for me may not do as well for others. With finish, humidity & temp have a very profound effect on the working qualities of any finish some more than others... Jeff
Jeff, I think your brushes are going to catch the "Virus"! :D
I use
Envirotex Lite (https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/8dde89c9-7a7b-45b9-9ca9-14bff79efa8f_1.5e8202d00913753373e55a1551033412.jpeg?odnWidth=undefined&odnHeight=undefined&odnBg=ffffff) for my finish. It's less expensive, lasts, seemingly, forever (my 8 oz each of resin & hardener is over 10 years old and works as new) and, to me at least, provides a much nicer & uniform finish than Flex Coat. To get a longer working time I put the bottles next to the outside wall (in the winter) & mix it cold. Room temp is about 65 F with constant year round 50-60% humidity. I mix 5 ml each, i.e. 10 ml, and pour it out onto a piece of aluminum foil in a little pot pie pan. After the extra epoxy sets up I'll flip it over & use the back side for another mix, then throw it away. 10 ml will do about 3 6'-6" rods but I can't work that fast. Then, after the epoxy's applied, I turn an electric heater on & bring the room to about 75 or 80 for 3 or 4 hours to speed up setting up.
Quote from: Midway Tommy on March 02, 2020, 11:31:44 PM
Jeff, I think your brushes are going to catch the "Virus"! :D
I'm sure my brushes have been exposed to all manner of viral nastiness. ;D Tommy I've not heard of or used that finish before. But I will give a try. Thanks for the link... Jeff
Quote from: Midway Tommy on March 02, 2020, 11:31:44 PM
Quotethe formula was 50% urethane and 50% DNA,
The problem with that mix is the alcohol evaporates too fast and all you end up with is urethane @ 100%. 60-40 with distilled water thins it permanently and allows for a little longer soak in to dry ratio.
that makes a lot of sense !!
I will try that up pretty soon.
thanks Tommy
Quote from: Rivverrat on March 02, 2020, 09:48:58 PM
Also I dont have the love affair with D2 finish that others do. It sets off to quick. I can apply finish to 3-4 rods from a single mix with other epoxies. I have not been quick enough to do this with D2. Any time your finish starts to fire off & stiffen & loses a bit of it's flow you run the high risk of not having a smooth even surface.
... Jeff
so, amigo, can you tell me whats your choise of epoxy finish ?
I really like D2, but really wish it has more pot life, I've used LS supreme and it has long pot life but I dont know why in my zone never gets as solid as D2 or flexcoat even after dry for weeks.
Alex, I use old Flex Coat Lite. If D2 works for you stay with it. But ya the pot life on it is why I don't get along with it. Some like Jon love it & works for them just fine. When I have several rods I like to wrap several then do the finish coat on several rods at one time. Hard for me to do this with D2... Jeff
Here are a few examples of rods I have been working on. All have had the 60/40 color preserver treatment to the threads. I also included some spools of the original thread so you can see how well the color preserver works. The rod on the right has 3 coats, only, of my 60/40 color preserver brew. It is now ready for finish. The 4 rods on the left all had 3 coats of preserver and 2 coats of Envirotex Lite. I'm pretty happy with the way they turned out. The diamond wrap on the right rod was my third attempt at diamond wraps. Covering the ends is kind of a slow process & pain in the rear. Keeping each wind tight and not over-wrapping backwards is a tedious process. I like strong tension on my thread and it doesn't slide sideways very well on the thread below if there's much space in between. ::) The first 2 diamonds turned out really nice, also, and I'm working on a 4th one right now. I'll post some photos of all of them when I complete this last rod.
RE Edit: The light thread on the right rod is Gun Metal, not white...... and......another trick I learned before I got my resin/hardener calculated perfectly is that if you didn't get an exact mix and your finish turns out a little tacky after 24 or 48 hours you can wipe them down with a liberal denatured alcohol wipe and the surface will be hard the next day.
Tommy, looks like you have a very nice rack of lite weight spinning rods there. I'll bet you love using them every time your out being that you made them. I see a St. Croix. Just so you & others know St. Croix blanks are still available through Rod Geeks but no longer through St. Croix... Jeff
Quote from: Rivverrat on March 03, 2020, 04:54:57 AM
Tommy, looks like you have a very nice rack of lite weight spinning rods there. I'll bet you love using them every time your out being that you made them. I see a St. Croix. Just so you & others know St. Croix blanks are still available through Rod Geeks but no longer through St. Croix... Jeff
Thank you, Sir! Yes I do enjoy fishing my own builds. I was pretty lucky when I snatched onto that St Croix SC III Avid blank. I have a couple of Legend Elite builds that I picked up years ago when Cabela's sold St. Croix blanks. They are so sensitive that sometimes I can feel my weight dragging over road gravel sized pebbles. Anyway, Cabela's quit selling rod blanks a long time ago but a few years back I stopped in at our local Cabela's and low and behold they had two, still in the plastic shipping socks, 7'-0" medium fast 10-17# SC III Avid blanks in barrel in the Bargain Cave. I made the manager an offer of $45, I was thinking each, but he accepted the offer and he priced it out for both! :o ;D I smiled all the way home. The other rod I'm working on now is the second of those blanks. I did, though, cut them down off the butt end to 6'-8" because I don't like rods that long.
Quote from: Rivverrat on March 03, 2020, 04:54:57 AM
St. Croix blanks are still available through Rod Geeks
Yeah, but they don't have much selection and I believe the price has gone up.
-steve
Steve, I've been meaning to call them about that. But ya the number of blanks they list is small... Jeff
Quote from: Midway Tommy on March 03, 2020, 07:04:02 AM
............and he priced it out for both! :o ;D I smiled all the way home. ...
I know that feeling !! ;D ;D
@ Jeff, I just bought a supply of D2 for several rods with my normal rods jobd I have that will last me for months, so, no hurry to change the brand of epoxy finish I was just checking what other guys use, I actually have 8oz of flexcoat lite that I use on small guide repairs when I restore or customize a rod I use D2, there is a "well known" guy in the rodbuilding industry, Billy Vivona that is using a mix of two different brands of finish to have the best of both brands, finish, clear and long pot life, I really never knew which are the w brands of epoxy he is mixing together and whats the ratio but hear that for him is working just right.
Alex, I'll be talking with Billy V. I'll ask him... Jeff
Quote from: steelfish on March 03, 2020, 05:45:22 PM
Billy Vivona that is using a mix of two different brands of finish to have the best of both brands, finish, clear and long pot life, I really never knew which are the w brands of epoxy he is mixing together and whats the ratio but hear that for him is working just right.
I tried to do that Alex with very bad results. He claimed mixing Thread master with pro coat, equal amounts, of each would make a hard finish (thread master) with an easy flow and less bubbles (pro coat). In theory it worked well. Went on nice and was very hard. Problem was on the 3 rods I tried this on they were returned because of cracking in the finish. This occurred on the butt wraps of the 3 rods. It looked like the rod was broken, a deep crack around the diameter all the way down to the threads. Could of been something I did wrong but it was only on the rods I mixed the finish on. Never had that problem before or after. Just putting this out to save you some time and embarrassment .
Dave
That's the trouble with a very hard finish. With the hardness comes brittleness. Something very flexible like a fishing rod needs some elasticity in the finish to keep it from cracking.
That's also how it was in the days of varnish; before epoxy. Spar varnish had more oil than regular varnish to give it some elasticity and keep it from cracking when the spar (a boat mast or yard) bent in the wind. Today, "spar varnish" has lost its meaning and just means a varnish that can be used outdoors and may, or may not, have extra elasticity.
-steve
Quote from: droppedit on March 04, 2020, 02:38:35 PM
I tried to do that Alex with very bad results. He claimed mixing Thread master with pro wrap, equal amounts, of each would make a hard finish (thread master) with an easy flow and less bubbles (pro wrap). In theory it worked well. Went on nice and was very hard. Problem was on the 3 rods I tried this on they were returned because of cracking in the finish. This occurred on the butt wraps of the 3 rods. It looked like the rod was broken, a deep crack around the diameter all the way down to the threads. Could of been something I did wrong but it was only on the rods I mixed the finish on. Never had that problem before or after. Just putting this out to save you some time and embarrassment .
Dave
thanks for the headsup Dave,
I did a small mix of 50-50 of D2 and LS supreme but only tested it on some broken rods I had, didnt liked the results pretty sure the chemical formulas on each epoxy brand didnt liked each other, cuz the finish never got completely hard, it was kind of tacky and I never had the intention to search for the perfect ratio to mix the two finish, so I opted to better use my different epoxy finish without mixing them.
in my pretty low rod jobs I currently have, I dont have a problem making two batch of epoxy to made a whole rod, it just takes another 4 minutes to mix and apply but sometimes I had to stop as soon as the finish started to felt like honey (or before that) and only one guide was missing to coat :-\
Dave , thanks for your reply. Sorry you had this experience. What follows is nothing more than just my thoughts from the short time I've been doing this. Epoxy used for attaching grips, reel seats & epoxy used for finish are the foundation of any rod build. It can have a big impact on the longevity of a rod build.
I personally wouldn't change my epoxy used for attaching grips, reel seats or for finish until I have set the new to me finish out in the sun, under a load for at least 3 months (preferably longer) straight. My thought is people may be depending on my rod on a trip that cost thousands of dollars don't need or want a failure.
Also Billy V. has for some time now chosen not to grind & reprofile the feet on his guides. This is in no way a negative against Billy he is one of the best on a rod lathe. He has chose not to because of cracks allowing salt water in & getting to the unprotected guide feet with finish ground off.
My response is, if you don't fit your guide feet by grinding to a thinner profile the likelihood cracking will happen goes up greatly. Some may say, dammed if you do dammed if you don't. I've dealt with this in my earlier builds & am confident with end result. Never heard of any cracking issues with Jon V's rods & those from other builders... Jeff
Quote from: Rivverrat on March 04, 2020, 07:57:57 PM
Dave , thanks for your reply. Sorry you had this experience. What follows is nothing more than just my thoughts from the short time I've been doing this. Epoxy used for attaching grips, reel seats & epoxy used for finish are the foundation of any rod build. It can have a big impact on the longevity of a rod build.
I personally wouldn't change my epoxy used for attaching grips, reel seats or for finish until I have set the new to me finish out in the sun, under a load for at least 3 months (preferably longer) straight. My thought is people may be depending on my rod on a trip that cost thousands of dollars don't need or want a failure.
Also Billy V. has for some time now chosen not to grind & reprofile the feet on his guides. This is in no way a negative against Billy he is one of the best on a rod lathe. He has chose not to because of cracks allowing salt water in & getting to the unprotected guide feet with finish ground off.
My response is, if you don't fit your guide feet by grinding to a thinner profile the likelihood cracking will happen goes up greatly. Some may say, dammed if you do dammed if you don't. I've dealt with this in my earlier builds & am confident with end result. Never heard of any cracking issues with Jon V's rods & those from other builders... Jeff
I only grind the taper at the front of the foot so that the thread goes up over it easier without leaving an opening or overlap. I never grind the sides except where I've adjusted the front taper. I want that wider flared area there to keep the guide foot from moving or sliding forward under the thread. I haven't built a ton of rods, maybe 10 or 12 before this group, but most of those are 15 to 25 years old and I've never had a wrap crack, yet. :)
Tommy with lighter gear we can see a lot of forgiveness not that you did anything wrong. Also Please Tommy take nothing I'm saying at any time to being directed at you or any one in particular regarding your rod builds. The way you've chosen has most obviously worked well for you. Your rods in the pic are pleasing to look at, a quick glance reveals "They Aint Off No Shelf".
I'm approaching somewhere close to 40 rods built. The people I look to in this business have built 100's some probably have a few thousand rods or more. I have to say the best, most effective things / situations at moving me forward, what ever little bit that maybe, hasn't been any knowledge gained talking with these people but rather it has been my mistakes. Some of them costly. The first 8 rods I did for others came back.
I went out & picked up 3 of them the other 5 I paid to have shipped back. 8' & 9' rods, not cheap to ship. I realized I had made a mistake. At the time not knowing much about what I was doing. After this I really questioned myself about this rod building thing.
Not long after this I realized during final testing the reel seat on a member here's rod was not lined up with the spine. While cutting the reel seat off, the stand I had the rod mounted in collapsed a couple of inches & stopped abruptly, plunging the blade into the blank.
During this time, I was texting him pics of the procedure involved in cutting the reel seat off. (Won t Do That Again) After the little mishap I refused to look at the blank & texted all was well. Only later after forcing myself to look I let him know what had happened & of course I replaced the blank. If you fail to find humor with your self & life with this sort of stuff, insanity may be a 1/2 step away.
I find now after a little time the frustration & mistakes to be much fewer & I'm actually starting to like my own work & enjoy it more every time I sit at the lathe.
I didn't even say what I set out say I guess I even forgot why I posted. Oh man I gotta hit the rack & die a bit... Jeff
Good looking rod builds Tommy!
Quote from: Midway Tommy on March 03, 2020, 07:04:02 AM
[.....but a few years back I stopped in at our local Cabela's and low and behold they had two, still in the plastic shipping socks, 7'-0" medium fast 10-17# SC III Avid blanks in barrel in the Bargain Cave.
Bautiful rod that St croix avid you have there TOmmy
I have a old school UL Fenwick eagle graphite rod that a local friend gave me cuz he used it in USA on FW but have been sitting on his garage for the last 10 years, he never wanted to use it on saltwater, I was thinking to rewrap it with new and lighter quality fuji guides but I dont know if I will ever use it in SW too ;D ;D so, meanwhile it just sits in my rod rack.
I have some nice light 10ft rods for SW that cast 1/4 to 3/4 oz lures and those are really fun to fith 1# spotted bay bass or a 3# trigger.
I dont want to hijack the thread but I think tommy would like to see this UL rod after seeing what he had built.
Thanks for the compliments, guys! I ain't no Pro but I try my best to build something sensitive with quality & decent looking. I know sometimes I'll make wraps a little long to get some added coloring, but I try not to go overboard and get too gaudy. ::)
Jeff, you're right, for the type of fishing I do, freshwater only & usually just lake fishing, tolerances can be a lot more forgiving. All my builds run from 2-6# ULs up to these two 10-17# Avids. The heaviest rod I own is an early '80s 10-25# Excalibur. The heaviest jigs I'll use, which is rarely, are 3/8 oz. Generally just 1/4 oz on a 6-12# medium light extra fast action rod. The same goes for live bait rigging. A 1/2 oz bullet/worm weight on a 5' Lindy type live bait rig is as far as I'll usually go. If I have to go over 25' deep I might go up to 3/4 oz on a 8-17# rod, but that's about it. I don't do a lot of plug casting, we call LMB "Green Carp" in my fishing circles. :D
It's nice using cork slip ring grips. Not only is it really easy to find the reel balance sweet spot, I don't have to worry about getting the reel seat perfectly lined up with the tip once I find the spline & install the tip.
Alex, those old Fenwick rods still look cool & work great! Thanks for giving us a peek!
Tommy, before I went off on a tangent last night from lack of sleep . This was what I was wanting to say. Our fresh water rods do not see any where near the stress rods for Saltwater will see once we get above 50 lb. line.
I seriously doubt you can walk in to a Bass Pro in the mid west & find a rod on the shelf the will effectively fish 60 line at all angles a rod may be used at. With fresh water rods we seldom see finish crack at the feet & this is achieved using single wrapped guides. I found initially I needed to apply more attention to details on salt water builds. It now has just become the way I do things. I'm still learning, always will be & hope to some day do this full time... Jeff
Vinegar works well for cleaning epoxy brushes. Rinse in a small amount of fresh vinegar several times, rinse with hot water and if you are really worried finish off with some waterless hand cleaner or liquid dishwashing soap with another rinse. I've used this on boatbuilding epoxy for years, should work on rod building stuff.