I was trouble shooting on an old Bantam Mag 250sg to find out why it's reeling rough and discovered the post that the drive shaft turns on is a bit loose in the set plate. The post has a slight wobble and will partially turn (about a quarter of the way around).
I'm hoping this is fixable and would appreciate any help with it.
Uh oh. About all you can do is try to peen it back down and hope it is straight and square when you finish. I would see if the shoulder at the bottom is wide enough to be supported on the jaws of a vice to help avoid bending the shaft. Then whack the back side with a wide flat-end punch and hammer. Then polish down the nicks the vice jaws made on the shoulder. It's a tough one. Good luck with it.
-steve
This is not looking good. I don't think it'll work on my bench vice; several other posts and raised area close by. I'd cause more damage than good. I'm wondering if cutting into it from the back side and soldering it might work.
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Solder would be a waste of time, it's much to soft. Even brazing wouldn't be strong enough. Time to get a new or good used bridge.
There are no replacement parts so it's either fix it or toss it. I'd still try peening it from the back side first. It's not usable now so you have nothing to loose.
-steve
One thing I have had success with is:
Drilling from the backside of the plate -- a 1/8" hole -- find an appropriate SS machine screw with a large, flat head.
Tap threads into the hole to match the screw -- insert the screw tightly using Loctite -- let it sit for 24 hours, then grind the head down as much as possible for clearance while maintaining holding integrity.
After you have ground the head down, and cleaned the plate again -- dry it with a blow dryer -- and cover the head of the screw and surrounding ajacent surface area with a coating of Tac-Glue. Let dry for about another day.
Wash it off -- lube it up -- and hope it is square.
If the backside currently has a peened over rivet attachment point -- grind that off to slightly below flat grade -- before drilling and tapping threads. This will allow more clearance -- while also pulling the post towards the screw. Use a drill press vise -- wood, rubber, or friction tape faced -- and a drill press set at low speed.
Or look for a donor reel.
Like Steve sez -- Peening may work -- the risk is in doing worse damage.
Best,
Fred
Thanks guys for your thoughts and ideas. Being new at reel work, I have to ask --what is the bridge, as RowdyW mentioned? Is that referring to the set plate in this case? I'm considering a new used set plate, which is probably going to be my best option.
I'm going to at least try to repair the problem for the experience... and to see if I can do it. As Steve said, I've got nothing to lose. The worse case scenario is I'll end up with a parts reel (since I've got two more identical models that I've rebuilt, upgraded and use regularly).
Fred, your idea sounds like the direction I'd prefer to take, although I'm currently without a drill press and don't have a drill press vice or any taps. I'd have to do it by hand.
Some ideas I'm thinking about: using a dremel on the backside of the set plate, to cut through the bottom of the post and into the set plate and inserting a piece of stainless steel to keep the post from turning. How to keep it in place is the question --would a little solder do it? Is there an adhesive that would do it? Would Loctite 271 be of use?
Also, I have some hard stainless steel hooks and thought about snipping off the point of one and hammering it in as a wedge.
Any opinions on the viability of those ideas?
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A few tweeks I can think of if you want to persevere, ie if you have nothing to lose.
If you have a nearby engineering shop they may have the wherewithall to press this for you.
You would need a high tensile metal tube to fit over the shaft and rest on the flange on the bottom of the shaft. A deep impact socket of the appropriate size may be suitable? A lathe "dead centre" or something turned to fit; or the right shape to fit into that recess in the bottom of the shaft. Set up in a hydraulic shop press you should be able to swage that shaft back into the backplate (or a good whack with a heavy hammer perhaps). I suspect that is how it is assembled in the first place.
A less precise option (if you can find that tube to fit over the shaft and set it solidly up in a vice) is to use a small punch to peen/punch the backplate in a tight circle around the bottom of the shaft where you have indicated with that scribe. This would tighten the backplate around the shaft, but may move the shaft if you aren't careful. You would need to go side to side, evenly etc to prevent the shaft from tilting one way or another as it is tightening. A hollow punch slightly larger than the bottom of that shaft might also displace enough metal on the backplate to tighten evenly.
cheers
Steve
ReelClean, you're probably a much more technical minded person than me, and I think I'm sort of following you on most, or at least some, of what you're saying. But it's giving me an idea that might be sort of what you have in mind...
If I take the drive shaft and slide it down onto that shaft post, and find a steel ball bearing of an affective size to place under the bottom of the shaft post --and then whack the top of the shaft post, that may do the job. I'd need several sizes of ball bearings to choose from and I'm not clear on what size might work best. Where does one buy several ball bearings in various sizes?
Quote from: wfjord on May 19, 2017, 02:14:04 AM
ReelClean, you're probably a much more technical minded person than me, and I think I'm sort of following you on most, or at least some, of what you're saying. But it's giving me an idea that might be sort of what you have in mind...
If I take the drive shaft and slide it down onto that shaft post, and find a steel ball bearing of an affective size to place under the bottom of the shaft post --and then whack the top of the shaft post, that may do the job. I'd need several sizes of ball bearings to choose from and I'm not clear on what size might work best. Where does one buy several ball bearings in various sizes?
I would be concerned about tweaking the shaft as it is one and the same material so it could bend anywhere, including somewhere you don't want, when struck unsupported by the tube on the flange. If you are going to whack the shaft I would be looking at trying to peen or spike the backplate as I suspect it is a softer metal and would yield before the shaft (maybe, you hope!).
The bridge is that brass plate that holds all the parts, including the drive shaft.
That is not what I was expecting to see on the back side. The 100's have a flattened rivet-like head. There is not much to peen there but it has a ready-made hole for a screw like Fred described.
-steve
That hole in the bottom is only a couple or so millimeters deep, but a good start for drilling. I think that's going to be the best route.
On the upper and lower side of the end of that shaft butt, there are two very small holes in the plate, barely visible and partially covered by the butt of the shaft. That gave me the idea of trying to drive a little wedge or two up into it.
I wonder if that was a two-part rivet and the bottom (a button with a post) fell off?
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on May 19, 2017, 08:32:21 PM
I wonder if that was a two-part rivet and the bottom (a button with a post) fell off?
-steve
Steve, I don't think so. I checked my other two BMP 250SGs and they all look the same on the bottom.
Quote from: MarkT on May 19, 2017, 02:31:11 AM
The bridge is that brass plate that holds all the parts, including the drive shaft.
Thanks, I sorta suspected that, but usually see it listed as the set plate in various schematics.
In this particular case it seems to be plated aluminum or some other relatively soft metal.
Do you think that when they pressed it on at the factory a tapered punch-like thing was driven into the hole to expand the base of the shaft? The way it is countersunk into the aluminum plate, there isn't much aluminum plate left to grab on to.
-steve
If it were me, I would see if I could get 2 or 3 SS self-tapper screws with a 1/8" thread OD -- 1/4" long with a pan head.
Fasten the plate securely in a wood-faced vise -- tight but not to the point of distorting the plate.
Hand drill with a variable speed drill, 1/8" sharp bit, a hole 3/8" -- steady, firm, slowly, and squarely. Let the bit do the work -- keep it square and straight -- slow speed.
Blow out the filings -- then fasten the screw in place until the head is flat on the plate. If you overtighten it -- the head will snap off -- then you are dead. So just snug it up. Back it out, clean up the hole again -- couple drops of the strong Loctite -- reinsert another new screw -- should be good to go after drying.
This is a "poor man's method" of fastening -- which I have used successfully many times.
A 1/8" tap and a T-bar could also be purchased fairly cheaply -- in this case, match the threads on the tap to a machine screw of SS.
Just my thoughts...
Best,
Fred
Quote from: foakes on May 20, 2017, 03:55:00 PM
If it were me, I would see if I could get 2 or 3 SS self-tapper screws with a 1/8" thread OD -- 1/4" long with a pan head.
Fasten the plate securely in a wood-faced vise -- tight but not to the point of distorting the plate.
Hand drill with a variable speed drill, 1/8" sharp bit, a hole 3/8" -- steady, firm, slowly, and squarely. Let the bit do the work -- keep it square and straight -- slow speed.
Blow out the filings -- then fasten the screw in place until the head is flat on the plate. If you overtighten it -- the head will snap off -- then you are dead. So just snug it up. Back it out, clean up the hole again -- couple drops of the strong Loctite -- reinsert another new screw -- should be good to go after drying.
This is a "poor man's method" of fastening -- which I have used successfully many times.
A 1/8" tap and a T-bar could also be purchased fairly cheaply -- in this case, match the threads on the tap to a machine screw of SS.
Just my thoughts...
Best,
Fred
Fred --Thank you! I was just wondering about the details of those very points you explained there! Fortunately I have a wood-faced vice. I hadn't made my trip to the hardware store yet until I got the details worked out. Hope to do that today. Will report on my progress or success...
Quote from: oc1 on May 20, 2017, 07:28:39 AM
Do you think that when they pressed it on at the factory a tapered punch-like thing was driven into the hole to expand the base of the shaft? The way it is countersunk into the aluminum plate, there isn't much aluminum plate left to grab on to.
-steve
Steve, that would be my guess. The base of the shaft on all three of the 250SGs I have look the same with a rounded indention in the center where I assume the tip of the punch went in and the excess grounded off flat. Perhaps they had slightly pre-recessed the area of the plate around the shaft hole before punching it to make it look cleaner. I'd think the thinner plate thickness there might increase the chance of the post coming loose if it got bumped or, uh...
in this case, when I acquired the reel and opened it up it looked pretty bad inside and the drive shaft wouldn't come off the shaft post. Took a lot of time and effort to remove it from the post, so there's a decent chance I caused the problem at hand. I probably should've sought advice here before doing that. Hindsight...
I did get it cleaned up and lubed before discovering the problem and it's otherwise a really nice casting old Bantam.
Well, Lowes had none of the hardware I needed. Looks like I'll have to wait until I can get to an Ace or True Value store next week.
After watching and reading you reels problem, I am willing to offer my FREE services. :o Send the bridge to me and i,ll do my best to fix it. As I have the time and tools ..... I will learn something and what do you have to lose? Postage would be less than a drill, tap, vice, etc.
pm. me a reply ok? Ive caught and rolled many a steelhead with a Bantam. :-*
Thanks, Gstours, for your kind and generous offer, and your suggestions and info in our PM conversations.
And thank you, Fred, for your suggestions and info. I was thinking that would be the route to take.
For better or worse, here's an update on the status of my bridge plate drive post project.
I checked out several local hardware stores (with bridge plate in hand). This will require a smaller screw than I thought. As it turns out, the flat head stainless steel machine screws that were small enough to do the job had a head that was too small to cover the area necessary to anchor the shaft post. Regarding ss sheet metal screws, no tap was available and any screws that were self tapping were way too big.
I encountered a guy browsing the bolt & screw aisle in the hardware store who worked in a machine shop and got his thoughts on the project. He said I'd strip the head and/or threads of any stainless steel screws that small trying to screw them into a hole drilled into hardened stainless steel.
He recommended I either get the bottom of the post spot-welded or use some JB Weld on it. Claimed JB Weld was really good stuff and he used it on his Harley.
I stopped by an auto supply store and picked up some JB Weld MarineWeld (not the quick dry). It's strength rating is advertised as 3690 PSI and claims to be chemical and petroleum resistant. The guy at the checkout counter (a drag racer) swore by it claiming he'd put together a race car engine with JB Weld for a race---the engine blew up, but most of the glued parts stayed together.
So... I'm going to give the JB Weld a try and see what happens. If it doesn't work I can always sand or grind it off, or better yet, get another set plate.
Examining that drive shaft post, the post is loose enough to make about a 1/4 turn and has some wobble in the middle of its turn. Checking its squareness to the set plate at various positions, the post is most squared to the set plate at the point where it snugs up at the clockwise end of its turn.
I'm going to cut some notches into the bottom of both, the post and set plate, with the Dremel and apply the JB Weld to keep it from moving. I'll post a report on its failure or success.
Thanks for the updates, did your JB Weld solve the problem? :( Its a pretty good thickened epoxy. Its been around a long time, but some folks sneer at it. Ive had mixed results. It always depends on the application. and sometimes you know you have limited options and its worth a try? Kee :-\p your line tight as always.
I've always found that JB Weld had to have some volume to it for strength. Small amounts tend to break apart.
The JB Weld is working really well and is holding the post solid and hard. There's not enough pressure or vibration on the post to move it or break it apart the epoxy. This is a light reel. I was running 10lb test on it tops and keep the drag on those reels set pretty light.
But it turns out the main problem was not stabilizing the post. I tried my best to make sure the post was as square as possible to the plate as I could get it, checked it many times from every angle I could with a square I'd rigged just for it, but the main & pinion gears are still making some grinding noise when I crank it no matter how much grease is on it. It casts beautifully, but I can't tolerate gear noise. I'm tired of messing with it so I'll either get a used set plate for it or use it as a parts reel if I have any problems with my other two BMP 250SGs, which are fine reels.
I did use the JB Weld on a small break in the frame of an old Hardy LRH Lightweight fly reel and so far it seems to be the best fix for that reel that I've found.
You might want to try lapping the gears in with valve grinding compound. It's available at any auto parts store. Just be sure to clean it all off real good when you are done. Rudy
How long do you leave it on the gears, until the noise stops? How fast does valve grinding compound work? Is there a down side to this?