Friend gave it to me because he knows I fish and fix stuff. Any ideas about how I might find a replacement part? Or not worth the trouble, just toss it?
If you can post some photos and/or describe which parts are affected we could advise you on solutions. Bails are fairly precise but can almost always be fixed. These Ted Williams reels we built by other companies so there may be compatible parts available.
-Mike
Thanks Mike, here are some pics. It looks like someone previously tried to weld the bail back together. I can take more pics if that would be helpful.
Your reel looks to be in really nice condition and is worth repairing. Bails and other parts for those seldom come up for sale so you'll most likely have to find a well used reel for a parts reel. They are fairly common on eBay for a reasonable price, but you can also check to see if by chance someone is parting out a 410.
BTW, the bails on those were originally brazed/welded at that connection. It looks like it got broken and someone tried to do a crude repair with solder. That repair, if it stayed in tact, would be really rough on line.
I agree with Tommy. Your reel is in really nice condition and deserves a 2nd chance. Your bail system looks unique and likely not common to one of the more abundant reels and not easily repaired in its current condition. Be patient...it may take a while to find a good donor at the right price. You might consider converting it to a manual pick-up in the meantime.
-Mike
Ha i think i have one , there is a slight difference tho . This one has a acorn nut instead of a screw on the outside .
The bail does swivel in the block , that`s why i don`t think you can solder it .
It must be your birthday, and i can send you a card with something in it .
Quote from: oldmanjoe on July 05, 2022, 10:14:04 PMHa i think i have one , there is a slight difference tho . This one has a acorn nut instead of a screw on the outside .
The bail does swivel in the block , that`s why i don`t think you can solder it .
It must be your birthday, and i can send you a card with something in it .
Thanks, that looks like the one! I love birthday cards, I'll message you my address.
Ok I really did sent you a birthday card , you should receive it by Tuesday
The Ohana at its best. Thanks Joe. Dominick
If that's the serial # under the model #, I wish more companies would do it that way.
Good on ya, Joe!
Quote from: Gfish on July 08, 2022, 08:07:31 PMIf that's the serial # under the model #, I wish more companies would do it that way.
Good on ya, Joe!
I think they are the serial # I have 591.38401 and 402 . These reels came from a salesman in sears sporting goods dept many many years ago . These reels were made in Italy, were as other were made in Japan
Quote from: Gfish on July 08, 2022, 08:07:31 PMIf that's the serial # under the model #, I wish more companies would do it that way.
Good on ya, Joe!
The first three numbers on the Sears' model numbers indicate who the manufacturer is/was.
Thank you so much oldmanjoe! Your lovely card arrived today, and the reel is back in business! The bail doesn't always snap back all the way, which I assume is a weak bail spring, but that's a project for another day.
It's mounted on a 7'0 medium Ted Williams rod that my buddy gave me with the reel. In the spirit of your generosity, I offered to give it back to him with the repaired reel, but he told me his fishing days are over and to keep it. I'll spool it up with some fresh line tonight, and head out to one of the local lakes tomorrow and put it to good use.
Thanks again for your help. This board is pretty darned awesome! :d
Sometimes the Spring is fine but the bail arm is slightly bent or rubbing so you can take a small crescent wrench and move it around a bit to get the bail to snap shut better.And I mean ever so slight . Way to check this is to loosen the Screw a bit and see if it closes better .
Left click once on image to enlarge Click again to SUPERSIZE
Henry has pointed you in the right direction, but sometimes the bail might be slightly bent which creates a slight bind. Keep testing and adjusting it until it closes smoothly and completely. Make sure you don't have any grease or oil in the spring cavity, also. All they will do is slow the spring tension and response down. A good alternative for oil, I've found, is ArmorAll. It doesn't attract dirt near as bad as oil or grease. Grease is an absolute no-no.
OK I have some pictures of the bail spring and it`s clocked positions for you to look at .
Basically the tail of the spring is at 10 o`clock before you put the bail arm on .
You do have to put a little pre load after you hook the spring into the bail arm and set the screw in place
I will also put up the picture of just the spring and the picture of the anchor hole location on the rotor cup .
Did you have any trouble with the bail lining up when you installed it ?
Quote from: Midway Tommy on July 12, 2022, 05:49:46 AMHenry has pointed you in the right direction, but sometimes the bail might be slightly bent which creates a slight bind. Keep testing and adjusting it until it closes smoothly and completely. Make sure you don't have any grease or oil in the spring cavity, also. All they will do is slow the spring tension and response down. A good alternative for oil, I've found, is ArmorAll. It doesn't attract dirt near as bad as oil or grease. Grease is an absolute no-no.
Tommy of course has it right on ,Grease is a NO NO on these and Squeaky Clean is Mandantory .
To add to my post about loosening the screw to see if the lever snaps quicker and to add to Tommy's post about the Bail itself you want to make sure that the bail lines up with the arm with little or NO resistance and .
I learned all this from Joe ,Tommy, and TSOHK University .
With the Bail Wire off and the screw loose a wee bit and you have slack in the lever at all you will most likely need a NEW Spring as Joe suggested. I have Tweaked those as well .All this is a labor of love or just plain Maniacal persistence in the search for Perfection.
In my younger days, and for many years, I would work very hard at getting the bail just right —- disassemble, reassemble, tweak, disassemble, reassemble, tweak —- sometimes taking an hour or more just to get it right.
Then I realized some things that I should have figured out earlier.
It is not always (seldom the bail spring) that results in a poor bail return.
The nature of a spinning reel wire bail that protrudes from the reel lends itself to becoming bent or tweaked —- and this is generally not apparent until tested.
So my method for perfect bail snap-back is to proactively burnish and polish the bail mounts —- under and where the bail screws attach. Plus, also clean and burnish the attachment points on the rotor until as smooth as oil on glass.
When restoring a reel —- with the proper tools and process —- this is only a 5 minute job.
A drop of synthetic oil on each side —- assemble the bail to the rotor —- then assemble the rest of the reel.
When completed —- check the operation of the bail snap-back.
If not firm, quick, and positive —- just slightly tweak the main bail mount with a smooth-jawed tool like this Knipex or the crescent wrench that Henry mentioned. If a bail is obviously bent —- I use my hands to get it as close to possible back in order —- then just reassemble and do the bail mount tweak.
Job done...
Of course, this only works with quality reels constructed of metals.
It will not work on Tupperware Marvels or graphite reels that will not tweak without snapping parts —- and that have had years of crud and sand ground into their crevices.
Just a quick step that should be done on every quality reel worth restoring.
Quick, and works 98% of the time.
I do replace a lot of bail springs —- but not always because they are bad —- just because while on the bench, it is a good time to install probably the last bail spring the reel will ever need or see.
Best,
Fred
Like Fred, I always assemble all the rotor parts before installing the rotor to the body. I always check the smoothness and efficiency of the bail arm and spring before installing the bail (unless they're made together and/or inseparable). Then I loosely attach the bail to see if it or the bail arm needs a slight adjustment. If so I adjust accordingly. That process has always worked well form me.
Thanks Fred...I must still be in my 'younger days' because I still do things the hard way. Your method beats mine hands-down but since I wrote it up; I'll post it anyway. Maybe it will help someone, especially if they don't have a fresh bail spring. I recently did two reels that came with homemade springs that were a little bit out of spec but I was able so get them to work flawlessly. These instructions are long (because they are a lot of people's techniques combined) but I can do this service quicker than I can write it down (but I type slow). So here it is:
This is the right place to learn. Some of the best spinning reel people are here (Tommy, Fred, Joe, Henry, Festus, and of course Sal.) I've learned volumes from these gentlemen and have subconsciously combined all their sage advice. The results have been phenomenal and will put your bail assembly in better-than-new condition.
I seem to always procrastinate on the bail until last (which is probably backwards). Almost every vintage spinner has bail issues from years of hard use or neglect I've now learned that it's best to start with the front end first because a spinner with an unreliable bail is no fun. You can do this service without removing the rotor/winding cup, but I find it much easier to remove the winding cup and handle it as a sub-assembly. This also gives you the opportunity to rid it of every grain of sand and old grease. I like to completely strip the winding cup of every component including the bail trip lever.
Once all the parts have been cleaned, I reassemble the bail assembly without the spring and without the trip lever. This is your opportunity to test the fit and feel of the bail wire (which is slightly deformed 90% of the time). This is a good time to take a good look at the trip bracket. Compare it to a known good reel or search for photos either here or on the internet. If the trip bracket looks bent, fix it now. I assemble the trip bracket and line roller, but I snug the line roller nut leaving it just loose enough that it can swivel it if required. The bail wire assembly is not attached yet. At this point you do not want the bail spring installed; just put the pivot screw in finger-tight (you will tighten it later). Then before you put the other screw in the bail pivot on the opposite side; give this interface a good eye-ball. NOTE: The Ted Williams 410 doesn't have a screw here but hooks into a pivot hole on the winding cup so you will do this check on the line roller side. Are both surfaces parallel? Is there a gap or is there contact? If it looks close; go ahead and install the bail screw (finger-tight also). Now flip the bail wire back and forth a couple of times. Is it nice and free or is there friction? If you don't feel friction; flip the winding cup over so the bail wire is hanging straight down and rock it back and forth. If the bail travels back and forth (stop-to-stop) ... congratulations, it's perfect. If it hangs up, your bail wire is tweaked and needs work.
If your bail wire needs work; first loosen the pivot screw. I like to do this on the side opposite the line roller. Just loosen the screw a couple turns and eye-ball the gap between the bail and winding cup. This will give you the best sense of which way to bend the wire. If it drags on the winding cup, it's too tight and you need to pull the ends apart a little. (Go easy, a little goes a long way). If the bail is dragging on the pivot screw, it's too wide and you need to squeeze the ends together a little bit. If it binds on both sides because it's skewed, you need a compound bend (use your intuition). Go slow and check between each tweak. This step requires finesse and patience. Might also be a good time to take a break. Once your bail flips side-to-side without friction you can proceed to the next step.
Remove the bail wire at the line roller and opposite side pivot and set it aside. Now is the time to install your trip lever. I typically only grease the threads on the screw to aid in disassembly in the future. Now is the time to install your bail spring. Make certain there is no sand, old grease or debris in there and that your bail spring is very clean. Install the spring and place the trip bracket on the spring hook (the trip bracket doesn't have the bail wire installed at this time). At this point I like to have a little grease on the pivot screw threads as it will (hopefully) not be removed again. You want to make sure your pivot screw sits in the trip bracket and the spring hook is engaged in the trip bracket (no pre-load on the spring at this time). This is where things get tricky but be patient and it will work out. I like to start the screw just a couple of turns. This is so that the stops on the trip bracket and winding cup will clear in the next step. Double check the spring hook and that the trip bracket is riding on the shoulder of the pivot screw. Now is time to pre-load your bail spring while making sure the stops clear. Once the stops clear you can start tightening the pivot screw while making certain that everything is in place and that the trip bracket isn't pinching a coil of the bail spring against the winding cup. Now your trip bracket should be very free to pivot with good return energy from the spring. It's all down-hill from here. Attach the bail wire to the pivot on the opposite side (little grease on the pivot screw threads), then attach the bail wire to the trip bracket at the line roller. Everything should fit together real nice at this stage because you already corrected the bail wire earlier. Now your bail should snap with authority. I typically won't lube it at all because grease and oil attract dirt. If you feel it needs lube I recommend Tommy's recommendation of Armor All.
-Mike
Excellent Write Up Mike .
All in all in this thread I would venture that it would consist of over a Hundred Years of Combined Experience and so much by just trial and error. I too use to avoid the bail workings till the last but after reading here from Fred,Old Joe,Tommy of course Sal and others I have been successful in the worst conditions .
THIS WOULD MAKE A NICE STICKY ,Mods
Great write up Mike . I think you should copy and paste this with a new title
and put it in General Spinning Reel Questions and get it sticky.
Well written, Mike! You clearly have more patience than me to go into that much detail. ;D You spelled out a lot of things that some of us do automatically but take for granted. 8)
Quote from: Midway Tommy on July 12, 2022, 11:56:53 PMWell written, Mike! You clearly have more patience than me to go into that much detail. ;D You spelled out a lot of things that some of us do automatically but take for granted. 8)
I agree 100%
You guys get the credit. You're the ones who taught me all this stuff.
On a side note; a nice clean bail will sometimes make a lot of noise when it closes. This could be an issue in certain fishin holes.