I recently got an 6ft E-glass unlimited class blank. However i am unsure how to spine the blank because it is extremely stiff... Any ideas?
Quote from: JnM Fishing on December 14, 2017, 03:03:22 AM
I recently got an 6ft E-glass unlimited class blank. However i am unsure how to spine the blank because it is extremely stiff... Any ideas?
Place the blank across two wooden or plastic horses and tie a 30# weight to a rope hanging from the center of the blank. The blank should role to the spline. Additional weight may be needed but I think 30# will do it.
Mostly there's a little bend in the tip that lines up with the spline. I put it in the lathe and roll it to find when the tip is at the lowest point.After that I test it buy holding the tip and rolling it over my forearm while I'm putting the reel seat on. Both should be the same.
Bryan's way should work too if the blank is so stiff you can't see the tip dip.
I found on some graphite blanks that the 2 don't line up very well so I'll go with the dip since it wouldn't look right if it goes off to the side.
The rodbuilders I've consulted recently don't bother finding the spine anymore. They roll the blank on a flat surface and line the guides up with any slight bend present. I had been taught to find the spine as you have tried but am told by some pretty knowledgeable people that it isn't as important as we've been told. I'm still not sure I believe them, though....
I learned something new today. Thanks guys!
Quote from: Bryan Young on December 14, 2017, 03:07:52 AM
Place the blank across two wooden or plastic horses and tie a 30# weight to a rope hanging from the center of the blank. The blank should role to the spline. Additional weight may be needed but I think 30# will do it.
I could see you have a lot of tricks up your sleeve Bri-Bri :).
Very good tip on the rope and weight.
When you came over the house, you showed me and Dan how to find it by positioning the rod in a slight angle and apply pressure on the tip without squeezing .The rod would then flip. I remember you finding my Fenwicks to be on, but one or two newer ones weren't
You know your stuff buddy ;)
Sal
Quote from: sdlehr on December 14, 2017, 04:24:22 AM
The rodbuilders I've consulted recently don't bother finding the spine anymore. They roll the blank on a flat surface and line the guides up with any slight bend present. I had been taught to find the spine as you have tried but am told by some pretty knowledgeable people that it isn't as important as we've been told. I'm still not sure I believe them, though....
This is / has been an on going debate among some rod builders. However I know of none of the US blank makers that agree. Randy Penny, Gary loomis, St. Croix agree that locating the spine of a rod blank is an important issue for best performance.
I believe it always will be. Until some one starts producing blanks by another method that differs from the present use of wrapping blank material on mandrels.... Jeff
Finding the spline and wrapping on or 180 degrees from the spline is the way to go. Many overseas mfgs are splewing propaganda about how it's not important. Probably because it takes time to properly locate, glue up and wrap rods accordingly. Not what mass production wants.
All that is true but I've seen blanks were the bend in the blank is not on the spline. Try telling a client that it's built on the spline but the guides curve off in the wrong direction. One west coast blank builder was sending out blanks that had sort of a knuckle in the tip of the light rods. Best you could do was get all the guides straight to the eyeball spline or no spline. Very few people will buy a rod with guides that look cocked to one side. These were very popular blanks and I'd see whole batches like that. I still use their blanks and don't see that anymore thankfully.
Bryan's method sounds best for those thick heavy blanks.
Quote from: Bryan Young on December 14, 2017, 03:07:52 AM
Quote from: JnM Fishing on December 14, 2017, 03:03:22 AM
I recently got an 6ft E-glass unlimited class blank. However i am unsure how to spine the blank because it is extremely stiff... Any ideas?
Place the blank across two wooden or plastic horses and tie a 30# weight to a rope hanging from the center of the blank. The blank should role to the spline. Additional weight may be needed but I think 30# will do it.
tried your suggestion.... no dice.. any other suggestions on spining an unlimited class rod?
You may need to add a little more weight or you may already be on the spline.
Is it hollow or solid? Roll in on something flat like you would to check a pool cue on a pool table. If it's straight may not have a spline.
Quote from: Swami805 on December 15, 2017, 01:14:53 AM
Is it hollow or solid? Roll in on something flat like you would to check a pool cue on a pool table. If it's straight may not have a spline.
It is hollow. It is EXTREMELY stiff Gator glass blank from Mudhole. I tied a 20 & 10 pound dumbell to dangle from the center and the loop just rotated around the rod... no dice..
Butt of blank on the ground/floor, your hand on the tip top. Hold the rod at slight to moderate angle and apply a bit of pressure with your hand at the tip top to get a slight bend, with a unlimited rod the bend will be almost unnoticeable then roll the blank with your other hand. You may need to place your foot close to or touching the the butt of the rod when rolling it to keep it from sliding out on the floor. When you roll the blank you should not have a even feeling of smoothness around the whole blank, you should notice as you roll the blank that there is a bit of a sticking point, meaning that it rolls easier/smoother through most of the blank but is a bit harder to roll at some point. Mark that point with a pen, chalk or a piece of tape. Repeat the process a second time and if the sticking point is at the same place on the blank then you have found the spline. With a bend in the blank the sticking point should be at the opposite side of the curve/bend and that will be the spline/spine of the rod.
Quote from: JnM Fishing on December 15, 2017, 01:21:17 AM
It is hollow. It is EXTREMELY stiff Gator glass blank from Mudhole. I tied a 20 & 10 pound dumbell to dangle from the center and the loop just rotated around the rod... no dice..
If the blank is that stiff it probably won't matter much if you don't find a spine. You're surely not going to be casting with it, so that is out of the equation.
I've heard guys use the word "spline" instead of "spine". My understanding is a "spline" is a single strip of a 6-strip bamboo rod, and the "spine" is what we are talking about in this discussion. It's about how the rod bends, like your spine bends more in one direction (fore and back) than another (side to side).....
Quote from: SoCalAngler on December 15, 2017, 01:40:47 AM
Butt of blank on the ground/floor, your hand on the tip top. Hold the rod at slight to moderate angle and apply a bit of pressure with your hand to get a slight bend, with a unlimited rod the bend will be almost unnoticeable then roll the blank with your other hand. You may need to place your foot close to or touching the the butt of the rod when rolling it to keep it from sliding out on the floor. When you roll the blank you should not have a even feeling of smoothness around the whole blank, you should notice as you roll the blank that there is a bit of a sticking point, meaning that it rolls easier/smoother through most of the blank but is a bit harder to roll at some point. Mark that point with a pen, chalk or a piece of tape. Repeat the process a second time and if the sticking point is at the same place on the blank then you have found the spline. With a bend in the blank the sticking point should be at the opposite side of the curve/bend and that will be the spline/spine of the rod.
This is how I did it on my stub 80s... short/stiff blanks. I also, taped the guides in place, and loaded the rod up, with a line through the rollers to make final adjustments to the spacing, and rolled the rod slightly each way to confirm the spline.
Though, in hindsight it was probably not as important on this type of rod.
John
Quote from: Tightlines666 on December 15, 2017, 01:47:32 AM
Quote from: SoCalAngler on December 15, 2017, 01:40:47 AM
Butt of blank on the ground/floor, your hand on the tip top. Hold the rod at slight to moderate angle and apply a bit of pressure with your hand to get a slight bend, with a unlimited rod the bend will be almost unnoticeable then roll the blank with your other hand. You may need to place your foot close to or touching the the butt of the rod when rolling it to keep it from sliding out on the floor. When you roll the blank you should not have a even feeling of smoothness around the whole blank, you should notice as you roll the blank that there is a bit of a sticking point, meaning that it rolls easier/smoother through most of the blank but is a bit harder to roll at some point. Mark that point with a pen, chalk or a piece of tape. Repeat the process a second time and if the sticking point is at the same place on the blank then you have found the spline. With a bend in the blank the sticking point should be at the opposite side of the curve/bend and that will be the spline/spine of the rod.
This is how I did it on my stub 80s... short/stiff blanks. I also, taped the guides in place, and loaded the rod up, with a line through the rollers to make final adjustments to the spacing, and rolled the rod slightly each way to confirm the spline.
Though, in hindsight it was probably not as important on this type of rod.
John
I am building a stand up shark rod- overkill, i know... but just cause... If the spine is not found what repercussions would i face in terms of rod longevity and durability?
IMO the the higher the drag on a reel and rod the more important it is to find the spline of the rod to keep it from twisting or giving that twisting feeling.
Anyone that says it is not important I would not have them build me a rod or buy a blank from them if they did in deed manufacture the blanks. Well ok maybe a trout rod for 2-4 lb test it is not that important I will give you that but for saltwater gear and especially big game gear I feel it is a must.
Not finding the slpine on a rod means nothing to the longevity of said rod. But it means everything in the comfort, pulling power and feel while hooked up to a big fish.
Ok i put 50 ibs in a book sack and re attempted the horse method listed earlier. I noticed that when i flexed / bounced the rod and twisted it one side isn't as stiff as the rest and one side is extremely stiff.. which of these is the spine? Im new to this rod building game...
I didn't mean to say it's not important, and in fact it may be especially so on heavier gear, but rather that given how short and stiff my rod blanks are, there was very little difference between the 4 points of the spine, and a hardly perceivable affect when completely off spine.
Spining is an important first step. Part of the reason I spent so much time checking them.
Though, it may be less important on a blank that has a barely notable spine.
It's funny, ever since I learned how to spine, spine, I find myself checking it on every rod I pick up at the tackle store. A lot of factory rods are not spined correctly, but some are.
You may want to practice spining a lighter rod that you have laying around first, to get the feel for it?
John
i found a spot that flexes with a lot less resistance when trying the horse method. Is this the spine?
Jn,
It is super easy to find the spline with the method I listed above. No need to over think it. The harder area of the blank to roll is the spline and should be on the top of a finished rod where you mount the guides for a conventional or on the bottom for a spinning rod.
Tightlines666,
My remarks were not just pointed at you per-say, rather to anyone that feels finding the spline on a big game rod is not that important.
Quote from: SoCalAngler on December 15, 2017, 02:28:15 AM
Jn,
It is super easy to find the spline with the method I listed above. No need to over think it. The harder area of the blank to roll is the spline and should be on the top of a finished rod where you mount the guides for a conventional or on the bottom for a spinning rod.
Tightlines666,
My remarks were not just pointed at you per-say, rather to anyone that feels finding the spline on a big game rod is not that important.
On so the part that is the stiffest is the side i should put my guides on for a conventional setup?
The spine is the plane the rod flexes in most readily. Once you determine the spine it doesn't matter if you place the guides on the top or the bottom, you just want the flex of the rod in line with the guides so there's no twisting when there's a heavy load. I'm doing the same build with a Super Seeker 2x4 (one of these days I might finish this build) and will use spiral the guides to cut down on the twist under a heavy load, which I hope to experience often....
Quote from: JnM Fishing on December 15, 2017, 02:32:40 AM
Quote from: SoCalAngler on December 15, 2017, 02:28:15 AM
Jn,
It is super easy to find the spline with the method I listed above. No need to over think it. The harder area of the blank to roll is the spline and should be on the top of a finished rod where you mount the guides for a conventional or on the bottom for a spinning rod.
Tightlines666,
My remarks were not just pointed at you per-say, rather to anyone that feels finding the spline on a big game rod is not that important.
On so the part that is the stiffest is the side i should put my guides on for a conventional setup?
IMO yes. That is how all my rods are built, both customs and factory wrapped.
Quote from: sdlehr on December 15, 2017, 02:33:10 AM
The spine is the plane the rod flexes in most readily. Once you determine the spine it doesn't matter if you place the guides on the top or the bottom, you just want the flex of the rod in line with the guides so there's no twisting when there's a heavy load. I'm doing the same build with a Super Seeker 2x4 (one of these days I might finish this build) and will spiral the guides to cut down on the twist under a heavy load, which I hope to experience often....
IMO the spline it the stiffest area on a blank not the area that "flexes most readily"
Quote from: SoCalAngler on December 15, 2017, 02:28:15 AM
Tightlines666,
My remarks were not just pointed at you per-say, rather to anyone that feels finding the spline on a big game rod is not that important.
Rodga.
It is my understanding that rods will have 2 separate planes, roughly at 90deg to each other. The 'effective spine', as Dale Clemens calls it, is the primary spine and is the angle where the rod bend is the stiffest. This bend will also have a higher frequency vibration, and will have 1 side where the bend is stiffer. This is the angle, and side that you want the guides and reel aligned up with since it will resist any twisting forces the most. The secondary spine has opposite characteristics, it is the softest, and has the lowest frequency resonation. This angle also has a softer, and a stiffer side, though the difference is less noticable.
Now, each of these planes can, and do often vary along the length if the blank, so when we spine the rod, we are looking for the average spine throughout the entire length, when it is loaded up (what you expect to fish it at..maybe 30% of line weight, or up to 50% of the line class rating). Loading it more strongly will typically move the average spine point towards the butt, and vise versa.
On a fly rod, or very light/whippy rod, when casting loading is the major consideration, you want to load it with the weight it will experience during a cast, rather then a fight when to determine the spine location. This may result in the tip section being more important, or not depending on the blank.
These same concepts apply to customizing golf club shafts, or tuning them to your swing. Look up the specs on composite golf shafts, and you can find info/graphs on the major and minor spines of the shaft.
Having said that, it doesn't need to be the complicated. Just check it as previously described, and mark the point where it is stiffest when it is bent. Align your guides and reel seat with that mark.
John
I attached a few photos of Dale Clemens' description from his book. Hopefully, I am not violating any copyright laws here?
Quote from: Tightlines666 on December 15, 2017, 03:34:42 AM
Quote from: SoCalAngler on December 15, 2017, 02:28:15 AM
Tightlines666,
My remarks were not just pointed at you per-say, rather to anyone that feels finding the spline on a big game rod is not that important.
Rodga.
It is my understanding that rods will have 2 separate planes, roughly at 90deg to each other. The 'effective spine', as Dale Clemens calls it, is the primary spine and is the angle where the rod bend is the stiffest. This bend will also have a higher frequency vibration, and will have 1 side where the bend is stiffer. This is the angle, and side that you want the guides and reel aligned up with since it will resist any twisting forces the most. The secondary spine has opposite characteristics, it is the softest, and has the lowest frequency resonation. This angle also has a softer, and a stiffer side, though the difference is less noticable.
Now, each of these planes can, and do often vary along the length if the blank, so when we spine the rod, we are looking for the average spine throughout the entire length, when it is loaded up (what you expect to fish it at..maybe 30% of line weight, or up to 50% of the line class rating). Loading it more strongly will typically move the average spine point towards the butt, and vise versa.
On a fly rod, or very light/whippy rod, when casting loading is the major consideration, you want to load it with the weight it will experience during a cast, rather then a fight when to determine the spine location. This may result in the tip section being more important, or not depending on the blank.
These same concepts apply to customizing golf club shafts, or tuning them to your swing. Look up the specs on composite golf shafts, and you can find info/graphs on the major and minor spines of the shaft.
Having said that, it doesn't need to be the complicated. Just check it as previously described, and mark the point where it is stiffest when it is bent. Align your guides and reel seat with that mark.
John
I attached a few photos of Dale Clemens' description from his book. Hopefully, I am not violating any copyright laws here?
[/quote
Finding the spine of an unlimited rod is easier said than done.... that sucker is stiff as a board...
Im going to see if Mudhole will let me return the Unlimited Class blank and replace it with a 80-130.
If you used my method, place the guides on the bottom.
As drag increases it is all the more important to locate the spine of the rod. Pressure from high drag causes big issues when there is missalignment between guides & spine . This scenario can cause one to fight the rod more than the fish. In severe casses it is an unpleasant thing.... Jeff
It may cause the rod to twist on you and if you resist it, there will be undue side load on the guides feet.
Get a Rainshadow E Glass Blank.
That is the Majority of my Shark Rod Arsenal and they are just what the doctor ordered.
They will load up and provide the perfect balance of flex and back bone to give you the leverage advantage on a Large Shark.
Just my personal opinion. ;)