Tackle Failure...was it the reel???

Started by rebait1, August 21, 2022, 08:59:01 PM

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jurelometer

An regarding the comments on guides and friction, from what I have read,  GSP has an extremely low coefficient of friction, less then Acetal (Delrin), and approaching PTFE (Teflon).  Any friction from GSP over ANY grade of ceramics, or rollers or that matter, is going to be so minimal it will of no consequence in this situation. Both in terms of affecting drag, and potential wear on the line.

I am still trying to wrap my head around how the rod as a lever interacts with the drag, since the guides/spectra are not introducing significant friction.  I want to say zero.  the rod just bends until the force is greater than the drag. And then it unbends,  sort of like a spring.  Kind of wish I hadn't slept through physics  :(

-J

Cor

@ jurelometer
When casting mono that is dry (water acts as lubricant) you sometimes burn your finger on the line when you control the rotational speed of the reel to avoid a backlash.    This often leaves a white burn mark on the thumb and also on the line which can be seen and it hurts.

With Spectra or Dynema the the same thing happens, however it does not burn your finger nor does it leave a visible mark on the line or hurt, so it sort of goes unnoticed (though the caster should be aware he has been making bad casts)

I regularly test my line after a day's fishing by tying it to a hook at the end of my (cull de sac)road and pull on a 80 mt length to see if it's good enough to use for the next day.  Mono usually takes a fairly strong pull to break, but braid just pops with a light pull.    What's more, when that happens, I make a light knot and pull the braid again and it will pop again sometimes I end up with 4 pieces and the lot gets replaced.

This has happened often, I researched it and in my mind have zero doubt that friction heat is what caused that.    That is one of the reasons I often say mono is the better casting line.

Now someone may say people don't cast with a Tiagra, true but the reel was hot from another cause. :cf
Cornelis

jurelometer

#32
Quote from: Cor on September 03, 2022, 07:46:38 PM@ jurelometer
When casting mono that is dry (water acts as lubricant) you sometimes burn your finger on the line when you control the rotational speed of the reel to avoid a backlash.    This often leaves a white burn mark on the thumb and also on the line which can be seen and it hurts.

With Spectra or Dynema the the same thing happens, however it does not burn your finger nor does it leave a visible mark on the line or hurt, so it sort of goes unnoticed (though the caster should be aware he has been making bad casts)

I regularly test my line after a day's fishing by tying it to a hook at the end of my (cull de sac)road and pull on a 80 mt length to see if it's good enough to use for the next day.  Mono usually takes a fairly strong pull to break, but braid just pops with a light pull.    What's more, when that happens, I make a light knot and pull the braid again and it will pop again sometimes I end up with 4 pieces and the lot gets replaced.

This has happened often, I researched it and in my mind have zero doubt that friction heat is what caused that.    That is one of the reasons I often say mono is the better casting line.

Now someone may say people don't cast with a Tiagra, true but the reel was hot from another cause. :cf

The friction is on your thumb which doesn't have the same coefficient of friction as the guide rings and sliding friction is a function of clamping force and coefficient of friction. Also the line keeps moving but your thumb doesn't, so any individual point on of the line is probably not getting heated much at from any point of friction.  There is friction from the air, but if your line is overheating from that kind of velocity, I want some casting lessons :)  . 

I am in the camp that the root cause for braid wear from casting is that GSP fibers are relatively brittle. Which is also why knots in braid tend to be weaker (and wear out faster) than nylon mono.

The process of braiding causes the fibers cross each other, so any force on the line (like a cast) will start causing the fibers to shear against each other. Not to mention the impact from the coils and waves in the line whacking into the front of the guide rings and frames.

  I would expect (but don't know for sure) that impact/shock is going to be where the heavy damage occurs, as opposed steady force.  I have noticed that the worn out braid from casting really ramps up as I get closer to the lure, which is not what would be expected from heat, but what I would expect from the line getting yanked and whacking the guides (harder at the beginning of the cast).

One funny thing about braid is that one would expect a tighter/denser weave to be stronger, but because of the shear problem, it is actually weaker for the same quantity of base fibers per meter.

I do agree with you on your astute observation on heat damage on the braid on the Tiaga. and also agree on the need to keep an eye on braid when distance casting  (just disagree on the root cause).  I also find mono more pleasant to cast, but I can't cast a 2 oz lure with 60 lb mono very far, or fit enough yardage in one of those nice low-profile levelwind reels.  Plus I can use a single braid outfit for both casting and drop jigging, which is very useful for me.  So I don't see myself going back to mono much- especially to something like 20 lb, but I do miss it.  I guess it depends a bit on the style and variety of fishing for a given outfit.

-J


Cor

#33
Quote from: jurelometer on September 03, 2022, 09:36:27 PM
Quote from: Cor on September 03, 2022, 07:46:38 PM@ jurelometer
When casting mono that is dry (water acts as lubricant) you sometimes burn your finger on the line when you control the rotational speed of the reel to avoid a backlash.    This often leaves a white burn mark on the thumb and also on the line which can be seen and it hurts.

With Spectra or Dynema the the same thing happens, however it does not burn your finger nor does it leave a visible mark on the line or hurt, so it sort of goes unnoticed (though the caster should be aware he has been making bad casts)

I regularly test my line after a day's fishing by tying it to a hook at the end of my (cull de sac)road and pull on a 80 mt length to see if it's good enough to use for the next day.  Mono usually takes a fairly strong pull to break, but braid just pops with a light pull.    What's more, when that happens, I make a light knot and pull the braid again and it will pop again sometimes I end up with 4 pieces and the lot gets replaced.

This has happened often, I researched it and in my mind have zero doubt that friction heat is what caused that.    That is one of the reasons I often say mono is the better casting line.

Now someone may say people don't cast with a Tiagra, true but the reel was hot from another cause. :cf

The friction is on your thumb which doesn't have the same coefficient of friction as the guide rings and sliding friction is a function of clamping force and coefficient of friction. Also the line keeps moving but your thumb doesn't,    I do move my thumb specifically to reduce friction on one spot and also lesson the pressure.
 so any individual point on of the line is probably not getting heated much at from any point of friction.  There is friction from the air, but if your line is overheating from that kind of velocity, I want some casting lessons :)  . 

Those lessons come for free, even a few beers thrown in, but you will have to visit Cape Town.  I tried to read up on coefficient of friction but gave up. ???


I would expect (but don't know for sure) that impact/shock is going to be where the heavy damage occurs, as opposed steady force.  I have noticed that the worn out braid from casting really ramps up as I get closer to the lure, which is not what would be expected from heat, but what I would expect from the line getting yanked and whacking the guides (harder at the beginning of the cast).
I have often commented on the wooliness of all braid after a period of use but never been able to determine why precisely this happens.    That it is a result of casting I am certain of, that it is worse towards the front of the (towards the lure) line is also true.  I had also expected that a "spinning reel" would do more damage to that type of line because of the way the line passes through the guides in large coils, but from questioning my mates that use that type of tackle it appear not to be so.   So then I again start thinking about friction LOL   The most braking of the reel is required shortly after the release of the casting weight, not only the most, but also the hardest (most pressure) and sometimes of the longest duration. so that would be on the front section of the line.

One funny thing about braid is that one would expect a tighter/denser weave to be stronger, but because of the shear problem, it is actually weaker for the same quantity of base fibers per meter.

I do agree with you on your astute observation on heat damage on the braid on the Tiaga. and also agree on the need to keep an eye on braid when distance casting  (just disagree on the root cause).  I also find mono more pleasant to cast, but I can't cast a 2 oz lure with 60 lb mono very far, or fit enough yardage in one of those nice low-profile levelwind reels.  Plus I can use a single braid outfit for both casting and drop jigging, which is very useful for me.  So I don't see myself going back to mono much- especially to something like 20 lb, but I do miss it.

I guess it depends a bit on the style and variety of fishing for a given outfit.  As always very true.

-J
With suitable tackle and fairly limp 60 lb mono and 2 oz weight I can probably manage 60 mt but increase casting weight to 3 oz would add 15 mt.  Years back we used to fish with 60 lb and modern mono is limper, softer and thinner so will add a few meters as well.  When casting at Yellowfin Tuna from a boat I use 60 lb and a fairly short rod which is not ideal casting equipment but a trade off.

Cornelis

Patudo

#34
There are two aspects to this - how/why the line itself broke and what was done in the way of angling and boat handling after the bite. 

As far as the line itself breaking, assuming the line was in good condition (braid used as backing tends to stay in reasonably good shape as the working line is mono and the braid only comes out on a decent fish - but if multiple hookups on tuna regularly happen there could be issues with crossed lines etc - it's something definitely worth checking for), the last few posts may well have identified the reason - excessive heat generated within the reel affecting the line.  This is a known issue with mono, but I hadn't realized that gel-spun/braid was also susceptible.   That being the case, chucking water over the reel might actually have helped, hmmm...

The more important question is how best to avoid a similar breakoff in the future.  On the angling side, when you are down deep in the spool, like half spool or less, you need to be aware of the increase in drag that happens when the line is that far down (and also the pressure at the fish end from all the line the fish is now towing around).  If you are at half spool and the fish is still screaming line off, you need to think hard about easing the pressure on the line (ie. reducing drag).  But you'll still need to go after the fish to avoid getting spooled. 

This is also where you need to think about the objective of your fishing.  If you are trying to get multiple hookups on tuna you will inevitably end up losing line, sometimes a lot of line - which, if the fish you've hooked is a big blue marlin, massively complicates things.  A big blue on a 50W will not stop on that first run unless you are very lucky - you'll need to get after it, the quicker the better.  Crews after big marlin, in Hawaii and elsewhere, fish only four or five rods (130s), and often have only enough time to clear one side of the boat before having to get after the fish.  I have a photo, taken some years ago by the wife of the angler who was in the chair, of a Tiagra 80W looking much like the reel in your photo (except still connected to the fish), the rod angled forward as we went after the fish, the cockpit cluttered with some of the lures and teasers that my skipper liked to fish (two teasers, two flat lines, two short riggers, two long riggers and a center line), and a couple of us still trying to bring in the rest of the gear.  We released the fish but it was hairy for a while! 

A couple of additional thoughts/notes:

- if you have to back the drag off, place your thumb where you want the drag to be and only then back the drag off with your forefinger.  Your thumb acts as a stopper preventing the drag from going back too far. Guess how I figured this one out...

- If you don't see the bite (or see the fish jumping etc) and know it's a blue marlin, if it's still smoking after half spool it's more than likely you have "him" on and need to react accordingly.  If you have a lot of gear in the water, work on clearing one side of the boat, or at least enough of one side that lets the skipper turn after the fish.  Be warned, as the boat turns it will accelerate your line loss, so don't wait too long to start doing this. 

- blue marlin may be rare in your area but be aware of signs that they may be around ie. lots of peanut dorado, skipjack and small yellowfin and especially other boats hooking up with them!

Good luck on your next hookup!