Hi all,
First post ever! I hope this is the correct category.
My plan is to replace the bushing on the right side cover with an angular contact ball bearing. It's going to require a bit of machining but it should be a fun project.
I know, I should just buy a Torque 40 but I already have a Fathom and I just can't help myself!
I'll document the process so we can all learn from my mistakes.
I'll catch you all up to where I am so far.
I disassembled and cleaned the right side case and turned a short piece of aluminum to aid in knocking out the bronze bushing.
Case_bushing.JPG
It turns out that the space behind the bushing is has a slight taper. The area under the red circle.
Space to fill.jpg
I needed a way to hold the bushing so made an expanding mandrel. Below is the mandrel, slug and finished tapered bushing.
Tapered bushing and tool.jpg
Yesterday I used some green Loctite 638 to glue the bushing into the right side case.
It's hard to see but the bushing is recessed from the bearing seating surface to allow for a bit of clearance.Filler installed.jpg
I also needed a way to hold the case when I cut it down and bore the bushing to size so I made the fixture from some scrap aluminum plate. The case looks surprised.
Fixture2.jpg
I'm going to turn the bearing adapter now. See drawing below.
Bearing adapter.jpg
Wish me luck! :D
Very cool project, and you clearly have skills!
Interested to know why you're opting for an angular contact bearing; I could be mistaken but the bearing in that position should never experience any axial loading?
Well, heck of a first post, you'll get along just fine here
I agree - that's a heck of an intro Geno!
Also wondered if you meant clutch bearing rather than angular contact, though the space in the adapter indicates the latter.
Thanks for posting - looking forward to the next steps!
Good luck, Justin
:al :al Welcome Geno. Keep this stuff up and we will have to up your pay grade. Bill
Thanks for the replies.
Let me start off by saying that I am neither an engineer nor am I a machinist so some of my choices may not be correct. I'm happy to listen to any feedback as I view this as a learning experience.
That being said, I chose an angular contact bearing because the original bronze bushing was flanged and the e-clip that secures the assembly to the gear stud rides against the flange.
I do agree that there should be minimal axial loading but I'll be the first to admit that I don't always have the best form when grinding on a big fish.
I just finished machining the adapter. Bearing adapter.jpg
I still need to turn the cap that covers the bearing. Then I can polish both of them and give anodizing a try. That should be interesting as I've never anodized anything before.
Yay!! Nice way to introduce yourself with the ohana, looking forward the next step
(https://alantani.com/gallery/38/17471-081023145936-38344305.gif)
Let me start off by saying that I am neither an engineer nor am I a machinist . :cf
Welcome to the forum ! " My dad was a TV repairman also and has a nice tool kit that I play with ". Looking forward to see your modification .
I think this fella is gonna do just fine here. Welcome aboard.
Do you have an actual lathe or do you also just abuse a drill like me and Joe?
Genoooooooo66!
Welcome to the Forum. I wish I had machining skills like that. Can't wait to see how it turns out.
Welcome! We are all learning from each other here. You'll fit right in.
Quote from: Geno66 on April 22, 2024, 02:04:55 AMThanks for the replies.
Let me start off by saying that I am neither an engineer nor am I a machinist so some of my choices may not be correct. I'm happy to listen to any feedback as I view this as a learning experience.
That being said, I chose an angular contact bearing because the original bronze bushing was flanged and the e-clip that secures the assembly to the gear stud rides against the flange.
I do agree that there should be minimal axial loading but I'll be the first to admit that I don't always have the best form when grinding on a big fish.
I just finished machining the adapter. Bearing adapter.jpg
I still need to turn the cap that covers the bearing. Then I can polish both of them and give anodizing a try. That should be interesting as I've never anodized anything before.
Just a hobby reel parts maker myself, but here is what I learned so far on this topic. My apologies if you already know some of this stuff:
Boon is right. Axial load when winding on the shaft is a minimal issue. When we wind hard, the down and (especially) the up part of the motion causes angular load, levering the shaft out of alignment. Depending on the design, this can lead to unaligned gears shredding and/or wear on the shaft to bearing junction.
The primary load challenge for the main gear shaft design is to keep it aligned with the spool shaft. The best way to do this is to put bearings of some kind on both ends of the main shaft. The common lever drag design does not support the shaft on the spool side, so this is compensated by supporting a longer section of the shaft on the handle side, and keeping the shaft as short as possible. The smarter lever drag designs also put the anti-reverse mechanism on the the spool shaft, so that the drag is not loading the gears and main shaft.
Plain bearings (AKA bushings) have the advantage of holding the alignment straight. That is one reason why they use plain bearings on things like motor crankshafts. The longer the plain bearing, the better it can do the alignment part of its job. Depending on the how tight the fit is, the shaft can wear the bearing in the direction of imbalance or stonger load, but this is harder to do as the bearing length increases. The other advantages for this particular use case is that wear is rarely catastrophic due to the low RPMs (I have seen some pretty trashed plain bearings), and that plain bearings can be highly corrosion resistant in a location that tends to get saltwater intrusion.
Ball bearings will tend to have less resistance when the shaft is not aligned as the balls can roll up on the sides of the track a little. This means that they are not as good at keeping alignment as a plain bearing, but better at dealing with it when misalignment is present.
The stainless alloy used in ball bearings is not very saltwater corrosion resistant.
Angular contact bearings are basically the same as standard deep groove ball bearings, but with the track shifted to go up on one side of the bearing more and less on the other side. This decreases the ability to compensate for alignment issues and increases rolling resistance, but increases the axial load in one direction (decreasing it in the other. Deep groove ball bearings do handle a decent amount of axial load, so if you want to go with ball bearings (I wouldn't), you might want to shock the specs and see if a standard bearing will get the job done.
The challenge for your solution is that it might decrease the type of support that keeps the main shaft aligned. Also removing material from the housing will decrease the strength of thinner cast Al walls, but this is probably secondary.
Angular contract bearings have been tried on the spool shaft here by some members with varying success. The lever drag does create significant axial load on the spool shaft bearings, but manufacturers that have tried to address this have tended to go with a combination of standard ball bearings and thrust bearings.
No failures in science! Just more useful knowledge. There are other reel models (mostly star drags) that can benefit from the type of modification that you are doing as well.
Please let us know how it goes.
-J
Very interesting Geno, are you using a lathe, or an endmill, cirtainly gaining some interest, thanks for your post, we are all learning from the comments, and welcome from Sunny Western Australia, cheers Don.
I was impressed with the expanding mandrel you made. The rest is icing... welcome :d
Oh I'd say you're both engineer and machinist....
I finally got a chance to work on the Fathom 40.
Thank you all for the warm welcome and kind words.
Not sure why the pictures were all reposted at the end. I'll have to look into that.
To answer some questions –
I turned all of the round parts but I did use a mill to cross drill and slot cut the mandrel.
Boon and jurelometer
The plain bushing that I'm replacing is close to 9mm or roughly twice as wide as the ball bearing (5mm). The thing that is interesting is that the bore that the bushing is pressed into is only about 4mm long. My guess is that the bushing will still provide additional support and the short bore that it is pressed into makes alignment with the inner ball bearing easier. Perhaps someone who knows more can chime in.
Bushing seating surface.jpg
I finally manned up and bored and trimmed the case.
Boring.jpg
That section of the case is actually pretty thick
Case trimming.jpg
The bearing adapter fits better than expected.
Test fit.jpg
The company that I work for is moving to a new location so I'll have no life for the next week.
I still have to finish the gear shield. Then I can do a functional test to make sure the gears work, polish and anodize and then final assembly.
Getting closer!
Quote from: Geno66 on April 26, 2024, 04:35:41 AMBoon and jurelometer
The plain bushing that I'm replacing is close to 9mm or roughly twice as wide as the ball bearing (5mm). The thing that is interesting is that the bore that the bushing is pressed into is only about 4mm long. My guess is that the bushing will still provide additional support and the short bore that it is pressed into makes alignment with the inner ball bearing easier. Perhaps someone who knows more can chime in.
A longer bore generally makes alignment easier. But the alignment here only has to be reasonable- reels are not very precise pieces of machinery. There was probably some sort of manufacturing consideration. For example, wall thickness on cast parts has to be close to uniform are the part will shrink unevenly during cooling. This leads to a host of problems- embedded stresses, warping, voids, etc.
And one length does not have to be the same as the other.
Bushing to sideplate is an interference fit (the bushing is slightly larger than the hole). It will hold the bushing in place for however strong the fit is.
Bushing to shaft is an clearance fit. There is a tiny gap. The shorter the length, the greater the shaft angle before the shaft comes in contact with both ends of the hole in the bushing, enforcing alignment. As the bushing wears under angled load, a longer bushing will distribute the load and wear over a larger surface area, and do a better job of enforcing alignment.
The reason that the original hole in the sideplate is tapered that way is because it is a molded part. As the part shrinks as it cools in the mold, the hole gets smaller, creating it's own interference fit. The taper allows the cooled part to be ejected from the mold. You will see these tapered surfaces all over a molded part.
---
Now that I can see the finished product, I can revise my analysis a bit:
If the interference fit on your new part holds as strong as the original, and you did not affect the seating of the original ball bearing, you probably haven't made things worse in terms of resisting angled force driving misalignment under load. It has the potential to be slightly better, as you have moved the support point farther towards the outside of the shaft.
In terms of addressing axial load (wasn't this the main intent?), you haven't really improved anything as far as I can see. The clip is still taking axial load. If the bearing axial load capacity is less than the clip, you actually made things worse. The weaker of the two will be the failure point, so it won't be any stronger than the clip. But as noted before, axial load is not typically a problem for this assembly.
The advantages that I can see from your approach is that you have removed any sliding contact from the clip to the bearing surface (meh), and you have replaced a press fit wear item (plain bearing) with a more easily replaced alternative (ball bearing, angular contact is probably not necessary).
The downside is that you have added an externally mounted, highly exposed ball bearing. The type of stainless used in these bearings is not very saltwater resistant, any you have galvanic corrosion to manage against the housing too (don't forget to use lots of grease!).
I am personally not so hot on this tradeoff, but your reel, your choice.
I did find this project interesting. Thanks for sharing with us!
-J
Hi jurelometer,
That is an insightful analysis and I do appreciate the feedback. I was originally going to replace the bushing with a SS needle bearing because it would have been much less machine work. However, two issues kept me from going that route. The first being that the shaft wasn't hardened and second there was no easy way to create a thrust surface for the clip to ride against. I guess I could have used bronze washer but that seemed much less elegant.
The bearing I chose, Enduro 71801 LLB, is typically used in the cycling industry for hubs and pedals. I couldn't find a data sheet so it would be difficult to verify their claim of ABEC 5 and 235 lb-ft static load. Only time will tell if the rubber seals and stainless steel will last in a saltwater environment.
Does this application require an AC bearing? Probably not. If the engineers at Penn think that two deep groove bearings is the correct approach who am I to argue? E.g Penn Torque 40 NLD2
Was there in improvement? Absolutely. Without a doubt turning the handle is way smoother. Is the improvement due the AC bearing, I doubt it. I think any ball bearing would have worked.
I'll use the AC bearing this season to see if I run into any issues. If I do I can always replace it with an OEM Penn bearing.
Anodizing didn't go so well. I degreased the parts, and then dipped in sodium hydroxide to clean and etch. We'll I guess 7075 doesn't like to be etched because it basically ate the bearing adapter and cover in just a few minutes!
I remade both parts and tried powder coating. I used an Eastwood kit that I bought used. You can see the final product below.
I was a bit heavy handed with the powder. You can see the orange peel. Live and learn.
Painted bearing adapter.jpg
The fully assembled reel looks somewhat factory. I'd like to say that it turned out perfect but that would be a stretch. It functions prefectly but I'd make a few minor changes if I were to ever do this again. Overall this was a fun project. I have a trip at the end of May. If I hook anything big with this reel I'll provide an update. Thanks for looking and commenting.
Fathom with low gear and outboard bearing.jpg
P.S.
While I had the reel open I decided to add 1.6:1 gears.
I added pictures of the gears just in case someone wanted to see what they looked like.
Top gears are original, bottom are the 1.6:1 set.
Fathom1.6to1p2.jpg
This is great thanks for sharing.
"Oh by the way I also made a new gear set. No big deal."
I like this guy.
:) I like the way you think . While I had the reel open I decided to add 1.6:1 gears. Good job
I wish I could make gears! They are acutally Penn gears out of the newer Fathom II 2 speed lever drag 40, 60 or 80 size reels. I got them from Cal's but you should be able to get them from other sites.