DRAGENSTEIN. What this guy says seems to me to be at odds with what I
find in the real world.
I remember reading an example of place mats, with weight added, being dragger across the floor
to prove his point.
I,ve had a search but can't find the thread referring to this test.................can anyone help please?
cheers
Is this it?
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=7652.0 (http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=7652.0)
http://tocatchafish.blogspot.com.au/p/fishing-reel-drags.html (http://tocatchafish.blogspot.com.au/p/fishing-reel-drags.html)
yup that's the article,cheers Keta.
Maybe the bit I,m looking for is on another thread with reference to this Dragstein test.
It seemed to support the theory that it,s all about drag pressure and not surface area?
Something to do with putting weight on different sized place mats to prove this theory.
"One of those is that no drag washers, sealed or open, should be made from materials that are impregnated with grease.
This type of drag is always subject to change based on ambient temperatures. I don't have to tell you the differences in temperatures between the deck of a flats skiff in the tropics and a tree limb rest on the bank of an Alaskan river. These drags will never provide reproducible results. As the ambient heat builds, the greases thin and the drag decreases. As the ambient heat cools, the grease thickens and the drag pressure increases.
The only reproducible results will be obtained from combinations of materials that perform under dry conditions, are not compressible (or only barely so), will not disintegrate, and that can be periodically cleaned of debris and crud. (crud is the material that forms on the surface of the drag washers from friction and heat.)
Beyond these criteria, it makes little difference what the drag washer materials may actually be . . . with one not-so-small exception."
The above is from his blog.
http://tocatchafish.blogspot.com.au/p/blog-page.html
I don't know what his background is but his blog is full of conjecture and opinion not currently backed by data.
I will wait to see if he posts any verifiable hard data before drawing any conclusions.......
I especially like the definition of 'crud' 8)
I've tested greased and dry drags by putting the reel in the freezer and the advantages of grease far out weigh the disadvantages and damage salt intrusion can cause to a reel with dry CF drag washers. The "cure" to inconsistent drag pressures caused by temperature is the star or drag adjustment knob.
I am 100% with you guys on greasing drag washers.Lower start up,waterproof,no ramp up, and they last about twice as
long before the reel starts to "stutter".They run cold or very hot.no brainer as far as I,m concerned.
This chap claims that surface area is not important,and its all about pressure on the drag.
If this were the case then putting extra plates in a drag would be a waste of time.
An avet RAPTOR would be no better than a normal AVET.
Twin caliper brakes on cars are pointless. :-\
Brembo would produce 8 inch disks w/ single piston calipers and put them on every thing from an eighteen wheeler to a Mazda 2?
I think where he goes astray is the simple understanding of a drag being a type of heat engine, that is from an engineering standpoint .
Same as disk brakes.
Richard, the thread you are looking for is here:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=4593.msg36161#msg36161
Quote from: theswimmer
I will wait to see if he posts any verifiable hard data before drawing any conclusions.......
The Dragenstein article is seven or eight years old, so it is unlikely that will happen anytime soon.
.
Tribology is a weird science - literally! More surface area does not always result in more friction - ie drag in our case. Applied force and coeffient of friction are the big players.
The main flaw of the 'Dragenstein Project' was that the owner had his own patented product to sell to reel manufacturers (roulon, or similar, from memory). Also his actual testbed was a seemingly well designed and engineered machine but was it sufficiently 'reel' world :-\
we have been over this before and it is not at all the surface area that determines drag power, it is the radius of the washers (wider being better), the number of them (the more the merrier) and the number of active surfaces (ie keyed washers allowing both surfaces to be active.
After that, generally smoothness (grease) is more important than a small loss in max drag as well as corrosion protection.
Quote from: johndtuttle on September 29, 2015, 09:48:00 PM
we have been over this before and it is not at all the surface area that determines drag power, it is the radius of the washers (wider being better), the number of them (the more the merrier) and the number of active surfaces (ie keyed washers allowing both surfaces to be active.
After that, generally smoothness (grease) is more important than a small loss in max drag as well as corrosion protection.
X2
Though I do believe that increased drag surface area can reduce wear slightly.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on September 29, 2015, 10:33:38 PM
Quote from: johndtuttle on September 29, 2015, 09:48:00 PM
we have been over this before and it is not at all the surface area that determines drag power, it is the radius of the washers (wider being better), the number of them (the more the merrier) and the number of active surfaces (ie keyed washers allowing both surfaces to be active.
After that, generally smoothness (grease) is more important than a small loss in max drag as well as corrosion protection.
Totally agreed on both points ,however a disk brake and its components just like a reel drag remain a heat engine and the more surface area no mater how you achieve it allows a more rapid dissipation of heat and the greater increase in drag pressure and the increase in drag resistance #'s.
No mater what the conventional wisdom, data and drag #'s speak for themselves......
To the original post:
Look up 2nd law of friction on your favorite search engine. Friction is independent of surface area. What matters is the amount of force and the slipperiness of the surfaces. It is really counter-intuitive. The classic example is dragging a brick across a table. It doesn't matter which side of the brick is on the table. It takes the same amount of force to move it, even though the sides have different surface areas. The reason has to do with the the surfaces not being flat at the microscopic level. If you double the surface area you might double the number of tiny contact points, but if the total force is not changed, the force per contact point is cut in half. So you end up with the same amount of friction. There is a more accurate but complicated explanation of this phenomenon, but I don't understand it :)
From a strictly theoretical standpoint, adding drag surfaces inside a reel increases the surface area, but does not change the force applied, or the coefficient of friction( slipperiness of the surfaces). So this should mean that adding drag washers to a stack does not increase the amount of friction, so at a given amount of torque on the star, the number of drag washers will not change the actual amount of drag.
That does not mean that the drag stack does not perform better with more washers, or even that it might be possible to get a higher drag setting (perhaps by generating a better torque to lateral force translation). But it does mean that any improvement in total drag for a given torque setting is not directly attributed to increasing the surface area.
Regarding diameter, I think it works this way: Going back to the brick analogy- if you drag the brick around a full circle, the larger the circle, the greater the distance you have to drag the brick, thus converting more energy per rotation for a given amount of friction. This presumes that the drag setting force can be applied to the outer diameter. The larger the diameter, the trickier this can get.
In the end, we are converting kinetic energy ( motion) to heat. IMHO we spend lots of time thinking about how much heat we can generate ( max drag), and not so much, what to do with the heat. Makes sense for setting up reels for quick stopping, but maybe not so much for extended runs.
-J.
Quote from: Robert Janssen on September 29, 2015, 04:34:55 PM
Richard, the thread you are looking for is here:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=4593.msg36161#msg36161
Quote from: theswimmer
I will wait to see if he posts any verifiable hard data before drawing any conclusions.......
The Dragenstein article is seven or eight years old, so it is unlikely that will happen anytime soon.
.
Ya I have emailed him several times when this was first posted with no response.....
follow the money...... :-\
Quote from: jurelometer on September 30, 2015, 01:47:29 AM
To the original post:
Look up 2nd law of friction on your favorite search engine. Friction is independent of surface area. What matters is the amount of force and the slipperiness of the surfaces. It is really counter-intuitive. The classic example is dragging a brick across a table. It doesn't matter which side of the brick is on the table. It takes the same amount of force to move it, even though the sides have different surface areas. The reason has to do with the the surfaces not being flat at the microscopic level. If you double the surface area you might double the number of tiny contact points, but if the total force is not changed, the force per contact point is cut in half. So you end up with the same amount of friction. There is a more accurate but complicated explanation of this phenomenon, but I don't understand it :)
From a strictly theoretical standpoint, adding drag surfaces inside a reel increases the surface area, but does not change the force applied, or the coefficient of friction( slipperiness of the surfaces). So this should mean that adding drag washers to a stack does not increase the amount of friction, so at a given amount of torque on the star, the number of drag washers will not change the actual amount of drag.
That does not mean that the drag stack does not perform better with more washers, or even that it might be possible to get a higher drag setting (perhaps by generating a better torque to lateral force translation). But it does mean that any improvement in total drag for a given torque setting is not directly attributed to increasing the surface area.
Regarding diameter, I think it works this way: Going back to the brick analogy- if you drag the brick around a full circle, the larger the circle, the greater the distance you have to drag the brick, thus converting more energy per rotation for a given amount of friction. This presumes that the drag setting force can be applied to the outer diameter. The larger the diameter, the trickier this can get.
In the end, we are converting kinetic energy ( motion) to heat. IMHO we spend lots of time thinking about how much heat we can generate ( max drag), and not so much, what to do with the heat. Makes sense for setting up reels for quick stopping, but maybe not so much for extended runs.
-J.
Based on your brick example, youre missing an important point. Drag is dependent on surface area and PSI. With a fixed weight, PSI goes down with an increase in drag area. In reels, thats not necessarily the case. If you add drag area, while keeping PSI the same, you can increase the drag numbers. My insert kits are a perfect example. The 6/0 Sal tested went from 30 lbs? max drag with the stock cf drag, while my insert kit had a smaller diameter, but due to the larger number of active drag surfaces, Sal saw 74 lbs of drag with my kit.
Quote from: Three se7ens on September 30, 2015, 03:42:05 AM
Quote from: jurelometer on September 30, 2015, 01:47:29 AM
To the original post:
Look up 2nd law of friction on your favorite search engine. Friction is independent of surface area. What matters is the amount of force and the slipperiness of the surfaces. It is really counter-intuitive. The classic example is dragging a brick across a table. It doesn't matter which side of the brick is on the table. It takes the same amount of force to move it, even though the sides have different surface areas. The reason has to do with the the surfaces not being flat at the microscopic level. If you double the surface area you might double the number of tiny contact points, but if the total force is not changed, the force per contact point is cut in half. So you end up with the same amount of friction. There is a more accurate but complicated explanation of this phenomenon, but I don't understand it :)
From a strictly theoretical standpoint, adding drag surfaces inside a reel increases the surface area, but does not change the force applied, or the coefficient of friction( slipperiness of the surfaces). So this should mean that adding drag washers to a stack does not increase the amount of friction, so at a given amount of torque on the star, the number of drag washers will not change the actual amount of drag.
That does not mean that the drag stack does not perform better with more washers, or even that it might be possible to get a higher drag setting (perhaps by generating a better torque to lateral force translation). But it does mean that any improvement in total drag for a given torque setting is not directly attributed to increasing the surface area.
Regarding diameter, I think it works this way: Going back to the brick analogy- if you drag the brick around a full circle, the larger the circle, the greater the distance you have to drag the brick, thus converting more energy per rotation for a given amount of friction. This presumes that the drag setting force can be applied to the outer diameter. The larger the diameter, the trickier this can get.
In the end, we are converting kinetic energy ( motion) to heat. IMHO we spend lots of time thinking about how much heat we can generate ( max drag), and not so much, what to do with the heat. Makes sense for setting up reels for quick stopping, but maybe not so much for extended runs.
-J.
Based on your brick example, youre missing an important point. Drag is dependent on surface area and PSI. With a fixed weight, PSI goes down with an increase in drag area. In reels, thats not necessarily the case. If you add drag area, while keeping PSI the same, you can increase the drag numbers. My insert kits are a perfect example. The 6/0 Sal tested went from 30 lbs? max drag with the stock cf drag, while my insert kit had a smaller diameter, but due to the larger number of active drag surfaces, Sal saw 74 lbs of drag with my kit.
It is not the surface area per se, it is the additional discs of a given radius that is the key.
I sometimes find myself wondering if anyone actually bothers to read previous posts.
The two criterion which greatest affect the sum total of drag are 1) the number of sliding surfaces, and 2) distance from center of rotation to center or mean diameter of friction surface. A third is of course coefficient of friction of the chosen sliding materials, but since we use a very limited number of materials in reels, this is of lesser interest right now.
Quote from: Three se7ens...but due to the larger number of active drag surfaces...
Yes, exactly.
Quote from: alantanifollow the money....
What? I don't get it. About the patent, you mean? Yes, the author of this article holds several patents for fishing items, one of them being a drag assembly using Rulon, which appears to be some kind of favorite of his, but he most certainly did not invent Rulon.
.
Smooth drags is key.
I'm finding the best way to get smooth drags in most cases is by adding twice as many washers. A Delrin washer for under the gear helps as well. The star drag reel will give us that option.
The numbers mentioned above are for stress tests.
Testing a, let's say 9/0 with stock drags and comparing it to a 9/0 with Adam's inserts, the difference is amazing.
The 9/0 with stock drags will get jerky at around 32#, even with Cal's, while the 9/0 with Adam's insets will feel silky smooth at those same #'s, the line peels off with very little effort.
This goes for larger or smaller reels as well.
I believe we're doing good here.
Sal
Quote from: Robert Janssen on September 30, 2015, 04:19:08 AM
I sometimes find myself wondering if anyone actually bothers to read previous posts.
The two criterion which greatest affect the sum total of drag are 1) the number of sliding surfaces, and 2) distance from center of rotation to center or mean diameter of friction surface. A third is of course coefficient of friction of the chosen sliding materials, but since we use a very limited number of materials in reels, this is of lesser interest right now.
Quote from: Three se7ens...but due to the larger number of active drag surfaces...
Yes, exactly.
This was a good thread.
I actually hadn't read the 'DRAGENSTEIN' article before (and I have been here for almost 4 years). Alot of what he says about the effects of the laws of physics on drag performance makes sense. You just need to read between the lines a bit on the specific drawbacks of certain reel designs.
Many modern reels have designs intended to address some of these known concerns to improve adjustability, repeatability/consistency throughout the range, and decrease or mitigate the immediate effects of heat.
Many modern day lever drags have larger diameter, lower surface area drags. Also heat is typically dissapated more quickly, and designs tend to do a better job of balancing the decreased coefficient of friction with the increased pressure associated with heat generation so that the drag stays more consistent throughout its force and temperature ranges. One of the drawbacks associated with star drag systems is the tendency for them to retain generated heat, and for things to bind when they become heated. Typically this results in increased drag, and decreased adjustability once the reel gers hot, which happens faster (esp. true^2 when the drag surfaces are working at greater speeds). The reel also takes longer to recover.
Interesting that thin SS drag washers are best for reducing binding, and increased drag pressures due to increased heat, though they usually win out in star drag reel designs. More drag surface area does convey some advantages though that the author failed to mention. But diameter really is the key..think speed or diameter effects on drag are squared where as pressure-related changes are dictated by the reels normal drag curve. We can play with this by changing Belleville (or spring washer) config, and cam ramp. Greased CF is also helps to mitigate many possible detrimental effects of heat, debris, ect..
Also interesting is the author's discussion regarding many different possible contributing factors to surginess. Line angle, spool fullness, etc.. Decreasing spool diameter has a steeply isotope (exponentially growing) curve for multiple reasons though. Speed is one such factor, but spool height acts at the same rate. Of course decreasing spool fullness is usually at a point during use when temperatures are higher, so this can compound things further. No wonder Shimano designed a hydrothermal device that compensates for these negative effects, by simply swelling at a predictable rate as it warms.
An astute angler that has a properly designed, and adjusted reel, can make adjustments to accomplish the same task throughout the course of a fight. Unfortunately, many anglers do not fully understand how to properly manage their drag. One simple rule the author inadvertently mentions is to try to limit the fish speed in favor of increased pressure, and to increase spool diameter, and decrease heat...of course this also must fall within the recommendation of 30% of line strength, and within the reel's specs/capabilities. Anglers accustomed to catching Big Game on light line in prolonged fights must learn how to manage their drag throughout the course of the fight, or the consequences will be immediately felt.
Thanks for reviving this discussion.
BTW I also agree with Lee, though I can't seem to ever recall disagreeing with the man ;)
Quote from: Three se7ens on September 30, 2015, 03:42:05 AM
Quote from: jurelometer on September 30, 2015, 01:47:29 AM
To the original post:
Look up 2nd law of friction on your favorite search engine. Friction is independent of surface area. What matters is the amount of force and the slipperiness of the surfaces. It is really counter-intuitive. The classic example is dragging a brick across a table. It doesn't matter which side of the brick is on the table. It takes the same amount of force to move it, even though the sides have different surface areas. The reason has to do with the the surfaces not being flat at the microscopic level. If you double the surface area you might double the number of tiny contact points, but if the total force is not changed, the force per contact point is cut in half. So you end up with the same amount of friction. There is a more accurate but complicated explanation of this phenomenon, but I don't understand it :)
From a strictly theoretical standpoint, adding drag surfaces inside a reel increases the surface area, but does not change the force applied, or the coefficient of friction( slipperiness of the surfaces). So this should mean that adding drag washers to a stack does not increase the amount of friction, so at a given amount of torque on the star, the number of drag washers will not change the actual amount of drag.
That does not mean that the drag stack does not perform better with more washers, or even that it might be possible to get a higher drag setting (perhaps by generating a better torque to lateral force translation). But it does mean that any improvement in total drag for a given torque setting is not directly attributed to increasing the surface area.
Regarding diameter, I think it works this way: Going back to the brick analogy- if you drag the brick around a full circle, the larger the circle, the greater the distance you have to drag the brick, thus converting more energy per rotation for a given amount of friction. This presumes that the drag setting force can be applied to the outer diameter. The larger the diameter, the trickier this can get.
In the end, we are converting kinetic energy ( motion) to heat. IMHO we spend lots of time thinking about how much heat we can generate ( max drag), and not so much, what to do with the heat. Makes sense for setting up reels for quick stopping, but maybe not so much for extended runs.
-J.
Based on your brick example, youre missing an important point. Drag is dependent on surface area and PSI. With a fixed weight, PSI goes down with an increase in drag area. In reels, thats not necessarily the case. If you add drag area, while keeping PSI the same, you can increase the drag numbers. My insert kits are a perfect example. The 6/0 Sal tested went from 30 lbs? max drag with the stock cf drag, while my insert kit had a smaller diameter, but due to the larger number of active drag surfaces, Sal saw 74 lbs of drag with my kit.
So using my example, this is like adding bricks, not changing the surface area of a single brick.
Or more accurately, x lbs of force onto the stack provides x lbs (more or less) on each set of surfaces. The psi does not decrease with the additional surface area when independent sets are stacked. Stacking is the key.
Easy enough to visualize now that I think about it.
Thanks Adam,
-J.
Great replies gentlemen,took me a while to digest that lot.
the posts from JURELOMETER and especially the comment from THREE SE7ENS have explained this in terms I can
get my head round.
"Drag is dependent on surface area and PSI. With a fixed weight, PSI goes down with an increase in drag area. In reels, thats not necessarily the case. If you add drag area, while keeping PSI the same, you can increase the drag numbers".
Soooooooooo....we can say that FOR A GIVEN PRESSURE (PSI) AND SIMILAR DRAG MATERIAL(coefficient of friction) ENLARGING THE SURFACE AREA OF THE DRAG MATERIAL WILL GIVE MORE DRAG.
(I appreciate that I could achieve the same drag numbers by going "silly tight" with smaller or less drag washers,BUT WHY ON EARTH WOULD I WANT TO DO THAT mr dragenstein?
No.
Again:
The two criterion which greatest affect the sum total of drag are 1) the number of sliding surfaces, and 2) distance from center of rotation to center or mean diameter of friction surface.
Increasing the number of discs will give more drag.
Increasing the diameter of those discs will give more drag.
Increasing the pressure upon those discs will give more drag.
Increasing the surface area of those discs by utilizing the full face of the disc as a frictional surface as opposed to utilizing only a smaller peripheral portion of said disc as a frictional surface, will not increase drag.
Possibility of misunderstanding: Increasing the number of discs or their diameter will in fact likely also increase the sum total of the surface area, but this is secondary to the primary two criterion as per above.
.
In school this portion of physics messed with my head the most.
It wasnt until my tutor broke it down in terms that applied to my personal experience that the light bulb went on.
The first example was the disk brake analogy.
Brembo, one of the finest brake component manufactures found that increasing the disk diameter, adding calipers and pad size in order to increase surface PSI gave improved results. Both also allow better heat dissipation, end result , better braking.
Increasing surface area alone produced negligible results.
Second example was Snow ski size.
In this example the increase in surface area primarily by increasing ski length, all other variables remaining constant, actually reduces friction allowing the ski and attendant skier to go faster. This is something us oldtime skiers have always known.
When I race Nastar the kids are always amazed at how fast I am on a GS course.
I point out that I ski a 190 cm ski while the kids today usually are on a ski that is 165-175 cm.
Hope this helps.
Tribology is indeed weird science!
I know that adding more discs to a star drag works in the real world, or people would not fit them.
Using both sides of a drag washer increases the drag on an avet RAPTOR, compared to the one face on a normal avet(FOR THE SAME SIDE LOAD)
Agree that the "outer area" of a drag washer will provide more stopping power than the smaller dia inner area.But ,that is partly down to leverage (its easier to stop a spinning bike wheel
by applying pressure to the tire rather than the hub).
I can see that the smaller "inner area" of a drag washer will create less friction than the outer area,and that increasing drag surface here (even if possible) would not be of much use,but
add that same area to the outside with bigger washers,but same gear ratio, and you will have more drag for the same star pressure.Isn't that surface area working?
Quote from: richard on September 30, 2015, 03:43:53 PM
I know that adding more discs to a star drag works in the real world, or people would not fit them.
Using both sides of a drag washer increases the drag on an avet RAPTOR, compared to the one face on a normal avet(FOR THE SAME SIDE LOAD)
Agree that the "outer area" of a drag washer will provide more stopping power than the smaller dia inner area.But ,that is partly down to leverage (its easier to stop a spinning bike wheel
by applying pressure to the tire rather than the hub).
I can see that the smaller "inner area" of a drag washer will create less friction than the outer area,and that increasing drag surface here (even if possible) would not be of much use,but
add that same area to the outside with bigger washers,but same gear ratio, and you will have more drag for the same star pressure.Isn't that surface area working?
Not precisely as the additional radius dominates and the now inner surface contributes much less proportionately.
However, area is proportional to radius ie Area of the Disc is A = ╥ * R ^2
So, it is not contributing nothing, but just less and less so as to be worthless as the disc gets wider. The greater the distance from the center it is applied the more drag force will be created in a linear fashion.
Sorry guys, I needed to clean it up, not fair for others.
We are now back on track.
Dominick, if you want to put yours back, I leave it up to you.
Sal
Quote from: richard on September 30, 2015, 01:36:59 PM
Great replies gentlemen,took me a while to digest that lot.
the posts from JURELOMETER and especially the comment from THREE SE7ENS have explained this in terms I can
get my head round.
"Drag is dependent on surface area and PSI. With a fixed weight, PSI goes down with an increase in drag area. In reels, thats not necessarily the case. If you add drag area, while keeping PSI the same, you can increase the drag numbers".
Soooooooooo....we can say that FOR A GIVEN PRESSURE (PSI) AND SIMILAR DRAG MATERIAL(coefficient of friction) ENLARGING THE SURFACE AREA OF THE DRAG MATERIAL WILL GIVE MORE DRAG.
(I appreciate that I could achieve the same drag numbers by going "silly tight" with smaller or less drag washers,BUT WHY ON EARTH WOULD I WANT TO DO THAT mr dragenstein?
Thanks Richard.
I too like explanations rather than statements of fact. I think you are pretty close. You just need to replace "surface area" with "diameter"
So at the risk of screwing up again :P
1. Friction is the force resisting the relative motion of surfaces (in our case solid surfaces touching each other)
2. The coefficient of friction is a number that quantifies the relative slipperiness of the two surfaces (like stainless and carbon fiber)
3. The amount of friction is determined by the force pushing the surfaces together and the the coefficient of friction. Changing the surface area will NOT change the amount friction.
4. Now when friction is used to slow a moving object, kinetic energy (~motion) is converted to heat. The simple case is a straight line motion (e.g pulling a brick across a table). The longer the distance the surfaces are moved against each other at the same speed and friction, the more kinetic energy is converted to heat.
5. Now lets say the motion is not straight, but circular, like a disk brake on a car. The larger the diameter of the disk, the more distance the braking surfaces move against each other per revolution - therefore converting more energy. In other words, A larger disk provides more braking per revolution than a smaller disk for the same amount of friction. That is one of the reasons why we see big disks and small pads on disk brake systems on cars. We need diameter, but we don't need surface area.
6. Simply increasing the surface area of a fishing reel's drag washer does not provide more friction, but when it increases the diameter, it will increase the braking power.
So a bigger drag washer system provides more braking power by virtue of having a larger diameter, not by having a more surface area.
7. At some point it becomes impractical to increase the force on the drag stack to achieve more stopping power (star gets too hard to turn, drag material deforms, etc). Now we have do one or more of the following:
a) go to a larger diameter drag surface
b) stack additional braking systems under the same source of force.
c) switch to materials with a higher coefficient of friction.
Hopefully, I got it right this time.
-J.
Excellent explanation Dave.
You guys are way smarter than I am, you have the option of using statistics and formulas. I need to depend on facts, but don't mind it at all.
Now, doesn't one large drag create more heat than (7) smaller washers, producing the same #'s?
Sal
Thank you JURELOMETER once again for a great EXPLANATION in terms I can relate to. ;D
Also appreciate what JT and RJ explained re the "outer " section of a drag washer being more
effective than the smaller( and slower moving?) "inner".
All clear now-----easy in the end eh ;)
Alto Mare......I hope someone answers your question re drag washers and heat.
I cant 'cos my brain hurts!
Quote from: richard on October 01, 2015, 01:14:13 PM
Alto Mare......I hope someone answers your question re drag washers and heat.
I cant 'cos my brain hurts!
I wasn't expecting you to... Wink
Since my question is pretty much related to this thread, I figured I put it out there.
Sal
Quote from: Alto Mare on October 01, 2015, 09:46:31 AM
Excellent explanation Dave.
You guys are way smarter than I am, you have the option of using statistics and formulas. I need to depend on facts, but don't mind it at all.
Now, doesn't one large drag create more heat than (7) smaller washers, producing the same #'s?
Sal
The amount of heat is identical, how the heat is distributed is what is different. This is why single disc brakes can be red hot yet very powerful.
It will be more spread out over more washers, but the total amount of heat produced is the same as the kinetic energy absorbed is the same.
It must be said that it is very rare for heat to be much of a factor in fishing drags unless you are truly big game fishing for things that can run 500 yards etc.
Thank you John!
I had my own take on it, but wanted to get more opinions from the pros.
Yes, comparing the two, that would make sense having equal heat distribution.
On some lever drag reels it looks as the ratchet and dogs have been fried in a frying pan, but still doing their job. That single larger washer creates lots of heat.
Sal
From my own experiments with different materials (the weird science bit maybe) - Comparing idential setups with 75mm discs of 1mm thick cf and kevlar - same drag (10lb) , same test model (using my line spooler and a battery drill - charge battery and run until it stops) -the kevlar setup ran several degrees cooler for the same drag setting :-\ ran test 3 times on each - within .5 degree same result. Couldn't really understand the results so emailed a friend (specialist in thermo dynamics). He upfront stated that it wasn't his specialist discipline but that he wasn't surprised and quoted weird science back at me. He also intimated that a different test-bed could produce completely different results :-\
At the end of the day we have cf based drag sytems that work in the real world, and are still being improved thanks to Adam and the other alumni. Shouldn't we be happy ???
Nope - If it's broke fix it. If it ain't broke improve it ;D
Apologies for the 'engineering rant' ;)
Quote from: Alto Mare on October 01, 2015, 09:46:31 AM
Excellent explanation Dave.
You guys are way smarter than I am, you have the option of using statistics and formulas. I need to depend on facts, but don't mind it at all.
Now, doesn't one large drag create more heat than (7) smaller washers, producing the same #'s?
Sal
If I am so smart, why do I need three tries to put together a squidder? :D
The amount of heat is determined by the amount of work. Lets say both reel designs were able to keep exactly 10 lbs of drag for a 200 yard run. The amount of heat generated on both designs would be exactly the same.
Now what the drag system does with the heat can vary. It has to be able to maintain function at higher temperature for some of the heat, and conduct the rest away. It seems that most high-drag reel designs focus more on dealing with high temperature than doing anything specific to dissipate heat. Those dust shields on lever drags bother me. Trapped air is a great insulator. It looks like they are trying to build a thermos. :)
I was impressed with the amount of drag heat generated by a medium sized tuna on a typical drag setting. If I can find the numbers, I will post.
I hear you on the dust shields. Yes, it would be nice if you could find those numbers.
Thanks Dave.
Sal
Quote from: jurelometer on October 01, 2015, 08:35:47 PM
Quote from: Alto Mare on October 01, 2015, 09:46:31 AM
Excellent explanation Dave.
You guys are way smarter than I am, you have the option of using statistics and formulas. I need to depend on facts, but don't mind it at all.
Now, doesn't one large drag create more heat than (7) smaller washers, producing the same #'s?
Sal
If I am so smart, why do I need three tries to put together a squidder? :D
The amount of heat is determined by the amount of work. Lets say both reel designs were able to keep exactly 10 lbs of drag for a 200 yard run. The amount of heat generated on both designs would be exactly the same.
Now what the drag system does with the heat can vary. It has to be able to maintain function at higher temperature for some of the heat, and conduct the rest away. It seems that most high-drag reel designs focus more on dealing with high temperature than doing anything specific to dissipate heat. Those dust shields on lever drags bother me. Trapped air is a great insulator. It looks like they are trying to build a thermos. :)
I was impressed with the amount of drag heat generated by a medium sized tuna on a typical drag setting. If I can find the numbers, I will post.
Actually, the 'heat (or cooling) shields' on many lever drag reels are designed to serve 2 primary functions:
1)Serve as a means of transferring a dissapating heat
2)Isolate, and protect drag components from outside salt, and debris
It is my understanding that 1) is accomplished by having:
these shields typically made of aluminum (or some other material) that will quickly grabs and transfers heat to the spool, and the surrounding air as it rotates.
Admittedly, some designs are better at achieving one or more of these functions while not adversely affecting performance.
Quote from: Alto Mare on October 01, 2015, 09:01:53 PM
I hear you on the dust shields. Yes, it would be nice if you could find those numbers.
Thanks Dave.
Sal
Hi Sal,
I found my calculations, but I don't trust them enough to post them. I don't want to mislead folks. FWIW, I am fairly comfortable in my belief that the heat generated for even moderate bluewater use is not trivial. Here is some supporting evidence:
If you look at this post where Avet tested their drags dry vs greased: http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=168.0
They noted heat tinting on the drag plates. Just to reach the first level of tinting in air with 304 stainless, you need to reach over 500 degrees Fahrenheit! (here is one reference: http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=140) These are moderate runs (75-100 yards at 25-30 MPH) at the recommended drag settings. As a caveat, I don't know what stainless alloy Avet is using for their drag plates, and therefore the we don't know exact temp that tinting will occur - but I am guessing that it is probably not that different. They also noted drag grease being thrown off - another indication that the temp was over 500 and past the dropping point of drag grease.
Stainless steel and carbon fiber in resin are both poor conductors of heat. Put then in an environment with poor air circulation, and they will just keep getting hotter. The amount of line on the spool limits the amount of time the drags can run, so the system has a built in limit before there is a cooling off period.
The Avets still worked after several of these runs. so it seems the strategy of using heat resistant components, and not worrying so much about cooling is mostly working. This amount of heat may make the stainless less corrosion resistant, melt all the grease off the drag and any local bearings, and might degrade the epoxy gluing on the fiber washer, but the damage is probably minimal.
I would be curious if you have ever seen heat tinting on stainless drag washers in the star drag reels, especially on the upgraded stacks that can run at higher settings.
Quote from: jurelometer on October 02, 2015, 08:56:54 AM
Quote from: Alto Mare on October 01, 2015, 09:01:53 PM
I hear you on the dust shields. Yes, it would be nice if you could find those numbers.
Thanks Dave.
Sal
Hi Sal,
I found my calculations, but I don't trust them enough to post them. I don't want to mislead folks. FWIW, I am fairly comfortable in my belief that the heat generated for even moderate bluewater use is not trivial. Here is some supporting evidence:
If you look at this post where Avet tested their drags dry vs greased: http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=168.0
They noted heat tinting on the drag plates. Just to reach the first level of tinting in air with 304 stainless, you need to reach over 500 degrees Fahrenheit! (here is one reference: http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=140) These are moderate runs (75-100 yards at 25-30 MPH) at the recommended drag settings. As a caveat, I don't know what stainless alloy Avet is using for their drag plates, and therefore the we don't know exact temp that tinting will occur - but I am guessing that it is probably not that different. They also noted drag grease being thrown off - another indication that the temp was over 500 and past the dropping point of drag grease.
Stainless steel and carbon fiber in resin are both poor conductors of heat. Put then in an environment with poor air circulation, and they will just keep getting hotter. The amount of line on the spool limits the amount of time the drags can run, so the system has a built in limit before there is a cooling off period.
The Avets still worked after several of these runs. so it seems the strategy of using heat resistant components, and not worrying so much about cooling is mostly working. This amount of heat may make the stainless less corrosion resistant, melt all the grease off the drag and any local bearings, and might degrade the epoxy gluing on the fiber washer, but the damage is probably minimal.
I would be curious if you have ever seen heat tinting on stainless drag washers in the star drag reels, especially on the upgraded stacks that can run at higher settings.
Lots of good information, thanks Dave.
About the last part of your comment, I did receive the Tank back from Dominick from his last trip. Dominick did mention that at some point while fighting a Tuna, the star became very hot to the touch.
The reel was loaded with the latest upgrades.
When I examined the reel, the washers looked fine:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14423.msg158337#msg158337
Thanks again Dave, your input and many others here is always appreciated.
Sal
Interesting about the tinting, I have seen some brown dogs on a lever drag reel
Quote from: jurelometer...I am fairly comfortable in my belief that the heat generated for even moderate bluewater use is not trivial...
Yes, that is quite right. This has been up for discussion before. (and initially scoffed at by some :-\ )
The heat generated in reels can be quite substantial. I have previously written that I myself have conducted many tests under controlled circumstances and found that tempeartures can reach and in some cases occasionally exceed 200 degrees Celsius. Which isn't to say that they always do; only that they can.
This exagerated test reel became so hot that the plastic bearing retainer as well as some of the line on the spool melted.
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/DrRob101/Drag%20mods/MeltedShield.jpg)
Here are some approximate tempering colors along with tempratures for carbon steel. These are very similar to most standard Stainless Steels.
If you are seeing these colors, these are the approximate temps it takes to achieve them:
Dark straw 470f
Dark brown 510f
Dark purple 550f
Dark blue 570f
I would think if your seeing any of these colors on you SS drag washers its gotten pretty darn hot. A light straw would be somewhere in the 400F range.
.....................Lou
Quote from: Alto Mare on October 02, 2015, 10:44:36 AM
Lots of good information, thanks Dave.
About the last part of your comment, I did receive the Tank back from Dominick from his last trip. Dominick did mention that at some point while fighting a Tuna, the star became very hot to the touch.
The reel was loaded with the latest upgrades.
When I examined the reel, the washers looked fine:
I have to say I did not touch the star. I was observing the fish taking line and I was not too concerned with the amount of line going out. I was distracted and looked back and saw that about half the line had gone out when I saw the mate reach over to adjust the star. I saw him jerk his hand away then grab a bottle of water and pour it on the side plate and star. At that point Dave who had the rod at that point started to gain line on the fish. After he got tired and handed off the rod to me I continued the battle and boated the fish. The tank worked beautifully for me. I also tightened the drag during the death spiral so I am figuring the mate had loosened the drag when the line was down on the spool. I don't know what this adds to the discussion but it was fun reliving it. I'm going back on the 13th for another round. Dominick
Quote from: Dominick on October 02, 2015, 04:23:08 PM
Quote from: Alto Mare on October 02, 2015, 10:44:36 AM
Lots of good information, thanks Dave.
About the last part of your comment, I did receive the Tank back from Dominick from his last trip. Dominick did mention that at some point while fighting a Tuna, the star became very hot to the touch.
The reel was loaded with the latest upgrades.
When I examined the reel, the washers looked fine:
I have to say I did not touch the star. I was observing the fish taking line and I was not too concerned with the amount of line going out. I was distracted and looked back and saw that about half the line had gone out when I saw the mate reach over to adjust the star. I saw him jerk his hand away then grab a bottle of water and pour it on the side plate and star. At that point Dave who had the rod at that point started to gain line on the fish. After he got tired and handed off the rod to me I continued the battle and boated the fish. The tank worked beautifully for me. I also tightened the drag during the death spiral so I am figuring the mate had loosened the drag when the line was down on the spool. I don't know what this adds to the discussion but it was fun reliving it. I'm going back on the 13th for another round. Dominick
I believe it is very much related, we are staying within the discussion.
Thanks Dominick.
Sal
Heat is particuarily problematic in star drag reels, and can result in a star that can not be turned on the gear sleeve, and high/jerry drag right at the point in the fight (after much line is out), when one should be backing off on the star.
My first experience with this phenomenon was watching my dad catch a 523lb Blu Marlin on a stock 9/0 spooled w/80lb (IGFA ANDE) as a child. His right hand slipped when cranking, and his forearm briefly contacted the star. This immediately burned a near perfect star into his skin (I will try to load a photo when I can get access to my home computer). Water was poured on the reel, which caused a little sizzle, and steam, and the fish was eventually brought to gaff.
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy77/Tightlines666/1987-AugustMisc%20141_zpsfzqq1tru.jpg) (http://s779.photobucket.com/user/Tightlines666/media/1987-AugustMisc%20141_zpsfzqq1tru.jpg.html)
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy77/Tightlines666/1987-AugustMisc%20136_zpsjovlilxi.jpg) (http://s779.photobucket.com/user/Tightlines666/media/1987-AugustMisc%20136_zpsjovlilxi.jpg.html)
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy77/Tightlines666/1986-DolphinfishingJohnsWahoo80lbTuna%2020_zpsoacruouy.jpg) (http://s779.photobucket.com/user/Tightlines666/media/1986-DolphinfishingJohnsWahoo80lbTuna%2020_zpsoacruouy.jpg.html)
Dominick's story reminded me of this one.
*Don't mean to threadjack.
Heat is an important consideration for the design of any big game fishing reel. You can't have something for nothing, and increased drag settings with the same speed/length/duration run will inevitably result in more heat generated.
We all need to be "lucky" enough to hook a fish that will make the star hot to the touch. ;D Never caught a tuna over 50 #'s, but after a long run by a 55# wahoo the star was getting hot.
TomT