Hi everyone, as you have witnest me talking aboutvery fine braid, 16 strand, & ciramic bearings for long casting, well, I was lucky enough to see some proven long casters cast on Sunday, I learnt a few things,
for a start they dont use braid line, as it will dig in every now then & snap the line, but they swear by the ciramic bearings,
the sinkers they were casting, are beach bomb mold, shaped like a torpedo, 100 grams up to 200 grams, I think an oz is 28 grams,
there was one bloke who was using 125 grams, his age would be mid 60`s he was constantly casting 165 M to 180 M, and he was the straightest caster of the lot of them, another bloke in his mid fifties, was using 175 grams and sometime 200 gram bombs, he was spraying them around a bit, but most of his cast were 185 M up to 220 M, he said the 220 M cast was his personal best, all very interesting, I did not have a go, as my shoulder would not handle it, cheers Don.
What rod lengths and actions do they use? Is this done at a park or football field for measurement?
Thanks Jim, yes they were on a aussie rules foot ball ground, I think the distance between the goal post is 190 M, they had the first post @ 100M, the second @ 150 M then 175 M then 200 M, they were also using, a laser hand help measure, it was very interesting, they were using 12 to 14 foot rods, with the reel set knot far from the bottom end, about 6 to 8 inches, cheers Don.
Interesting. Thank you for sharing. I assume we're talking conventional reels here but I don't want to just assume.
But I'm doing so anyway to post the question. I remember seeing talk of how you don't want a lot of back and forth on the spool for long casting because that robs momentum. But I imagine you would want lots of wide angle criss-crossing to prevent line digging. I guess one effect outweighs the other here.
I'd like to one day get good enough with my conventional casting to one day cast it further than I can cast a similar weight on a spinner, but I'm still working on technique.
Yes Jason, conventional reels, with mono filament, just wind it on very tight, they dont bother with the criss cross, it has a bit of stretch in it, brain does not stretch & cuts in on its self, with the casting, they swing it about 280 degree, its hard to get a really accrat cast, but with some practice they get quite good at it, cheers don.
Think a W shape on a wide spool. I saw this on a local TV fishing show. Guy was using a wide Ambassadeur, but couldn't see the model. The "W" supposedly reduces friction and keeps coils from getting buried. Each hump is separated from the others. Seemed not to take the guy too long to get it onto the spool that way.
Hey Don, still getting those funny and interesting E-mail's, thanks a bunch, buddy!
Thanks Greg, good to hear you getting a laugh or two, did you every get a rod for the Alvey reel I sent you, Alvey have definitely closed down, so those reel have increased in value, what they were asking $au 80:00 there now wanting $au150:00, they were using mostly daiwa reels, not any wider than a Penn GTO 220 & of course the line level was removed, & sealed of to keep the dirt out, cheers Don.
I presume I may make a few comments just from my own experience.
• Usually the tackle the competitive casters use is not suitable for actual fishing.
• Not one single factor effects the distance achieved, but a combination of.
• On a conventional reels casting braid is not ideal, but it can be done.
• The shape of the casting weight definitively has quite an effect on the cast.
• A heavier weight does not necessarily mean a longer cast, nor does a longer rod.
• Spinning reels cast easier and further then conventional reels under proper fishing conditions.
I have never fished with one!
• Alvey reels don't cast well ;D (sorry Don)
Yesterday I went to test cast a new rod I had just finished, it had two different length but sections, making the rod 10 ft or 11 ft. (this is supposed to be the last shore use Yellowtail rod I will ever build)
I used a static magged Tranx 500 with 50lb braid and reached constant 80 Mt (you may convert) casting just over 2 & 1/4 oz weight on the 10 ft rod with a very light wind in my face.
Contrary to my expectations the 11 ft cast no further and makes the rod a little bit unwieldy. The place where I was standing was not ideal for full strength pendulum casts and I felt a slightly heavier casting weigh may have helped, ..... I will work it out.
I was reasonably happy with that but did expect a bit better from the 11 ft.
Using a Tranx 500, with 0.45 mm mono and an adjustable mag & in a light side wind I should be able to improve the casting distance to roughly 110 Mt max!
I'll post a photo of the rod a bit later.
IMG_0529.JPGIMG_0531.JPG
Since we are on the topic: Why do my baitcasters seem to do/cast just fine or better with braid, but that doesn't seem to be the case for conventionals?
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on November 12, 2022, 02:43:42 PMSince we are on the topic: Why do my baitcasters seem to do/cast just fine or better with braid, but that doesn't seem to be the case for conventionals?
Despite what I said above, I use braid on two of my conventional reels. I am prepared to give up some casting distance for the benefit of having very strong and more line on the reel.
Distance is not always that important. Braid does have some benefits as well.
My experience has been braid will cast further for me.
At some point it can become an issue of safety for those near by.
Simply because it can pop & break
if the line on spool blows up or becomes imbedded. As was brought upprior here.
Smaller diameter line sets better & baits can hold in place much better.
I love casting for distance. However it has little place for the actual fishing I do... Jeff
Yes Jeff, we find fishing from the beach, for maybe whiting or taylor, its best to cast in the trough in close, most of the fish,are there hunting for worms & white bait, cheers Don.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on November 11, 2022, 12:04:42 PMInteresting. Thank you for sharing. I assume we're talking conventional reels here but I don't want to just assume.
But I'm doing so anyway to post the question. I remember seeing talk of how you don't want a lot of back and forth on the spool for long casting because that robs momentum. But I imagine you would want lots of wide angle criss-crossing to prevent line digging. I guess one effect outweighs the other here.
I'd like to one day get good enough with my conventional casting to one day cast it further than I can cast a similar weight on a spinner, but I'm still working on technique.
First some terminology: a coventional reel is a revolving spool reel.
A levelwind reel is a conventional reel with a levelwind.
A baitcaster is a levelwind, usually a smaller freshwater casting model, but varies regionally.
In terms casting better, reasonably limp mono is generally going to give you the least headaches coming off the reel. Braid does not stay perfectly round, so it tends to wedge in the gaps in the spool. A levelwind helps here with aggressive (cross hatching) and consistent line lay, but this does theoretically rob some distance, as you noted.
In addition to requiring more energy to extract the larger mono from the spool and straighten it out, friction for the line moving through a fluid (air) is a function of surface area, so the much thinner braid has a significant advantage.
I don't think in actual fishing circumstances that there is a huge difference in casting distance if the two types of line are of equal diameter. If I am comparing 65lb braid to 60 (or even 30) lb mono with a 2oz jig, braid wins by a long shot.
-J
Thanks Mr J, many of jig has been lost using braid, cheers Don.
Quote from: Donnyboat on November 13, 2022, 03:12:14 PMThanks Mr J, many of jig has been lost using braid, cheers Don.
Agreed!
If you make a full power cast using braid of say 50 lb, a 10 - 11 ft rod and 3 oz weight and you experience a sudden stop of the reel, you may lose more then just the lure.
Real emphasis on "limp" for me Dave. Mono coils really get me sometimes. Really doesn't seem to me that my line is that old, either. Could a thorough FW rinse be affecting it?
Still looking for a good Alvey reel—-oriented rod, Don. Suggestions? So, they did go out of business, shame...
I got the "Artfully Tattooed Lady" email, Don, COOOOOL, she's perfect. I will NOT be trashing that one! She stays there right along with my son n' daughter's wedding pictures, as well as grandkid pictures for quick n' easy reference...
Quote from: Rivverrat on November 12, 2022, 07:17:41 PMI love casting for distance. However it has little place for the actual fishing I do... Jeff
I lean this way as well. My conditions are the bar and gut bottom surf. The 2nd gut may be as close as 75 yards or as far as 150. If you want to go 3rd-bar, you get wet or yak it. All that distance can be moot if you can read the surf and work the holes.
On the other hand, when you see fish working at 150+ yards, you need the ability to get there..with the right fish-catching stuff on the far end. That IMO is the 1st variable factor of long casting in actual conditions.
Casting as far as you can with accuracy is a great skill to have and the equipment always has to be ready for this, but it isn't the primary objective in most of my surf fishing adventures. I'm targeting the lurkers and prowlers of structure.
Quote from: Gfish on November 13, 2022, 07:10:44 PMReal emphasis on "limp" for me Dave. Mono coils really get me sometimes. Really doesn't seem to me that my line is that old, either. Could a thorough FW rinse be affecting
Water is a plasticizer for nylon. Getting it wet will make it limper, but only temporarily. Hence the old timer practice of getting the spool wet before fishing. Nylon absorbs/releases water based on environmental humidity, but the water is not like a solvent or something.
UV damage is what kills mono, but can't remember if it makes it stiffer/more memory. Seems possible, as UV susceptible plastics usually lose elasticity with UV degradation.
There is also creep/memory. Nylon packed on a spool tightly can creep and take a set, which will give you some tight coils.
If you are looking for extra limp mono, Suffix used to make a ridiculously limp product. It was limp enough to use for shooting lines for fly fishing. You could strip off 70 ft of the stuff and most of it would shoot right through the guides without tangling :)
If I see a spool of it lying around, I'll post the name.
-J
Thanks J, very interesting, from what I understand about nylon, or mono line, it is okay to wind it on tight, when the conditions are cold, as it will stretch as is warms up, now reverse the conditions, wind it on when its warm, it will srink as it gets cold, then it will crush your spool, I could be wrong, cheers Don.
I have used this stuff for many many years and still very happy with it.
Don't know if its the limpest they manufacture.
Quote from: jurelometer on November 13, 2022, 11:59:08 PMHence the old timer practice of getting the spool wet before fishing
I was taught to do this. The primary reason given to me back then was to prevent thumb smoke....a good motivator for a youngster.
About UV. I agree it degrades many products. If you rinse and cover your reels it's minimized. Given that most reels get hours of exposure (vs months) and don't live outside, it seems that it doesn't take much exposure to degrade mono. Also, what is the shelf life of new mono? I haven't looked at a new spool for an expiration date.
Quote from: Shellbelly on November 14, 2022, 06:35:43 PMQuote from: jurelometer on November 13, 2022, 11:59:08 PMHence the old timer practice of getting the spool wet before fishing
I was taught to do this. The primary reason given to me back then was to prevent thumb smoke....a good motivator for a youngster.
About UV. I agree it degrades many products. If you rinse and cover your reels it's minimized. Given that most reels get hours of exposure (vs months) and don't live outside, it seems that it doesn't take much exposure to degrade mono. Also, what is the shelf life of new mono? I haven't looked at a new spool for an expiration date.
That it burns fingers is very much so and wetting the line reduces that.
I am still using some mono i purchased 15 years ago and have not noticed any degrading. I do store it in a dark cupboard.
Quote from: Cor on November 14, 2022, 12:48:48 PMI have used this stuff for many many years and still very happy with it.
Don't know if its the limpest they manufacture.
Suffix Elite. I think it is supposed to be limper than the XL. Looks like they still make the stuff. Never fished it on a conventional or spinner, but might be worth a try.
https://www.rapala.com/sufix/monofilament/elite/elite/Elite.html (https://www.rapala.com/sufix/monofilament/elite/elite/Elite.html)
Quote from: Donnyboat on November 14, 2022, 12:47:15 PMThanks J, very interesting, from what I understand about nylon, or mono line, it is okay to wind it on tight, when the conditions are cold, as it will stretch as is warms up, now reverse the conditions, wind it on when its warm, it will srink as it gets cold, then it will crush your spool, I could be wrong, cheers Don.
I have only experienced spools blowing out on the sides from the line expanding. Shrinking will pull the line away from the walls, andthe arbor is pretty difficult to crush on a typical conventional.
The problem that I have seen is from the line being wound tightly on a plastic or thin wall stamped metal spool. The line is elastic, which means that it was stretched, making it thinner, and storing energy in the line like a spring. It will try to contract back to the original length, and therefore increase in diameter which causes the force on the sides of the spool.
Heat makes nylon expand, and cold makes it contract, so the diameter would actually increase as the reel warmed up. On the other hand, cold probably temporarily decreases the elasticity, so the line would not stretch as much for the same amount of tension when loading cold. I would be kind of surprised if normal range of temperature would have a significant effect compared to the line tension, but I have been wrong plenty of times :)
-J
Quote from: Shellbelly on November 14, 2022, 06:35:43 PMQuote from: jurelometer on November 13, 2022, 11:59:08 PMHence the old timer practice of getting the spool wet before fishing
I was taught to do this. The primary reason given to me back then was to prevent thumb smoke....a good motivator for a youngster.
Oops. Forgot all about that. Must be repressed memories :) You are right! Preventing thumb burn is the major reason for anybody that does not thumb on the spool wall, which is most of us. Improving casting is a secondary benefit.
QuoteAbout UV. I agree it degrades many products. If you rinse and cover your reels it's minimized. Given that most reels get hours of exposure (vs months) and don't live outside, it seems that it doesn't take much exposure to degrade mono. Also, what is the shelf life of new mono? I haven't looked at a new spool for an expiration date.
Discussed here:
https://alantani.com/index.php?msg=423655 (https://alantani.com/index.php?msg=423655)
Speaking of tournament casters, here's one I had never seen before. Wacky looking thing! One just sold for $900 on ebay.
Sorry nelz, cant tell you much about that mitchell, we may have to lean of Freds knowledge, cheers Don.
Quote from: Donnyboat on November 15, 2022, 01:57:09 PMSorry nelz, cant tell you much about that mitchell, we may have to lean of Freds knowledge, cheers Don.
Thanks, not looking for any info, just sharing an interesting find.
Quote from: nelz on November 15, 2022, 02:31:39 PMQuote from: Donnyboat on November 15, 2022, 01:57:09 PMSorry nelz, cant tell you much about that mitchell, we may have to lean of Freds knowledge, cheers Don.
Thanks, not looking for any info, just sharing an interesting find.
Definitely interesting. Had to look this up.
https://www.mitchell-collectors-international.org/articles_mitchell_tournament_1.html (https://www.mitchell-collectors-international.org/articles_mitchell_tournament_1.html)
https://www.mitchell-collectors-international.org/articles_mitchell_tournament_2.html (https://www.mitchell-collectors-international.org/articles_mitchell_tournament_2.html)
-J
Wow, they have a three-tier one! :o
Quote from: jurelometer on November 14, 2022, 07:09:46 PMQuote from: Cor on November 14, 2022, 12:48:48 PMI have used this stuff for many many years and still very happy with it.
Don't know if its the limpest they manufacture.
Suffix Elite. I think it is supposed to be limper than the XL. Looks like they still make the stuff. Never fished it on a conventional or spinner, but might be worth a try.
https://www.rapala.com/sufix/monofilament/elite/elite/Elite.html (https://www.rapala.com/sufix/monofilament/elite/elite/Elite.html)
Quote from: Donnyboat on November 14, 2022, 12:47:15 PMThanks J, very interesting, from what I understand about nylon, or mono line, it is okay to wind it on tight, when the conditions are cold, as it will stretch as is warms up, now reverse the conditions, wind it on when its warm, it will srink as it gets cold, then it will crush your spool, I could be wrong, cheers Don.
I have only experienced spools blowing out on the sides from the line expanding. Shrinking will pull the line away from the walls, andthe arbor is pretty difficult to crush on a typical conventional.
The problem that I have seen is from the line being wound tightly on a plastic or thin wall stamped metal spool. The line is elastic, which means that it was stretched, making it thinner, and storing energy in the line like a spring. It will try to contract, and therefore increase in diameter which causes the force on the sides of the spool.
Heat makes nylon expand, and cold makes it contract, so the diameter would actually increase as the reel warmed up. On the other hand, cold probably temporarily decreases the elasticity, so the line would not stretch as much for the same amount of tension when loading cold. I would be kind of surprised if normal range of temperature would have a significant effect compared to the line tension, but I have been wrong plenty of times :)
-J
Here's a picture of an unidentified spool that came to me on a used 309. Mystic stated that the 309 did come with a "chromed Bronze" spool as well as others. Maybe this is one of those. Wonder how it happened. The flanges were fine. It had too much of a frame to flange gap, making me think it might be from a different reel. All the others I've seen on 309's had 29-309 stamped on 'em. Look closely(or enlarge the photo), there's crack all the way across the arbor and on those little flange to arbor parts;
Hey, u all this has become a wonderful thread. A lot of good thoughts. It's very much appreciated by me.
Other reason for wetting line prior to cast on a conventional reel is helps a lot when tossing lighter than normal baits.
People in my hood think I'm crazy when they see me out casting in the front part of my property.
I'm always trying different stuff, lines,learning new cast techniques.
It's good to know others are crazy like me ... Jeff :d
I like the passerby comments; "hey didja catch catch any thing?".
Quote from: Gfish on November 17, 2022, 07:26:00 PMI like the passerby comments; "hey didja catch catch any thing?".
I got tired of this more than 15 years ago >:D
Quote from: Rivverrat on November 17, 2022, 09:46:18 PMQuote from: Gfish on November 17, 2022, 07:26:00 PMI like the passerby comments; "hey didja catch catch any thing?".
I got tired of this more than 15 years ago >:D
Same as someone asking "
any luck today" when they see you with a fishing rod.
95% of my fishing is off the beach and long cast of 90yds+ is a must, many times straight into a headwind. I use 17lb mono with Daiwa, Rocket Reels, Abu and Omoto conventional reels with Abec 5 ceramic hybrid bearings and 11- 13ft rods. The record for 125 gram long distance is right at 290 yds, set with a Omoto CX530 (5000 size) reel with the same Chinese Abec 5 Hybrids that I now use. I believe the rod was a Zipplex. For what it's worth, its more rod than anything else when you are going for distance. My long casting outfit is a Tommy Farmer 13, with the Omoto CX530 Chief mono mag and the same Hybrid Abec 5's. Of course, I don't get that distance but I can chuck it pretty far! But, my fishing set ups are 6000 size conventional reels (with the Abec 5 hybrids) and 13'4" (The Whip) Thrasher rods. They are composite and not what you would call long distance rods, but they fight the fish they way I need them to and I have to put a lot of effort to get them out there but, its just technique. We love the east coast for Pompano and we are all about distance!
Quote from: Rivverrat on November 17, 2022, 05:24:36 PMHey, u all this has become a wonderful thread. A lot of good thoughts. It's very much appreciated by me.
Other reason for wetting line prior to cast on a conventional reel is helps a lot when tossing lighter than normal baits.
People in my hood think I'm crazy when they see me out casting in the front part of my property.
I'm always trying different stuff, lines,learning new cast techniques.
It's good to know others are crazy like me ... Jeff :d
I live in a condo and my garage is my workshop. I am always going out back to our 300 yd lake testing my surf rods and people look at me strangely also when I walk down to the lake to do some testing, long surf rod in hand and start throwing 125 gram sinkers half way across! It just adds to the fun.
Thankfully my neighbors all know by now what the deal is. Some own rods I've built, and one will come out to watch when he sees me walking to the lake.
Back on topic though, I with my extensive experience, am starting to think that with braid there's a benefit to a wider cross wrap, for the reasons described earlier in the thread, that mono doesn't deform and therefore doesn't dig in the same, so you can wrap tightly side by side for max efficiency.
I don't need to cast super far to catch fish. But it's about refinement and efficiency. If your mix of gear and skills can only cast 50 yds on a good day, you probably can't cast accurately at 45 yds. But if you can cast 100yds on a good day, you might be able to put it in a fishbowl at 45 yds. And do so with a lot less effort.
and I thought I was the only nut case ;D
The most important requirement for good casting is experience, so this is what were all doing.
I usually go to a sport field down the road but there are often too many people around that could get injured by a 3 oz sinker. 2 miles further is an excellent spot at the ocean.
If I tape guides and reels on a blank and cast with that, I get many stares and questions.
thanks every one, some good points there for sure, the ABEC ceramic bearings are the go, I think the ambassadeur reels about 5000 to 6000, use 4X10X4, cheers Don.
I think they're 3x10x4
Edit: I may be wrong
I used to do a bit of beach fishing in the UK but my mate moved away, and he was the one who knew the where and when. Since then my shoreline catch has been pretty much zero :-\
But we did need to cast a long way to reach sand and/or mussel beds or a gulley, whatever. 100+ yards with bait still attached (somewhat important). He always outcast me - no problem. It was down to technique, skill and practice, and I lacked them ;)
We both used rods a bit under 12 feet, 0.35mm nylon mono line, 70lb shock leaders and 125-150 gram weights, normally with grip wires that collapse on the retrieve.
Our reels were both Abu 6500 CS CT Mag Elite - the green ones, no levelwind and sturdy spacer bars - and the bearings were oiled with Rocket Fuel. We had been through plenty of others before settling on these. My rods were by Daiwa and Penn, his were various Zipplex models and a bit, sometimes a lot, stiffer than mine (but he could bend his when casting, I couldn't so I stuck with the softer rods that suited me better).
There used to be a very active tournament casting scene in the UK and distances well over 260 yards (measured and straight down court) were recorded. At that time, Abu pretty much ruled the tournaments though other makes were seen on the beach. I think the UK record cast is 308 yards! It was with a multiplier, not a fixed spool reel, and was an 'off the ground' cast rather than a pendulum swing cast. Pretty amazing...
I can only imagine the rpm of those little spool bearings at the peak and the acceleration needed to get there.
Quote from: Breadfan on November 21, 2022, 12:59:31 PMQuote from: JasonGotaProblem on November 19, 2022, 12:37:05 PMI think they're 3x10x4
Abus take 4x10x4.
Both are correct, depending on vintage. C3/C4 models take 4x10x4. C's and I believe 5000/6000 take 3x10x4. I think Bob answered this for me a few months ago.