I have a 6500 C3 that is in great shape except for one little thing.
The gear doesn't engage to crank the spool sometimes. And sometimes it disengages during winding and growls at me. It's acting up and temperamental. Grrrrr.
Anyone experience this and have a clue for me?
Yes, I can open it up and replace a part if needed...it would just be nice to know what to look for.
Thought about tossing it or sticking it on that auction site as a parts reel but seeing the going rate for new and used C3's and knowing how much I like my Abu's ....maybe I should fix it instead and do a mild customizing job on it. Then sling big carp baits with it again.
Toss your ideas, please and thank you.
Steve
Well, i opened her up and started my own diagnosis.
Looks to me that the pinion yoke has given up the ghost...the little neck area which holds the pinion gear seems to be crapped out and a design or part weak point.
Looking online, I found them on fleabay. $3 for the part and $3 for the shipping. Little bugger must be REAL heavy when it gets to the Post Office. Seriously? $3 to send a few grams part?
Anybody see anything else going on?
All the rest got the normal treatment...marine grease - light coat. Visual inspection of each part for wear. Some Teflon grease here and there. Th drag stack is OEM so I might as well get a set of Carbonite washers while I have it apart.
The weep hole idea at the bottom of each side plate is a home run tip in my book so I diamond bit Dremeled a mm hole in each and cleaned the inside holes so it would not have a bur lip to block any water.
I was thinking of sticking a single power handle on it or drill out both of the OEMs and replaced one side with a JW style aluminum ball knob or EvA knob in the 35-44 mm range. I carp angle at night often and grabbing a skinny paddle during a hard take hookset could be easier with the larger knob.
I thought this would be way harder to delve in to but after a number of Penns under my belt and a few low profile baitcasters...this was easy peasy.
Where you are located, there are no dealers for Abu reels? Or tackle shops? It would be less expensive to try them first. Shipping is expensive threw USPS for small packaging. I really have no better suggestions then that. Or maybe try calling Abu and see if they will stand behind there reel and send you the part, it's worth the try.
Yes, I know what you mean about the postage, Steve --
However, I don't think that is a concern at $3.
If I use a decent 3M bubble envelope --
My cost is 50 cents plus tax, at the dollar store.
Post Office charges $2.42 postage in lower 48.
That is a grand total of $2.97 -- which is the best part of a $3 bill.
This does not count my time, care, driving to the PO, gas, etc.
Not a money maker -- just a fair price for shipping in this day and age -- or am I missing something?
If you drove around to find a shop, or even made calls -- would that save any money? Maybe a dollar or two.
I have shipped parts like this (thin, light) in a regular envelope for 50 cents postage and an envelope.
But not everybody will do that -- and besides, it only saved the client $2 -- and I am not sure anyone noticed or really cared.
Just my thoughts.
Personally, what I do not appreciate -- are the ebay sellers making more money off of shipping costs, than the item.
Best,
Fred
Yea....just a Kodak moment on my part.
I have been on ebay since 98 and have never charged for gas, cardboard, bubble wrap, etc. and mostly do free shipping CONUS no matter what I sell. Will never gouge either. Selling some reels now at low prices just for good karma. Harryk on here just got a teal 209 off me at the basement of costs. All good.
No real tackle shops around...Sportsmans warehouse ..no reel service but free parts from their junk bin. And Cabela's ...no parts. I will check with Abu Garcia then buy the needed stuff.
The one point that Fred made about driving around and time(yes that is two), is right on. I live near quite a few tackle shops and I don't think I would save $3.00 by driving to any one of them for parts, just time in getting the part. Scott's bait and tackle which is a popular place to get parts is about forty minutes from me, that's an easy $30.00 in gas. A phone call doesn't cost me anything but time.
Well, glad you got it sorted Steve. ;)
These yokes typically hold up for many years and the advantage of the nylon/delrin yoke is that it "slides" well over many years with neglect as compared to metal yokes that require more maintenance (but do not wear :) ).
Once replaced you should be good to go for quite some time.
;)
Quote from: johndtuttle on May 31, 2015, 07:19:05 PM
Well, glad you got it sorted Steve. ;)
These yokes typically hold up for many years and the advantage of the nylon/delrin yoke is that it "slides" well over many years with neglect as compared to metal yokes that require more maintenance (but do not wear :) ).
Once replaced you should be good to go for quite some time.
;)
John: I sort of understand what you are saying about Nylon/Delran yoke sliding with less effort under less then Ideal conditions. But to be honest I feel the old reels with there mettle parts last a heck of a lot longer even when neglected, and example of that is a Pflueger Capital reel that I have which is what 40-50 years old. it was neglected and needed maintenance. I took it apart and with the help of a few guys here re-assembled it and it is as quiet and smooth as silk. New technology is one thing but the cheeping of parts is another. I don't profess to know half of what you guys do about reels, on the other hand I do know guns. I see it all the time with the engineering of the new firearms mettle parts being replaced by lesser materials......not a good thing. Abu Garcia and Browning made some great Reels and Shotguns respectively. Not the same today.
I need to apologize in advance for venting -- I rarely do, but in the case of nylon, Delrin, plastic, or graphite parts -- here goes...
Delrin for UG or top of stack is OK -- and a fantastic solution -- because it is a part that is easily replaced and is designed to wear out eventually.
However, in the case of using graphite, Delrin, plastic, or nylon for other moving reel parts -- here is what happens in the real world --
Few, if any manufacturers nowadays, will offer support in the way of parts after 3 years -- if we are lucky, maybe 5.
I work on hundreds of old reels that are 30-40-50 years old or more.
If they have an issue with a metal part -- I can generally repair it. If made of some sort of other material such as graphite, Delrin, nylon, or plastic -- it cannot be fixed 99 times out of a 100 -- without a donor parts reel.
If I had any doubts about my theory -- I need look no farther than storage boxes full of perhaps 1000 decent old reels with just (1) part broken -- and useless because of parts non-availability. This is because the manufacturer does not support the product anymore -- and the composite part is unique to that reel.
Give me a reel made out of metals any day -- over a composite one with inferior interior components impossible to locate.
If I wanted a Fishing reel made out of Tupperware internals & externals-- I would go to a Tupperware party.
Just my opinion -- sorry.
Best,
Fred
Quote from: johndtuttle on May 31, 2015, 07:19:05 PM
Well, glad you got it sorted Steve. ;)
These yokes typically hold up for many years and the advantage of the nylon/delrin yoke is that it "slides" well over many years with neglect as compared to metal yokes that require more maintenance (but do not wear :) ).
Once replaced you should be good to go for quite some time.
;)
John, I respectfully disagree with you on the yoke. A metal yoke would do much better there.
The only function the yoke has is to move up and down, engage and disengage the pinion. The pinion rotate on the yoke and that's where you would have problems, a little tilt of the pinion and it would act as a circular saw.
I've been using a file on the all pinions, by the grove where it rides on the yoke. I do it to stock or custom pinions, this only takes a minute or so and it really helps, you just have to make sure the file doesn't have a cutting edge on the sides.
Sal
Sal, Fred, Reel224 et al (:) ) I think we are talking at cross purposes here and agree more than would appear at first glance...
There is no question that I will always prefer the more long term reliable method of engineering a reel and am not saying that Nylon yokes are parts that make a reel such....they are a cost, weight and maintenance saving solution that works...for a time. remember, these are fresh water reels that guys stress if one weighs a fraction of an oz. more than another (seems silly to us but they do).
We can all decry the advent of "planned obsolescence" or "planned functionality for a given number of hours of use" as we admire Mitchell, Penn or DAM Quick reels that function as new even though they are 30, 40 or 50 or more years old....but the fact of the matter it is the rare buyer of fishing equipment that remotely considers that important and wants a different reel.
They want lighter reels, they want cheaper reels, they want faster reels, they want sexy cosmetics...
You gotta realize that every purchase of this type that uses non-essential funds for toys more or less are bought because the consumer is getting *precisely* what he wants. And the successful product is meeting (some very high percentage) of the needs of the people at that price point.
I spent more than 12 years in Outdoor Retailing including 6 years as a Buyer for The North Face Retail Division and you gotta realize that this sort of yuppie toy is not and has never been about function. It is about the purchaser choosing something that reflects himself as he sees himself (regardless of reality). It takes most guys decades to get to where they are ready for function over style.
We love modded Senators and old enduring classics *because we see ourselves* in those reels. Steady, not a fancy dancer, but utterly reliable even if a little the worse for wear with a few battle scars and blemishes ;D. But solid guts where it counts and indestructible....(true or not :) ).
The younger guys (who is buying most of these reels) sees himself as sexy and racy and able to land monsters on the skimpiest of reels because newer must be better (like himself) than those old school fuddy duddies :) that think they know something he doesn't....and he is on a budget too lol.
Anyways...the Market for outdoor equipment is a funny place with most of the people spending money on stuff having no idea why other than they are having fun. I always have a place in my heart for economical stuff that lets people have fun. They simply cannot grasp that the funnest thing is substance over style until they are ready.
We know what it takes to build a better reel....but the consumer does not want that reel. When you realize that they know what they want, but you are thinking of the product in a completely different way than they most likely ever will....then you will understand why Shimano has over $3 Billion in worldwide sales....and it is not because they don't understand their customer...
best
I hear what you're saying John, but on this particular reel mentioned above, if you compare a metal yoke to that bulky plastic one, the metal might be lighter ;D.
I do like Abu reels, I used one last year for the first time and quickly fell in love. I was impressed when I took it apart, those guys know what they're doing. The only thing, I personally don't like a plastic yokes.
Mine has a metal one.
I want to say this first, please don't take my comments as a personal attack on your knowledge. I am rather speaking in terms of quality and value for the consumers best interest, I feel it is our responsibility as professionals to educate the young public as best we can. You Fred and Sal on the finer points of dependable and quality reels. I mean isn't that what this site is about? Learning how to improve our equipment and the quality of finer tools being reels in this case? I really don't like to vision a customer as a person that knows nothing about his purchase and it doesn't matter whether he is taken advantage of. It's better to educate then to ignore ignorance. Not withstanding that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
I like metal on the load bearing parts and don't like the mfg'ers experimenting with my reel.
Quote from: Reel 224 on June 01, 2015, 01:02:21 AM
I want to say this first, please don't take my comments as a personal attack on your knowledge. I am rather speaking in terms of quality and value for the consumers best interest, I feel it is our responsibility as professionals to educate the young public as best we can. You Fred and Sal on the finer points of dependable and quality reels. I mean isn't that what this site is about? Learning how to improve our equipment and the quality of finer tools being reels in this case? I really don't like to vision a customer as a person that knows nothing about his purchase and it doesn't matter whether he is taken advantage of. It's better to educate then to ignore ignorance. Not withstanding that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
No worries Reel224 :).
But I don't think you grasp the larger point.
No one is taking advantage of anyone, they are competing tooth and nail with other companies for their customer's dollar. These products are highly competitive with each other and the vast majority of sales are based on price as first, last and final considerations. Very, very few fisherman spend any time whatsoever educating themselves like we provide here.
Look at the Baja Special. It incorporates virtually every concept from the "Tank" project in one complete package with full parts support, Made in USA and Penn warranty....and it doesn't sell...why is that? It is the embodiment of this site in every way...simple star drag reliability and the last reel 99% of guys need. It can troll, it can cast, it can bottom fish, it can live bait...and it doesn't sell....why is that?
Because 99% of the guys fishing in Saltwater....that actually need a simple, brutally reliable reel that can do it all and last forever....simply don't want it. Why is that?
Because they look like their dad fishing it and they don't want to look like a guy who fishes a reel that looks like it was designed in 1932...they want to look like a guy who fishes a brand new sexy Shimamo...because that is who they see themselves as being.
You can "educate" guys until you are blue in the face as to this or that inside a reel...but the vast majority doesn't care. They cannot get past the appearance on the outside that convinces them to trust the inside and how they see themselves looking (in their mind's eye) when they are fishing it. It just looks like an old Senator...I remember one discussion about it where some young guy in all seriousness says "why would someone want to fish an old busted Senator...?"...while looking at a brand new Baja Special....
Look at Pro Gear...some of the finest star drag reels ever made....out of business after a few short years. Crushed by the Shimano Trinidad.
Sorry! But that is the way it is standing on a retail floor selling outdoor gear for years. I learned this more than 30 years ago and have seen it play out this way every day since. A lot of stores and companies go broke telling their customers they are wrong instead of giving them what they want...Guys do not go into fishing stores to buy reels out of practical necessity where brutal functionality would triumph over style...because the whole concept is ridiculous to begin with...it is cheaper to buy fish at the market! :D....they are going shopping to buy something that makes them feel good. They want something that looks "cool".
We can all opine as to what the better more reliable part might be....and someone from Abu Garcia who is part of Pure Fishing (that also has $3 Billion in sales yearly)...will laugh and say "of course we know that, but we have to keep our doors open and compete with 30 other companies and every fraction of an ounce and penny counts...."
I hope that helps...? It really is a very complicated thing to bring any product to the market that has mature competition...people with $3 Billion in sales did not get there making terrible products (and not to say they can't be improved)...but they got there giving a fair value that met the greater majority of their customer's expectations...sometime we lose sight of the fact that the average customer's expectation is very different than our own.
regards
Just to take a different tack, check that the little metal tab highlighted hasn't worn out. I had one with wear and the gear would only engage intermittently. It had worn a little groove just near the curve, maybe take a closer photo of the tab for us?
Cheers,
Andrew
Quote from: Ruffy on June 01, 2015, 05:14:20 AM
Just to take a different tack, check that the little metal tab highlighted hasn't worn out. I had one with wear and the gear would only engage intermittently. It had worn a little groove just near the curve, maybe take a closer photo of the tab for us?
Cheers,
Andrew
Ruffy, roger that. Will take a closer look and pic of that tab area.
Others...i like hearing what you're saying in this thread!
I get both your viewpoints. It reminds me of my 100 year old house back in NC. It had a Jackson water heater in it. When it finally rusted out, the replacement came with some code upgrades needed for installation so I let a pro handle it.
He came in and the first thing he said was "a Jackson!?!" ...in amazement...not knowing, I had to ask and got the rest of the story.
Jackson, the man, designed, built and sold better a water heater. They outlasted every other brand. Tastes, change, vogue comes and goes, Jacksons keep on going. He put himself out of business with "too good" of a product. Mine was 70 years old.
Still debating what to do with the reel. I did find all the needed parts under one roof- dadsoletackle- and may rebuild it.
Or just buy some flashy, orange, blue or metallic green, new reel and toss this one in the bin...... :-\ ;D
Got ya John, I understand you from the sales point of view and I do realize that marketing is key for the manufacturer. We have beat this pretty much do death. So no sense beating a dead horse. I'm just glad I'm not one of those consumers.
T-REX ;D Joe
Dad's Old Tackle is a good source.
I like the "plastic" part, so far I have never had to replace one and I work on close to as many ABU's as Penn reels.
Something went wrong on this reel, was it overloaded? Is the shaft or ID of the pinion gear worn enough to allow the gear to flop on the shaft. Are the pinion gear teeth mushroomed and acting like a saw?
I have a Diawa counterbalanced handle arm with a ball handle on one of my C4's, all of my AR bearing ABU's also have AR dogs.
Something "went wrong" with this reel? ???.....you mean ... like the angler? :'( ;D Was it overloaded? ::) Do you mean over filled with line or maybe casting too much weight ....like 6-8 ounces of massive donkey choker sized carp pack bait? Seems I recall in 2009 when this reel was being used on a carp rod with a rather large "bomb bait" on it and maybe it went "ZZZzzzzzeeeerrrrrrzzzzz......screeeeeeeel"....or something like that on a particular cast. Could be the yoke failed on that cast and allowed the pinion and main gears to do some angry interactions together. This particular pic was taken with an iPad and gives poor resolution. I will look at the reel this evening and take a macro shot or two with my Olympus. i don't recall any mushroomed gears or other pinion gear or main gear damages. But I'm a total rookie at this. It could be more than a damaged yoke.
John is exactly right about the marketing aspect, of course.
However, there is one more thing -- and it is partially our fault...
John mentioned the Penn Baja Special -- which is basically the same as the US Senator.
Did not sell well -- because it looked old fashioned possibly -- not enough pizzazz.
Even though it had nearly every feature we have been advocating for years -- and is a very high quality and durable reel capable of high drag with lots of SS upgrades.
How many of us own one of these? -- or how many of us advocate how good these reels are?
Versa CF geared drags, SS gears, double dogs, double spring eccentric, SS stand, one piece aluminum frame, 6 bearings, aluminum spool, metal click star in later versions, and much more -- all at a low price point for what we receive.
But a lot of us are individualists -- and like the satisfaction and accomplishment of building better reels. But we are not the mainstream -- the consumers are.
Companies have to stay in business -- and Penn has been responsive to ideas and proven components. A few companies out there, like Penn, deserve our praise and support.
Maybe the US Senator will sell better worldwide -- since the name Baja Special is fairly limited and identified with the Southern California and Mexican fishing grounds.
A lot of marketing and promoting is perception. Same old candy bar -- new wrapper.
Best,
Fred
A lot of marketing and promoting is perception. Same old candy bar -- new wrapper. you got that right....except we ALL know the candy bar is shrinking every year with that fancy new wrapper. And then they switch the weight from ounces to grams so it even sounds like you're getting more. pffft!
i will check the pinion gear to shaft fit for wallowing, wobble, play as well as the tab area tonight. Then decide what direction to go with this one. I have 2 mint C-4's, one with me here, one stays in Alaska at the lodge where I go each year. I have nearly half my rods and reels up there for just the annual - one week of hard fishing. But I don't have to haul them back and forth, nor pay the airline fees of doing so. My tackle gets cleaned at the end of each trip and stored in a Bazooka tube and in a dry bag duffle up in the lodge garage rafters. If something needs more attention, I will bring it home for repairs or replacement.
Even the C-3's, 4's, 7000's or which ever brand "old school round" casting reel is getting pushed aside by the marketing of the new "sleeker low profile super duper" models. And yes, I'm a consumer who will buy those, too. I just bought an Abu Orra2 Inshore with a power handle to go with me to AK this fall. ::)
Quote from: Steve-O on June 01, 2015, 07:11:46 AM
Quote from: Ruffy on June 01, 2015, 05:14:20 AM
Just to take a different tack, check that the little metal tab highlighted hasn't worn out. I had one with wear and the gear would only engage intermittently. It had worn a little groove just near the curve, maybe take a closer photo of the tab for us?
Cheers,
Andrew
Ruffy, roger that. Will take a closer look and pic of that tab area.
Others...i like hearing what you're saying in this thread!
I get both your viewpoints. It reminds me of my 100 year old house back in NC. It had a Jackson water heater in it. When it finally rusted out, the replacement came with some code upgrades needed for installation so I let a pro handle it.
He came in and the first thing he said was "a Jackson!?!" ...in amazement...not knowing, I had to ask and got the rest of the story.
Jackson, the man, designed, built and sold better a water heater. They outlasted every other brand. Tastes, change, vogue comes and goes, Jacksons keep on going. He put himself out of business with "too good" of a product. Mine was 70 years old.
Still debating what to do with the reel. I did find all the needed parts under one roof- dadsoletackle- and may rebuild it.
Or just buy some flashy, orange, blue or metallic green, new reel and toss this one in the bin...... :-\ ;D
Believe it or not.... :D....right out of High School I worked as a Plumber in new construction from laying the pipes under the floor joists (water, drains and gas...abs/pvc to copper and galvie pipe) to finish plumbing putting in sinks and bathrooms etc.
I will tell you virtually no home owner wants to commit 2 brain cells into a water heater design. They do care about energy efficiency, ie the day to day cost of operation because they have to deal with that....but not a one wants to spend the extra for a water heater that will live longer than they will...it is all out of sight and out of mind as long as they have hot water while they are still kicking...
And the vast majority are sold to building companies that are building new tract homes and you can be sure they care about price pretty much exclusively (the plumber with low bid got the job).
There is a lesson there....because homeowners and plumbers (like fisherman) have a lot of other expenses to keep the ship afloat...and reasonable choices have to be made as to what is invested in... ;).
You might want to try putting some lighter oil in there instead of grease. I think the thick grease can gum up the mechanism making it stick.
Quote from: johndtuttle on June 01, 2015, 06:21:41 PM
Quote from: Steve-O on June 01, 2015, 07:11:46 AM
Quote from: Ruffy on June 01, 2015, 05:14:20 AM
Just to take a different tack, check that the little metal tab highlighted hasn't worn out. I had one with wear and the gear would only engage intermittently. It had worn a little groove just near the curve, maybe take a closer photo of the tab for us?
Cheers,
Andrew
Ruffy, roger that. Will take a closer look and pic of that tab area.
Others...i like hearing what you're saying in this thread!
I get both your viewpoints. It reminds me of my 100 year old house back in NC. It had a Jackson water heater in it. When it finally rusted out, the replacement came with some code upgrades needed for installation so I let a pro handle it.
He came in and the first thing he said was "a Jackson!?!" ...in amazement...not knowing, I had to ask and got the rest of the story.
Jackson, the man, designed, built and sold better a water heater. They outlasted every other brand. Tastes, change, vogue comes and goes, Jacksons keep on going. He put himself out of business with "too good" of a product. Mine was 70 years old.
Still debating what to do with the reel. I did find all the needed parts under one roof- dadsoletackle- and may rebuild it.
Or just buy some flashy, orange, blue or metallic green, new reel and toss this one in the bin...... :-\ ;D
Believe it or not.... :D....right out of High School I worked as a Plumber in new construction from laying the pipes under the floor joists (water, drains and gas...abs/pvc to copper and galvie pipe) to finish plumbing putting in sinks and bathrooms etc.
I will tell you virtually no home owner wants to commit 2 brain cells into a water heater design. They do care about energy efficiency, ie the day to day cost of operation because they have to deal with that....but not a one wants to spend the extra for a water heater that will live longer than they will...it is all out of sight and out of mind as long as they have hot water while they are still kicking...
And the vast majority are sold to building companies that are building new tract homes and you can be sure they care about price pretty much exclusively (the plumber with low bid got the job).
There is a lesson there....because homeowners and plumbers (like fisherman) have a lot of other expenses to keep the ship afloat...and reasonable choices have to be made as to what is invested in... ;).
John: Just as I thought we were finished you drew me back in. I was in the construction industry since I was 14 years old, from carpentry to plumbing, then into the Army Engineers. from there to heavy construction until I completed College much later in life. Then it was civil engineering until that last few years of my working carrier and then it was Land Development Manager For the Lennar Corp. So what you are talking about here is spot on...I'm sad to say. People can learn though,if you keep on trying to educate them. There will always be those that do listen. Big business has taken over the brain game today,but it's up to people like us to educate them in the finer things in life.
It's okay to develop new ideas but don't forget how we got here. That is what has made us successful.
Well, I went and ordered a "plastic" pinion yoke from dads ole tackle for a buck and a half plus the 3 buck shipping. No local reel parts shops around. This reel has been in my bin (and there's only two others in the bin :o) for years and just needed something done to it. Either repair and fish it. Repair and sell it, (which I may do ) or toss it back in the bin.
So I have the yoke en route and will have a repaired, ready to fish again reel ...however the greatest gain has been the experience of going through it and hearing the commentary on this and the Revo NaCl reel tutorial threads. Plastic vs metal yoke friendly discussions were a class A education for me. I've opened and redone a handful of Penns and before joining the AT family, fished and thought reels were some kind of magical, mechanical, marvel of a winch and had no business looking under the hood to see how that magic happened. Now I'm glad I did.
The two sides of Plastic vs Metal yoke coin also has a coin edge ground wherein lies the thin ground of "the one is better than the other and then the other is better than the one".
I'll have to say for my part the rotating saw pinion gear cutting away on a plastic yoke tips me over to the metal yoke side of the coin. In the reel-ality of the reel world the weight and cost effective solution is gonna land on the plastic yoke side of the coin more times than not, IMO. At least in the low cost, competitive, mainstream consumer's market.
My solution suggestion?....maybe use some super duper Titanium ceramic polymer to make the yoke and other plastic parts out of....that's cheap to manufacture and problem solved. I mean like Scotty of Star Trek fame came back in time to give an engineer the formula for "transparent Aluminum" ....then why not some chemist come up with the above hardened, frictionless "plastic" ....for a buck and a half per piece?
Oh the bother... ::)
Meanwhile, I'll have a yoke in a week and a good as new reel to fish with or sell.
Quote from: Steve-O on June 02, 2015, 03:41:29 PM
Well, I went and ordered a "plastic" pinion yoke from dads ole tackle for a buck and a half plus the 3 buck shipping. No local reel parts shops around. This reel has been in my bin (and there's only two others in the bin :o) for years and just needed something done to it. Either repair and fish it. Repair and sell it, (which I may do ) or toss it back in the bin.
So I have the yoke en route and will have a repaired, ready to fish again reel ...however the greatest gain has been the experience of going through it and hearing the commentary on this and the Revo NaCl reel tutorial threads. Plastic vs metal yoke friendly discussions were a class A education for me. I've opened and redone a handful of Penns and before joining the AT family, fished and thought reels were some kind of magical, mechanical, marvel of a winch and had no business looking under the hood to see how that magic happened. Now I'm glad I did.
The two sides of Plastic vs Metal yoke coin also has a coin edge ground wherein lies the thin ground of "the one is better than the other and then the other is better than the one".
I'll have to say for my part the rotating saw pinion gear cutting away on a plastic yoke tips me over to the metal yoke side of the coin. In the reel-ality of the reel world the weight and cost effective solution is gonna land on the plastic yoke side of the coin more times than not, IMO. At least in the low cost, competitive, mainstream consumer's market.
My solution suggestion?....maybe use some super duper Titanium ceramic polymer to make the yoke and other plastic parts out of....that's cheap to manufacture and problem solved. I mean like Scotty of Star Trek fame came back in time to give an engineer the formula for "transparent Aluminum" ....then why not some chemist come up with the above hardened, frictionless "plastic" ....for a buck and a half per piece?
Oh the bother... ::)
Meanwhile, I'll have a yoke in a week and a good as new reel to fish with or sell.
Yea, well I guess I want to expand on this a little because I think the issue is more complicated from a technical standpoint than we have been willing to entertain so far.
I guess I feel that Sal et al are comparing the metal yokes to these nylon/delrin ones in an Apples to Apples sort of way but it really is Apples to Oranges.
A Penn Senator uses a simple flat stamped piece of brass:
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/haugusnord/12_113_zpsfd3lrtdt.jpg) (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/haugusnord/media/12_113_zpsfd3lrtdt.jpg.html)
A Daiwa Lexa (for an example that I had a photo of) the Yoke is a more complex and thicker part:
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/haugusnord/P1030065_zpsjdbmftin.jpg) (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/haugusnord/media/P1030065_zpsjdbmftin.jpg.html)
And this is what I was getting at above. Not shown is the backside of the nylon yoke that also has a more complicated shape than a simple flat, stamped out part. It also slides differently and has to have a low co-efficient of friction. The below image is taken from the Revo Tutorial but the idea is that those steep ramps have to slide freely and the nylon material helps.
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/haugusnord/P1020549_zpsfc07ad6a.jpg) (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/haugusnord/media/P1020549_zpsfc07ad6a.jpg.html)
Ultimately the point being is that the more complex shape cannot be stamped out for pennies each, it would have to be molded thickly like the nylon part. Well, then it gets quite heavy and more costly and for what? All the part does is kick the pinion upward. The gears are cut in such a way that the main drives the pinon onto the spool so there is no force whatsoever on the yoke during operation (unless the reel is overloaded in some way or there is a failure of maintenance that causes it to hang up).
As well if it does hang up on the pinion like the OP's I would rather see the $1.50 yoke get torn up than the pinion and the reel still function...
Regardless, I am just trying to say that "make it out of metal" is not as simple as it would appear at first glance if we only use the Senator as our frame of reference.
I think Keta's experience that the part very rarely has trouble is very valuable.
I believe that Abu, Daiwa, Shimano and Okuma et al are using these nylon yokes because they function and are a lightweight solution to a complicated engineering problem, far more complicated than a Senator yoke.
best
Thicker because it is plastic,and more complicated by design. Just sayin ;D
Quote from: Reel 224 on June 02, 2015, 06:10:56 PM
Thicker because it is plastic,and more complicated by design. Just sayin ;D
Absolutely correct.
It's a solution to the "Thumb Clutch Levers" they all have adopted. It uses a rotation of the internals rather than a sliding eccentric plate like a Senator et al because the rotational mechanism is a more compact engineering. You don't need the "throw length" of the plate like in a Senator as this mechanism rotates around a central axis rather than having to slide.
There is no question that if the goal was ultimate reliability when stranded on a desert island was the goal then we would all be using our Baja Specials for decades....
But we are talking about reels for all day light tackle casting (thumb button so nice) the biggest ones weigh something like 10-11 oz overall (the bass sized reels are only 7oz!)...as compared to a Baja that weighs 4 times as much (literally at 30oz).
best
I removed my last comment, I believe this is getting dragged too far. ;D
Quote from: Alto Mare on June 02, 2015, 07:42:05 PM
I removed my last comment, I believe this is getting dragged too far. ;D
Thanks for all your input. For my part the education was worth way more than any "beating of a dead horse" or " agree to disagree" rebuttals.
I may have been fishing for decades but opening reels is still new to me and pun intended here -I'm a REEL dummy.
My
Total time logged in: 4 days, 19 hours and 20 minutes. should say plenty right there.
Steve, I've seen some of your work, I'm sure you could teach us a few things ;).
Well as I started to say before, I am glad we are having this discussion about plastic over mettle parts, especially when Sal and Fred get into the mix, there opinions are important and help me understand the different views on the importance of the use of these parts as applied in the earlier reels. John has given me a lot more insight on the reel manufacturing points of view and design applications from a cost and production aspect,supply and demand as well. I may not agree with all of the viewpoints made but that's not important what is important her is the discussion about fishing reels. ;D
The yoke arrived and in it went. Can't believe how fast I can open, service and button up a round Abu reel now. After closing the C3 I Opened my 6500 Black Max to have a look see. Looking good under the hood. Some bushings instead of bearings. Minor cleaning, mostly dried Carp slime on the outside. Back together...total time 20 -25 mins.
I put a 36mm aluminum power knob on my C3 handle since the shafts of the original were wallowed wobbly. Matches up nicely. Cast it a few times in the back yard. The bearings whir a bit but it casts well and the bum yoke was the only issue. Now to hook into some big Carp again with it. ;D
Glad everything worked out Steve-O.Show us some pictures of some Carp now.
Quote from: Reel 224 on June 07, 2015, 12:41:28 AM
Glad everything worked out Steve-O.Show us some pictures of some Carp now.
Thanks. That WAS the plan this afternoon but the nap took a chunk out of my carp session. Rebuilt my swamp cooler with my neighbor's assistance and that burned a couple three hours, too. New pads, new pump, some major cleaning, etc.
So I had a short drive north and took my new Abu Orra2 Inshore baitcaster and the C3 with a new big ball handle knob on it. Missed two takes on the C3 while flipping bread crusts in the other direction. Sight casting or guessing where they might be is fun. Yanked in one 14# fattie common and pulled out my phone for a pic to find it had shut off in my pocket. Super big storm came up with high winds and lightning before the rain. Made casting freelined bead crust a challenge to say the least. Packed it in after the one and the rain hit for the 15 mile drive home.
Monday is my next window.
Quote from: Steve-O on June 07, 2015, 04:54:24 AM
Quote from: Reel 224 on June 07, 2015, 12:41:28 AM
Glad everything worked out Steve-O.Show us some pictures of some Carp now.
Thanks. That WAS the plan this afternoon but the nap took a chunk out of my carp session. Rebuilt my swamp cooler with my neighbor's assistance and that burned a couple three hours, too. New pads, new pump, some major cleaning, etc.
So I had a short drive north and took my new Abu Orra2 Inshore baitcaster and the C3 with a new big ball handle knob on it. Missed two takes on the C3 while flipping bread crusts in the other direction. Sight casting or guessing where they might be is fun. Yanked in one 14# fattie common and pulled out my phone for a pic to find it had shut off in my pocket. Super big storm came up with high winds and lightning before the rain. Made casting freelined bead crust a challenge to say the least. Packed it in after the one and the rain hit for the 15 mile drive home.
Monday is my next window.
Steve-O I know exactly what you mean, since I have had my pass to fish the Naval pier here......which is an outstanding place to fish. I have only had time to get out there three times. Bad weather and bad timing with the tides has made it a bust, that and the weather temperature and water has made it tough for us so far. Still waiting to see some of those Carp bro. ;D