Here's some ideas of what you can do. Both of these caught fish. Homemade. Just saying.🧜♂️
Butt to be honest the first one is a Spinnow Minnow, it was rigged with a treble hook and side swing....
Cut it apart and re did the hooks. Don't be afraid to try something different. Just saying......
These are slim and with bait stripes sink fast and are good for medium every thing.
Life is short, go fishing.🧞♂️
Lots of stuff going on with those jigs.
Have you thought about tying in one of these? ;D ;D ;D
But seriously, thanks for sharing a bit of your hard earned knowledge. Those Kodiak jigs are kinda interesting. Do the have much action? I think there might be a way to tweak the design to get a faster drop and a bit more swing on the lift.
-J
Those lures are alluring Mr. Buttman. :D Keep at it. Dominick
I,m not sure if the kodiak slanty ends allow any flutter. Butt they are fairly popular up here.
These both have caught fish on different days. Some days they will out fish bait.
Dave and Dom, it's always more fun to fish your homade jigs as you may have known, Butt I'm not anymore afraid 😟 of putting on the kitchen sink, Oar even the table and chairs to find success.🧜♀️
The big green head is one of mine, repainted, 19 ounces. I want to re melt it and recast it with a shorter eye, It's from a plaster mold.
The slimmer jigs may sink faster? Butt you need the weight to keep down. Sometimes you want to walk the jig back in the flow to cover more ground. It's more work, butt fun.🤦♀️
Those jigs you have there would I believe work well for Flathead... Jeff
Below 120- 150 feet in seawater the colors change and I'm not sure what is the best colors nor does it matter? I've been using darker colors butt if I remember right the "hardy boy" has had success with a white or cream color? That's going to be next. Thanks for your comments. ;)
Quote from: gstours on August 10, 2020, 02:55:30 PM
Below 120- 150 feet in seawater the colors change and I'm not sure what is the best colors nor does it matter? I've been using darker colors butt if I remember right the "hardy boy" has had success with a white or cream color? That's going to be next. Thanks for your comments. ;)
I have been wanting to share what I have read up on this topic, but it is hard to get into a post or two.
The bottom line is that in the particulant rich water at the higher latitude environment(sun is coming in at an angle) that you fish in, most colors are filtered out in the first 15-20 feet. There is some bio-luminescence going on throughout the water column, but these light sources are generally quite small and not very powerful.
If red light waves do not make to the depth where your red jig is working, it means that that the red pigment in the jig that reflects red light waves (and absorbs all others) will have nothing to reflect, and the jig will appear as black. Same for any other colors. Also, in order for light to be useful for an eye/brain to make visual sense of, it has to be mostly directional. When light waves hit the water, they will be bent, and some will bounce off of whatever particles they randomly bump into, changing direction (diffusion). So things get pretty murky pretty fast when light waves are ricocheting around.
Generally speaking, the fish that get to eat the most will be the one that is the first to make out prey shapes in a murky environment, with very low light. This means that the eyes are mostly populated with highly sensitive (but not very specific) rod receptors that will respond to a larger range of frequencies (colors) at a wind range of amplitude (power). This comes at the expense of sharper vision with good depth reception and color separation.
So what you are looking for is contrast and profile. A dark jig will have more contrast if the fish is looking up, a light jig for fish looking down, and looking sideways is a function of depth and background. If something is moving around like a prey item, and the basic profile matches up, your chances of getting bit are about as good as they are going to be. Now it may be that a white jig is harder for a halibut to see, but it looks more like a sick octopus, which triggers a more aggressive feeding response. So nothing is 100%
Glow will make the jig visible, but it usually will not look like any prey that the fish is keying on. So I don't know what to say here. I have wondered if some subtle glow highlights might work better (just enough to enhance the profile), but we tend to go crazy with the stuff when we use it.
There are a lot of other factors that go into fish vision (speed, acuity, rod cone/layout, etc.). In some ways, color is the least important aspect of vision for many gamefish species.
The color and paint job often primarily serves the purpose of catching fishermen.
But nothing wrong with doing what we enjoy and gives us confidence. I always put my nicest looking jig on when fishing is slow. Can't help myself :)
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on August 11, 2020, 05:29:23 AM
Quote from: gstours on August 10, 2020, 02:55:30 PM
Below 120- 150 feet in seawater the colors change and I'm not sure what is the best colors nor does it matter? I've been using darker colors butt if I remember right the "hardy boy" has had success with a white or cream color? That's going to be next. Thanks for your comments. ;)
I have been wanting to share what I have read up on this topic, but it is hard to get into a post or two.
The bottom line is that in the particulant rich water at the higher latitude environment(sun is coming in at an angle) that you fish in, most colors are filtered out in the first 15-20 feet. There is some bio-luminescence going on throughout the water column, but these light sources are generally quite small and not very powerful.
If red light waves do not make to the depth where your red jig is working, it means that that the red pigment in the jig that reflects red light waves (and absorbs all others) will have nothing to reflect, and the jig will appear as black. Same for any other colors. Also, in order for light to be useful for an eye/brain to make visual sense of, it has to be mostly directional. When light waves hit the water, they will be bent, and some will bounce off of whatever particles they randomly bump into, changing direction (diffusion). So things get pretty murky pretty fast when light waves are ricocheting around.
Generally speaking, the fish that get to eat the most will be the one that is the first to make out prey shapes in a murky environment, with very low light. This means that the eyes are mostly populated with highly sensitive (but not very specific) rod receptors that will respond to a larger range of frequencies (colors) at a wind range of amplitude (power). This comes at the expense of sharper vision with good depth reception and color separation.
So what you are looking for is contrast and profile. A dark jig will have more contrast if the fish is looking up, a light jig for fish looking down, and looking sideways is a function of depth and background. If something is moving around like a prey item, and the basic profile matches up, your chances of getting bit are about as good as they are going to be. Now it may be that a white jig is harder for a halibut to see, but it looks more like a sick octopus, which triggers a more aggressive feeding response. So nothing is 100%
Glow will make the jig visible, but it usually will not look like any prey that the fish is keying on. So I don't know what to say here. I have wondered if some subtle glow highlights might work better (just enough to enhance the profile), but we tend to go crazy with the stuff when we use it.
There are a lot of other factors that go into fish vision (speed, acuity, rod cone/layout, etc.). In some ways, color is the least important aspect of vision for many gamefish species.
The color and paint job often primarily serves the purpose of catching fishermen.
But nothing wrong with doing what we enjoy and gives us confidence. I always put my nicest looking jig on when fishing is slow. Can't help myself :)
-J
Interesting read! Thanks for sharing!
I was watching a few youtube videos last night from a bait makers channel and he was replicating an old school lure. He also made the reflection that especially modern lures are more designed to catch fishermen than fish. Not that they won't catch fish, but that a large portion of the design and paint scheme is aimed at buyers and not fish. He felt that old school lures was more honest "fishing machines" designed to catch fish.
Thanks again for sharing your information, I've been wondering about the colors and have seen some good catches with the glow skirts and paint heads. Butt it does seem unnatural.. I've experimented with led lights in jigs as well, And need more time to really say.
Sometimes just luck, can be another factor and blow your mind back to wondering!
I do agree that contrast is a key here. Without bait on the jig, very little attention is given by my fish.
Scented oils and gels are always added every time before the drop. I,m thinking this may be almost as important as bait. The fish smells it and becomes interested immediately.
This green tube one is 20 ounces and a copy of a friends hottest jig. Duplicated the best i could do.
certain fish and mollusks ie squid and octopi can be bioluminescent- I always like some glow on anything i fish that deep, even if its just the chafe guards to bounce around and get some attention in the dark. my o.o2
So, when I dive, stuff down there all looks grey/blue past 30 ft. to my human eyes. Can they tell, based on anatomical studies, what a fish eye sees?
Sounds like solid colors wouldn't be most visible way down there, but maybe multi-color patterns. Could be movement and silhouette is more important. Then again, the sense of smell as Gary said, has gotta be huge factor...
Quote from: Gfish on August 12, 2020, 04:09:18 PM
So, when I dive, stuff down there all looks grey/blue past 30 ft. to my human eyes. Can they tell, based on anatomical studies, what a fish eye sees?
Sounds like solid colors wouldn't be most visible way down there, but maybe multi-color patterns. Could be movement and silhouette is more important. Then again, the sense of smell as Gary said, has gotta be huge factor...
Some of this was covered in my previous post. There are lots of studies on specific species with lots of differences, but the controlling factors are light penetration and diffusion at depth.
You can only see a color that makes it to your current depth, and only see something as having a specific color if your eyes have cone receptors with a chemical that responds to the frequency (wave length) of that color. If a fish spends most of its life where a color cannot make it, it will not need receptors to pick up that color (with some exceptions for biolumescence).
Blue/violet light waves are closer together than red/yellow waves, so they pack more energy and will travel deeper in clear water. But in nutrient rich inshore water, the blues get absorbed by the algae and stuff, and does not make as deep as the greens. The color of the water will tell you what light is getting absorbed last - e.g. Green inshore water vs. blue offshore water.
This is why inshore species tend to be green, and offshore blue. A blue fish in will appear as as black shape to a predator when no blue light is available, but a green fish will blend in with the background. So over many generations, a predator in this environment evolves its vision to better discern the details of green objects to pick out the camouflaged prey.
Sort of an evolutionary arms race between prey and predator.
As a lure designer, you have a choice to make. If you do a really good job of imitating the image of the prey item, you ar actually making it harder for the predator to find it. Maybe that striper will bite a blue lure better because it stands out more, or maybe it will bite a green lure, because it can generate a clearer image. Or maybe a green lure needs to have a more accurate profile than a blue lure. Lots of variables, but you can cut it down quite a bit with some logic.
Getting back to some random species data: Striped bass which live in estuary and inshore waters, have cones in the eye for multiple colors, but overall will get the strongest signals from green light with a peak right around chartreuse, which is a favorite color for striper flies.
Marlin do have some color receptors, but just one color -blue (I know this is correct for some species of marlin, but not positive for all). The purpose of the receptors is not to get a color image, but to use the cone (color) receptors to generate a clearer image when needed. Cone receptors need a stronger/ clearer signal to fire than general purpose rod receptors. Blue Marlin have the cones distributed more on the top of the eye (I think). This allows them to get a more detailed image when looking up and feeding toward the surface, but a more generalized-deep water setup when looking down.
Some species also move the rods and cones forward and back based on time of day (not ambient light), so the color vision and visual acuity will change throughout the day based on time.
Plus lots of other kooky variations, like having a lens that is reflective on the inside, so that some unused light gets reflected back to the receptors to give them another shot at it. Tarpon have these.
In terms of lures, smell and sound are not highly directional underwater, so they can work as a general attractant, but are only specific guide to the lure when the fish gets close. The lateral line is not discussed much,but it is important for many species. I like to think of it as extended touch, that allows fish to feel surfaces up to something around six feet away by detecting minute changes in water pressure from movement.
Lots of scientific papers on fish vision. The early ones seemed to be focused more on aquarium fish, but the newer stuff has a lot of game fish (especially marlin) and reef fish. Not as much on sound processing and lateral lines, but there are some interesting papers as well. Most are locked up in scientific journals, so you have to get through a paywall if you are not a student or researcher. Lots of good stuff coming out of Australia on vision.
I have to stop now before I get into light wave/particle duality. Probably not many folks still reading :)
-J
Read every word, sir. I, (when I was paying attention) understood red to be most visible at depth. But my favorite swimbait colors are root beer with gold flake and white glow.
It's fun to play with colors when pouring swim baits, so the color chart goes out the window.
Thanks for the information about the colors , rods, and cones. I,m here to learn. It seems to me that contrast might be the key to this underwater guessing game. I,ve seen some good catches with the creme glow in the dark skirts, tails, and painted jig heads and thought the fish might see this "thing" as prey, or food and that visibility or at least getting noticed was upping your chances. Most of my bait rigs have some glow on the skirts. Many octipus skirts have at least a glow portion around the eyes on the head.
Here is a good producing jig for our halibuts. Its got contrast of blue and white skirt butt is basic black with some silver tiny sparkles on the lead. This has me wondering again.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/p660/gst6814/GOPR1732_Moment(15).jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/gst6814/p/eb1410be-87a2-4d27-8c34-3c03a5a3fe67)
We are told that greens and blues and possibly black are the last colors to be seen as the water depth increases, at least what i remember.
Red is catchy to human eyes and shallower water fish and catches my eye butt is faded out about 10 fathoms?
Much of the tackle we buy is designed to catch the pocketbook, butt as I make most of my tackle ive learned getting the wallet out is the easy part. When you paint and rig your tackle now you have some more important decisions to make.
Its fun to improve your tackle thru time and testing and adds another dimension to "just going fishing" ;)
Here,s another good fish released from the black kodiak clone with a blue ans white skirt. Sorry Wayne these are harbor freight pliers shown.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/p660/gst6814/GOPR1732_Moment(8).jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/gst6814/p/8c1aa389-b03c-4684-956b-010176573b04)
Quote from: gstours on August 13, 2020, 02:59:47 PM
Sorry Wayne these are harbor freight pliers shown.
Sha... DANG Gary!!!
And I purchased a new pair of Craftsman 8" slip joint pliers just for you when I bent the old pliers you had on the USS Maiko when we were haul'n up BIG Halibut during our first visit.
5 Fish over 200 lbs. then the monster Dominick caught - 325 lbs. Put the Tank to work for sure,
How's the crop of wild strawberries in your back yard - by back yard I mean the wilderness forest 30 feet behind your home!!!!!!
Wayne
Did someone say strawberries 🍓? I am happy to share with the furry ones. We got quite a few butt now it's raspberry time.
I have lost a few pliers and your craftsman ones are in my shop safe and sound waiting for your arrival.
Best of luck to everyone down there. Be safe. Thanks.
Quote from: gstours on August 13, 2020, 02:50:44 PM
We are told that greens and blues and possibly black are the last colors to be seen as the water depth increases, at least what i remember.
Black is the absense of any reflected light. Light waves of all frequency are absorbed. That is why a black object gets hotter when you leave it out the sun. Black doesn't fade out, it is more like if everything is completely dark around a black object, then we have black on black and see nothing. But even a white object cannot reflect light if there is no light to reflect.
It is important to remember that an object has no inherent color. The paint on your red jig contains a pigment with a chemical that will not absorb light waves in part of the red frequency range. So if a red light wave from the sun manages to hit the jig, bounce off and then miraculously hits a bullseye on a cone cell in your eye that contains a chemical that absorbs that same red frequency, your brain says - "aha-Red". Then another part of your brain says, " buy this jig" ;).
Quote
Red is catchy to human eyes and shallower water fish and catches my eye butt is faded out about 10 fathoms?
More like two fathoms in your waters. Mid-day at the equator in very clear sea water you might get 4 fathoms. Note Greg's post about diving (presumably in Hawaii). I have done a bit of diving myself, and without a flashlight, it is all just blue and violet at 50-60 feet in the best situation. As you get deeper, it is all just shades of gray.
I couldn't find much on Pacific halibut vision, but I would expect that they have no color vision at all, a very slow sample/ refresh rate, and extremely sensitive, but not very specific cone cells. So it will all be blurry shapes to a halibut, but they probably will have some triggers for certain shape/motion patterns that indicate a high likelihood of prey. Lots of things moving around in the water, but there'll be something different about a crab scurrying around vs. a couple rocks and some seaweed swaying. A halibut can't spend all of its time spitting out rocks until it finds a crab.
I did find one paper that stated that pacific halibut eyes are very light sensitive. They found that if you exposed a halibut to direct sunlight on deck for fifteen minutes, the vision would be permanently damaged. Your tax dollars at work :)
Quote
Much of the tackle we buy is designed to catch the pocketbook, butt as I make most of my tackle ive learned getting the wallet out is the easy part. When you paint and rig your tackle now you have some more important decisions to make.
Its fun to improve your tackle thru time and testing and adds another dimension to "just going fishing" ;)
Agree. You learn a lot more. If a jig is working well, it is time to try something new. I always tell folks that designing lures is a great way to catch less fish And if you are still catching too many fish, take up fly fishing ;D
-J
Here's two complete jigs that were tested in the same tide. The white on got-hits every drop. And was heavier than needed, butt it's only a test. Was the color persuasive? Much has to do with luck and timing. You can't catch a fish if there's no fish there? Right? Maybe I'll be able to test more.
Heaven can wait. ;)
Quote from: gstours on August 15, 2020, 05:38:24 PM
Here's two complete jigs that were tested in the same tide. The white on got-hits every drop. And was heavier than needed, butt it's only a test. Was the color persuasive? Much has to do with luck and timing. You can't catch a fish if there's no fish there? Right? Maybe I'll be able to test more.
Heaven can wait. ;)
Good stuff!
I see:
Heavier, reversed skirt, and a head shape that will kick up more mud when dragged along the bottom. Dark will have more contrast when fish is looking up,but white will show better in a cloud of mud.
Like you say, so many variables. I think that is why ther are so many superstitions. Folks trying to minimize the variables by making everything the same. Same number of drinks in the cooler, with the labels facing the same way, lucky underwear, jacket zipped up the same amount... :)
And if the fish are not right under your jig, even the right jig and you lucky underwear won't save you :)
-J
Thanks Gary, interesting post, Gee Wayne how could you brake a pair of pliers, did you have weeties for breakfast, they must have been older than the red cooler, thanks again Gary, cheers Don.
Here's another imitation of the kodiak jig. Fairly inexpensive to dyi. About 9 oz.
And this one was expected to be a heavy hitter, butt haven't caught anything with it yet?
Now I,m starting to get superstitious? Ha ha. >:( :o. Maybe next time?
Quote from: gstours on August 19, 2020, 05:04:33 PM
And this one was expected to be a heavy hitter, butt haven't caught anything with it yet?
Now I,m starting to get superstitious? Ha ha. >:( :o. Maybe next time?
Have you tried rubbing it on your lucky red cooler :).
A lot of skirt on that jig. More skirt displaces more water, but jiggles less. So many variables to mess with.
-J
Thanks Dave for your views. Some things in life are oxymoron, like less is more.
When my wife sees me in the kitchen kooking. I,m generally reminded. Now let talk fishing 🎣.
The skirt was part of the jig to make everything larger, 🤔 more size, more colors, more contrast, more visible and sudden interest in attracting a nice fish to strike. I do agree mabee go back to a less bushy lure design. Maybe?
The weight of the lead head makes a fairly heavy jig for its length. Versus 🆚 a minnow type, if got some more ideas butt I still want to catch fish. There's only so much time in a fishing day!
Butt rub the jig on the red cooler first? 🥁 More things to try!🤓
Sounds like the weather is hot down there. Stay safe in the garage.🍺
These are pretty basic. Butt made for shallow water oar slack tide. Fish move, you got to be ready.
Both of these have caught a few dinners. Small fish seem to hit them a lot. About 25% get caught.
Maybe it's the day, tide, season, maybe they are baby 🍼 lures ?
Here is the standard octipus. Not much contrast or bling. It works about the best in this color and skirt, always a bait strip is attatched on the hooks. butt more testing is planned.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/p660/gst6814/.highres/GOPR1718_Moment2_zps52idqkdi.jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/gst6814/p/e684d8eb-2202-4946-81f9-67212741b52e)
This pattern is from a silicone mold generated by Dave and his computer. Thanks again Dave :-*
There is very little diversity in my life and, like the fish, I'm a creature of habit. I always fish in two to six feet of water late in the day. The water is clear and if it is the least bit murky then there is no use in going because the fish will not be there. I gave up trying to find a color that works better than others. Then I spent years just trying to figure out if dark color (olive drab) is better or worse than white. Gave up on that too. For the fish I'm after, the only thing that seems to matter is profile (crustacean-like) and how the jig is worked along the bottom (short hops).
-steve
While I find this interesting I agree with Steve. I've used jigs of some sort for catfish many years. For catfish of all 3 species color seems to me to be least important. Action, depth & size are by far the most important factors I have found with the catfish in the rivers I fish. In clear water catfish may respond different. I know their eyesight is very good even when it gets dark & there is light from the moon or any other natural source.
Call me crazy but I believe catfish can see color I have no proof other than what I've observed over the years. I dont believe all fish see color.... but some in shades of grey ?? Any one know for sure ?
Heavy jigs can be tiring and less fun, so I try to use only one that will not take off in the drift.
A couple more here that are ho made. Rigged lite. These are about 8 ounces.
The other day I got a chance to fish with some friends. I was watching of course, and several people had these white jigs. It was a game of chance, butt these fish pictured were not on my rod. Darn it...
Learning takes time. Butt learning is living. Fish till you drop.🐟
So here is a graph from NOAA that shows the effect of water clarity on which colors penetrate the farthest:
(https://alantani.com/gallery/33/11927_21_08_20_5_10_01.jpeg)
I believe that the long bars on the right of each graph shows the color of the water as it would appear at the surface, based on depth. At a couple inches depth, most water will look colorless, but coastal water will tend to get greener as depth increases, and clear ocean water will will get bluer. Green and blue are not the only options. The same thing will happen with water that contains much more sediment, but then the greens are also wiped out quickly, so you get a reddish brown. The color of the water will tell you what colors are visible to the greatest depth.
It is important to note that the amount of each color of light continuously decreases with depth, so when you see a color visible to 30 meters, that means that 1% of light waves of that color's frequency made it to 30 meters. 1% percent is better than nothing, but it is not a lot.
Also, the shallower the angle that the light hits the water at, the more light gets reflected off the water and is not available to penetrate. So for water of equal clarity, the most light will penetrate at the equator in midday, and the least in far northern or southern latitudes early or late in the day. And then add in the nutrient rich water in your neighborhood, and it is no wonder why tipping the jigs with bait is common. The halibut have to search with their smell, then the lateral line. Eyeballing the jig is just the final step. Unless you manage to bonk one on the drop :)
I think the graph is useful as a starting point, but based on local conditions, the specific penetrations will vary a quite a bit, usually for the worse.
At the risk of repeating myself, color vision is one of the least important aspects of visual predatory behavior in most gamefish, but bringing this up is a bit like breaking the bad news about Santa... Sorry :)
Or at least this is what I gleaned from reading up on it. Not trained in this stuff.
Quote from: gstours on August 22, 2020, 04:51:51 PM
Here is the standard octipus. Not much contrast or bling. It works about the best in this color and skirt, always a bait strip is attatched on the hooks. butt more testing is planned.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/p660/gst6814/.highres/GOPR1718_Moment2_zps52idqkdi.jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/gst6814/p/e684d8eb-2202-4946-81f9-67212741b52e)
This pattern is from a silicone mold generated by Dave and his computer. Thanks again Dave :-*
Wow! That one sure looks super octopus-like. Whatever you were doing for the skirt sure made a nice profile/spread. My guess is that is what the halibut is liking and probably not the color.
-J
Thanks again Dave for sharing your knowledge and experience. By now I can say that I'm a bottom fisherman, 🎣 when we talk jigs we have been spacific about my fishery as we know it.
Mid water is different, everything is different. I appreciate your thoughts.
Upper latitudes as you pointed out have reduced lite waves. Our fish use their abilities to seek food and seem to be spacific as to how they find food. It's not just chance.
For a long time I thought sight was the most important, like when we are on the street or in a restaurant.
Then there is the olfactory sence. This to me is the most important. That's why we use bait, scents, etc.
I've got some evidence that vibration and bottom thudding can be used to induce a feeding.
Many lures are made to sell, luck is good. Getting lucky is better, butt now what do we know?🤔
I hope others can benefit from my drivel, go fishing, test for your self.🏌️♂️