I have a cardinal four and I wanted to try and improve the drag system by upgrading it to carbon fiber drag disc. To my knowledge no one makes a exact replacement set of carbon fiber drag disc for the cardinal 4's or any cardinal reels to the best of my knowledge. If I'm wrong I hope someone will speak up and post where they have gotten them. These did not work for me, but I figured I'd post up what I tried anyways. I started with carbontex drag disc meant for a sedona 4000 reel. I first drilled out the hole in the middle to fit a small bolt through to be able to chuck them in a drill to file them down to right circumference.
Sorry I some how double posted this topic I will just continue on this one. After drilling out the hole on both disc I used a bolt and nut to hold them that I then put in the drill chuck. Used the drill to spin them and held a file against them till I got them down to the circumference of the factory cardinal 4 disc.
After getting them filed down I then used a small round file normally meant touching up a chainsaw chain to file the center hole out to match the oblong hole the factory drags have. They are oblong to keep the disc from spinning when they are in the reel as the metal disc spin and the fiber drag disc stay stationary. The last is a comparison as to what the carbontex drag disc started as and how the two turned out compared to the factory drag disc that are some kind of hard fiber drag disc not sure as to what kind. My drag was kind of sticky to start with that's what prompted this. I took the whole reel apart cleaned and serviced it and figured I'd give making a set drag disc a shot while I was at it.
After getting the holes filed out and pretty darn close to the original disc I did a trial fit over the plastic housing they sit when on the reel. I didn't do a full tutorial on taking the reel apart and putting it back together as Tommy already did a superb tutorial covering it pretty well. The disc fit pretty and wouldn't turn on the plastic housing which is how it's suppose to be since the metal washers in the drag stack have a round center hole allowing them to stay stationary and the carbon disc spin with plastic housing that spins with the pinion.
Sorry I just realized some of my wording is incorrect in how the drag stack works. At either rate the fiber drag disc are suppose to fit well on the plastic piece and mine fit nice and snug over it I thought they would work well. They didn't after getting the reel back together they initially worked but if you increased the drag pressure they then spun over the plastic housing. Whatever the original drag disc is are it's a much harder and a bit thicker material than the carbon fiber allowing to not spin over the plastic housing. The carbon fiber was thin and flexible enough despite my holes being filed correctly and fitting snugly over the plastic they rounded out. Thank fully these disc are pretty darn close in size for a dam 220 drag drag disc I will try and make them work in one I have.
The plastic drag clicker what I was calling the plastic housing the drag stack goes over splines on the spool shaft and turns with it the drag washers have the oblong hole to fit snug over the clicker and turn with it well. The carbontex washer the oblong hole I filed managed to round out once the drag had bit more pressure on it and wouldn't turn with the clicker. So after cleaning the originals and greasing them I reinstalled them. The reels drag is much smoother than it was since I went through and serviced the whole reel but would have been nice if these washer had work as I think they would have made the drag even better. Oh well still a great reel that will give me many years of service and work just fine was just figured I'd give this a shot to try and make a great reel even better.
Great work Andy! I recently fashioned carbon fiber drags to fit some of my reels...a Zebco Rhino conventional, a Daiwa baitcaster, and a DAM Quick 270 Super. They all saw improvement. I fish the Daiwa hard and it is WAY better with carbon fiber than that teflon. One of these days I will pick up a Cardinal...they are awesome! 8)
I recently purchased a Cardinal 4 (ca. 1978 model) that had been fully serviced/upgraded by a Cardinal enthusiast. The reel came with CF drags, and a custom titanium bail wire. The seller offers some of his upgraded parts on Ebay from time-to-time.
John
Good post Handy. I also recently got an"old-old stock" Cardinal 4. Only serious replacement needed was the plastic spool with a hard to see hairline crack. Was really thinkin to do the CF upgrade but you saved me the( needed for learning purposes) experience of failure. If ya come up with a good drag disc replacement method/material, please keep us posted!
Gfish
just love those CARDINAL 3,4,6 AND 7 spinning reels. harryk
I've used the ABU/Zebco & ABU Garcia fulcrum brake Cardinals exclusively since 1970 and have never had any issues with the brake discs being sticky or lurching, but I loosen my brake setting between uses during storage and reset them each time I take them out. That seems to help prevent the the stickiness one sometimes experiences after they have been left snug for long periods.
It's interesting that the CF material used wasn't dense enough to prevent wear inside the holes where they are required to remain stationary on the click washer and rotate with it. I wonder if a a thicker piece of material would retain and hold the shape better?
I totally agree Tommy. If there is space a 1.5mm cf disc should be much stronger. Also the fit of the elliptical hole has to be tight - if its loose wear will result.
The original drag washer may have been laminated material with a hard core.
-steve
Tommy I now will be loosening the drag after each use. I will make disc for a cardinal 3 when I have time to mess with it. CF should work in it without issue being in the 3 the disc have a round center hole. I test fit the washers before assembly to make sure I had a good snug fit. If some one knows of thicker CF disc that could be modified to fit let me know I'd be willing to give it a shot assuming they don't cost a ton.
Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 17, 2017, 06:38:03 PM
I recently purchased a Cardinal 4 (ca. 1978 model) that had been fully serviced/upgraded by a Cardinal enthusiast. The reel came with CF drags, and a custom titanium bail wire. The seller offers some of his upgraded parts on Ebay from time-to-time.
John
you mind sharing a link for this seller as I would be very interested in his drag disc. Thankfully the disc I made I think are pretty close to size of a dam quick 221 drag disc so I will see if I can make them work in the 221 I need to put back together.
Quote from: handyandy on March 22, 2017, 02:21:43 PM
Tommy I now will be loosening the drag after each use. I will make disc for
Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 17, 2017, 06:38:03 PM
I recently purchased a Cardinal 4 (ca. 1978 model) that had been fully serviced/upgraded by a Cardinal enthusiast. The reel came with CF drags, and a custom titanium bail wire. The seller offers some of his upgraded parts on Ebay from time-to-time.
John
you mind sharing a link for this seller as I would be very interested in his drag disc. Thankfully the disc I made I think are pretty close to size of a dam quick 221 drag disc so I will see if I can make them work in the 221 I need to put back together.
Guy's name is Fred Eyer.
His ebay username is: lmsteelhead
I don't have his phone number or personal email.
John
You could try to impregnate the immediate area around hole with some type of liquid hardener. If you are careful it shouldn't effect the main drag surface area.
FYI, IHMO, Fred Eyer is a standup guy.
Thanks for the tips, I'll see if I can send him a message through ebay to try and get a hold of him to see what he has used.
Idea, your thoughts n' opinions please. Fabricate thin metal washers, mirror image of Cardinal 4 drag washers, then fabricate .5 mm carbon fiber washers also same shape as original drag washers, then glue one CF on each side a each metal washer. Upon installation might hav'ta leave out the round spring washer to make it fit. Also, what kinda glue would work on both metal and carbon fiber?
Gfish
Quote from: Gfish on March 23, 2017, 12:17:11 AM
Idea, your thoughts n' opinions please. Fabricate thin metal washers, mirror image of Cardinal 4 drag washers, then fabricate .5 mm carbon fiber washers also same shape as original drag washers, then glue one CF on each side a each metal washer. Upon installation might hav'ta leave out the round spring washer to make it fit. Also, what kinda glue would work on both metal and carbon fiber?
Gfish
Epoxy would do the trick. Gorilla (urethane) might work, too, but it oozes if you're not really careful. Remember, though, that when you laminate that thick of stock you are cutting the drag surfaces at least in half. Here's an adaptation to your idea, sandwich two of the thinnest CF stock with a thin piece of SS, bronze or brass flat sheet in the center. A guy may be able to make them thin enough to keep the original stack layout.
Sounds like a good idea Tommy has with the metal in between for rigidness.
Here is the glue that I use for everything -- it is "Spooky" good...
Just don't get it on your fingers -- you will lose skin in 5 seconds, as it also burns.
TAC Glue is the best ever for metal, ceramic, fiber, brick, rock, wood, almost anything. It will melt some plastics.
It is inexpensive -- because instead of always being hard as a brick after the first use like Super Glue, emblem glue, or 2 part epoxy -- it is always liquid until it is applied to your project. Just keep the cap on when not in use -- mine is 2 years old -- only 5% used up after perhaps 2 dozen uses.
Glass to metal, metal to metal, fiber to metal, wood to metal, rock, ceramic, pretty much whatever.
Wife needed go glue a ceramic Unicorn horn back on that the cat broke.
I sez to her -- I have some great stuff. She sez, no, Amazon sez I should use a special ceramic glue...
OK , sez I...(learned long ago to not disagree with one of HER projects).
$17 later comes a tiny tube of glue from UPS Brown truck?
She carefully glues it, with a fair amount of adult expletives -- and more expletives as it just falls right off after 10 minutes held in place.
She asked me if I still had that stupid reel glue -- I quietly handed her the bottle with a caution about its use (you get one shot -- otherwise that is where it lives -- whether you like it or not).
Two minutes later, the break is stronger than the fired ceramic body that is not broken.
I know better than to say a word -- just let it go, Fred... ;) ;) ;)
Best,
Fred
Good job a lettin it go Fred! Havn't matured enough myself to do that, plus my wife is never wrong(in her mind) so I'd probably do the childish thing and rub it in.
Tommy I musta wrote it funny in my reply post, 'cause what you thought'a sounds like what I's tryin to convey. Unless the 0.5 mm carbon-tex glued on both sides a the fabricated metal washers would be too thick?
Fred, who carries that TAC glue, or do ya gotta order it?
Quote from: foakes on March 23, 2017, 05:44:16 AM
Sounds like a good idea Tommy has with the metal in between for rigidness.
Here is the glue that I use for everything -- it is "Spooky" good...
Just don't get it on your fingers -- you will lose skin in 5 seconds, as it also burns.
TAC Glue is the best ever for metal, ceramic, fiber, brick, rock, wood, almost anything. It will melt some plastics.
It is inexpensive -- because instead of always being hard as a brick after the first use like Super Glue, emblem glue, or 2 part epoxy -- it is always liquid until it is applied to your project. Just keep the cap on when not in use -- mine is 2 years old -- only 5% used up after perhaps 2 dozen uses.
Glass to metal, metal to metal, fiber to metal, wood to metal, rock, ceramic, pretty much whatever.
Wife needed go glue a ceramic Unicorn horn back on that the cat broke.
I sez to her -- I have some great stuff. She sez, no, Amazon sez I should use a special ceramic glue...
OK , sez I...(learned long ago to not disagree with one of HER projects).
$17 later comes a tiny tube of glue from UPS Brown truck?
She carefully glues it, with a fair amount of adult expletives -- and more expletives as it just falls right off after 10 minutes held in place.
She asked me if I still had that stupid reel glue -- I quietly handed her the bottle with a caution about its use (you get one shot -- otherwise that is where it lives -- whether you like it or not).
Two minutes later, the break is stronger than the fired ceramic body that is not broken.
I know better than to say a word -- just let it go, Fred... ;) ;) ;)
Best,
Fred
I've used an industrial strength CA glue for years in my carpentry called 2P10.
For glueing small parts or for use as a clamp while the wood glue sets.
Good and expensive (and it will pull your skin off if you use it like a bozo).
This Tac glue looks better and cheaper.
Bought a regular and a gel tonight. It's on sale now.
Thanks Fred.
I wonder if just gluing two of the CF drags together would be enough if the glue would harden enough to keep the hole from rounding out like they did on my disc. I will have to get some of this tac glue. I have couple of different two part epoxy glues already. I just have to figure out a thin washer or some metal to start with for a washers between the two drag disc. I did end up using the disc I already made in a quick 221 they were just the right size so thankfully what failed in the cardinal worked in another reel just fine.
My guess'ed be that it'ed work (2-glued together) at low to normal drag settings, but split or round out at the higher settings.
Gfish
Check out the fishing applications -- lots of folks are using it for dissimilar splices and securing rigs.
Got mine at Fred Hall a couple of years ago for $10, show special -- after seeing a few demonstrations.
On sale now for just a hair more.
On my backpacking gear and hiking boot laces, fireland gear, lines, ropes, etc.. -- I just dip the end of the line or rope about 1/2" into a bottle of TG -- pull it out quickly -- wait 3 minutes -- it is hard as a rock -- I just cut off the end clean and flush with a sharp pocket knife -- then never have a problem again trying to lace up or get frayed lines through small holes.
Got tired of always buying expensive boot or outdoor shoes laces that never seem to hold up anyway.
Went to REI, bought (2) 50' lengths of 400 lb. 1/8" utility cord for $3. All different cool colors. Now I have stronger and the right length laces for all of my gear -- at a fraction of the cost.
This stuff is very good, capable, and waterproof.
Best,
Fred
http://www.tacglue.com/
After watching Tacglue's video I'm wondering if it could be used as an impregnator around the inner edge of the oblong, or even round, holes. If it will soak in at all it should work as the say it can be sanded or drilled.
That looks like some good stuff, Fred. Maybe you could experiment a little since you have it and CF material, and let us know the outcome. :) Hardener around the holes, if it works, would be more efficient than lamination.
Fred I may have to pick some of that glue up sounds like good stuff. If you use a lot of that cord Fred you outta buy a bulk spool of the military paracord I keep a big spool of it in my shop works great for replacement boot laces, tying things up, my favorite use is for replacing broken pull cords on small engines. It's one of the few ropes/cords I've found that is strong enough yet thin enough to wind sufficient amounts into a recoil starter. I'm thinking two cf drags made to fit like I did glued together at the center might do the trick.
Quote from: Gfish on March 23, 2017, 06:56:50 AM
Good job a lettin it go Fred! Havn't matured enough myself to do that, plus my wife is never wrong(in her mind) so I'd probably do the childish thing and rub it in.
Tommy I musta wrote it funny in my reply post, 'cause what you thought'a sounds like what I's tryin to convey. Unless the 0.5 mm carbon-tex glued on both sides a the fabricated metal washers would be too thick?
Fred, who carries that TAC glue, or do ya gotta order it?
You didn't write it funny, I read it funny. ::) For some reason I was thinking laminating to the original metal drag disc and that a thinner metal would give more room. Shame on my reading comp. :-[
Thanks, guys --
Lots of good ideas --
And, Tommy --
Next time I rebuild a Cardinal for my own use -- I'll do a little experimenting.
In the meantime, I will source a bunch of CF's from Dawn, or somewhere -- and just stock up on the smaller guys. Don't really have time to punch my own when working on reels. Just like to have plenty on hand.
Need a bunch of smaller ones anyway for Mitchell, Quick, ABU, Shimanos, Daiwas, and Cardinals.
Best,
Fred
Tommy, you could try putting baking soda around the inside hole and then a drop of any cyanoacrylate (super glue), including Tac Glue. The baking soda instantly becomes rock hard. The hardened baking soda/super glue can be sanded, milled or shaped any way you like it.
The baking soda is also useful if you ever get too much cyanoacrylate on a project. Dust it with baking soda and it will instantly dry. Also great for filling cracks. Its amazing stuff with lots of uses.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on March 23, 2017, 07:59:23 PM
Tommy, you could try putting baking soda around the inside hole and then a drop of any cyanoacrylate (super glue), including Tac Glue. The baking soda instantly becomes rock hard. The hardened baking soda/super glue can be sanded, milled or shaped any way you like it.
The baking soda is also useful if you ever get too much cyanoacrylate on a project. Dust it with baking soda and it will instantly dry. Also great for filling cracks. Its amazing stuff with lots of uses.
-steve
Interesting. Sounds like a good tip. Makes me wonder why I used filler fir my model plane projects.
Quote from: oc1 on March 23, 2017, 07:59:23 PM
Tommy, you could try putting baking soda around the inside hole and then a drop of any cyanoacrylate (super glue), including Tac Glue. The baking soda instantly becomes rock hard. The hardened baking soda/super glue can be sanded, milled or shaped any way you like it.
The baking soda is also useful if you ever get too much cyanoacrylate on a project. Dust it with baking soda and it will instantly dry. Also great for filling cracks. Its amazing stuff with lots of uses.
-steve
Quotecyanoacrylate
That's one big word! ;D Thanks for the tip, Steve. I've never heard that before. :)
After hearing about the baking soda and how good the tac glue is I ordered up some of the tac glue when it comes in I may have to give it a shot gluing two carbon disc together using some baking soda I think two carbon ones with the hard glue baking soda in between could work.
Good thread. Here's one thing I tried: took the original cardinal 4 washers sanded 'em down to a 0.5mm thickness and glued 0.5 mm new C-tex material onto either side of each of these old washers. When testing after reassembly I had alternating high and low friction drag at any given setting. So my sanding wasn't even enough and possibly the glue produced high/low spots. Back to the drawing board.
My thinking was mabey the old hard drag material would be stiff enough at 0.5mm and it was, but I might need better tooling to get an even surface on anything I fabricate in terms of the "meat" of the "drag sandwhich".
Gonna focus ona metal washer I can use without too much lap type grinding. Headin to the hardware store...
Gfish
Allright, the best option I could find for me in the hw store was metal gromets(in the pic), which I hammered flat. Od.-perfect, Id.-good for reaming out without too much work, the key thing for me: thickness=0.5mm, 0.45mm after lapping. Washer sandwhichs(my new word for it), aprox. 1.5mm each, after completion. The pic shows a completed, installed stack, a gromet, gromet processed into a washer and cut C-tex washer.
Testing: everything held up while pulling out drag all the way to almost lock-down. But, not smooth. Start-up was good. But there was a constant alternating-friction-pull-difference for the same 1/4 turn area of the spool. It is however, a big improvement over both the last incarnation I came up with, and the way it worked when I first received it. I don't think it'ed break off a drag pullin fish in it's present state.
Quite probably one 'er both metal washers aren't completely flat. So, I still gotta get a better source for a 0.5mm thick washer, Od=14.95mm, Id=6.36mm.
Gfish
Nice to see someone trying to experiment and improve upon the design. I haven't had much time lately to mess with reels have had a lot of cars to work on and now need to pull the transmission from my own truck. Before I mess with my cardinal 4 more I have a quick super I need to mess with to get ready for a louisiana coastal trip I'm going on in may not to mention get the trans rebuilt in my truck before it as well. :-\
Quote from: foakes on March 23, 2017, 04:14:28 PMCheck out the fishing applications -- lots of folks are using it for dissimilar splices and securing rigs.
Got mine at Fred Hall a couple of years ago for $10, show special -- after seeing a few demonstrations.
On sale now for just a hair more.
Best,
Fred
http://www.tacglue.com/
I remember seeing this Glue at the Fred Hall show in Del Mar (san diego) back some years ago (around 2012 I think) and wanted to get it but I had hurry to check some add with "special" prices on rods, etc so, I forgot to get me a bottle and never remembered the name of the product.
I went to the website and saw their promo videos and well, this is the same Glue and with Fred saying he got it at the Fred Hall show there is no doubt its the one.
cool, go figure I would find it 10 years later ^-^ ;D
thanks Fred for always showing the products that you find useful compared to the regular commercial ones
I will order a regular glue bottle and Gel one too
BTW, back in the original topic, anyone found any advantage on using CF washers compared to stock ones on these UL spinning reels?