We are heading this week to the Elk River for 2 days of Steelhead fishing on coastal Southern Oregon, near Port Orford.
IF... and I don't want to piss off the Steelhead Catch'n Gods, BUT IF... we are lucky enough to catch a hatchery-born steelhead, and if we get a female with eggs, I plan on making caviar. Recently enjoyed freshly steamed crab & delicious caviar at Dominick's, and would like to turn some roe into just that.
Have this recipe, http://honest-food.net/2009/12/02/how-to-make-caviar/
BUT if any of you have a reicpe and have made caviar, PLEASE let me know your secrets PLEASE!!!!
Wayne
Wild caught salmon and trout must be frozen at -4F for 7 continuous days to kill parasites. This includes the roe. Salting will not kill parasites. Freezing and cooking does that only.
Spread it out on a cookie sheet with wax paper to get rapid freezing of each egg for quality. Then put in a Tupperware and leave in the freezer for 7 days if your freezer can sustain -4F.
Any recipe you follow will work but the key is temperature control for Clostridium botulinum control.
Salt content (water activity/ water phase salt) and temperature are your controls for botulism.
You likely don't have the equipment to test at home to test salt content but if it is salty you likely have enough to control CBOT E and non-proteolytic B and F( non gas forming). For CBOT A and proteolytic B and F you need much more salt but you get and odor if toxin forms.
Toxin will form at internal temperatures above 38F so check your fridge temps.
Rinse your eggs in fresh water and then soak in 1 gallon of water with 1/2 cap of plain bleach for a few minutes. Rinse off with cold running water and then apply salt and seasoning as per your recipe after you defrost the eggs.
At all times once salted, keep the temperatures below 38F. Eat within 4-5 days unless frozen.
jigmaster501,
Holy Moly! I guess what you don't know can kill you!
I do have a Biology background, have been in a different field for 29 years, but I recognize your terms, but I have always been told by Steelhead and Salmon guides, ONCE you freeze roe, it become bait and you can't use it for delicate food items like caviar.
BLEACH? Really, too???
Given you comments I might just have the caught fish smoked and enjoyed it with some gouda cheese and some fava beans!!!!!
Thank you for the cautionary note.
Wayne
Hey, Wayne --
I can send you a batch of wild mushrooms to go with that caviar -- be careful...
Not worth it, IMO.
Have a great trip -- and show us some pics!
Best,
Fred
The canneries in SE Alaska figured out that there was big $ to be made making Ikura (salt cured salmon roe) for the Japanese market. They salted the roe then put it in wood boxes with a weight on the cover to press the roe. Because we could not use bait in the streams I fished we salted our roe, a few 100# a season, and used it for prawn and crab bait.
BTW, the wood boxes make good places to store reels that are waiting for parts.
Quote from: El Pescador on February 02, 2015, 03:51:20 PM
Holy Moly! I guess what you don't know can kill you!
Wayne
Yes it could. I grew up in Italy and we ate wild mushrooms often, some before my time didn't get to enjoy after cooking them.
I remember my mom adding a garlic clove with the wild mushroom while frying them, if the garlic turned black, everything went in the trash.
I love wild mushrooms by the way ;D.
We have some growing in the pasture that make you act funny and see things that are not there.
Wayne,
Your key to freezing and not bursting the eggs is rapid freezing. The critical freezing zone is 32F to 23F. The faster you get through this zone the better quality seafood you will have due to the smaller size ice crystals that form which don't damage the fish/eggs. The same goes with defrosting. The faster you go through that zone, the better. It also has to do with salts and minerals that freeze last and defrost first which can damage cells when not diluted in the water that froze first or defrosted last.
You could also do a mild heat pasteurization to kill parasites. Freezing is easier.
Municipal water is chlorinated as is and when bleach water is used and rinsed off, you will be fine.
If you get the fish smoked, you have to make sure that tell your smoker that you want a minimum 3.5 % WPS (water phase salt) and have it HOT SMOKED ONLY. Have him make sure that it is hot smoked to an internal temp of 145F for 30 minutes or longer. If he is going to vacuum package it, make sure that it stays below 38F or even better, have it frozen for you.
Make sure your fish is bled properly and kept in pristine condition. Don't hold it by the tail if you want it smoked, causes too much gaping of the flesh.
BTW, anyone looking to eat wild mushrooms should talk to a mycologist who is skilled in mushroom ID in the area where you plan to pick mushrooms. Mushroom toxins differ from area to area.
Quote from: Keta on February 02, 2015, 04:22:52 PM
We have some growing in the pasture that make you act funny and see things that are not there.
I thought that was your Normal Behavior Lee! :D
And Now For Something Completely Different.
Salmon Caviar is something I make yearly with fresh caught Chum Salmon roe and occasionally other Salmonid species-I've done this for decades and have never heard of someone using bleach on their food-that is madness.
First separate the eggs on a coarse stainless steel screen (or by hand if there's time) -discard membrane, blood vessels, etc remaining on screen.
Add 250 ml of salt to 1 litre water mix thoroughly and cool brine mix down.
Stir eggs in cooled brine (this is important) until they look opalescent then drain-apparently this should be done in a cool place but not a refrigerator I use a window shelf in the bathroom.
Pack into 250 ml jars it will keep for a few weeks in the fridge but my experience is that it's eaten rather quickly rich as it is.
Again-never ever freeze, cook or rinse Salmon eggs with nasty chemicals.
Note this recipe is from Smoking Salmon & Trout (http://www.harbourpublishing.com/title/SmokingSalmonandTrout) by Jack Whelan it's something of a bible here in British Columbia.
I've never done it, but my Alaskan friend tell me to separate the eggs as WhaleBreath stated and only use salt water. My friends often do it on the boat pumping salt water while cleaning the eggs, then storing them in salt water. When they get back to the dock, they replace the sea water with fresh brine water or strain and place on a cheese cloth. Then add miso paste over the cheese cloth and let sit for a few days before eating.
Quote from: foakes on February 02, 2015, 03:55:24 PM
...
I can send you a batch of wild mushrooms to go with that caviar -- be careful...
Fred,
Exactly, my first day in Botany 101 Labs, we studied
Amanita muscaria - Death Cap Mushrooms - THESE WILL KILL YOU!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanita_muscaria
(http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii518/wdeutscher/Mushrooms/Amanita_muscaria_zpst8ma3nrc.jpg) (http://s1257.photobucket.com/user/wdeutscher/media/Mushrooms/Amanita_muscaria_zpst8ma3nrc.jpg.html)
and
Amanita phalloides - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanita_phalloides - as will these as well.
(http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii518/wdeutscher/Mushrooms/Amanita_phalloides_zpsathaqfqh.jpg) (http://s1257.photobucket.com/user/wdeutscher/media/Mushrooms/Amanita_phalloides_zpsathaqfqh.jpg.html)
Our professor, and I still rememeber his name, Dr. Becker. His recommendation to eat mushrooms are:
1) ONLY eat mushrooms you purchase at the local grocery store
or
2) eat the mushrooms picked by a professional mushroom picker, get this, THREE days after their comsumption to make sure they did not pick and eat poisonous mushrooms!!!!!
Right now, we are looking at rain every day before we arrive to fish the Elk River, let's see if we are successful in getting some roe, either way, it will be a fantastic trip with my two sons, lifelong fishing buddy, Jerry, and our mid-30's single guy, Eric, he is our handicapper.
More to follow under a separate thread.
Wayne
Whalebreath,
I have been a food safety regulator for almost 14 years.
I am a Seafood Processing Subject matter expert, Manufactured Food Subject Matter expert, Retail Food Subject Matter expert, Seafood HACCP Trainer (training regulators and industry alike), American Fisheries Society Certified Fisheries Professional, USCG 50 Ton Master Captain, former fisheries observer, written food safety articles for magazines, and a life long fisherman.
I have been on hundreds of seafood inspections in my career.
The use of bleach at safe concentrations on food is not madness. It is encouraged by many in the scientific community in addition to many other chemicals which have been given FCN (food contact notification) status by FDA. Also I included a rinse with potable fresh water which will remove the minimal bleach present. This is to help eliminate surface pathogens.
Studies have shown that up to 50% of raw seafood is contaminated with Listeria monocytogenes. Also up to 62% of coastal waters are contaminated with Listeria monocytogenes. That is just Listeria, how about salmonella, E. Coli, etc????
Cutting into fish and spreading pathogens inside, handling fish, handling bait, unsanitary equipment and the use of "fresh" salt water or river water for a rinse will provide a beautiful environment for Listeria monocytogenes contamination of your caviar product.
Listeria causes listeriosis which can cause severe illness, death of the immunocompromised and miscarriage of pregnant women. This is the greatest concern.
Since there is no likely heat treatment, you have to resort to chemicals or other novel green procedures too time consuming to discuss here for the control of surface pathogens on raw seafood. This includes fish eggs. The book you are referring to I own and was written long before any of these food safety issues were known in depth and their associated illnesses recognized.
You also need a control for parasites. Salt brine does not kill parasites.
Placing a brine in an unrefrigerated environment will allow for Staphlococcus aureus toxin formation as Staph thrives in salt brines that are unrefrigerated. Also storing food in your bathroom with aerosolized fecal particles suspended in the air is madness. How about CBOT Toxin formation??? Do you know the water activity/WPS of your brine and how long it will take to reach equilibrium???
Look up Class 1 recalls for seafood products that have tested positive for Listeria monocytogenes.
Look up Salmonella barielly and Salmonella nchanga in tuna scrape on the CDC website. See the deaths and illnesses associated that.
My sole concern here is the safety of those reading this thread and those who might eat the food from a recipe made off this thread.
When you have investigated food borne illnesses and deaths, been involved in massive food recalls, you will see things in a different light.
FOOD SAFETY FIRST- FLAVOR SECOND. Food is only supposed to be tasted going down and not up.
Also, those who say that I have eaten this stuff for years and never got sick from it is nonsense. To know that, you need to know the pathogens involved, the incubation times before you get ill after consuming the product and what the symptoms are. Most food borne illnesses aren't from the last meal you ate. That is why food borne illness investigations have a minimum of a 3 day meal history.
I am sure some will laugh and think I am nuts and I really could care less about them.
Watching people without any food safety knowledge encourage others to produce unsafe food is like standing by and watching someone walk a blind person into oncoming traffic and run away while you do nothing.
When you have foods that can support the growth of CBOT, you have an extremely high risk food item. Controlling that at home is something that must be taken seriously.
BTW Wayne,
I hope you enjoy your trip and catch your fill of fish. Keep them bled and on clean ice and I hope you enjoy every ounce of fish you eat with your family and friends. That is all high quality fish you will be catching there. Don't let it go to waste.
This wasn't meant to blow up your thread or your trip but I really don't have the conscience to sit back and let other unknowingly get themselves or loved ones sick.
jigmaster501,
Your lengthly comments only remind us that, "we don't know, what we don't know, even when we don't know what we don't know!!!"
your comments told me you were either a food safety expert or my Mother Reincarnated (God rest her soul)!!!!!
Thanks for the well wishes, getting more packed tonight for the 480 mile trip from home to the Steelblue Lodge, 9 miles upstream from Port Orford, OR on the Elk River.
Wayne
Looks like you're well informed on mushrooms, Wayne.
Dominick, if you're reading this, attention:
if Wayne invites you over for some mushroom soup.... don't go ;)
Have a Safe Trip Wayne! ;D
Good Luck! and watch the Face! ;)
Quote from: Shark Hunter on February 03, 2015, 01:17:45 AM
Good Luck! and watch the Face! ;)
Thanks Daron!
Dominick is not going, I should be fine!!!!! :o
AND I Never mess with the face ;D
Scarface