We're having a discussion on line twist and spinning reels, some have said you'll get line twist by both using the reels mechizinisms to close the bail and by reeling while the drag is letting line out.
I can see the line out while the drag is slipping, but not so sure about how the bail is closed.
Will you get line twist by letting the reel close the bail and not if you manually close the bail?
TIA
Al
Inherently spinning reels by there design will twist the line on the spool. There is things you can do to compensate for this happening. For casting you can use a rod with the Microwave stripper guide, you can manually close the bail instead of cranking the bale closed. If you are using light tackle with light line try to step up in weigh of line. The larger the spool the better, You could try braided line and see how that works for you. In the past I surf fished with a spinning rig and I used a Diawa 9000 spinning reel and cased thousands of times and wasn't plagued by line twist. But I changed line four times per season on average, and I use 15-20# test line. I hope this has been help to you.
Joe
Good advice Joe, 15-20 # is all that I use as well.
I made it a habit of manually close the bail on all my spinners...it's a good habit.
Properly loading the line is helpful, also, a swivel helps somewhat with twists, but must times it can't be stopped... It is what it is.
Sal
Thanks guys.
The question was how does line twist increase by using the reels mechanism over manually closing the bail.
fwiw I run a leader with a swivel when using baits that can cause line twist, so that's not a problem, this is fresh water fishing if that makes any difference.
As long as we're at it, why manually close bail?
If it's a wear issue, I have yet to wear a reel out and some are from the 80's and have a lot of time on them?
Al
You cannot stop line twist. Winding line onto a spinner will cause twist (some lines suffer more than others :-\) Not so obvious with braid but it's still there. But when you cast the line should un-twist. If you wind at the same time the drag is working you will cause more twist.
If you put line directly onto a spool (ie spool to spool) it will not have twist on the reel. BUT when you cast it will twist. Personally I prefer to have the line un-twist when I cast.
Always use a free turning swivel to cut out twist from baits, weights and lures.
Just my take on it.
For some time now, D.A.M. Quick has utilized a line anti twist system on some of their higher-quality reels. This is an oversized line roller with a ball bearing -- along with a oscillation line lay using a "S" pattern. Another thing that helps to eliminate the line twist is a unique design on the spool that is angled for better line lay and smoother casting.
Mono is generally going to have some "memory" -- plus the action of fish, lures, attractors, trolling rigs, and conditions will always help to twist your line somewhat.
If this issue happens, I generally just let all of the spool "out" -- allow it to untwist -- then slightly pull it tight when tied off or under resistance. This will slightly stretch the line enough to take out the memory -- and also to help eliminate twist when retrieving.
Old school -- but it does work.
Best,
Fred
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/817dbbbc#/817dbbbc/8
I hear what you're saying Al and agree completely. There is no twist until the bail comes tight on the line and it does not matter how you got there. Manually closing the bail is just to avoid the clunk.
Cranking the handle against the drag creates more twists, but having line play out against a drag and then retrieving it normally creates twists too. There is no getting around it.
In my humble opinion, baitcasting reels now achieve as much distance as spinning reels. Distance was the last and only advantage of spinning reels so they are now dinosaurs in my book. We can agree to disagree.
-steve
You'll never completely eliminate line twist. But after working in a tackle store for years one thing I learned is that most people spool a spinner the wrong way. Either by hand or on a winding machine, they always seem to have the line come off of the top of the feeder spool, onto a reel WINDING IN THE OPPOSITE direction of the reel spool. On a spinner, the line should always come off of the bottom (under handed) of the feeder spool so it winds onto the reel the same way it came off of the feeder spool. It really helps eliminate Lots of twist.
Quote from: AllenW on March 27, 2016, 03:55:45 PM
Thanks guys.
The question was how does line twist increase by using the reels mechanism over manually closing the bail.
Al
Perhaps "line twist" is a reference to the fact that, on some reels, the line is more prone to tangling when the bail is closed automatically?
In this case, there is very little tension on the line as it is initially spooled--resulting in a loose coil that is easily tangled on the cast.
Closing the bail manually allows the angler to keep the line taut from the very beginning, minimizing loose coils and subsequent tangles.
Line twist in contrast, is something imparted to the line that causes it to twist rather than coil loosely.
Many already-mentioned variables at work here, but, on a reel spooled correctly, most twists are usually straightened out on the retrieve--and before they hit the spool--as the sufficiently-tensioned line runs over the tip-top ring.
Chad
+1 on what RiverAngler said. I've used spinners my entire life. I still get line twist but really it isn't much of a problem. Not reeling when a fish is taking drag will eliminate most problems, but if you put mono on a spool wrong you will be plagued with line twist. I would change out the mono and enjoy fishing again.
Quote from: RiverAngler on March 27, 2016, 09:22:51 PM
You'll never completely eliminate line twist. But after working in a tackle store for years one thing I learned is that most people spool a spinner the wrong way. Either by hand or on a winding machine, they always seem to have the line come off of the top of the feeder spool, onto a reel WINDING IN THE OPPOSITE direction of the reel spool. On a spinner, the line should always come off of the bottom (under handed) of the feeder spool so it winds onto the reel the same way it came off of the feeder spool. It really helps eliminate Lots of twist.
My father tought me that 50 years ago.
I've also been using spinners for over 40+ years.
Manufacturers would sell you anything, as large line rollers or better spools to prevent twists. The bottom line is you will always get twists with a spinner, unless you have a miracle reel.
This is why I've mentioned above " it is what it is ".
Al, flipping the bail by hands is related to wear issues. I have replaced weak springs in the past, along with some other parts related to it. Yes, parts on the bail do wear out.
Once you get used to it, it becomes a natural thing flipping the bail by hand.
Sal
Quote from: RiverAngler on March 27, 2016, 09:22:51 PM
You'll never completely eliminate line twist. But after working in a tackle store for years one thing I learned is that most people spool a spinner the wrong way. Either by hand or on a winding machine, they always seem to have the line come off of the top of the feeder spool, onto a reel WINDING IN THE OPPOSITE direction of the reel spool. On a spinner, the line should always come off of the bottom (under handed) of the feeder spool so it winds onto the reel the same way it came off of the feeder spool. It really helps eliminate Lots of twist.
I agree with this completely. By their nature, line twist is unavoidable on spinning reels. But proper winding will minimize any problems, while improper winding will exacerbate them. When winding a spinning reel, the spool of line should be perpendicular to the rod, and the coils should be coming off in the same direction they are wound onto the reel. This will minimize the twist, but it does prevent you from spooling the line under pressure. For braid, I prefer to remove the spool from the reel wind it on a machine just like you would a conventional. This way I can load the spool under pressure, ensuring the braid is fully compacted. Generally adds about 10% of line capacity too.
While a spinning reel twists the line as it winds it into the spool, it comes untwisted as its released from the spool. But when line is taken out against the drag, it goes straight out. Its probably not a big issue for most people, but it can cause extra twist to be introduced to the line if the reel is routinely subjected to long runs against the drag.
If your line is twisted and causing tangles because of it, heres a trick that may help. Remove any terminal tackle from the line, and play out line by hand while in a slow moving boat. Let out more line than you typically use, and then reel it back in. Any excessive twisting should come out.
Al: you've got some pretty good advice here by experienced anglers all you have to do is sort it out for your stile of fishing.
Joe
My father tought me that 50 years ago.
[/quote]
I get that. And I appreciate that (smart Man, your Father). But a lot of people forgot every thing they learned in high school science class. :D
Mono has a "memory". Which is why the coils have to go on the reel the same way they come off of the feeder spool. Keeping in mind this depends on the winder or winding method you are using. We weew using an older Berkeley winder that required that the spool be removed from the reel first, and then clamped to the winder drive motor. I can't tell you how many rookies I've seen wind line on a spinner spool off the top of the feeder and over the top of the spinner spool! :D :D What a mess that makes.
Quote from: RiverAngler on March 28, 2016, 12:36:56 PM
My father tought me that 50 years ago.
I get that. And I appreciate that (smart Man, your Father). But a lot of people forgot every thing they learned in high school science class. :D
Mono has a "memory". Which is why the coils have to go on the reel the same way they come off of the feeder spool. Keeping in mind this depends on the winder or winding method you are using. We weew using an older Berkeley winder that required that the spool be removed from the reel first, and then clamped to the winder drive motor. I can't tell you how many rookies I've seen wind line on a spinner spool off the top of the feeder and over the top of the spinner spool! :D :D What a mess that makes.
[/quote]
Isn't that funny, the older we get we realize how smart our parents were. ;D
Joe
Right you are Joe. My kids are finding that out, even in their 30's.
Quote from: AllenW on March 27, 2016, 01:49:14 PM
We're having a discussion on line twist and spinning reels, some have said you'll get line twist by both using the reels mechizinisms to close the bail and by reeling while the drag is letting line out.
I can see the line out while the drag is slipping, but not so sure about how the bail is closed.
Will you get line twist by letting the reel close the bail and not if you manually close the bail?
TIA
Al
Twist is not caused by auto-tripping the bail. What that does is put slack loops on the spool that can then cause wind knots when the next cast is longer. It also beats up the gears, bail arms, rotor and springs. Manually tripping the bail by hand is better in every regard and removing auto-trip features can save the loss of expensive plugs.
Twist is caused when retrieving by the circular motion of the rotor as it forces the line to change direction. You can demonstrate this yourself by wrapping line onto a spool yourself by hand. We all naturally line up the spool to be parallel to the incoming line to make it easier, but if you set the spool to 90 degrees and wrap the line you will see a twisty mess very shortly. A freely moving line roller "grips" the line less and lets the twist go onto the spool without much built up tension in one section whereas a sticky line roller "squeezes" the twist down the line. You can also demonstrate this yourself then retrieving your line between your finger pressure. It doesn't make more or less twist it just concentrates it sooner into a shorter section and a mess results.
Pro line riggers like Basil Pappas at BHP Tackle offer a service called "streamlining" whereby big game spinners are spooled with "reverse" twist to delay twist build up. This is critical as twist can help cause the formation of "micro" wind knots in very limp lines (like JB Hollow 60). These tiny knots lead to mysterious brake-offs under very little pressure and lost fish.
best
I'm pretty sure the shop I used loaded all my Stradics wrong, as I've had loops trouble ever since.
I just went back and bought some quality swivels and will try that.
Quote from: johndtuttle on March 28, 2016, 10:08:49 PM
Twist is caused when retrieving by the circular motion of the rotor as it forces the line to change direction. You can demonstrate this yourself by wrapping line onto a spool yourself by hand. We all naturally line up the spool to be parallel to the incoming line to make it easier, but if you set the spool to 90 degrees and wrap the line you will see a twisty mess very shortly. A freely moving line roller "grips" the line less and lets the twist go onto the spool without much built up tension in one section whereas a sticky line roller "squeezes" the twist down the line. You can also demonstrate this yourself then retrieving your line between your finger pressure. It doesn't make more or less twist it just concentrates it sooner into a shorter section and a mess results.
Pro line riggers like Basil Pappas at BHP Tackle offer a service called "streamlining" whereby big game spinners are spooled with "reverse" twist to delay twist build up. This is critical as twist can help cause the formation of "micro" wind knots in very limp lines (like JB Hollow 60). These tiny knots lead to mysterious brake-offs under very little pressure and lost fish.
best
John, I have struggled to understand why line on a spinner always twists, and I've even gotten into the habit of manually flipping over the bail despite not understanding what causes the twist, but your explanation (on the third reading with a 2-hr break between the second and third) really starts to make sense out of this. Thank you.
Sid
Quote from: AllenW on March 27, 2016, 03:55:45 PM
Thanks guys.
The question was how does line twist increase by using the reels mechanism over manually closing the bail.
fwiw I run a leader with a swivel when using baits that can cause line twist, so that's not a problem, this is fresh water fishing if that makes any difference.
As long as we're at it, why manually close bail?
If it's a wear issue, I have yet to wear a reel out and some are from the 80's and have a lot of time on them?
Al
Al,
nice useful discussion, but you get your specific answer from oc1 & John: two separate problems that wreak havoc in conjunction -- twist & loose, sloppy line packing on the spool. Auto bail return causes the latter, which is generally bad & EXTRA horrible for mono that's already excessively twisted & for braid in any condition.
Quote from: Three se7ens on March 28, 2016, 01:22:17 AM
If your line is twisted and causing tangles because of it, heres a trick that may help. Remove any terminal tackle from the line, and play out line by hand while in a slow moving boat. Let out more line than you typically use, and then reel it back in. Any excessive twisting should come out.
great trick... you may need to drag the line behind the boat for up to 20 min., if it's badly twisted... if no boat, moderate river current will do the same
Quote from: oc1 on March 27, 2016, 09:10:59 PM
In my humble opinion, baitcasting reels now achieve as much distance as spinning reels. Distance was the last and only advantage of spinning reels so they are now dinosaurs in my book. We can agree to disagree.
-steve
show me a baitcaster that can effectively cast <1/16oz, or even 1/8oz, & handle 2lb mono/5lb braid... and if you find one, LOOK AT THE PRICE!!! :o :'( >:(
Quote from: oc1 on March 27, 2016, 09:10:59 PM
I hear what you're saying Al and agree completely. There is no twist until the bail comes tight on the line and it does not matter how you got there. Manually closing the bail is just to avoid the clunk.
Cranking the handle against the drag creates more twists, but having line play out against a drag and then retrieving it normally creates twists too. There is no getting around it.
In my humble opinion, baitcasting reels now achieve as much distance as spinning reels. Distance was the last and only advantage of spinning reels so they are now dinosaurs in my book. We can agree to disagree.
-steve
This was the answer to my question, thanks.
I've heard and read on a few forums that using the auto bail closer you added line twist and to do it manually, I for the life of me couldn't figure out how that happens.
Appears others agree with me that it makes no difference, thanks.
I tend to bounce back and forth as to whether to manually close the bail, if I start wearing reels out, I'll go all manual but till then, I'll do both.
Appreciate the advice though.
fwiw I normally run a main line, then a good ball bearing swivel, then a 4-6 foot leader of slightly less test than the main line for my walleye/crappie rigs, keeps line twist down with jigs and such, and the lighter test line means I normally only loose a jig and a few feet of line if snagged.
Once again, thanks all.
Al
You may have all the info you needed but wanted to add something for what it's worth.
I tied two swivels (one each) to my two spinning reels and went fishing for stripers yesterday for 5 hrs., casting continually. In all that time I did not have one loop develop. I caught 31 small stripers.
My Stradic Anti-reverse would fail off and on, but that's for another thread.