Good day to all, I hope the ''virus'' has avoided you or at least is giving you a fighting chance at beating it.
My question is in regards to using liquid plumber or equivalent to free up a seized handle on a Penn 50T international. I tried everything from WD40 to heating the handle. Nothing improved the movement from the ( on a scale of 1 to 10) 0.5 movement I had.
I found some info that says muriatic acid will take chrome and/or the gold electroplating off a Penn International faster than dropping it overboard. However, as far as I can see there is only Stainless steel on this handle knob stem. I removed the handle from the flat stock and stuck the stem in an old 35mm plastic film canister full of drain cleaner containing ... ahh? ... I don't remember the chemical name but it is a diluted muriatic acid solution. I could only barely move the handle before submerging. I left it for a day. It showed remarkable improvement but I'd say only 10% freed up of what it should be. 3 more days shows no further improvement. With a wrench on the bolt stem and my hand on the knob apply about 10# of pressure, I can turn it.
I think the plumbing solution ( IMO) is to thick to penetrate farther.
Question... do you think using straight muriatic acid ( being much more like water and less like this syrupy plumbing stuff.) will penetrate deeper without eating anything but the salt? And does anyone think it WILL eventually eat the stainless steel?
The handle's not worth much in the shape it is in, so I don't mind experimenting.
Thanks in advance,
Greg
Greg, I'm not an expert on that stuff, but I do remember soaking gas burners in a bucket overnight in some 50/50 muriatic acid and water.
The next day there was nothing left.
Being a GC, I've used muriatic acid many times to remove cement from bricks and stones.
My advice to you would be to stay away from it, but wait for someone else Smarter than me to chime in.
Sal
Maybe try ultrasound vs acid.
Quote from: Alto Mare on May 02, 2020, 09:27:55 PM
Greg, I'm not an expert on that stuff, but I do remember soaking gas burners in a bucket overnight in some 50/50 muriatic acid and water.
The next day there was nothing left.
Being a GC, I've used muriatic acid many times to remove cement from bricks and stones.
My advice to you would be to stay away from it, but wait for someone else Smarter than me to chime in.
Sal
Hey Sal I remember you made a jig to turn the knob on a reel, but I could not find it. Do you think that might work? Dominick
thanks for the wise advice Sal. I know this is wicked stuff. I was a farmer/rancher in my past life and 1 swipe across a crack in a copper radiator from a cloth with a bit of acid on it - before soldering - made the copper as new. No rubbing necessary, just a swipe with a GLOVED hand holding a wet cloth. I'll not do anything for a couple more days. Maybe someone else has some ideas. It's hard to believe that seawater could get in between the 2 pieces that turn against each other, in a quantity to do so much damage ( no room for more than a drop of water ), and yet, now nothing I tried can get past that little bit of corrosion.
I have used MO, Mikes idea, many time, that works good for me, he uses, Bycarb Soda, mixed with omo powder, makes up a past, then works it in around the shaft, Mike then lets it stand fo 20 minutes, then washes it out with hot water, then stand the handle on an angle so the water & paste drains out, I then get a serynge, with synthetic oil in it such as TSI 321, & squirt that around the shaft, works for me, personally I make my paste with Bycarb & Dynamo, good luck Cheers Don. you may find his post in general procedures section.
Hmm. I'm not sure exactly what you have going on, but my $.02...You mentioned Liquid Plumber drain cleaner - now I know they make a lot of different products but in my part of the world the active ingredient is basically a really strong alkaline base (caustic, high up on the pH scale, and aggressive particularly when in comes to dissolving/attacking organics like the hair/fats that congeal and restrict drains). On the "base" side of the pH range I have never needed to use anything stronger than Dawn dish detergent on a reel, and that is mostly to break down old grease, oils, etc.
Muriatic Acid on the other hand is the opposite (low pH) side of the spectrum. My first thought is using it in conjunction with drain cleaner (a base) you are pretty much probably creating some bad smells, while the two chemicals neutralize each other into water and salts. Yes, I have waaaayyy oversimplified this. I would echo what others have said - milder chemicals, longer soak/contact times, and "elbow grease" with brushes as appropriate. Be careful when it comes to "cocktailing" chemicals. Even Muriatic Acid alone can be pretty severe stuff; I work with Phosphoric and Nitric Acid every day but when it comes to reels never have had to use anything more severe than good old Acetic (Vinegar). - john
Mix of acetone and transmission fluid 50/50 in a jar (with a loose cover not a screw down lid) placed in an ultrasonic bath filled with water - NO HEAT!!
Using this I've managed free-up some unmovable objects ;)
I think, Tiddlerbasher, Chris, is on the right track, with the acertone & AT fluid, injected into the shaft often, to soak it in vinegar for many hours, may strip the chrome of the shaft, please keep us informed on your progress, cheers Don.
what's weaker than Acetic & readily available -- Boric ???
Quote from: Navidad Nutcase on May 02, 2020, 08:48:23 PM
as far as I can see there is only Stainless steel on this handle knob stem.
Yeah, but there is brass inside the stem. It's the brass sleeve that seizes on the steel post that is peened to the blade.
For our purposes, vinegar versus muriatic acid is a matter of dilution and soak time. Very dilute muriatic may be no stronger than vinegar. Muriatic acid is diluted hydrochloric acid.
Acid can cut corrosion, but it can also cause corrosion when it eats away the protective surface skin.
If you do it, please report back.
-steve
A couple years back I asked advice on switching over a Penn 12 drag washer to carbon fiber. No replies for 24 hours , so I did it MY way. Then posted the results only to find out if I had just waited a few days - I could have saved myself a lot of work. Never again. This time I did nothing for a few days, Now I have lots of choices.
I grabbed the drain cleaner bottle. The active ingredient is hydrochloric acid. Doesn't say the strength. It is slowly doing the job so now I think I will flush it out and try some of your suggestions. I think the drain cleaner would have worked better ( penetrated deeper, faster) if it had just been a diluted acid/water mix. This stuff is like pancake syrup with a nice fragrance. Dangerous in my opinion if some kid got hold of it. This stuff needs to be stored under lock and key or on the 7' high shelf.
The outside of the handle is NOT stainless as I reported, but rather a very nice chrome over brass. They don't make chrome like that anymore. It isn't flaking off but wearing thin from me constantly wiping the stem clean with a rag. I can see the brass thru the finish in a few places.
O.K. enough. Thanks for all the help. I will report back with the procedure used, when the handle is 100%.
Greg
Any chance something is bent in there?
Swami805,
I checked as best I can. no dings or dents and it seems straight. I swapped it out for a new one, on one of the reels a Mexican amigo owns. They aren't known for good maintenance that far down the coast.... ''It worked fine when I threw it in the locker on the boat last fall".... ya, that kinda maintenance. I think it is just so corroded with saltwater and countless days of condensation - it just gave up.
I have it soaking in a concoction of TSI-321 and tranny oil. I'll keep pulling it out, turning on it, and resubmerging until it comes free, or I'll go to plan ''B''. Like most everyone, I'm housebound (well, property bound ) and every reel, lure, pole, and even the lawnmower - cleaned, oiled, and honed to perfection nothing else to do.
Greg
Hi Greg, the TSI wont do much good @ this stage, tranny oil & Acetone 50/50 mix should be good, & keep injecting it into were you need it, if you dont want to buy a large amount of Acetone, then take air tight jar to a ship wright, they generally have plenty, a ship wright over here gets it in a 200ltr drum, good luck cheers Don.
Another approach if you can turn the knob a complete revolution, is to use a mechanical turner like a variable speed 1/2 inch drill to wear out the crud.
Make a forked rod, with wood and a bolt to hold the knot, a rag, and tape, if nothing else is available. Spray or drop in your solvent to lube. It's just friction at first. This has worked great for me on knobs and gears, drags, etc. go slow at first and then speed up the drill, it's a safe application and maybe revolutanary. Good luck 🍀. Keep us posted.
Here is a jig Harry K made to spin the handle. First picture in the post shows it
https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=7401.0
Bill
I wrap a piece of heavy cord around the knob, chuck the two ends of the cord in a drill and spin it. The cord will twist to the max and flop around a bit as it is spun around. Quick and dirty, but try not to hurt yourself.
If the knob is really to difficult to turn then it's usually hopeless in my hands.
Another alternative to muriatic acid is Ospho rust treatment. It's phosphoric acid.
-steve
update: As Don predicted, the tsi & oil mix didn't do a thing. I don't think anything with any thickness or viscosity is going to penetrate. I snuck into my wife's bathroom and stole her fingernail polish remover. Don't know what the acetone concentration is but I will try 3 days in it. I might have to go for a stronger solution. The drain cleaner worked the best but just how much of that stuff the metal can withstand before doing permanent damage is not clear. However, it's worthless in its current condition.
I will try all other options first. I cut the head off a bolt, screwed it into the handle stem, put the bolt in my cordless drill, and the black knob in the vise. Ten seconds of slow turning only resulted in making the stem so hot I burnt my fingers.
to be continued....
greg
can't believe I forgot:
some people swear by MEK for cleaning double-shielded bearings without removing shields
a much more potent solvent in the "_cetone/_ketone family"
destroys most (all?) plastic/paint and many other things
will not harm metal... pretty sure its safe for plating, ceramic coating, etc.
hard to find -- not sure if "MEK Substitute" in stores has same properties (diminished?)
NASTY -- use outside; do not inhale/touch!!!
MEK is used as a catalyst for polyester resin. Usually sold in a little one or two ounce dropper bottle with fiberglass stuff in the local hardware store. Low viscosity.
-steve
AWESOME!!! THANKS, STEVE
I had only seen it years ago, in big cans next to acetone (where "MEK Substitute" now sits)
as I understand, it was used like acetone: as a more aggressive solvent/"stripper"
with slower evaporation rate... and was phased out -- fumes too noxious
1-2 oz. dropper would be perfect for tiny shields I dare not touch, LOL
(always wanted to try it, but passed on storing the big can... when I could still get it)
With in the last couple of months I bought a litre of MEK on Ebay no problem - maybe it's different in the US :-\
Thanks Chris, what is your main use for it, cheers Don.
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on May 08, 2020, 11:57:22 PM
With in the last couple of months I bought a litre of MEK on Ebay no problem - maybe it's different in the US :-\
LOL. No, that's illegal here too. I buy all my hazardous materials on ebay because the legitimate distributors have to abide by the shipping regulations.
-steve
can't speak for all US, but in PA I can't even get ethanol unless it's denatured or weaker than 70%
Quote from: Donnyboat on May 09, 2020, 12:43:32 AM
Thanks Chris, what is your main use for it, cheers Don.
I started using it years ago as a prep agent for solvent weld plastic pipes. It is similar to acetone (they are both liquid ketones) but evaporates more slowly so can be useful in some cases - like cleaning. But acetone is a better solvent, it can dissolve more things (even though it is weaker). Mek is very good at cleaning various printing inks - in fact it is frqently used as the solvent in ink cartridges and felt tip pens (because it doesn't evaporate too quickly). It is also used as a paint thinner, iirc the original Hammerite paint used mek, but I stand to be corrected - memory isn't what it used to be ::).
Steve - mek, acetone, ipa and many other solvents ship without problems (legally) in the UK. Then again you have those companies who want to impose their own rules and regulations for shipping and charge ridiculous £££ for shipping a can of oil. I use Ebay for the convenience of buying small amounts of chemicals - I don't need, or want, a 25litr barrel of anything.
further update:
well, 2 days in fingernail polish remover - diluted acetone - and the stem spins about70% more freely than before, for maybe ten revolutions and starts getting stiff again. My Hypothesis is this: The acetone is dissolving corrosion alright but when I spin the handle the liquid evaporates. Therefore the ''inners'' are dry - no lubrication and the corrosion gets the upper hand. I will soak it further, then go to the acetone and oil bath. Thanks for all the help here, people. Really a great board.
I wanted to ask, if I'd have pressed the knob off, does the inner stem run clear to the top of the outer sleeve? like in the star drag handle picture BrandonG has posted in the thread about knobs. It would be easier to get liquid completely thru end to end, without the knob on the stem.
wishing all mothers an early ''happy mother's day''
Greg
Acetone on its own wont do much. 50/50 acetone or MEK and oil. THe MEK has longer soak time. Try and keep the shaft vertical it may help crud drain out :-\
Thanks for the heads up on the MEK Chris, we all learning, cheers Don.
Quote from: Navidad Nutcase on May 09, 2020, 04:41:40 PM
does the inner stem run clear to the top of the outer sleeve?
Yes, but it is recessed into the sleeve about a millimeter. I
suspect the steel post is first peened to the handle blade, then the sleeve is slipped over the post, then a brass rivet is driven over the outboard end of the post. The rivet is between the post and the sleeve).
Squirting something inside through the oil port would be the same as squirting something in after pulling off the plastic knob. Fluid should work its way through and drip out at the other end of the sleeve.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on May 10, 2020, 06:42:59 AM
Quote from: Navidad Nutcase on May 09, 2020, 04:41:40 PM
does the inner stem run clear to the top of the outer sleeve?
Yes, but it is recessed into the sleeve about a millimeter. I suspect the steel post is first peened to the handle blade, then the sleeve is slipped over the post, then a brass rivet is driven over the outboard end of the post. The rivet is between the post and the sleeve).
Squirting something inside through the oil port would be the same as squirting something in after pulling off the plastic knob. Fluid should work its way through and drip out at the other end of the sleeve.
-steve
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Thanks, Steve. This handle is newer than that - it bolts thru the blade. but I'm sure the same principle would apply. There is no oil hole but IS an indentation on the top of the bakelite handle. I bet one could drill a small hole in that indent and get oil to the inner stem.
However at this point, I think I have this thing licked. after again soaking all night in the nail polish remover, the handle could be turned ever so slightly with my fingers - very easy with a wrench. I soaked it in some light oil for an hour and just now took it out. Not there yet but now I can turn it easier - but not easy - with my fingers.Back to the oil bath.
Interestingly enough, I could not mix the tranny oil and the acetone together. The oil just floated. whipping the mixture helped but in 5 minutes it was separated again. If acetone will mix with oil, then the fingernail polish removers ''base'' must be water. It does not say on the label.
If I have anything further to add I will post again. but for right now I consider this one of those ''case closed'' files. Once again I want to thank everyone for all the help.
Greg
one last update. I decided to drill out an oil hole thru that little indentation on the top of the bakelite knob. Well, imagine my surprise (and no surprise to many on this board) after I drilled thru a ''skim' of black stuff, the drill bit started coming out white (salt?)with no resistant pressure on my part. Turns out there WAS an oil hole already. Just never been used. I have no idea what the black layer was. Grime of some sort. After adding a few drops of oil and working the stem back and forth the whole assembly is good as new. I am not allowing myself to imagine how this would have turned out if I'd started at the top. To depressing.
Cheers
Grg
yeah, sometimes it helps to clean the outside
before you figure out how to fix the inside ;)
Sound like a good outcome Greg, & thanks for keeping us informed, if its possible try to get some marine grease in to it, & seal the hole, now we want to see some pics of fish you catch with it, cheers Don.
Quote from: philaroman on May 10, 2020, 11:32:14 PM
yeah, sometimes it helps to clean the outside
before you figure out how to fix the inside ;)
philaroan, that's as good a saying as I've heard in a while. I'll not only remember it but am going to use it.
and good advice Donnyboat. I will plug that hole after pumping some grease in there.
stay safe everyone
Greg
Shucks. I was looking forward to the muriatic acid treatment. Is it too late?
-steve