Hi! I'm looking to get this reel for VJ and I'll be using 40 to 50 lb braid.
Can someone tell me what's max drag at strike and max drag at full for this reel?
I'm hoping for 35-40 lb at full since it's twin drag design.
Thanks! ;)
I think it's about 30# of drag; it's limited by the anti-reverse bearings. They will fail as the drag is pushed to the 30# range...
That's kinda disappointing since a lot of small single drag conventionals have ~25 lbs of max drag at full.
It's hard to believe that JM PE3 has up to 50 lbs of drag. It's also a twin drag design and similar in size to Accurate BX400XN.
Or one of the companies is understating/overstating their product's potential...
I think this is why Accurate has started putting dogs in their reels. There is a small bit of back play but dogs re more reliable than anti-reverse bearings. Having both would be ideal; however, anti-reverse bearings require constant maintenance and not everyone is willing to do that.
So BX-400XN has only anti reverse bearing, no dogs?
Altough Jm pe reels are great the pe3 and pe4 will not handle much more than 25pounds of drag before you ruin your right side plate bearing. I have crushed x3 of those bearings and I used it with max 20lb... The bearings are tiny! The reel is good for 50lb and if your IAR snaps the dogs will engage, just be prepared to ruin the right side plate bearing if you max it However The INA anti reverse bearing in the JM reels is very strong!
the bx series has two ar bearings. the old boss series had only one!
Quote from: niguevara on March 05, 2013, 03:19:00 PM
That's kinda disappointing since a lot of small single drag conventionals have ~25 lbs of max drag at full.
It's hard to believe that JM PE3 has up to 50 lbs of drag. It's also a twin drag design and similar in size to Accurate BX400XN.
Or one of the companies is understating/overstating their product's potential...
You have to take that "25lbs at full" with a number of caveats.
1. No single drag reel with a lever drag can produce 25lbs of drag without handle binding and resulting destruction of the pinion sooner or later.
2. An Accurate BX series will produce that amount of drag far smoother and with little damage to the pinion.
3. Among the dual drag reels, YES, one company claims a number with an empty spool, and the other knows that number is complete BS.
4. The Accurate BX series with instant AR is still preferred by most due to varying gearing options and preferred feel from no back play when fishing. They have to be used with acknowledgement of their limitations. If you push them too hard the AR will fail. Just like it will on any reel with an AR bearing.
5. If you don't accept those limitations there is the Dawg Pound series from Accurate with triple dogs synced for minimal handle back play and Accurate will press in AR bearings too on request. This is currently the best of all worlds.
Vertical jiggers can use 30+ pounds of drag briefly while keeping reef donkeys away from structure, so this is not purely academic. But an understanding of the capabilities and limitations of small reels will lead to more success and happiness with your purchase.
best regards
ps the BX series has two AR bearings
Thanks all, I always learn something new...
I didn't know BX400 has two IAR bearings. Cool.
It's not like I'm going to target 200lb tunas with it anyway...
Actually the BX series only has one IAR. The earlier B series had 2. As John said, a DPX400XN has 3 dogs and if asked, Accurate will press in the IAR for you. I have a 600 this way. You also might look at the DPX2400N. The low gear could come in handy. BTW, you do realize that this reel is the size of an Avet SX in line capacity? Avets only have 9 lbs at strike
Quote from: day0ne on March 05, 2013, 09:02:56 PM
Actually the BX series only has one IAR. The earlier B series had 2. As John said, a DPX400XN has 3 dogs and if asked, Accurate will press in the IAR for you. I have a 600 this way. You also might look at the DPX2400N. The low gear could come in handy. BTW, you do realize that this reel is the size of an Avet SX in line capacity? Avets only have 9 lbs at strike
Yea, the Vertical Jigging guys are always demanding as much as possible from their gear. It's only natural (if a little self centered with a splash of naive :)) to push the manufacturers on more drag and smaller reels as it is a very strenuous technique (weight is critical) but you need enormous drag at the start (imagine hooking hugely powerful 100lbers mere yards from their hiding hole). :D
Unfortunately, some of the Asian companies exploit this by quoting ridiculously unrealistic numbers for their reels on designs they took from Accurate ahem...*cough...ahem....:D
best
Gary from Accurate USA told me that bx400 has working drag of 25-28 lbs. So it's basically like JM PE4 it's just that JM uses term "efficient" drag. That makes sense if you take in account the size and drag system used on those reels.
Quote from: niguevara on March 12, 2013, 08:43:45 PM
Gary from Accurate USA told me that bx400 has working drag of 25-28 lbs. So it's basically like JM PE4 it's just that JM uses term "efficient" drag. That makes sense if you take in account the size and drag system used on those reels.
I cannot emphasize enough that reality is that they all put out the same drag if the drag washers are the same size. It is simple physics unless you use completely different material with a greatly different frictional coefficient so that it could provide more friction for less pressure from the lever.
Carbontex is I believe a by product of the aerospace industry in southern California supplying our defense industry. Asia is pretty far behind in that regard.
best
Quote from: johndtuttle on March 13, 2013, 01:56:52 AM
I cannot emphasize enough that reality is that they all put out the same drag if the drag washers are the same size. It is simple physics unless you use completely different material with a greatly different frictional coefficient so that it could provide more friction for less pressure from the lever.
Carbontex is I believe a by product of the aerospace industry in southern California supplying our defense industry. Asia is pretty far behind in that regard.
best
John, I agree with your analysis. Just wanted to add that in addition to have the same drag plate/CF washer area, the surfaces need to mate perfectly. If they don't, the effective drag area will of course be smaller. I have seen reels that don't have perfectly flat drag plates. These are low cost reels, I don't expect Accurate and JM to have this problem(?).
Another factor is the C/F material used. I have seen reports on varying quality on the CF sheet, where you can have 'high spots'. This would of course prevent the drag plate to fully contact the CF washer, which will reduce effective drag area. The fisherman who sets his drag with a scale, will button down the preset to the point where he got the drag he wanted, but now he is overloading the pinion and left spool bearing, and will get premature bearing failure. So it really doesn't help to have the most sophisticated reel, if the CF washer is of poor quality.
Spoke to kane from decoro tackle NZ. does alot of mods on accu's and JM's and we spoke a little about inserting a similar bearing like john did on his accurate inside my JM, he said there is only one problem with this and that is that the handle shaft bearings, or in this case the nylon bushing, keeps the gear in a perfect alignment. And that by just having the whole shaft with IAR it can get damaged by handle load. He did not think those IAR can handle much load and that's why they "surround the iar" with bearings...
Don't know how much those needles can carry but maybe you shouldn't wind a little more careful... Ie. only pump with the reel and rod and not use it as a winch...
I don't know, you tell me...
Quote
... He did not think those IAR can handle much load and that's why they "surround the iar" with bearings...
I don't know, you tell me...
Yes, almost. More accurately, so-called IAR "bearings" are not bearings at all, and require support to function properly. In some cases it happens to be incorporated in the IAR unit itself, and in other cases provided by supplementary bearings or bushings adjacent to the IAR unit.
.
Quote from: hafnor on March 21, 2013, 04:47:11 PM
Spoke to kane from decoro tackle NZ. does alot of mods on accu's and JM's and we spoke a little about inserting a similar bearing like john did on his accurate inside my JM, he said there is only one problem with this and that is that the handle shaft bearings, or in this case the nylon bushing, keeps the gear in a perfect alignment. And that by just having the whole shaft with IAR it can get damaged by handle load. He did not think those IAR can handle much load and that's why they "surround the iar" with bearings...
Don't know how much those needles can carry but maybe you shouldn't wind a little more careful... Ie. only pump with the reel and rod and not use it as a winch...
I don't know, you tell me...
Pretty sure those needle bearings carry load quite well and should be the equal of any standard bearing. Their elements are much longer to spread the load so that they can be thinner than standard bearings that have ball elements.
The trick to adding one to your reel is simply supporting the whole drive shaft as above. If you can find a combo of AR bearing and other bushings or bearings on either side of it you should have a strong system.
Quote
Pretty sure those needle bearings carry load quite well and should be the equal of any standard bearing. Their elements are much longer to spread the load so that they can be thinner than standard bearings that have ball elements.
Thats just it- they are
not needle bearings.
I warmly recommend further literature on the subject from one of many reliable sources:
http://www.ina.de/content.ina.de/en/branches/industry/sports_fitness/prod_sports/drawn_cup_r_clutches/drawn_cup_r_clutches.jsp
QuoteThe trick to adding one to your reel is simply supporting the whole drive shaft as above. If you can find a combo of AR bearing and other bushings or bearings on either side of it you should have a strong system.
Yes.
QuoteI cannot emphasize enough that reality is that they all put out the same drag if the drag washers are the same size. It is simple physics unless you use completely different material with a greatly different frictional coefficient so that it could provide more friction for less pressure from the lever.
Yes, an observation of great clarity! I too am inclined to agree, adding only that greater pressure from a cam and/or stronger belleville spring washers may influence things somewhat.
.
Quote from: Robert Janssen on March 21, 2013, 07:32:49 PM
Quote
Pretty sure those needle bearings carry load quite well and should be the equal of any standard bearing. Their elements are much longer to spread the load so that they can be thinner than standard bearings that have ball elements.
Thats just it- they are not needle bearings.
I warmly recommend further literature on the subject from one of many reliable sources:
Sorry for the confusion Robert. What I meant was a true needle bearing, not the needles in an AR Bearing. For example, in the ARB that I used in the Boss Fury the needle elements are not the ones functioning as AR bearings.
Quote from: niguevara on March 05, 2013, 03:19:00 PM
That's kinda disappointing since a lot of small single drag conventionals have ~25 lbs of max drag at full.
It's hard to believe that JM PE3 has up to 50 lbs of drag. It's also a twin drag design and similar in size to Accurate BX400XN.
Or one of the companies is understating/overstating their product's potential...
If you can fish/hold onto your rod with 30lb of drag for an period of time your doing very!