Rebuilding a 220 and just wanted to double check if this is correct for the drag stack and I am not missing anything? I looked at the thread with the 221 rebuild and that drag stack and spool look different. I don't have that star washer in this 220 reel, wouldn't even fit in this spool.
There are at least a couple of different spools for a 220/221.
One has the wire ring that holds all in place -- the other has the star compression keeper that holds the stack in place.
The star compression keeper will actually crack the spool on older spools.
You can experiment with what works the best on the drag stack -- should have the spring washer at the bottom, followed by a metal keyed washer, asbestos drag washer, another either keyed or round hole metal washer. Most any variation is OK if there is room for the stack -- and the drag knob will adjust properly.
Best,
Fred
So I am missing a metal washer here? Yes, I have the brass spring that locks them all in place on this spool. Also, is it ok to put some Cal's drag grease on the asbestos or no drag grease?
Drag grease should only be used on CF's (carbon fiber or HT-100's).
If used on anything slick like the resistex drags on these, nylon, or Delrin -- it is just like oiling your car brakes -- won't stop.
You might have a metal washer missing -- I cannot tell with the grease and crud on those for sure. And I am not sure what that washer is on the right.
But as long as you have a spring on the bottom, a resistex or two in the stack, and metal to separate and mate -- it will work. Resistex drags are used dry.
Best,
Fred
Fred, where does this little whitish plastic washer go? It was hidden under all the hunk and showed up in the cleaning solution.
Between the crank handle and the thumb crank nut.
Best,
Fred
Quote from: foakes on January 25, 2020, 10:51:41 PM
There are at least a couple of different spools for a 220/221.
You can experiment with what works the best on the drag stack -- should have the spring washer at the bottom, followed by a metal keyed washer, asbestos drag washer, another either keyed or round hole metal washer. Most any variation is OK if there is room for the stack -- and the drag knob will adjust properly.
Best,
Fred
Hi Fred,
Thinking about this, if you have the spring washer first, then a metal keyed washer, won't the metal spring washer be acting as a drag washer per say with metal on metal friction? I have the larger drag stack with eared washers however it has the same issue; I'm trying to figure out how I can go spring washer, eared washer, then a traditional 3 stack however fitting it all in will be the challenge!
Cheers,
Andrew
Andrew --
Yes, the spring washer will work as a drag with a metal washer.
Depending on where you wish to end up --
You can reduce the arc in the spring washer a bit, sand down the metal washers to half their thickness with a belt sander, then install thin CF's greased with Cal's.
There is room for experimenting with what you think might work -- as long as you know the basic principles of a drag stack when it comes to friction, keyed, round center, drag washers, springs, and adjustable smoothness through free spool to lockdown.
Most of what you try will generally work -- some better than others -- but all variations are pretty effective.
Best,
Fred
Quote from: Ruffy on January 26, 2020, 05:51:11 AM
Thinking about this, if you have the spring washer first, then a metal keyed washer, won't the metal spring washer be acting as a drag washer per say with metal on metal friction?
The spring washer is in a position to
act as a drag washer...but it really doesn't contribute much friction. You can see the shiny spots on the highest points of the wave where it rubs against the keyed washer above it. I usually just grease it so it slides even easier. But Fred is correct...there is room for several variations. If I was going to customize it, I'd put an eared washer on top of the spring washer and then proceed making a 3-stack of carbon fiber. With thin carbon fiber discs it should all fit. Might have to take a little off a metal washer or two. 8)
Factory washers = no oil or cal's grease , just assemble them dry?
The star spring keeper is ok to be removed?
Quote from: Gobi King on January 26, 2020, 02:28:58 PM
Factory washers = no oil or cal's grease , just assemble them dry?
The star spring keeper is ok to be removed?
Factory resistex washers are a smooth, hard material -- need to be used dry, otherwise there will be little or no drag.
The toothed keeper can be omitted, if the drag knob is always in place -- and you are not worried about losing parts when/if the drag knob is ever removed completely for any reason.
Best, Fred
I had pretty good luck on my 221 just replacing my old worn oil soaked resistax with thicker cf ones I cut/filed down myself. I went with the factory placement of the stack, my spool used the little toothed retainer washer I believe rather than the snap ring type one, but yours should use the same washers. I think you are missing a metal one. I haven't seen a need to sand down my metal washers to try and squeeze more disc in. The factory set up with cf disc has produced more than ample drag for what I use the 221 for. I have 10lb mono on one of my 221's, and 30lb braid on another. I've caught plenty of largemouth, smallmouth, and hybrid stripers on my 221's. The hybrids are what test it the most when you get a bigger one in some current they will peel some drag and really test the drag system in a smaller reel. The 221 is one of my favorites I'd really like to get my hands on a 221n.
Unfortunately, Andy --
D.A.M. never produced a 221N.
That is one reason why the "221" (a unique high speed version of the 220) is considered rare and desirable.
Few original 221's were manufactured -- and the model was never included in the "N" (newer line) of Quicks.
The early Finessa series included (7) models -- 110, 220, 221, 330, 331, 440, & 550.
In the "N" series, the 221 was discontinued -- and a 441 was added -- 110N, 220N, 330N, 331N, 440N, 441N, 550N.
Best,
Fred
Quote from: foakes on January 26, 2020, 05:08:58 AM
Between the crank handle and the thumb crank nut.
Best,
Fred
Fred,
Was putting the reel back together tonight and I have run into a few issues. First, the little "whittish" looking washer will not go behind the handle nut, I tried, I don't recall it being on there when I was taking it off. It came from somewhere else on the reel. Also, I am pretty sure I am missing one of the keyed metal washers in the drag stack. My drag knob is "sunk in" and has no adjustment. I also don't understand the spring washer going into the hole of the spool first for the drag stack. For some reason, mine is not sitting flat at the bottom, is that ok? Maybe I have another spring washer mixed up somewhere? Ugh! I need a schematic of this 220! I am about to loose my mind!
Quote from: handyandy on January 27, 2020, 01:51:36 PM
I had pretty good luck on my 221 just replacing my old worn oil soaked resistax with thicker cf ones I cut/filed down myself. I went with the factory placement of the stack, my spool used the little toothed retainer washer I believe rather than the snap ring type one, but yours should use the same washers. I think you are missing a metal one. I haven't seen a need to sand down my metal washers to try and squeeze more disc in. The factory set up with cf disc has produced more than ample drag for what I use the 221 for. I have 10lb mono on one of my 221's, and 30lb braid on another. I've caught plenty of largemouth, smallmouth, and hybrid stripers on my 221's. The hybrids are what test it the most when you get a bigger one in some current they will peel some drag and really test the drag system in a smaller reel. The 221 is one of my favorites I'd really like to get my hands on a 221n.
Andy,
What poundage / size fish are you or have you caught with no issues on that reel?
Here is a schematic --
Check out what you are missing -- and let me know. I should have all the parts you need.
No worries -- don't stress over it -- it is just a used reel that you are restoring. And I have you covered on parts.
The white nylon washer looks like the one that goes between the thumb nut and the crank handle to collapse the handle -- but I could be wrong.
These are sometimes white nylon -- and sometimes a metal wavy washer.
Add to your list -- and let me know. I can help when we return.
I will be Oscar Tango (out of town) for a week.
We are heading over to the Valley of Fire in Nevada for a week of exploring the ancient Native American Ruins there -- along with 5 days of hiking. Long day over, a day back, and hiking in between.
Will take a few photos, if anyone is interested.
Then, as soon as we return -- I have another job out of town to complete, document, and get ready for sale -- the storage parts inventory of an old tackle shop that closed over 20 years ago.
Then I need to head a little North of Denver, to pick up a travel trailer we just purchased.
In between there are around 5 or 6 other things on the family calendar -- to keep it interesting.
But I should have a little time next week to pull a few parts, if needed. No problem.
Best,
Fred
Ok thanks Fred! I wish I could trade with you and do your "adventures", come teach for me and swap for a bit! The old tackle shop is very interesting, how do you stumble on these?!
Fred!
YES, put me down for "AM Interested" in your upcoming trip to the Valley of the Fire in NV.
Never heard of the location until this am.
I love visiting new places - either in person or as a tag along.
Wayne
thanks for the pics of the old schematic Fred. I too would like to see some pics. I was out in Vegas for SEMA this past November. We wanted to go up to Valley of Fire, but didn't have the time to. When I had a spare day it was either that or Hoover Dam we opted for Hoover Dam.
That sounds like fun Fred,
If you are north of Denver, and you like some country style BBQ, Rudy's has a store near Garden City,
Handy, I have the same reel, I will post a pic of my stack (drag), my drag washers were oiled too when I got them, my bail thing is bent.
Quote from: Gobi King on January 28, 2020, 03:16:58 PM
That sounds like fun Fred,
If you are north of Denver, and you like some country style BBQ, Rudy's has a store near Garden City,
Handy, I have the same reel, I will post a pic of my stack (drag), my drag washers were oiled too when I got them, my bail thing is bent.
Yes please post a pic of your drag stack.
I was noticing your spool doesn't use the eared metal washers like my spool...which is the schematic Fred posted. Here's the drag stack from a different schematic enlarged a bit...hope it helps. 8)
Quote from: mo65 on January 29, 2020, 03:18:08 PM
I was noticing your spool doesn't use the eared metal washers like my spool...which is the schematic Fred posted. Here's the drag stack from a different schematic enlarged a bit...hope it helps. 8)
Yes, that is what my drag stack looks like sans the part # 100 058. I have no idea what that spring is and its not in my spool. I have: wavy washer, keyed metal washer, resistex drag washer, resistex drag washer and that's it.
I also think I have come to the conclusion that my ratchet under the bottom of the spool does not work. When I put all of the drags in and tighten down the drag, there is absolutely NO resistance whatsoever, the spool just turns freely in both directions easily.
Your spool needs the stack that Fred posted , and you are missing parts . That is why it is free wheeling .
That spool does not have the 2 groves for ear washer .
I do not know if this will help or get you into trouble . https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=24932.0
Quote from: oldmanjoe on January 30, 2020, 12:56:53 AM
Your spool needs the stack that Fred posted , and you are missing parts . That is why it is free wheeling .
That spool does not have the 2 groves for ear washer .
I do not know if this will help or get you into trouble . https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=24932.0
But my spool does not have that "star washer" configuration. The star washer will not fit in my spool at all.
Quote from: Beachmaster on January 30, 2020, 02:37:37 AM
My spool does not have that "star washer" configuration. The star washer will not fit in my spool at all.
You are correct...forget about that "star washer" configuration. I looked hard at that schematic I posted...and to the best of my eyesight that is a coil spring you're missing. Since it looks pretty tall, that would explain why you have no drag power. It's not uncommon to see these coil springs in drag stacks...I have many reels that use them. They actually produce a nice range of action. If you can't find a coil spring that fits...just fill in the gap with regular drag springs/wave washers at the bottom in an alternating pattern like this:
()() You may only need two or three. 8)
Quote from: mo65 on January 30, 2020, 01:18:57 PM
Quote from: Beachmaster on January 30, 2020, 02:37:37 AM
My spool does not have that "star washer" configuration. The star washer will not fit in my spool at all.
You are correct...forget about that "star washer" configuration. I looked hard at that schematic I posted...and to the best of my eyesight that is a coil spring you're missing. Since it looks pretty tall, that would explain why you have no drag power. It's not uncommon to see these coil springs in drag stacks...I have many reels that use them. They actually produce a nice range of action. If you can't find a coil spring that fits...just fill in the gap with regular drag springs/wave washers at the bottom in an alternating pattern like this: ()() You may only need two or three. 8)
Ok will do Mo. I will "borrow" a few from my 330 and test it and see what happens. It'll be friday evening before I get a chance to mess with it again.
One other question...is it necessary to have the brass retaining ring or any retaining ring seated at the top in order to keep the drags from falling out? As long as you know there is not one there and when you are careful taking the spool cap off? I am thinking that as long as you don't go above flush with the drag hole on then that's ok?
Quote from: Beachmaster on January 30, 2020, 02:36:28 PM
One other question...is it necessary to have the brass retaining ring or any retaining ring seated at the top in order to keep the drags from falling out? As long as you know there is not one there and when you are careful taking the spool cap off? I am thinking that as long as you don't go above flush with the drag hole on then that's ok?
Yes...as long as you're careful when unscrewing the drag knob you could skip the retaining ring. I'd just leave it out while you're experimenting to find the correct stack height, then add it back when finished. I think you'll be fine now...but if it still gives you trouble...Fred will be back next week. We'll get you going one way or another. 8)
Thank you sir!
I just don't get it. I'm beginning to wonder if this is even the correct spool for this reel. I forgot to mention that it does make a dragging sound too when cranking the handle. I can't find anywhere on the spool where it might be rubbing. Here are pics of the bottom of the spool and the cap removed with the drag stack full and nut tightened all way down. I can simply just turn the nut with the very easy pressure and the whole spool just turns smooth and very yeast no matter how tight or loose the spool cap is. Do you see anything out of place in these pics? Wrong spool or what?!
I have a video if anyone is interested.
Before you go any farther...post a pic of the entire drag stack. Place the parts in a line with the retaining ring on the left and the bottom washer on the right. We'll go from there.
Here ya go Mo...
that does not look like what I have, I will crack mine open in a few, sorry, have been side tracked with sick kiddo.
OK...it looks like whoever had this thing before you subbed in more Resistex to make up for the thickness of the missing #100 058 spring. I believe I would change it so all the Resistex is stacked under the keyed metal washer...with that keyed washer at the top of the stack.
I also just noticed on an earlier post you mentioned this:
Quote from: Beachmaster on January 29, 2020, 11:45:19 PM
I also think I have come to the conclusion that my ratchet under the bottom of the spool does not work. When I put all of the drags in and tighten down the drag, there is absolutely NO resistance whatsoever, the spool just turns freely in both directions easily.
Even with no drag washers
at all in the spool that AR should still click. Check to see if the spool sleeve is locking into the axle correctly.
That drag combination could never work, all washers would rotate giving a couple of pounds of drag... if that.
You might have a missing metal washer.
It doesn't make sense to me.
Sal
Quote from: Alto Mare on February 02, 2020, 04:00:10 PM
That drag combination could never work, all washers would rotate giving a couple of pounds of drag... if that.
You might have a missing metal washer.
It doesn't make sense to me.
The keyed washer won't rotate...it's fixed to the sleeve. If you look at the schematic I posted earlier it makes more sense. It's confused by all the Resistex added to make up for the missing height of #100 058.
There does not appear to be an eared washer to transfer drag to the spool? - Jimmer
Quote from: Jimmer on February 02, 2020, 04:18:58 PM
There does not appear to be an eared washer to transfer drag to the spool? - Jimmer
Correct...no eared washers in this setup. It's a very basic system, where the spool is "pinched" between the top keyed washer and the under spool washer. Some of the 270s used this system too.
Quote from: mo65 on February 02, 2020, 03:56:02 PM
OK...it looks like whoever had this thing before you subbed in more Resistex to make up for the thickness of the missing #100 058 spring. I believe I would change it so all the Resistex is stacked under the keyed metal washer...with that keyed washer at the top of the stack.
I also just noticed on an earlier post you mentioned this:
Quote from: Beachmaster on January 29, 2020, 11:45:19 PM
I also think I have come to the conclusion that my ratchet under the bottom of the spool does not work. When I put all of the drags in and tighten down the drag, there is absolutely NO resistance whatsoever, the spool just turns freely in both directions easily.
Even with no drag washers at all in the spool that AR should still click. Check to see if the spool sleeve is locking into the axle correctly.
Mo, I did just what you said and no difference with anything. The AR does click. As far as I can tell the spool sleeve is locking in correctly. I found (5) of the #100 058 springs on Ebay and they should be here tomorrow or Tuesday. I am betting that this is the culprit?
Do you have the two correct washers between the spool and the spindle/ratchet wheel? It almost appears that maybe someone took those two and added them to the spool group when they lost or removed the spool coil spring.
Quote from: Beachmaster on February 02, 2020, 07:37:26 PM
Mo, I did just what you said and no difference with anything. The AR does click. As far as I can tell the spool sleeve is locking in correctly. I found (5) of the #100 058 springs on Ebay and they should be here tomorrow or Tuesday. I am betting that this is the culprit?
From what I can see it just about has to be the culprit. That spring looks pretty thick...it would take a whole stack of washers to equal it's height...bet you'll get some "squeeze" happening now.
Quote from: mo65 on February 02, 2020, 10:12:07 PM
Quote from: Beachmaster on February 02, 2020, 07:37:26 PM
Mo, I did just what you said and no difference with anything. The AR does click. As far as I can tell the spool sleeve is locking in correctly. I found (5) of the #100 058 springs on Ebay and they should be here tomorrow or Tuesday. I am betting that this is the culprit?
From what I can see it just about has to be the culprit. That spring looks pretty thick...it would take a whole stack of washers to equal it's height...bet you'll get some "squeeze" happening now.
Yup. That's them. It looks like the 220 is the only one other than the 238 and the other models in that older line that use these springs.
Quote from: Midway Tommy on February 02, 2020, 10:01:35 PM
Do you have the two correct washers between the spool and the spindle/ratchet wheel? It almost appears that maybe someone took those two and added them to the spool group when they lost or removed the spool coil spring.
Good question Tommy, I have only a thin resistex washer under the ratchet wheel (between the bottom of the spool and ratchet wheel) According to the schematic that Mo posted, which is the correct one for my reel, it would be parts #100 066 and #100 067 but I don't see a parts list explaining what those washers are supposed to be? Check that, looking at the one Fred posted it's part numbers #100 086 and #100 087 which is a resistex and a metal washer. So I will fix that and see if anything changes.
Quote from: Beachmaster on February 02, 2020, 10:19:38 PM
Quote from: Midway Tommy on February 02, 2020, 10:01:35 PM
Do you have the two correct washers between the spool and the spindle/ratchet wheel? It almost appears that maybe someone took those two and added them to the spool group when they lost or removed the spool coil spring.
Good question Tommy, I have only a thin resistex washer under the ratchet wheel (between the bottom of the spool and ratchet wheel) According to the schematic that Mo posted, which is the correct one for my reel, it would be parts #100 066 and #100 067 but I don't see a parts list explaining what those washers are supposed to be? Check that, looking at the one Fred posted it's part numbers #100 086 and #100 087 which is a resistex and a metal washer. So I will fix that and see if anything changes.
Good point Tom...I forgot to mention the under spool washers. And you're right Beachmaster, that schematic doesn't list those washers, but they
are a thin Resistex and a thin brass washer.
Aaaaaannnnd...we have SUCCESS!! It was the damn washers under the ratchet wheel! I put the resistex directly under the spool and the brass on top of resistex against the ratchet wheel and it worked! Albeit, not a lot of drag range but WAY better than what it was and it will tighten down to where I have to apply a pretty darn good effort to turn the spool. I bet when I get that spring in the drag stack it will be back to normal!
My only issue, not a big one but a bothersome one is trying to figure out where this darn scrapping sound is coming from. I can't find anywhere on this spool where there are indications that it is scraping anything in the rotor housing...?
I am going to have to learn how these darn drags work. Keyed washers, resistex, CF, metal washers, etc. I feel like this is the only system on reels that I just don't understand how they work yet.
To all who have posted and helped figure this out...Y'ALL ARE THE BEST!
Way to go! I bet when those coil springs arrive your drag range will come back. As far as that scrapping sound, I have a 220 and a 270 that do the same thing. I've never pinpointed it yet. I think it's just the nature of the beast. Enjoy your reel! 8)
Man I am so excited. I have a yellow Eagle Claw Featherlight 6-12 lb 6'6" rod that I am about to go put it on and make some casts in the yard with it! To me this 220 is about the same size/class as a Penn 712Z.
Mike, I think maybe the schematic you posted is such the the 8 in 100-086 & 100-087 actually looks like a 6 but is really an 8. Especially since Fred's schematic lists those same washers & part #s and his is a little more legible. You might want to check your copy to see if part of that 8 is faint.
Quote from: Midway Tommy on February 03, 2020, 04:00:26 AM
Mike, I think maybe the schematic you posted is such the the 8 in 100-086 & 100-087 actually looks like a 6 but is really an 8. Especially since Fred's schematic lists those same washers & part #s and his is a little more legible. You might want to check your copy to see if part of that 8 is faint.
I thought the same thing Tommy. Springs will be here tomorrow, mail is running late for some reason...
Got it! Works great!