Bryan,
What defines a rail rod and what lengths do you recommend for 40#, 60#, 80/100#?
Leo
Leo,
I know little about rail rods except they are made so that you rest the rod on the rail and this will allow you to use our weight to push the butt end of the rod down while pulling the fish up. I've watched a few videos, but other than that, rail rods are new to me. Sorry, I cannot help, but there are a lot of long range fisherman here that would be able to provide additional information.
Bryan
I have seen Plates that you can affix to a Rod that allows you to use the rail without so much damage & pressure on the Rod...
Edit;
Just googled Rail rods, amazing what you can learn.
Lots of info I wasnt aware of.. :o
Leo,
Rail rod is by definition a rod designed to be placed on the rail of a long range boat (the rails are high enough).
they are build so that you can get significant leverage by placing your body weight on the butt of the rod. Many have developed techniques like sitting on the rod, straddling the rod, leg over the rod or simply rod under your arm pit while kneeling. In order for this all to work the rods are extremely stiff in the butt and very stiff in the mid section.A stand up rod generally has more parabolic flex through the mid section. If a parabolic rod is used on the rail it will tend to bend too much in the mid section making it difficult to gain line. The final thought on the rail rods is that they are designed to be placed on the rail (fore grip area) and not break under very heavy bending pressure. One of the issues with rail rods is the fore grips take a beating and can be shreaded afer only one fish.
Jim N.
Thanx Guys,
I appreciate your contributions and details. Id been interested in the rail rod concept for a little while now since I injured my lower back; even used the straddling the rod technique with suprising success (Calstar 6465H). With my back sensitivity/limitations Im very interested in something for the 40# to 60# class. I was wondering what rod lengths are use for these rods as well as material (glass or composite)?
Jim: I suspected that the mid section of the rod must be reinforced to some extent to withstand the bulk of the pressure from resting on the rail as well as a faster taper than parabolic. And thanx for mentioning the abuse to the hypalon on the foregrip.
Leo
40-60# class you'll want at least 7ft.
Graphite composites rule the roost now, and most guys cover the foregrip with a hot shrink wrap called X wrap, or a product called '3M Cold shrink'. Both are replacable if they get torn. There is a rod builder named "Saltydawg" who makes rods with a great foregrip for railing. I had him build my latest . . . awesome.
Leo,
The going trend (kind of) is to go to what I call very long rods (8-9 feet) with a soft tip section. This is to get the bait way out there and get the fish that are out of reach of everyone else. For me I just can't see battling a large fish (100# +) on such a long rod. I would get beat up. Also now days you will often have to deal with a kite line 10-12 feet over your head. It's bad enough trying to cast with a 7' rod and keep it under the kite.
BTW Most fore grips these days will hold up for 30-50# leader fishing.
I fish mostly 30-40# for everything and I tend to use finesse techniques for YFT in the 65-125# range.
My personal preference is 7' railable rods with a fast tip that is slightly parabolic in the top 40% of the rod. The concept is a soft tip to make casting 1 oz sardines easy and the rod will fish with an effective length of around 5.5' with a full bend in it. This is to make it easier to leverage the fish while still having enough length to move the fish around when coming to gaff. This all comes at a cost $$ since this usually requires a graphite composit. I will be trying a set of New Makaira offshore rods for 30-50# in about 10 days to see if they cut the mustard. If they hold up they will be a great value at $180 each. Seems a little silly to match a $475 reel on a $180 rod. I have a hard time justifying $500 for a Phoenix hybrid at this time. There will be a few on this trip to check out.
Have fun,
Jim N.
QuoteFor me I just can't see battling a large fish (100# +) on such a long rod. I would get beat up.
x2 - that's been my experience also...
Cheers, Justin
http://www.peacetoken.com/rail-plate.html
QuoteI will be trying a set of New Makaira offshore rods for 30-50# in about 10 days to see if they cut the mustard. If they hold up they will be a great value at $180 each. Seems a little silly to match a $475 reel on a $180 rod. I have a hard time justifying $500 for a Phoenix hybrid at this time. There will be a few on this trip to check out.
Have fun,
Jim N.
Jim,
How did the Makaira rods do?
Quote from: redsetta on July 03, 2012, 06:58:26 AM
QuoteFor me I just can't see battling a large fish (100# +) on such a long rod. I would get beat up.
x2 - that's been my experience also...
Cheers, Justin
I have a 7' 150lb rail rod (Seeker 2x4 blank) that does not beat me up much more than my shorter rods when using the rail properly. If I was going to do another it will be a Seeker 2x3 blank 130lb rod though, the 2x4 is too much for me at 140-145 pounds.
Quote from: Nessie Hunter on July 03, 2012, 05:37:00 PM
http://www.peacetoken.com/rail-plate.html
Using the lower rod section (versus using the foregrip) as the fulcrum point for a rod on the rail (as the Peacetoken plate does) seem like a really good way to turn a 1-piece rod into a 2-piece rod......
Leo I'm not sure some know what rail rods are so here are some examples.
Calstar Graphiter
GFGR 765XH 6.5' 7 FUJI CAST AFTCO 60-130 Heavy
GFGR 765XXH 6.5' 7 FUJI CAST AFTCO 80-130 Heavy
GFGR 765XXXH 6.5' 7 FUJI CAST AFTCO 80-UNLIMITED Heavy
GFGR 770H 7' 8 FUJI CAST AFTCO 50-80 Heavy
GFGR 770XH 7' 8 FUJI CAST AFTCO 60-120 Heavy
GFGR 770XXH 7' 8 FUJI CAST AFTCO 80-130 Heavy
GFGR 770XXXH 7' 8 FUJI CAST AFTCO 80-UNLIMITED Heavy
Seeker Rail Boss
RR50-6 1/2′ 6'6″ 40-60
RR60-6 1/2′ 6'6″ 50-80
RR80-6 1/2′ 6'6″ 60-100
RR100-6 1/2′ 6'6″ 80-OMG!
Super Seeker
NEW SS 1 x 3 -7' SS-21x 4 7' 60 (80-100) 130
NEW SS 2 x 4 -7' SS-2 x 4 7' 60 (100-130) 130
NEW SS 3 x 5 -7' SS-3 x 5 7' unlimited
Do you see a common theme? All are from 6.5' to 7'.
With the Super Seeker line you see a 1 X 3, 2 X 4 and a 3 X 5. The rods are rated in kind of a way people familure with big game rods should understand. Big game rods usualy come with a XH, XXH, XXXH and XXXXH rating depending on the line test used for the rod. With the SS rods a 1 X 3 means it has a tip rating of a XH rod and a butt section rating of a XXXH. The 2 X 4 has a tip of a XXH and butt of a XXXXH and so on. Hope this helps
Dominic/SoCal,
Thanx for the listing and clarification on Seekers coding/class. Well I hadnt visisted this thread since about June but evidently Im not the only one interested (over 1K views) so I thank you for all the rest. Like Ive said before, you MUST be reading my mind with your timing and thanx again for your due-diligence for details. I can now take the info you have given and apply "personal professional over-run" to it and figure-out what works best for me. I always look forward to your comments and posts. Sal, JGB, Justin, Dom, etc, etc I havent forgot about you guy at all (or Alan or Bryan) and appreciate all who contribute to make this site FANTASTIC for a fishing nut like myself. I feel comfortable here.
Good fishing, peace and blessings Dominic and all,
Leo
PS Hope I didnt mispell your name, been away from the site for a little while.
In the Calstar rod I think the 7465 series rods are considered more of a rail rod than the straight 765 series rods. At least, 5 years ago that was my understanding, this info could be outdated now.
John
The rods I listed are the most recent from Calstar and I don't think they have even been out 5 years? I believe these models were designed with the rail in mind.
Edit: All the rods I listed only come factory wrapped with ringed guides. As you know almost all rail guys have come full circle (pun intended) and only use ringed guides. Some do use a roller tip top on the heavier models but that is about it.
Now I remember, the 7465 series were only available in a blank. I had several built mostly with ringed guides and a couple with rollers. I have sinced sold the roller rods and replaced them with more of the 7465 ringed rods.
John
SoCal,
Ringed guides; you mean like the chromed Perfection Guides? If so, why? What happened to rollers or SIC? Please explain.
Thanx,
Leo
Yes, Perfection's or guides with inserts like Fugi, American Tackle and others. The whole idea behind roller guides is less friction which causes much less damage to the mono lines, like flatting out the mono while on big fish, among other issues while battling with the give and take of the line running through the guides. With spectra there is no damage to the line going through the ringed guides. Roller guides can fail, it's rare but if your on a fish of a lifetime in cow town the weakest link in any ones gear will be highly magnified. Spectra lines can also get caught between the rollers and frames again it's rare but does happen. Lastly the upkeep of rings vs. rollers is much less and one less thing to worry about.
Quote from: john2244 on September 24, 2012, 06:09:11 AM
Now I remember, the 7465 series were only available in a blank. I had several built mostly with ringed guides and a couple with rollers. I have sinced sold the roller rods and replaced them with more of the 7465 ringed rods.
John
John I'm sure the blanks you got will serve your needs well. I'm a Calstar guy and about 90% of my rods use their blanks. It does not have to say it was build for the rail to be fished on the rail.
I was just trying to give some here that don't know what a rail rod was some examples. Most people that are not here in So Cal will never get to see these fine rods by Calstar and Seeker and thats a shame. Fishing standup style with live bait from a anchored or drifting boats is how he do things and we require gear that most of the world may not need but I think it keeps us on the cutting edge. Right where I like it.
SoCal,
Once again I had a CRS (cant remember s***) flare-up and referred to you by another name (Dominic/SoCal). MY BAD, I'll contribute it to being away for awhile. Anywho, I had no idea that us in So Cal, USA were so privileged with the "bleeding-edge" tackle thats manufactured locally. Living in LA, CA Ive went to Calstar and spoken with Leon, fished with, talked at length with and friend of Russ Iszors (pioneer of braided fishing line), visited Cal @ Calsheets (couldnt afford anything), sometimes go to Avet to get parts and talk, etc., etc. I just took it for granted that most SERIOUS fisherman on EARTH own or have experienced these products until I started reading fishing forums (little less than a year ago). I guess its just like me not experiencing JB reels, etc. :o
Like you SoCal; about 95% of my rods are custom-built Calstar/Seeker (bulk of these being Calstar). So SoCal, Ive an old (beautiful custom) original Sabre Stroker 655TSS (5.5 foot,100#) cow/trolling rod with these killer Fuji heavy duty Titanium/SIC guides. Im pondering to strip these guides and use them on a heavy-duty rail rod, whats your thoughts on this cannibalism? ::)
I still have a Calstar Boomer Jr w/all AFTCO rollers for 80# trolling rig. Can I use this rod for heavy duty bottom fishing as well or is it too short for that? if I hook another 200lb giant black sea bass the rod will instantly get put on the rail at my age/condition so Im wondering it will work out in this kind of instance.
Thanx again,
Leo
Leo here is my take for what it's worth.
I would not strip off the guides from the other rod if you ever plan on using it again or selling it because you would need to replace them. With a 5.5' rod stepping up to a 6.5' or 7' cow rail rod you will need to add at least one or two guides more than the Stroker has. Combining older guides with new ones should be fine but I'd just go all new for piece of mind. With all the costs of a trip for hunting cow tuna, like trip cost, gear purchases, fish processing, tip for the crew and other stuff a set of new guides is a pretty minimal added expense IMO.
The BB Jr.'s were designed for use with a harness and for when/if you ever needed to jump off the LR boat into a skiff to chase down a monster fish. Also guys use them when they fish the banks off Cabo in panga's for the large tuna. Short rods works well for these, but with the advent of spectra skiff's are not used much any more in the LR fleet. The longer rail rods have two main functions in cow fishing. First is having a softer tip which aids in not pulling hooks with the spectra lines and heavy drag settings. The lack of stretch of spectra is offset by the longer/softer tips. The other is during the end game while rail fishing when the tuna are doing their "death circles" the longer rod helps keep the line off the boat. Most other fishes like BSB, Grouper, YT and others don't do the large "death circles" for the most part that tuna do so for bottom fishing that rod should be fine IMO. That rod would be good for dropper loop fishing when you need to button down the drags and turn the fishes head away from structure.
Quote from: SoCalAngler on September 26, 2012, 07:49:10 AM
First is having a softer tip which aids in not pulling hooks with the spectra lines and heavy drag settings. The lack of stretch of spectra is offset by the longer/softer tips. The other is during the end game while rail fishing when the tuna are doing their "death circles" the longer rod helps keep the line off the boat.
My Seeker 2x4 has a stiff tip, it is a early blank, I'd hate to see what a 3x5 is like. I lost my largest YFT to date when the line bumped the hull seconds before the pusher got there, an extra six inches or foot of rod might have prevented the loss.
Before LR trips I was a Lamiglass fan.......now I prefer SoCal rods, especially the Seeker Hercules blanks I have.
Great point Keta but remember a 2 X 4 has the tip section of a XXH rod and butt section of a XXXXH. Stiff Yes, but not as stiff as the older XXXXH rods in the tip section.
SoCal,
Here's my thought processing: Yes I will have to add one or two more guides to the intended rail rod; but over-all Im still talking about a tremonduous overall savings. The guides that are currently on the 655TSS cost close to $200 and the couple of extra guides will cost less than $100. Now, regarding these intact as-it-sits rods I was thinking that since Ive the Boomer Jr which is just a notch down in line class (100 vs 80#) that having two somewhat obsolete rods isnt worth much to me unless I can find some practical use for them. If I cant find practical uses for both them then whats the loss of one if it has valuable parts to help in the building of something better suited to my needs currently. The rod that Im thinking to cannibalize (Sabre Stroker 655TSS) is in "mint condition" and the guides are in "damm-near" new condition (I mostly used the Boomer Jr I dont know why).
I need to know some "practical" uses for these rods AND value of these rods (if I decide to sell one) in order to make an informed decision to sell or cannabilize. I really can use your help w/this guys. Hold on to two rods with very limited usage or sell/cannabilize one to create something I can use.
Thanx,
Leo
If you don't have it covered already I'd use the BB Jr. for local and trips up to 6-7 days in length for trolling, maybe heavy yoyo iron. Also for what I mentioned before, heavy dropper loop , again if you don't have it covered already. As you stated 80 lb rated rods have a narrow window already even more so if your looking to mainly fish the rail.
As far as the Sabre the best thing going for it is the guides. Stripped of them I don't think you'd even be able to sell it. Now if it was a Sabre made by California Tackle and not a Stroker, collectors would probably want to buy it.
SoCal, thanks for sticking with me on this topic. I appreciate it.
Yes, :o the Sabre is OG (original gangster) built by Leon @ California Tackle. Its not none of the new Penn pseudo Sabre (not to offend any who have the new Strokers by Penn). Im just partial to the old-school branding. Man SoCal Im glad you caught that. So where does that leave US now? ::)
Much Thanx,
Leo
Wha are tjese 200lb black sea bass yall are talkin bout? We have Black sea Bass over here on the east coast but the are usually only a pound or so
What Im referring to specifically (to the best of my abilities) are "giant black sea bass". SoCal or some left-coast person can probably give you a more "global" name. They used to be common over here till over-fished causing a bann here in the US and maybe in Mexico now. Anywho, there on the come-back now and some people know where some "honey-holes" of them are up and down the coast where quite often when your fishing for "other" species you run into these as well. Stiff fines for keeping this species and when you do inadvertently catch them you must decompress their air bladder (hypodermic needle) and allow them to recover and release. Glad to see them on the come-back.
Leo