Rod Builders,
Bryan if you dont chime in on this Im going to feel totally neglected man :'( :'( :'(. When I go to tackle stores and look at all the factory built rods and look at a praticular model and compare it to others of the same model. One cant help but notice that the guides are ALL spaced EXACTLY the same. We all know that manufacturers tend to MINIMIZE costs by minimizing labor and materials, therefore IMHO the logical deduction from this is that factory rods are a COMPRIMISE of the FULL POTENTIAL of the rods PERFORMANCE. This is what led me to getting my rods custom wrapped shortly after my introduction to fishing. That aside from, type and amount of guides, differnt reel seats, etc. etc..
Now, Im interested in getting a new spinning rod to do some popper fishing with and possibly a couple of conventional rods later this year. However, Ive noticed of my little handfull of spinning rods only one is custom wrapped (a prototype/experimental ultra light 8 foot) and the rest are factory wrapped. My reasoning behind this was that other than the prototype ultra light which I use alot at the marina, the others were basicallly for guests who dont fish who come fishing with me from time to time. All spinning rods are Seeker brand, quality rods.
Nowadays I dont have $300 to spend every time I buy a rod and dont want to spend $300 on every rod. What I would like to know is how far off from optimum performance are factory rods built compared to your custom rods that you build of the same model (ALL COMPONENTS BEING EQUAL)?
Thanx in advance for your comments,
Leo
Quote from: LTM on February 17, 2014, 05:06:26 AM
Rod Builders,
Bryan if you dont chime in on this Im going to feel totally neglected man :'( :'( :'(. When I go to tackle stores and look at all the factory built rods and look at a praticular model and compare it to others of the same model. One cant help but notice that the guides are ALL spaced EXACTLY the same. We all know that manufacturers tend to MINIMIZE costs by minimizing labor and materials, therefore IMHO the logical deduction from this is that factory rods are a COMPRIMISE of the FULL POTENTIAL of the rods PERFORMANCE. This is what led me to getting my rods custom wrapped shortly after my introduction to fishing. That aside from, type and amount of guides, differnt reel seats, etc. etc..
Now, Im interested in getting a new spinning rod to do some popper fishing with and possibly a couple of conventional rods later this year. However, Ive noticed of my little handfull of spinning rods only one is custom wrapped (a prototype/experimental ultra light 8 foot) and the rest are factory wrapped. My reasoning behind this was that other than the prototype ultra light which I use alot at the marina, the others were basicallly for guests who dont fish who come fishing with me from time to time. All spinning rods are Seeker brand, quality rods.
Nowadays I dont have $300 to spend every time I buy a rod and dont want to spend $300 on every rod. What I would like to know is how far off from optimum performance are factory rods built compared to your custom rods that you build of the same model (ALL COMPONENTS BEING EQUAL)?
Thanx in advance for your comments,
Leo
Leo, let's put it this way...if you buy a set of rods from a custom rod builder, what do you notice? If you notice the same things that I notice, I would look for an off the shelf rod with an excellent warranty. Have you figured it out yet? Yes, the guides are spaced exactly from one rod to another. Today, rod builders really don't make much money considering the work and inventory that they must carry, so to save time they too use standard spacing between guides. A true custom rod builder of the past are gone. I was taught to measure a person and spec their rod based on the fish they were going for, length preferences, number of guides, and the intended reel to be fished with that rod. I used to make a series of rods for a customer and they would complain that the guides were not in the same location for all rods. I had to explain that each rod has a different bend and would show them with a reel and line going through the guides and have them check the angles of the line on each guide at full load. He would understand that it was best but didn't like the non-uniformity and wanted all of the guides spaced the same from one rod to the next. So unless I am building my own rods, I am buying off the shelf with good warranties. But, the wraps are not as good, I don't get to choose colors, there usually no underwrap so my blank is unprotected, and I will never have those awesome decorative wraps.
With that said, it takes me a long time to find a rod that I like. I have to feel and bend each rod and it's like 1 out of 20-50 rods that I feel before I buy one. Major issues with off the shelf are guides off spline, improper bend to guide placement and my worst is insufficient amount of guides so the line slaps the blank during a cast or loaded down.
one store that I have found in Orange is Long Fin. They sell used reels. I was able to mount a reel on several rods that I was looking and feed the line through the guides to look at the bend an d guide placement and ended buying a rod from there at my second visit (I flew my first visit and could not bring a rod back).
So, my recommendation is if you are going to buy a rod, take your lined reel into the store and go with a couple people. One to hold the rod. The other to hold the line as the first person loads the rod and see how the line goes through the guides. Entering angle should be close to the exiting angle. Once confirmed, check the feel by trading places. Note, before doing this, find a rod you are interested in. Check guide alignment on the spline and by checking the guies are in line, feel the bend, and then, most importantly, ask permission to moint the reel on the rod.
for the reel, make sure the reel is smooth footed so you don't damage the rod when mounted.
Bryan,
Thanx by the way for responding. Yes, I answered the question immediately. " A true custom rod builder of the past are gone" Your not kidding Bryan. Ive asked rod builders if they are going to measure me, and dont you want to know what reel Im using and all of the "IMPORTANT" info and if they say no, I dont get the rod wrapped by them. I CANT FIND A REAL ROD BUILDER ANY MORE. All one is getting is basically factory spacing and your custom colors. Aside from the rod actually needing an extra guide or two, the extra guides KINDA make them put a little more effort into guide placement. The two people who have been building most of my rods in the past hate to see me coming to build a rod because Im so OLD SCHOOL about having my rods built. I mean they tell me I make bulilding my rods difficult STRAIGHT OUT!! I dont mean to piss-off the builders, I just want my moneys worth for a TRUE CUSTOM ROD!! iS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK FOR? Evidently it is, and thats why I posted this subject. And thats why Im leaning towards just getting these next few rods as off the shelf items. Ive got two blanks kitted out with just handles and no guides for the past 3-4 years causse I cant find anyone to build me a true custom rod. If my eyes werent getting so bad I'd wrapp them myself. >:( >:( >:( Thanx Bryan for answering this important question for me and hopefully others. I bet if people were to stop buying custom rods and protest to the rod builders for real custom rods things would change. Does anyone in the SoCal area know of a TRUE CUSTOM ROD BUILDER(S)? If so please send me a PM.
Bryan, you answered my question completely.
Thank you,
Leo
Bryan,
Forgot to ask, what do you mean by "Entering angle should be close to the exiting angle."?
Leo
Hi Leo,
I would generally concur with Brian about the lack of 'old fashioned' custom rod builders, and the comments about clients wanting uniformity in a range of dissimilar rods.
Being of an age, that I was brought up following the guidelines of the older generation of rod builders, we do actually look at the size of people that we build rods for. In surf rods it is even more critical than for normal boat rods, and the like, but still equally relevant. Our biggest sales asset is that we have a range of blanks that we use currently for surf fishing, and have samples of all of these in our shop. When folks come in with an inquiry, we send them home to fetch their reel, and then invite them to come back and 'test drive' a selection. During these tests, one rod will jump out at the customer, as the one they feel most comfortable with, and possibly yields the best casting distance. After we have done that, then simple things like handle, ring types and the finally colour schemes all become important, but we have found the most critical item that makes a custom rod the one that suits a customer – special – the blank.
We do build by spine, and that is infinitely critical, a good friend brought 6 rods in for a full strip and refurbishment, they were his guiding rods to be used with clients, and all identical models, but one had a piece of tape on it, and this was 'his favourite', this rod was just 'sweet'. When we had all the rods stripped, and they were all factory built, the 'sweet rod' had actually been built on the spine – basically by accident. The rest were way off and had to be corrected, by removing the reel seats.
Even with spinning and casting rods for fresh water, we do ask to see the clients or at least have an idea of their physique, as these all play into the possibilities of blank selection, where ladies or youngsters might favour a slightly softer model blank for the same style of fishing. We had this recently with some clients across from Botswana, they have a problem in that they have found a big dam with some huge Bass in it – up to 8.6kgs (approaching 19lbs). The group was one whole family of dedicated anglers, and we ended up with needing 3 different strengths of blank to suit their personal needs, and basically handle lengths were different, as well as the strength and action of the blanks. This is where a good custom rod builder scores over what are glorified rod wrappers – the personal interface.
Even when we are building rods remote to be sent abroad, we will ask some simple questions, like the length of a person's arm, or the distance between the elbow and crease of the hand, as all these types of measurements help us get the things like reel seats in the exact right place. Where you will find such now a days is hard to advise, but keep shopping around until you find one, then support him wholly, as the rewards will be yours.
The point about factory rods, is that they are making them for a standard size person, and from there, they cannot deviate. If you don't fit their 'standard model' then you have a problem. Our biggest challenges to date have been a spinning rod for a guy with one arm, and another guy wanted a surf rod, and he had a severely foreshortened arm. We worked with both to get the perfect fit, and now they are basically permanent customers.
Cheers from sunny Africa
Jeri
There's a few old school shops up here in N.E. I have custom made rods,& they actually cost less than the same brand store bought rods. lamiglas fenwick, solid glass & a seeker.I picked guides took, measurements etc. Most of The $ for a custom is in the fancy decorative wrap. the sky is the limit on wraps.The price could even triple. I kept it simple.good components 1 thread color. The seeker fit me great,but was made for somebody else that never picked it up for a year. That is my only custom rod with a decorative wrap. Most store bought rods have guides that are too small & handles that are too short. I have brought many rods in & had them re-worked too.
Custom rods = better value for the money. Better components, care and logic can be incorporated into the build if done by an experienced craftsman. Simple but important steps sometimes get overlooked by big rod manufacturers for various reasons. Here's an example: most rods with underwraps extend entirely under the guide. Those with metalic thread as an underwrap will not allow the epoxy to penetrate the threads and bind the guide to the blank. Before double or even triple overwrapping depending on the rod, I extend the underwrap just enough under the guide to be seen then finish underwrapping in this case with black NCP. I have never had a guide move or lose its adhesion. This is just one small example of attention to detail you won't find in mass produced rods. Threadwork and artistry is an entirely different story.
Better pic of underwrap and double overwrapping.
hmm haha maybe its time u build your own rods?
i dont really do the same time of fishing that majority of u guys here do!
I pretty much lure/jig and many of the top brands for jigging and bass fishing( i dun use bass rods for bass.... haha no bass where i stay)
do not release their blanks separately... so i've got no choice but to buy their factory made rods. but if u ask me. the guides are fully optimized for that specific blank's loading. so not much of an issue for me!
Quote from: LTM on February 17, 2014, 07:27:24 AM
Bryan,
Forgot to ask, what do you mean by "Entering angle should be close to the exiting angle."?
Leo
I pulled this off the internet.
(http://anglersresource.net/portals/anglersresource/staticload4.gif)
So, from horizontal, the line angle from the reel side should be the same as the angle on the tip size. Not that all guides may not have the same angle, due to the bend in the rod, but you should try to get equal angles entering and exiting the guide.
If you can, I have built a few rods with equal angles on ever guide. It takes a lot of time and a lot more guides, but it distributes the load very well throughout the blank.
Take a look at http://anglersresource.net/StaticLoadTutorial.aspx. This should help explain what I'm talking about.
Thanx guys for responding,
Jeri, Im glad this post got your attention also. BTW Jeri, Ive been meaning to tell you that you have MY hat on in your avatar. ;D Back to topic, decades ago I had a Calstar BT865H made and the guy didnt take any measurements from me, but workded at a shop that had built some rods for me so I thought he was going to get them from the shop. I needed the rod for a long range trip coming up SHORTLY. Anywho, the thread color was off as well as everythig else. The guides were built around the spine correctly but IT DIDNT FIT ME CORRECTLY. I didnt fish the rod on the long range trip and havent fished it every in close to 30 years, still brand new. What a waste.
Bryan, thank you for the excellent explaination and the referral/link to more info. I understand now and will follow-up with the link for more details. Bryan and Jeri help me out with this next issue here. How do I go about communicating to a potential rod builder that I WANT my rod built the OLD FASHION WAY in a manner that doesnt come accross as me being a PITA. i dont want to have to gear up and learn how to wrap rods (no space and too much of a distraction), too many other things to do. And Im not going to pay a premium just for a triple wrapped factory spaced rod and consider it a custom job, Id rather buy off the rack (hand picked of coarse) instead and save some money. Im not the PITA here the builders are being the PITA in reality. This is a real catch-22 for me as you can imagine. You guys with so-called custome rods measure your guide spacing and then compare to the factory rods and see just how "custom" your rod really is. You will probably find out that the only thing custom are your choice of components UNFORTUNATELY. But at least its triple wrapped! ??? Please, help me on how to communicate to the builders without coming across as a pain in the buttocks!!!
Leo
Thunnus69,
I completely agree with you that most custom wrappers take greater lenghts to provide a better product than one that is mass produced. That is why I can look at tons of rods before I even buy one. If you would count my time in $, it would be best if I just get a custom rod made...and I just though about it in this manner...
Bryan
Makes sense Bryan.
Hi Leo,
I think that unless you have some very firm thoughts in your own mind about what you want out of a rod, you will have difficulty in actually find 'that' rod. This very aspect is what I find most difficult at times to get out of my customers, and it is probably the most important factor – what does the client want the rod to do?
With surf fishing in the first instance it is easy – they all want absolute maximum distance, which brings me the problem of the 'client's skills level'. I could put our most advanced blank in their hands and they would go away with a rod that they will never master. My job as such is to assess their skills level, and then offer something to suit.
For a spinning rod, balance is a huge issue, so the actual reel that is being used would be seriously important, while on a boat rod, obviously line class, action and balance are all equally important – and here the customer needs to be able to offer at least an indication of what they are looking for, even a guide to which blanks might be in the right range.
The problem for the rod builder is that there are so many blanks out there, and with the huge numbers coming from China these days, the problem is only getting worse. Then even getting the style of blank right, then the issue of whether it is built of glass, carbon or combinations of both, or in our case with surf rods, different strengths of carbon, or even carbon mixes.
Jut popping into the shop and saying that I want something special is going to get the same response as if you go into your nearest car dealer with the same statement. You actually need to have some firm ideas about what you are looking for. Then perhaps you are looking at the possible option of a 'test drive', might be the same with a car dealer. Then, you might be going down the road towards getting what you are looking for.
A lot of rods that we sell folks are built so that they 'feel right' for the angler, which is achieved by this 'test drive' aspect. We can build two rod which appear exactly the same, but will react differently, simple things like spine orientation, switching the spine from top to bottom will change the attributes of a rod, only slightly, but that 'feel' can be critical to that particular angler. It can change a surf rod from casting and loading really gently to one that loads a little quicker and releases quicker – not something everyone wants – a skills level issue.
Most rod builders, if they are building a lot of rods, will actually have a big long list of ring spacings that they use on different blanks, even if they are all the same length, as obviously some 7' rods will need more rings, while others less, and this might also be a key to your quest. Having decided on a blank, ask how many guides, if the answer is too quick, and sounds standard, then the builder is just using some simple format, but if they have to refer to a list, then you are looking at a guy that needs to check for that particular blank.
In closing, I can't offer any single suggestion as a test as to how to find a good rod builder. We have a guy here in southern Africa, most prolific in promoting his own 'apparent' knowledge of everything regarding fishing rods. We had a client in the shop with a rod that he had built by this 'guru', and it wasn't working right for the client. On closer inspection, the guides were offset from the line of the reel seat by about 10-15 degrees. Obviously this rod had been built by someone that didn't have a passion for what he was doing, just whipped some rings on, and then sold. Trying to find someone with a true passion for rod building is going to be a task – like trying to find a reel mechanic with Alan's passion for perfection in the mechanics of a fishing reel – a truly difficult trait to find in these days of modern consumerism.
Hope this all helps.
On the hat issue – if yours isn't made of Kudu leather and stained with years of sweat and salt, then it's not MINE!!!!!
Cheers from sunny Africa
Jeri
Jeri,
I always enjoy your detailed dialogues. However, my point was not which model I want, Im very clear on that note. Its getting any rod built "CORRECTLY" by measuring from the center of my elbow to the uppper portion of my palm, then the amount of foregrip that I need/want. Finally, the proper placing of the "PROPPER" amount of guides is the other main issue. Most rod builders I find would probably be fine with a phone call, tell them your colors, and they give you a pickup date. They want to build it 'THEIR" cookie-cutter method which I DONT WANT is the problem. Ive got another specific question for you which I'll PM you about later.
Nite all,
Leo
Hi Leo,
Any rod builder worth his 'salt' should be able to build a rod for you with a client that actually knows what they are looking for, and the fact that it would seem that you know what blank you desire, then the hardest piece of information is already answered.
Your recognising that the elbow to wrist crease dimension is critical to your design is equally of great assistance to the rod builder. Getting a builder now to just tape the reel seat in the right place, and discussing grip options and lengths with you would be a client that I dream of. One that actually know what he wants!!!
I can't see the problem of finding a rod builder in your area that could offer to build a rod for you, to that basic design.
As to getting the right number of guides and at a correct spacing, I would look to a builder's reputation. I have a whole list of clients, that should anyone want a referral, I can offer that list. And equally any rod builder worth his 'salt' would have such a list. The point is that most rod builders should have a couple of rods lying around for clients to try different options, so basically I think it comes down to shopping around, and going through the process of finding someone that you feel confident in.
The whole arena of spinning rods is under considerable review at the moment, as there are several 'ringing systems' being advertised as 'the best', whether it is Fuji and the 'K' series concept or the AmTak 'microwave' system. Personally, I favour Fuji, as they have been around for so long, and have a reputation of designing systems that have been thoroughly tested. I just at times wish they would undertake a research program to update some of the dated surf design schemes; but that hasn't stopped me developing themes beyond their original ideas – which is basically back to this issue of 'passion', and perhaps the genetic liability that I have as a former engineer – I can't look at many things without wondering how to make it better.
Hope that helps.
Cheers from sunny Africa
Jeri