currently using the hotmelt stick glue from FUJI and 95% happy with the results for around 7-9 years but I have had few saltwater 60lb rods with the tip softened because of the hot sun of this zone (desert of Baja, Mx), so, in those cases I repaired the tip under warranty on my side but used 5-min epoxy hoping to dont need to repair that tip soon or never.
so, I have few questions here.
1. what are you guys using for gluing the tiptop on 60lb and UP saltwater fishing rods
2. I saw that 3M sells some hotglue sticks for the undustry, maybe the FUJI ones are just those but cut it on smaller size and sold by 5x the price (nothing new here) or maybe this 3M hotglue offer a bit better adhesion than the ones sold for the fishing industry.
3. found this one SUREBONDER professional hotmelt glue sticks which offer a Construction grade bond and high temps, also the package give you lots more for $18 dlls than 5 small sticks of fuji have anyone hear about this product? would it worth the risk?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079N79WRM/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B079N79WRM&pd_rd_w=P64cI&content-id=amzn1.sym.88097cb9-5064-44ef-891b-abfacbc1c44b&pf_rd_p=88097cb9-5064-44ef-891b-abfacbc1c44b&pf_rd_r=9E1F1CT2NYTCXFHW3D1P&pd_rd_wg=i9mxy&pd_rd_r=6a4b0497-9175-41c5-8936-d908c52254d4&s=industrial&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWw&smid=AKV00V1PWEUK1&language=en_US
my "problem" is that I normally buy 2 sticks of fuji hotmelt glue but its not weird to find that I only have a small piece of one stick left, and order just one to make it "expensive" because of the shipping charges and my PO box fee, etc. so Im looking for another option but if its not avail then I will just have to order 3-4 fuji sticks, but pretty sure I will find me in the same position later on ;D
Man i just always use 5 min epoxy for tips, ever since I had one melt off on a summer day. It'll still come off with some heat, but not the kind it'll feel on a sunny day.
Would non-permanent thread-lock work?
The stuff I use is called ferrule cement, used to glue the feathers on an arrow too. Never had a problem with it coming loose. I get it from voodoo
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on November 18, 2022, 02:38:10 AMMan i just always use 5 min epoxy for tips, ever since I had one melt off on a summer day. It'll still come off with some heat, but not the kind it'll feel on a sunny day.
Same issue here with the old tech ferrule cement sticks. It gets wayyy hot in Baja in the summer (as Alex is probably noticed :) ) Some of the rod building boards and archery sites mention the higher temp flavor of Ferr-L-Tite. Maybe this is the product (or equivalent) that Sherman is recommending.
Like Jason, I switched to 5 min epoxy. When I need to replace the tip I hold with a pair of pliers and apply light twisting force while using just a flick of heat with a lighter on the metal tube and pull off the tip before the blank gets hot. Worked every time so far.
I only use those plain old regular glue sticks for wood cabinetry because they are such a weak adhesive. Holds the hardware and slides in place for a "dry" fit before drilling the screw holes. Pops right off if I need to reposition. I would be reluctant to use this stuff as a ferrule cement. It softens at a low temp, not a strong adhesive, and doesn't get very hard when cool.
Quote from: Gfish on November 18, 2022, 03:16:45 AMWould non-permanent thread-lock work?
Not something that I have ever tried.
We usually want something that can fill a larger void and stay in place, but thread-lockers are designed to be runny to get into the gaps between threads. Plus depending on the flavor, they either need torque or high temp to release. Would be toward the end of my list of adhesives to try.
-J
Where I live the summer highs get over 100F.
I've never had a problem with the normal tip top glue that comes with the assorted tip tops
I detest using epoxy on tip tops, the top guide tends to wear more and epoxy is forever.
https://www.hotmelt.com/blogs/blog/high-temp-hot-melt-vs-low-temp-hot-melt
Quote from: Swami805 on November 18, 2022, 03:56:15 AMThe stuff I use is called ferrule cement, used to glue the feathers on an arrow too. Never had a problem with it coming loose. I get it from voodoo
This is what I use also, it's called Ferr-L-Tite. It has a little higher melting point and some have said it's melting point is too high but it has never damaged any of my tips and I do all my builds with it. It can be found in any Archery shop, online and my local fishing tackle store also sells it. Florida gets hot too, and I've never had a tip come lose with this stuff.
https://shop.bohning.com/ferr-l-tite/
I don't see a problem with ferrule/tip-top glue. It gets pretty dang hot in NE and I've never had one soften and come loose. I agree with Lee, I would never use epoxy on a tip-top. I sure don't want that joint to be rigid, it needs to have a little bit of give in my opinion, but then I'm not playing in salt water.
I've seen them spin on me when only melted on. I decided to stop using hot glue when one flew on a cast when the leader knot got stuck.
Probably evidence i did it wrong but it's not a risk worth taking IMO. The only negative to using 5min is I gotta wait a lot longer than 5 min before I feel it's cured enough for the next stage of building the rod.
what a surprise, I never expected this kind of help from the ohana (yep, I've been sarcastic) ::)
thanks guys, seems that I have more options to try out, I will order some of those hotmelt stick for the arrows and will look some of the options what my compadre Lee linked too, to be honest the few saltwaters rods that have been brought to me with the tiptop moved to the side or pointing to the bottom could be a combination of the rod on direct sun on the panga rod holder with on a hot summer heat and a bad fish fighting work of the person, normally on heavy duty saltwater rods I try to put as much hotmelt glue inside of the tip and make few wraps with the thread in an intend to "lock" or extra secure the tip, I think on trolling rods I will use a 5-min epoxy with low adhesion force.
5-minute epoxy is crap and it breaks down over time or with UV exposure. The lighter trick makes it break down right now. Ideal for rod tips.
Quote from: oc1 on November 18, 2022, 06:34:12 PM5-minute epoxy is crap and it breaks down over time or with UV exposure. The lighter trick makes it break down right now. Ideal for rod tips.
^^^^ Bingo! Epoxies are not all the same. Five minute seems to crumble with heat. And you just need to break the bond with the metal sleeve. The blank does not have to get hot. And you can always do an epoxy test run on a blank scrap. Most of us have a broken off tip section or two lying around :-X. Probably a good idea, as epoxy brands may vary. I use mostly Devcon five minute.
The problem with hot glue sticks (including ferrule cements) is that being a thermoplastic, the hardness varies by temperature to a much greater degree than a thermoset like epoxy. I wonder if ferrule cement failure may also be a function of fit. If the fit is too tight, there are probably some areas without any cement.
To be fair, I used a fairly old version of ferrule cement (Gudebrod). The newer stuff may work better, but could also bring new risks. Ferr-L-Tite has a melting point of 350F, so folks doing this at home are probably heating over 400, and the metal sleeve has to be over 350 long enough to position the tiptop. So a lot more heat is being applied longer to both install and remove high temp ferrule cement compared to a short quick blast on removal only that does not heat the blank with five minute epoxy.
I don't think that flexibility of the adhesive is much of a concern, as the glued area is encased in a metal sleeve anyways.
If you are using a spinning rod, the tiptop will stay aligned by virtue of already being under the blank. If you are using lighter line, you will also not be generating as much torque to twist the guide. Car trunks don't count. You have to be actively yanking on a big fish or a snag with conventional gear in hot weather.
There is usually more than one right way to do stuff like this, so I am not trying to disparage what works for other members. But sometimes the right way in one set of circumstances may not be the best way in another.
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on November 18, 2022, 07:56:59 PM....And you can always do an epoxy test run on a blank scrap. Most of us have a broken off tip section or two lying around :-X....
I can do that.
I have more than one piece of blank or freshwater blanks that I can use to test gluing tiptops with 5-min epoxy and try to take them out without damaging the blank, even I can do test on graphite blank and a test on a all glass blank ;)
I have seen some of the 5-min epoxies advertise their strength in PSI, so, it might good idea to get one with the lowest PSI count so, the metal tiptop wont be forever welded to the blank.
when Im installing foam or hypalon grips I choose the epoxy with the highest psi count.
I use hotmelt for reel seats as well and have never had one come loose. Tips do come off but are easy enough to get back in to place.
It seldom get hotter then 95 degrees here.
The ferrule cement I bought from a rod building supplier a few years ago looks and behaves just like a high temp hot glue stick. The old type of brown ferrule cement is a different. I think mine is Weber brand. If a ferule gives way for no apparent reason (not heat) the brown cement will chip off in flakes. Hot glue sticks don't do that.
I'll be honest I just cut them off. I cut as close as humanly possible to the base of the metal with dog claw clippers which are perfect for the task. The rod got a half inch shorter. No big deal. But that's just me.
Well, as Dave suggested, there's more than one way to skin a cat. :D To each his own, I guess.
never wanted/needed to skin a cat
in the unlikely event I ever do, one method will suffice ::)
tip-tops are a different story
all the low-temp hot melt seems to be <200*F release point?
hot sun + black tip-top on black rod + friction heat... too close for comfort
all the high-temp hot melt seems to be >400*F release point?
too close for comfort, as far as blank damage
is boiling water unsafe for blanks?
isn't there a hot-melt w/ release point around 300*F?
...or whatever Goldie Locks temp zone, if 300 is too hot
Quote from: philaroman on November 19, 2022, 10:40:07 PMnever wanted/needed to skin a cat
in the unlikely event I ever do, one method will suffice ::)
tip-tops are a different story
all the low-temp hot melt seems to be <200*F release point?
hot sun + black tip-top on black rod + friction heat... too close for comfort
all the high-temp hot melt seems to be >400*F release point?
too close for comfort, as far as blank damage
is boiling water unsafe for blanks?
isn't there a hot-melt w/ release point around 300*F?
...or whatever Goldie Locks temp zone, if 300 is too hot
The perfect temp resistant hot melt glue would stay rock solid until it reached its melting point. But in the real wold, the stuff gets progressively softer, losing shear strength and adhesion as temperature increases. "Release" is a function of temp plus torque and coverage area. We can't peg it to a specific temperature. Which is probably why the stuff works fine for some of us and has the occasional problem for others.
Choosing a 350F melt product is more likely to give you better adhesion and shear strength than a 250F melt product when the rod is being used in 100F temperatures.
As to what temperature is safe for blank integrity? This is a function of the resin the prepreg that the rod company selected and how long you keep it hot.
The rod companies are not going to shell out extra bucks for high temp (when cured) resin, so I would argue that we are probably in the safe zone if we just heat it for just a couple of seconds, and don't go crazy past the oven temp that is was cured at - which I would guess to be anywhere between 200F and 300F by looking at the prepreg products out there.
And even if you weaken the very tip, it may not be so much of a risk. The blank section that got heated is sleeved by the tip top, plus there is not much blank flex load in the immediate vicinity- the load increases as you get closer to the apex of whatever bend you have in the rod- and the tip top is always going to be at the far end. The very tip area never takes much bending load. Small to medium sized carbon fiber blanks are already surprisingly weak at the tip if you bend them with the apex right up near the tip.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on November 19, 2022, 05:26:10 AMI'll be honest I just cut them off. I cut as close as humanly possible to the base of the metal with dog claw clippers which are perfect for the task. The rod got a half inch shorter. No big deal. But that's just me.
I would be worried about crushing the blank when shearing it. That would be bad. Very easy to do it the "righter" way and just remove the old tiptop. Takes a matter of seconds.
-J
Quote from: Cor on November 19, 2022, 03:45:40 AMI use hotmelt for reel seats as well and have never had one come loose. Tips do come off but are easy enough to get back in to place.
It seldom get hotter then 95 degrees here.
here we have an average of 30-40 days on the 105-120*F, but few hours on direct sun the temp on the metal tip will be much higher than that
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on November 19, 2022, 05:26:10 AMI'll be honest I just cut them off. I cut as close as humanly possible to the base of the metal with dog claw clippers which are perfect for the task. The rod got a half inch shorter. No big deal. But that's just me.
well, not my cup of tea to cup the tip specially on friend's rods and even less on customer rods, although I have to do it many times on old rods but before I cut it I let my friend or customer now about it and tell them its the last resort.
there are some rotary tool pretty cheap on Harbor freight stores or from Fleabay, aliexpress,etc I mean 10-15 dlls the tool and way better than dog claw clippers or you can just get a small dremel rotary tool, there are some economic ones as low as $40 something.
Quote from: philaroman on November 19, 2022, 10:40:07 PMnever wanted/needed to skin a cat
in the unlikely event I ever do, one method will suffice ::)
tip-tops are a different story
Skinned many a cat in my day, civet cats & bob cats, and there's more than one way to do it, but most fur buyers have a preferred method. ;D
Quote from: steelfish on November 20, 2022, 02:40:23 AMQuote from: JasonGotaProblem on November 19, 2022, 05:26:10 AMI'll be honest I just cut them off. I cut as close as humanly possible to the base of the metal with dog claw clippers which are perfect for the task. The rod got a half inch shorter. No big deal. But that's just me.
well, not my cup of tea to cup the tip specially on friend's rods and even less on customer rods, although I have to do it many times on old rods but before I cut it I let my friend or customer now about it and tell them its the last resort.
You make an important point, I build and repair stuff for myself and friends and have never charged anybody for anything. I do that because I enjoy it and if I were to charge I would no longer be able to do experimental stuff and would need to work very neatly with focus on appearances rather then functionality. I would also use epoxy to fix tips and reel seats because it is more durable.
I like the challenge of repairing a broken rod to be a functional tool again. I have done many for friends, but absolutely at their risk. I now have a 90 % success rate, but would never have attempted that if I charged, the risk would be to great and it takes way too much time to do.
Maybe this would be more suitable to everyone. Not too hot, not too cold. I've been meaning to try this as soon as my other stuff runs out. It is specifically for carbon arrows which makes it suitable for rods. At 280 degree melting point, it may be the one!
https://shop.bohning.com/ferr-l-tite-cool-flex/
Super Glue :d