Im curious to how many rods may have been made that were the Fenwick 670 130lb class brown (painted) fibreglass with the brown foam foregrip with Mildrum roller guides and a Varmac reel seat size RS6H with a straight wooden butt. (aka.Jaws rod). Ive seen others that are almost it but not this exact colour or with different butt's or the same in every way but for line class. Any ideas on what it would be worth. 45th anniversary year of the movie got me thinking.
The jaws rod had a rubber coated aluminum butt that sorta looked like wood in the film. The only 670 rods I know of with wood butts were the early ones with cork foregrips, and those had a light blonde wood.
As far as, how many were made we have no way of knowing
The butt was definitely wood and is widely regarded as being wood. I have seen many Fenwicks with the brown wood butt and brown foregrip. What information do you know off that suggest the rod had an alloy butt with rubber coating?
I know it's widely regarded as being wood and whoever started that rumor is wrong. I have also purchased preowned rods with wood butts but they were not original to the rod. I've been collecting those rods for many years and I have every catalog from the early 60s to the late 70s. I own seven Fenwick 670 rods spanning the years 1964 to 1978.
I've studied this movie extensively and have most all of the major props either in replica or original. I obtained two of the original barrels, and a chunk of the Orca from Susan and Lynn Murphy who are known for being involved in the production of the film and purchased a large lot of the props, including the rod, when filming concluded.
Once you see the rubberized butt that I am talking about and you know what to look for, you can tell its the same butt is in the film. Its easily mistaken for wood, but its not wood
Here are some screenshots of the film. Once I get home I will take a picture of one of my rods so you can see what it looks like in person. Like i said, it can easily be mistaken for wood but its not. You can tell has no wood grain whatsoever in it
To begin the conversation we should talk about Fenwick serial numbers. Each rod has a serial number beginning with a letter followed by a five or six digit number. For the sake of this discussion we will focus on the letter since it denotes the approximate year of manufacture. Attached here is the breakdown in Victor R. Johnson's book on the history of Fenwick
The big game rods cataloged up to around 1968 had cork grips and blonde wood butts. Attached here is a page from the 1968 catalog showing the cork grips and a small picture of the butts. Also attached is a picture of my H serial model 670 dating to 1967-68
Around late 1969/early 1970 Fenwick announced the "new unbreakable fiberglass rod butts". Attached here is the announcement as shown in the 1971-73 catalogs, the layout seen in the 1973 catalog, and a picture of my J serial 1969-70 model 670 with fiberglass butt
1974-75 brings us to the "Jaws" rod years. Fenwick announces new "hypalon covered stainless steel handle"
Attached is the layout in the 1975 catalog and a picture of the hypalon covered butt of my M serial 1974-75 model 670. This is what the Jaws rod butt is.
Finally we come to the end of the run for the big brown Fenwicks in 1976-77. The attached page from the 1976 catalog shows the switch to stainless steel handles.
1978 sees the introduction of the new white Fenglass series big game rods and the old brown rods are gone.
Great intel! I'll have to check out my 640 roller rod when i get home to determine the year.....
This is some great stuff! I have a 30 and 50 in the Hypalon covered. I will go out and check year tomorrow.
Thanks for the look, you've amassed an incredible collection
I was going to say the same, that is a pretty amazing collection. Are there any photos of your entire collection? I have seen a lot of your stuff in different posts, your Ocean City reels, your Penn boxes and etc.
I don't want to say too much in this post but I hope things are getting a little easier for you and your family!!!
The story of the rod having a wooden butt end probably emanates from the Jaws ride in Universal Orlando having the props on display of which was the actual rod. It didn't look anything like in the movie as it was returned to the owner of the charter Gladius X who lent the film crew the rod and reel for filming. After filming it returned to Gladius X and was continued to be used on the boat and why it looks so poorly. (not sure how others claim to have purchased it after filming?) This is confirmed when the actual rod was rebirthed looking nothing like in the film stating the butt had been sanded back and refinished (wood) and was sold with the Jaws Art director and the Gladius X owner both providing letters of Authenticity as to the rods provenance. That rod had a wood butt.
If you look at the pictures you have submitted from the movie itself and even back up a couple of frames in the movie at that scene it shows the rod butt has with extensive damage of which looks to be consistent to either wood or fibreglass but absolutely not stainless steel as the 74-75 Fenwick had.
You cannot see wood grain on the rod butt as its painted in that ugly mission brown they loved back in the day.
The stainless steel butt rod was made 74-75 as you confirmed, but jaws was being made in 1974. Its unlikely a rod model made in 74 has entered the market purchased by a charter boat and used to achieve the level of damage and patina as is depicted in the movie all before being lent to a filming crew. More likely an earlier model was used.
The hypalon coated stainless steel butt looks Tan and nothing like that dirty mission brown colour.
Your information on the Fenwick rods is spot on but I am unconvinced the Jaws rod butt was covered stainless steel, there are just too many inconsistencies, the rod in the movie doesn't look wood grained as its painted and faded, it is damaged consistent to wood as seen in the movie frames with significant patina as it was a working rod lent out not a movie prop.
So how would a brown wood butt rod come out? Potentially like many manufacturers back then you would use up all the parts you had of the last model before starting the next, Mitchell reel company would be a good example of this. Perhaps pre the brown fibreglass 69-70 era they used up the wooden butts and went with the new brown colour scheme and when all used up phased in the fibreglass handles with the same colour scheme. It would seem more likely a 69-70era rod would be in the market purchased and had use consistent to the level of damage and patina of the movie rod.
The rod on display at Universal was not a Fenwick at all. It was a Tycoon Tackle Bimini King. I said so in one of the threads on the RPF forum, which i see is where you are getting some information.
Screenshot of the alleged rod below. Here is a link to the thread. You can see my comment on page two from three years ago.
https://www.therpf.com/forums/threads/quints-fishing-rod-in-jaws.233279/ (https://www.therpf.com/forums/threads/quints-fishing-rod-in-jaws.233279/)
I believe the evidence that I have presented in this thread, and the complete dialogue from the linked RPF thread above, should be plenty enough to convince most people that the rod, in its filming configuration, did not have a wood butt.
You seem to be unconvinced and that is OK with me.
Im aware the Universal rod is not the jaws rod but point to that as a likely point to why people believe the rod to have a wooden butt. I dont weigh chat threads or those chat threads that you linked as showing any credible information to substantiate the claims both for the fibreglass butt and stainless steel butt and on balance without providing source for the information I can only consider that idle internet chat banter and as stated a potential reason why people believe the butt was wood.
The information in the Fenwick catalogue, the movie reel still frames and the internet chat thread or evidence that you say, says more to refute the rod as having a covered stainless steel butt then it does to convince anyone.
Based on the Fenwick catalogue the covered steel butt was manufactured 1974-75. The movie was being filmed in 1974 and released to cinema in 1975. It would be highly unlikely a 1974 model rod would be manufactured distributed to market purchased by a charter captain and used to develop the level of patina and damage as is depicted in the actual movie footage. It would be more likely the rod is as early as a J series 1969 - 1970 given ample time for the rod to be into the market and used on a boat and develop the amount of sun bleaching, patina and damage typical to the rod in the movie.
Based on the movie reel screenshots you have provided and and by frame review it is clearly shown the rod to have significant damage to the butt, probably damaged so bad its unusable as a working rod. When you review those frames it is damaged in a way to suggest it is wood or fibreglass.
Since the Fenwick catalogue shows it would not be wood then it must be fibreglass, the fibreglass butt is also period correct. The damage can be seen as jagged and fibre like in nature. A stainless steel butt does not damage in this way. It could be said the covered stainless steel butt has the outer layer damaged as its too thick for the chair holder however if that were the case the underlying stainless steel would be showing. The rod butt is fibreglass.
Both the Fenwick catalogue and the actual movie are both undisputed sources of information and is ample evidence for the rod butt to be shown as fibreglass and refutes the notion of it being stainless steel. The Jaws rod therefore in its original movie form was A Fenwick 670 130lb class brown rod with a fibreglass butt and mildrum guides as early as J series.
As to how the rod ended up with a wood butt prior to its refurbishment after the movie I couldn't say and I would propose the rod was borrowed from a working boat the Gladius X and since it was a working boat they lent them a busted rod for filming (what charter would lend game gear when they use it if they have a busted one). After filming the rod was returned and now it has the notoriety of being in a movie someone decides they want to use it but need to repair the butt. a wooden butt is used for that repair. Either its a replacement from an earlier rod or a lathe copy of the fibreglass butt. The rod goes back onto the boat with a wooden butt. The rod is then recovered months later with a wooden butt and everyone believes the rod had a wooden butt. After refurbished the rod resembles nothing like the movie rod and why it wasn't restored to original is anyone's guess.
Like you im Ok if you remain unconvinced but in light of hard undisputed fact its hard to argue against the movie rod butt being fibreglass.
Interesting discussion gentlemen. Much enjoyed this. Bill
Never knew the story about the Gladius X loaning the rod for the movie... very cool.
Dom
Love the back story behind the jaws reel....
.....but it seems there are more than a few collectors all claiming to own the jaws rod & reel. The only real one is in the movie, and from what I've read here, that one in the movie no longer exists as it appeared in the movie, which would open Pandora's box and allow ownership claims that cannot be substantiated
So remember in my previous reply about Lynn and Susan Murphy owning the rod and purchasing a bunch of props including the rod back from universal after the movie wrapped? I was slightly mistaken. Lynn Murphy was the captain of the Gladius X, so the claim that the rod was theirs before and after the film must be pretty credible.
A few screenshots of some comments from the RPF thread, debating the wood butt and a quote from Susan Murphy regarding rod ownership.
Note: I did not post either of these. I go by 1BadF350 on that board just as I do here.
A production still of Quint with the rod. I still firmly believe this is the brown hypalon covered butt. The hypalon is dark brown identical to the foregrip. Same as my rod
Varmac RS6H reel seats are easily interchangeable between rods fitted with them so however the rod may have ended up later on, was a matter of someone switching butts in 30 seconds.
The actual rod coming from the Gadius X for filming and returning to the Gladius X after filming was never a contention. The fact that Lynn Murphey was the gladius X captain and not some random clears up the idea the rod was sold off to a prop collector. It is well documented they had salvage rights to all the crap used to operate the mechanical shark and the sinking orca 2 prop of which some of it they sold off.
I see the reference to some random RPF thread on the internet which i cant consider any more then random opinions on an internet thread. In those same threads other UK Chris says
"The Jaws rod is a Fenwick Woodstream 130lb class. It was brown (painted) fibreglass and had a brown foam foregrip with Mildrum roller guides and a Varmac reel seat size RS6H. The rod used in Jaws was one of the earlier models and had a wooden butt. I have, after much searching, just bought an almost identical model; the only difference is that mine has the later stainless steel butt with everything else exactly the same (wooden butts had a habit of snapping on a savage strike when trolling so Fenwick developed a stainless steel butt which was replaced with the aluminium Aftco butt when Fenwick redesigned the rod to use white fibreglass and Aftco roller guides)"
The internet is full of claims about people owing and selling the JAWs rod, its like the end of a Spartacus movie saying "I am Spartacus" only its I am selling the Jaws rod blah blah
Internet banter is not a credible source of information unless it gives substantiated claims, lets face it the same RPF thread you point to are saying opposite things.
Im not going to repeat myself from earlier posts so i will just sum it up. The Fenwick catalogue is credible and reliable and shows he covered stainless steel butt was manufactured 1974-75. The movie was filming in 1974. It is unbelievable that a 1974 manufactured covered stainless steel rod was distributed to tackle shops purchased and found its was onto a charter boat where it was used long enough to develop the damage and patina of the movie rod and be used in the movie the same year. More likely a 1969-70 model with fibreglass butt. The movie rod was well worn out no where near new.
Here's my 1968/1969 640 50# double roller
The screenshots from the movie clearly show the movie rod was extensively damaged and this damage clearly shows the rod butt could not be stainless steel. Its damaged fibreglass since wood was not an option as shown by the Fenick catalogue.
Hi chaps,
Regarding this fascinating discussion, I can only add that when I posted elsewhere about the original Jaws rod having a wooden butt I was not aware that Fenwick ever did a fibreglass butt for the brown 130lb rod. I only knew of the stainless steel (as mine has) or brown wooden butts. Therefore, I cannot be certain, as I once thought, that the rod butt in the film was wood. I might still believe it, but I cannot substantiate my belief.
What does surprise me though is how much lighter the brown 130lb rod tip is compared to the white glass model that succeeded it (and I apologise for raising this as it is not directly relevant to the discussion).
Chris
Menemsha is six miles across Vineyard Sound from Cuttyhunk, and during the summer months I used to sell my lobsters there as the price x-vessel was always twenty or twenty five percent higher than the mainland markets were offering. That was the mid 70's and maybe a quarter mile up Menemsha Creek from the basin the Orca was a derelict pulled up on the dunes rotting away and forgotten except as a curiosity. The Gladius X used to fish the First International Swordfish Tournament out of Cuttyhunk in the 60's, I recall thinking the name as a takeoff on the broadbill's scientific name, Xiphias Gladius, was pretty cool. It was a squared away rig. By the early 70's the Swords were all gone from the continental shelf southward out to the canyons decimated by the stick boats and spotter planes.
Quote from: Cuttyhunker on November 10, 2020, 08:12:37 PM
That was the mid 70's and maybe a quarter mile up Menemsha Creek from the basin the Orca was a derelict pulled up on the dunes rotting away and forgotten except as a curiosity.
Mid-1970's. Darn, the movie hadn't even run it's course yet. How soon they forget.
-s
Great thead yall. Ive been fishing and recently started collecting old browns since the 70's myself. Love all this history, thanks.
I'm gonna give this horse one last kick. Thanks 1badf350 for citing an old post of mine. I think I can offer some facts to clear up any question that the rod used in Jaws had a hypalon-covered steel butt. The 670 was part of the Deluxe line. The fiberglass butt was a part of the Offshore series, and was model 673.
With different (cheaper) guides, and 3 lines circling the butt, it is difficult to see how the rods could be confused. Also, Offshore series rods did not have the 670's Varmac R*SH heavy-duty seat, instead using the less-costly R*S. This is visible in the catalog picture above in the thread. Note that the fiberglass butt for the Deluxe series has at the very bottom, a ball-shaped slotted end. The butt in the movie does not have this.
The Fenwick: Fenwick's History and Rods, Including the Development of the First Graphite Rod explains:
"1971: Fenwick added a fourth series of big game rods called its Offshore series. The Offshore series had the same blank as the Deluxe series, plus a new unbreakable fiberglass butt design. The main difference between the Offshore series and the "high-end" Deluxe series was that the Deluxe series had more expensive roller guides."
I think pics are maxed out in this thread, see the link below for more details in an excerpt from the book.
https://imgur.com/a/j0zr5ul