This reel was another one of those ones I posted on the "just as you found it" thread...but like so many times before...I just couldn't leave it as I found it. I had an experiment in mind, I wanted to try catfishing a plastic spool. I've read all the warnings, over and over, about how fragile they are. I've also noted that every cracked plastic spool I've seen here was a result of spooling mono too tight. I think most of the plastic spool's bad rep is just a result of fishermen not knowing how to properly handle them. At any rate, I'm going to fish one, and if it busts I'm out 10 bucks, pfft! :D
This first pic shows the reel as I found it, a cool retro look. The stock 99 with it's 6-screw stand is a solid reel. Add that larger #24-66 handle and the Newell bars and you have an early hot rod, which is more than likely what this reel was.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1783/42856518332_408b230f62_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/28i5RNu)
Since I'd be fishin' this thing, I wanted to change the handle. Hmm...first stumbling block. The gear sleeve was hit. The photo below shows a NOS sleeve beside the trashed one.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1762/41745380060_c20cc06138_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26ATZ75)
The new gear sleeve's fit was a little loose on the bridge, so I added a shim under it.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1761/43553540111_c7643e40e6_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29mFh6n)
We touched on replacement stars in another thread recently, so I figured I'd take a few pics of the process since I'd be doing it here. This pic shows the original star(#10-60) on top of the replacement star(#10-66). Since the replacement is thicker, I had to shave a bit off the spacer sleeve, which is pictured beside a stock spacer.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1828/41745380720_c4a9e66291_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26ATZis)
That's about all we need to do under the hood on this reel. The stock gearing and drags should be more than enough to bust a plastic spool...right? By the way, that brass main is fantastically smooth.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/839/28665859047_1610dabccd_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/KF72c6)
This handle and star are my personal favorites of the stock Penn parts. With the convertible handle you always have half of it sticking out and blocking the star. Even the stock counterbalanced handles seem to get in the way at times too. This handle allows easy access to the star. Oh...and it looks pretty good too...;D
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1824/41745379490_0aea05ed1e_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26ATYWf)
Now...the key to not imploding this spool before it even gets wet...I'm putting some cheap braid on for backing to absorb the mono's squeeze.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/856/43553539431_74a422b547_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29mFgTD)
All spooled up with 30lb. Trilene Big Game, I took it out back for a few ceremonious casts. Dang! It casts fantastic! Plastic spools are light like aluminum spools...less inertia equals better control. I'll update results later. 8)
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1827/41745378690_4216c4bd5a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26ATYGs)
Kick it up a few notches Bro! NICE ;) ;D
Joe
Super nice. I always zoom in and see how clean your reels are :D
Good job, it should cast MUCH better with the plastic spool.
Mr. Moe. I'm thinking maybe you will be 👌 and good with the plastic spool especially for casting if you stay under 30 pounds Line.🎣. Light fish, lite line, match the hatch.😏
Just got back from my brother's place...we braved the elements for a few days and caught some nice medium size catfish. This was the maiden voyage for several new combos, my 99 included. It performed great, here's a video of a catch. 8)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8dEJeshsiU
Nice, I love your videos, short and sweet. :)
Very nice MO :)
And that is how it's done. Show us one of them bigguns caught on that reel and I think you'll have us convinced.
good work there Mo!
That's some good food Mo!
Git-R-Done! ;D
Nice story Mo, great photos, thanks for posting, cheers Don.
Hey Mo...coincidentally I tried a plastic spool in my Long Beach 60 over the weekend. I put a maybe 75 yards of braid on first to act as a cushion for the mono on top. I have been using this reel with a chrome spool up until this point and had my fair share of tangles. The plastic gave a sense of control for sure. I could be wrong, but I think I can cast farther with the metal. And I think if I get used to plastic and try to go back, it will be a messy experience. One thing though is that the plastic spool is not going to corrode, of course, so clean up for me is less involved.
Quote from: grekim on September 26, 2018, 10:41:52 AM
I have been using this reel with a chrome spool up until this point and had my fair share of tangles. The plastic gave a sense of control for sure. I could be wrong, but I think I can cast farther with the metal.
Yes grekim, the chrome spool will get more distance
if you have the skill to control it. My fishing doesn't require that kind of distance, so there is no need to have that massive bird's nest looming over me. You may want to try an aluminum spool on your reel. Aluminum will give great distance, control, and strength. 8)
Nice thread. Mo! I like proportions of the 99 Silver Beach and have converted two Jigmasters to that width. Must be a "golden mean" thing...
How can a chrome spool get more casting distance? Like a freight train barreling down the tracks ;D
Quote from: Decker on September 26, 2018, 01:22:29 PM
How can a chrome spool get more casting distance? Like a freight train barreling down the tracks ;D
Good analogy Joe. Never in my hands, but a skilled caster could take advantage of that heavy spool's inertia and really let 'er fly.
Quote from: mo65 on September 26, 2018, 02:13:50 PM
Quote from: Decker on September 26, 2018, 01:22:29 PM
How can a chrome spool get more casting distance? Like a freight train barreling down the tracks ;D
Good analogy Joe. Never in my hands, but a skilled caster could take advantage of that heavy spool's inertia and really let 'er fly.
A skilled caster or someone who just doesn't know better ;D As a kid I used to cast the chrome-spooled Penns -- a 9 levelwind and some heavier ones I don't recall. I liked to cast with the bait clicker on to slow it down a bit ;D Ah, the good old days ::)
I started all my kids with chrome spools and the bushings good and tight. I could only cast the things 40 yards or so, but it helped them work on fundamentals. They're all getting better and better.
Ron
Quote from: Decker on September 26, 2018, 01:22:29 PM
Nice thread. Mo! I like proportions of the 99 Silver Beach and have converted two Jigmasters to that width. Must be a "golden mean" thing...
How can a chrome spool get more casting distance? Like a freight train barreling down the tracks ;D
With the plastic, I felt like the spool would sometimes stop spinning a good distance before the lure hit the water. With the chrome the momentum keeps going until I stop it when it hits the water. Maybe with an optimized bearing tension it would not matter and I could get the same distance.
Quote from: Ron Jones on September 26, 2018, 05:32:46 PM
I started all my kids with chrome spools and the bushings good and tight. I could only cast the things 40 yards or so, but it helped them work on fundamentals. They're all getting better and better.
Ron
Interesting to hear your experience, Ron. You're a brave man ;).
Quote from: grekim on September 26, 2018, 05:38:32 PM
With the plastic, I felt like the spool would sometimes stop spinning a good distance before the lure hit the water. With the chrome the momentum keeps going until I stop it when it hits the water. Maybe with an optimized bearing tension it would not matter and I could get the same distance.
I really did know anyone did that deliberately. Guess you need to hit the brakes pretty hard as soon as the bait hits the water.
If the spool stops early, ou didn't swing hard enough!
Honestly, that is the deal, these light spools spin fast and will keep spinning with enough power and lubrication. That adds up to long distances, especially with light baits.
Ron
Guys I could be wrong its been a while since I've tossed out a bait with Penn or any reel with a plastic spool. But I believe the plastic spool thrown with a bait that slices through the wind will cast further that the heavier ones. Again I may be wrong this is based on memory & was never measured... Jeff
Sorry Mo, I really did not want to hijack your thread. Let me just say that some of it has to do with your casting style. Momentum is mass times velocity, so slow speed with big mass can have the same momentum as fast speed with small mass. So yes, if I cast with more speed I should be able to achieve the same momentum with the plastic reel. I didn't change my style, so that's why I think it didn't go as far.
That's one nightly nice reel. Plastic spools are great and easy to cast. They were designed for linen lines and you made it work for mono. I should have kept some of them plastic spools.
Quote from: grekim on September 27, 2018, 12:14:56 AM
Sorry Mo, I really did not want to hijack your thread. Let me just say that some of it has to do with your casting style. Momentum is mass times velocity, so slow speed with big mass can have the same momentum as fast speed with small mass. So yes, if I cast with more speed I should be able to achieve the same momentum with the plastic reel. I didn't change my style, so that's why I think it didn't go as far.
The swinging rod creates a force to propel the weight. The lighter spool requires less force to get it spinning so it accelerates quickly and the initial start-up speed is higher. A heavy spool requires more force to get it spinning so it accelerates more slowly and the start-up speed is lower.
The maximum speed of the spool (the so-called start-up speed, be it fast or slow) peaks quickly and the spool then begins to decelerate. Likewise, the casting weight being flung through the air accelerates very quickly and then begins to decelerate.
So, when the start-up speed of the spool is higher, the initial speed of the casting weight flying through the air is also higher. The thumb, or spool tension, or magnetic brakes or centrifugal brakes are used to slow the spool so it does not peel off line faster than the weight can pull the line through the guides. If the spool is peeling off line faster than the casting weight can carry it away, there is an over-run and the beginnings of a backlash. But, if too much braking is applied to the spool it decelerates the casting weight unnecessarily and casting distance is lost.
A casting weight with a higher initial speed can pull line through the guides faster so less braking of the spool is required. A casting weight with a higher initial speed and without unnecessary spool braking will travel farther.
-steve
Agree Steve. Casting distance = speed of spool, line & object being cast. Gravity is a constant always pushin down at the same rate(32ft/second squared) on the object bein cast, so the faster somethin you cast moves, the further it travels before it hits the water. Then there's all that other stuff like casting angle, wind resistance, mass a the object, etc., etc.
It really is a complex question and I like Steve's answer. It is a two part problem, at the very least (1) achieving the initial spool speed and (2) the frictional forces that slow it down.
When I cast, whether right or wrong, I believe I am applying the most thumb pressure just after the lure starts its trajectory. When it is near the end of the trajectory I am usually barely applying pressure. Again, this a LB 60 or Surmaster say, so no brakes. So, I want that spool spinning at a moderate speed throughout the entire trip. If it's too fast it blows up.
As Gfish said, an object with faster initial velocity will of course go farther (given the same angle and neglecting air resistance). A high powered rifle bullet has the same time of flight as a handgun, both falling at the same rate, but the rifle travels farther laterally in that time. What makes the reel problem more complex is the frictional forces can be varied after the lure launches.
There is some maximum spool speed that you can achieve before you get a blow up...another complex problem. Let's say you get that great initial speed with the plastic, but you have to squash it because you will start to get a blow up. So, now consider the metal and and plastic spool both with the same maximum rotational speed above which you would backlash on either, and tell me which has more momenum and potential to go farther.,,,
Wow...you guys have practically written a book on casting data here...but my original concern was the plastic spool's strength. It seems like any time a Penn plastic spool is mentioned, usually the comments are more like "toss that thing in the trash" or "those are worthless". I almost sense a little plastic love! HA!! I was hoping to hook a fish big enough to really strain that spool. I saw an add on the facebooks where a guy was pulling his truck with his catfish combo...maybe I can try that...:D
Quote from: mo65 on September 27, 2018, 12:57:45 PM
Wow...you guys have practically written a book on casting data here...but my original concern was the plastic spool's strength. It seems like any time a Penn plastic spool is mentioned, usually the comments are more like "toss that thing in the trash" or "those are worthless". I almost sense a little plastic love! HA!! I was hoping to hook a fish big enough to really strain that spool. I saw an add on the facebooks where a guy was pulling his truck with his catfish combo...maybe I can try that...:D
;D ;D ;D............................Joe
The only way to settle this... a casting contest ;D ;D ;D ...And bird-nesting exhibition :P
The issue that has only been briefly mentioned is bait weight. The more mass of the bait, the heavier the spool can be and still get going until that mass gets large enough that you aren't strong enough to throw it as far or load the rod properly.
A pinhead anchovie needs the lightest spool, the fastest bearings and slickest line and guides if there is any hope of casting it a reasonable distance, honestly your in spinner territory.
A 1/2 pound mackerel can be flung good ways with that rig BUT the spool is going to need enough force from your thumb that the braid will cut you to the bone. This is why many people feel they need hundreds of rods and reels. They want to match the reel to the rod to the bait for every situation, just like a golfer has a bag full of clubs and several different balls.
In reality, you can get away with far fewer rigs than that IF you learn how to use your thumb.
Ron
Repeat.... The most important factor is the initial speed of the casting weight. You get a higher initial speed of the casting weight when the spool can start up faster.
-steve
There are so many variables in distance casting. The diameter of the line, the width of the spool, the weight of the spool, the bearings or bushings on the spool, the type of oil in those bearings, the rod used.
When I got my first distance reel, an ABU 6500c3 mag elite in London in the year 2000 (first model) I read about how it even made a difference how you spooled the line on the reel.
I also learned how "birds nests" mainly happened in the start of the cast, and that is when I applied the magnets. Soon after the start of the cast, the mag slider was bought back to zero. An adjustable mag brake helps a lot.
In time with practice, I could cast that thing in the dark.
The most important thing, I found was consistency. By that I mean same weight of bait or lure as possible., and always with 12 pound monofilament.
cheers
Greg
??? :-\ :D
Great info here, if taken with a glass of whiskey 8)
How do birds nests happen at the start of the cast?
Quote from: Decker on September 27, 2018, 09:20:21 PM
Great info here, if taken with a glass of whiskey 8)
How do birds nests happen at the start of the cast?
Great question Joe. The beginning of the cast is how my bird's nests always start...I know this because I've watched them happen! I guess the initial thrust just really spins the spool too hard. This is what magnets try to overcome, as they present the most force at the highest RPM. No help there for my plaster spool.(my uncle calls plastic "plaster", God love him!) I'll have to admit, at the onset of the cast, I need a heavy thumb on the plastic spool, but as it begins to fly I release pressure and hardly thumb it at all toward the end. Listen to me...I've joined the distance discussion. 8)
Quote from: Decker on September 27, 2018, 09:20:21 PM
Great info here, if taken with a glass of whiskey 8)
How do birds nests happen at the start of the cast?
My guess'ed be spool speed too fast for weight(casted object) speed.
Other factors might be; not enough thumb pressure, too much friction from stiff line, rod not doin a good job a generating line/weight speed on the fore-cast after loading on the back-cast(I call it "snap-back ability").
This type a stuff is fun.
Theories aside, Mo's talkin bout he gets more distance witha chrome/brass spool, but it's difficult to control, in an earlier post on this thread, albeit he was referencing a LB 60.
Oh boy! Let's add spool configuration(height/width ratio) into the mix...
When I was fresh water fishing with my son. I owned nothing but conventional reels, Lews, and Abu, hardily had a birds nest. I have to say we were fishing with a 14' aluminum boat and I did no have to cast far. I love the adjustable casting reels for that reason. But Ive found that the heaver plugs and bate rigs that are used in salt water fishing are a bit harder to cast longer distances because of the velocity the weight has. I tape my thumb to prevent spool burn, Thumbing is most important to control the over spin that can accrue with the added weight.
Joe
I usually cast hard enough to let any initial overruns work themselves out before the cast is done, not always...several people here have seem one of my reels turn into Japanese noodles!
I do often have issues at the end of the cast, there is a timing piece involving stopping the reel just as it contacts the water. If the spool is still spinning to fast and it tears your thumb up you have a tendency to release pressure right as the bait hits the water, then you get out your pick and pray to got your bait doesn't get picked up while your sorting out your nightmare! (got that t-shirt, it sucks.)
Ron
Quote from: mo65 on September 27, 2018, 09:12:54 PM
??? :-\ :D
Sorry Mo. I got a bit carried away there. When I think of the complexities of casting a conventional reel, it reminds me of benchrest target shooting.
Once you have your rifle sighted in and your most accurate load worked out, the only thing you need to concentrate on is your breathing.
O K, I will shut up now.
Greg
I just can't leave this thread alone. Thinking about the start of the cast.... There are definitely different types of casts. My main reference point here is full-force 8&bait heaver surf casting. Don't much remember the bad casts, only dealing with the aftermath. The good ones are smooth, with plenty of tension on the 50lb Shock leader as the rod loads up, soon followed by a thumb release perfectly synchronized with the end of the rod rotation and extension from the shoulders. Ive gotten away from thumbing the line and instead ride the spool flange. No magnets on my reel and I havent had the guts to let go of the spool completely.
I've read the phrase 8&bait several times lately, what on Earth does that mean?
Ron
Quote from: Ron Jones on September 28, 2018, 03:30:17 AM
I've read the phrase 8&bait several times lately, what on Earth does that mean?
Ron
8 oz of lead sinker.
Quote from: Decker on September 28, 2018, 03:01:23 AM
I just can't leave this thread alone. Thinking about the start of the cast.... There are definitely different types of casts. My main reference point here is full-force 8&bait heaver surf casting. Don't much remember the bad casts, only dealing with the aftermath. The good ones are smooth, with plenty of tension on the 50lb Shock leader as the rod loads up, soon followed by a thumb release perfectly synchronized with the end of the rod rotation and extension from the shoulders. Ive gotten away from thumbing the line and instead ride the spool flange. No magnets on my reel and I havent had the guts to let go of the spool completely.
Everything I have read and tried indicates that smooth acceleration though the cast is the way to go. But, once you are at the end of your cast and start to release the thumb a bit, the lure is moving at a certain velocity whether or not you got there smoothly or quickly. So, the smoothness must be more tied into getting the rod to load and to the transfer of that energy. In other words, if you have a quick jerky cast you probably won't load the rod properly is my guess.
Quote from: grekim on September 28, 2018, 10:13:30 AM
Quote from: Ron Jones on September 28, 2018, 03:30:17 AM
I've read the phrase 8&bait several times lately, what on Earth does that mean?
Ron
8 oz of lead sinker.
Yes, it means an 8 oz sinker typically on a fish finder rig, with a large chunk of bait. The "8" is nominal, could be less or a little more, whatever is needed to hold bottom in the surf.
I wonder how Mo rigs for catfish.
Quote from: grekim on September 28, 2018, 10:28:40 AM
Quote from: Decker on September 28, 2018, 03:01:23 AM
I just can't leave this thread alone. Thinking about the start of the cast.... There are definitely different types of casts. My main reference point here is full-force 8&bait heaver surf casting. Don't much remember the bad casts, only dealing with the aftermath. The good ones are smooth, with plenty of tension on the 50lb Shock leader as the rod loads up, soon followed by a thumb release perfectly synchronized with the end of the rod rotation and extension from the shoulders. Ive gotten away from thumbing the line and instead ride the spool flange. No magnets on my reel and I havent had the guts to let go of the spool completely.
Everything I have read and tried indicates that smooth acceleration though the cast is the way to go. But, once you are at the end of your cast and start to release the thumb a bit, the lure is moving at a certain velocity whether or not you got there smoothly or quickly. So, the smoothness must be more tied into getting the rod to load and to the transfer of that energy. In other words, if you have a quick jerky cast you probably won't load the rod properly is my guess.
True. Jerky cast leads to birdsnest. Smooth, controlled cast transfers energy to rig. The weight of the rig against the rod is important in getting the rod to load right. The rebound of the rod is responsible for most of the acceleration.
Quote from: basto on September 28, 2018, 12:57:34 AM
Sorry Mo. I got a bit carried away there. When I think of the complexities of casting a conventional reel, it reminds me of benchrest target shooting.
Once you have your rifle sighted in and your most accurate load worked out, the only thing you need to concentrate on is your breathing.
O K, I will shut up now.
Greg
Hee hee...sorry Greg...I wasn't singling you out. I was just hoping to learn more about the strengths and weaknesses of the plastic spools, but we're continuing to delve into casting. That's not
all bad though, at least I'm learning about
something! ;)
Quote from: Decker on September 28, 2018, 11:47:11 AM
I wonder how Mo rigs for catfish.
Typical catfish rigging in my neck of the woods is very similar to your saltwater bottom fishing rigs Joe. We also use the hi-low rigs you see on the piers. The main difference is the sinker. We use a flat sinker that will vary in weight with the rivers current. In light current we'll use weights as small as 1-3 ounces. In heavy current we'll go as high as 6-8 ounces, but most generally we use 3-5 ounces. Hooks vary too...from as small as 3/0 up to 10/0...but most times 5/0-8/0. Here's a typical catfish rig, a 5oz. flat sinker, two beads(for luck!), heavy swivel, and a 7/0 Gama Octopus. 8)
I've caught 20 pound flathead on #4 hooks, I'd love to see what you can bring up on a #7/0!
Ron
Quote from: Ron Jones on September 28, 2018, 04:47:07 PM
I've caught 20 pound flathead on #4 hooks, I'd love to see what you can bring up on a #7/0!
Ron
Keep in mind while circle hooks can work for Flathead I dont use them when fishing for bigger ones. A flatheads mouth is much different than a blues or channels mouth. Flatheads mouth lacks the well defined corner thats needed for circle hooks to set right with a high dependable success rate... Jeff
Cool thread.
So, I've learned that plastic spools relative to chrome/brass or stainless, with no other cast controls than a trained thumb, have faster start-up, are easier to control and probably better distance casters, but can break or crack due to stretching effect of lines like mono, and don't corrode. Right?
Anyone ever see a tweaked plastic spool, probably due to heat or UV damage. Kinda like old bakelite swells sometomes making rings not fit?
I've seen several cracked plastic spools, but never a deformed one.
Ron
Ron, I think they can warp before they crack. The first sign that it's screwed up is the spool rubbing on the frame, and then it goes pop and everything locks up. It's like slow motion damage. Guys used to say that you should remove the line as soon as possible after catching a large fish and, supposedly, if it is just starting to rub it can return to normal shape when the line is removed.
Some of the Penn plastic spools had fin-like things on the tail plate flange. Surfmasters for sure and I think on another model; but it escapes me right now. Anyway, the fins built up air pressure to slow the spool. The amount of air pressure increases with the spool speed so it is a proportional braking like you get with centrifugal or magnetic brakes (as opposed to a spool tension knob that applies braking even at slow spool speeds). People with good thumb control would take a pair of pliers and bust out the fins.
-steve
That makes so much sense! Always wondered why those fins were there. I'm not gonna bust any of mine off, but I'm wondering if a modern synthetic couldn't be made to be as strong and lighter than aluminum.
Ron
I think the squidders all had fins on the spools. Don't know about any other models. I wonder how much difference it really made?
Quote from: Ron Jones on September 30, 2018, 04:35:22 PM
....but I'm wondering if a modern synthetic couldn't be made to be as strong and lighter than aluminum.
Ron
Yes, lighter & stronger but at this time cost restrictive. We are not far removed from , I think, from the mass production of newer materials that are lighter, stronger & come from a molding process with high precision with little to no machine work needed.
But as it was & still is with some regarding the acceptance of the "Plastic" Glock so it could be with reels that break new ground with new materials... Jeff
Quote from: Swami805 on September 30, 2018, 04:45:08 PM
I think the squidders all had fins on the spools. Don't know about any other models. I wonder how much difference it really made?
I know that the fins on lawn mowers work on the same principle to regulate the throttle and they are effective.
Ron
Chief, better recheck your mower. The fins on the flywheel remove the heat radiating off the engine & the governer regulates the engine from overspeeding. ::)
My mower has a spring loaded baffle that is pushed by the airflow of the cooling fins, that baffle is connected to the throttle. As RPM increases, the baffle is pushed away from the fins by air pressure and that reduces the throttle position. As I understand it, that was the cheapest way to control RPM and incorporate mandatory safety mechanisms.
Ron