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I'm not really understanding how laying a rod flat, pointing the tip at the fish is the most powerful position for a rod while fighting a fish.
Am I missing something or not understanding whats being said here....Jeff
The absolute peak power position is a rod pointed straight at the fish, which virtually takes the rod out of the equation and allows the angler to simply "pull" the fish in. This position is almost never used, though flycasters fighting giant Tarpon get very close to this position because it exerts so much power on the fish. Obviously, few mistakes can be made when the rod's shock absorbing characteristics are removed from the equation, the important thing to remember is that a low rod pointed at a fish is a very powerful position.
In this position, guide placement is actually not very critical due to the straight nature of the pull. Once you understand this principal, you can also begin to see that it is possible for the angler to CHOOSE the section of rod he wants to apply in a fight. How? By noting how much of the tip section is straight. The straight section performs no work and bears no pressure so, in effect the rod becomes shorter and the power used moves down and into the stronger mid-section of the rod.
Quote from: Rivverrat on March 18, 2017, 10:33:06 PM
I'm not really understanding how laying a rod flat, pointing the tip at the fish is the most powerful position for a rod ....or not understanding whats being said here....Jeff
I believe the latter. What he is saying is that if you ever really needed to overpower a fish, take the rod (and guides) out of the equation and winch the fish with the rod pointed at the fish. There won't be any shock-absorption, so the line will be prone to snap more easily, but this is the way to place the most tension on the line (and hence, fish). He isn't saying one should do this very often. I think you are over-thinking this rather simple concept.
Sid
I really just don't know about this one. I've used the rod to lift fish through the water my whole life. I've also stopped fish from running by lifting the rod to the point the fish can't run anymore. If I have the fish locked in with the rod up and point it straight at him, that fish will run until the line runs out or he gets tired. I know that meat lines (hand lines) can bring in the bigger fish, but I don't agree that with a line and reel, taking the rod out of the equation is the strongest position. I guess if every fish was caught with an International 80, then maybe this would be the case.
Ron
Quote from: sdlehr on March 18, 2017, 10:52:41 PM
Quote from: Rivverrat on March 18, 2017, 10:33:06 PM
I'm not really understanding how laying a rod flat, pointing the tip at the fish is the most powerful position for a rod ....or not understanding whats being said here....Jeff
I think you are over-thinking this rather simple concept.
Sid
Sid, I've been known to do that. I mean, overthink simple stuff.....I think your assumption is or might be correct....Jeff
Ron, your expressing exactly my prior thoughts that lead to my posting this....Jeff
Japanese flat fall rods are to impart action to the jig, but once hooked up, you point the rod at the fish and let the reel's drag fight the fish.
winch the fish in with the rod then wind, if you point the rod at the fish, and wind your placeing maximum stress on the reel gearing, hence parts wareing faster, cheers Don.
I met a guy Fromm San Francisco that fished in this manner. I cannot remember his name but he was well known and respected. He would pull straight then Reel. He said that sometimes this needs to be done because it's easier to fight the fish in this manner.
Quote from: MarkT on March 19, 2017, 02:19:11 AM
Japanese flat fall rods are to impart action to the jig, but once hooked up, you point the rod at the fish and let the reel's drag fight the fish.
Mark, I understand the extreme ultra light jig fishing. However their reason for using the reel vs the rod with a fish on is because those rods could break.
It's not helping me understand how my pulling on a bent rod against a pulling fish is not as strong as laying the rod flat & allowing the fish to pull.
This begs the question....If you held on to the line from a rod & reel with drag set at say 20 lbs. & took off running
Which would be harder ?
To run while some one held the rod flat or rod held at 45 degrees.
Quote from: Rivverrat on March 19, 2017, 02:35:40 AM
Quote from: MarkT on March 19, 2017, 02:19:11 AM
Japanese flat fall rods are to impart action to the jig, but once hooked up, you point the rod at the fish and let the reel's drag fight the fish.
Mark, I understand the extreme ultra light jig fishing. However their reason for using the reel vs the rod with a fish on is because those rods could break.
It's not helping me understand how my pulling on a bent rod against a pulling fish is not as strong as laying the rod flat & allowing the fish to pull.
You don't allow the fish to pull, you pull the fish, then reel. It is a very effective way to fight a fish, especially with spectra, and very easy on the angler. Watch Kil Song fight a large fish sometime. He uses this technique a lot. In this manner, you aren't fighting the rod, which can be very tiring, especially with a long rod. Try it sometime, you will be surprised. BTW, I don't know of anybody that uses this technique that just winches the fish, but I guess you could.
Hi All,
We use the flat or horizontal rod system - which locally is called 'straight stick', when we hook up big sharks from the beach on long rods - it is a very effective system for dealing with very powerful fish. The value of taking the rod out of the equation and then to fight the fish/shark straight off the drag of the reel, means that much less effort is exerted by the angler on a pwoerful running fish.
Once the fish/shark tires, then the rod is raised to fight in a more conventional manner. There are occassions when because of the leverage factors of using the long surf rods, we might hold the rod horizontal with max drag and walk back up the beach, just to get a heavy fish/shark moving towards the beach, then walk back to the front of the beach with the rod at 45 degrees, winding the gained line, once the fish is moving more frequently towards the beach, then conventional tactics resume.
It is a great way to resolve the stalemate situation we get with very heavy beasts, that you just can't put enough pressure on with the rod in a more vertical orientation.
As a rod builder, the principle the author is trying to get across, is that only the 'un-bent' part of a rod blank is doing any real work - what folks mistakenly call 'the backbone'.
Hope that helps,
Cheers from sunny Africa
Jeri
Sometimes there is merit in doing this but I think it really depends on circumstances.
I've done that on few occasions when overpowered by a Yellowfin Tuna, but its not intended to "winch the fish in" but more a defensive strategy when the fish wants so go underneath the boat and you can not walk around for some reason and you feel you are going to get cut off. It's sometimes also a way for the angler to "rest" for a minute or two as you remove the leverage that works against the angler from the equasion.
• I fish from a small boat, 19ft with 2 or 3 people.
• You need to be close to the water to be able to stick the rod tip deep in the water to keep the line away from the hull.
• We also always fish underpowered. With 80lb tackle I would probably not do that.
OK....Im picking up what's being put down a bit better now. I guess I've done this while using a fly rod for gar. They dart around & sometimes jump out the water. I've an easier time controlling the drag with a flat rod.
Jeri, your explaining the use of this technique with a surf rod makes complete sense. Thanks, Jeff
Hi Jeff,
My pleasure.
Sometimes we are really troubled by using a common language, and getting a point across accurately - without pictures. :D
Cheers from sunny Africa
Jeri
I personally don't understand the theory or style that is being discussed here, but my fishing experience and love of the sport has been the fact of fighting the fish at the end of my line by feeling the action of the rod tension and the fight of the fish. I suppose if you have line strong enough to winch a tank, then you could winch the quarry in like a toe truck toeing a broken-down car. I would say that Sid was rite on with over thinking this. With all due respect to your question.
Joe
Hi All,
Having read through the original author's information on a static load test - it goes towards finding or at least highlighting potentiaqlly the better places to place rings on a rod, in a variety of potitions - angles of incline. However, what he is trying to skip across too quickly, is that any rod is infact a lever 'against' the angler, and by actually reducing that leverage aspect to zero - we come to a point, where the angler can exert maximum pressure on the fish, which is actually greater than the rod might be able to withstand.
When we all strted angling - usually under the supervision of an elder and more wise angler, we learned a very harsh early lesson, never use the rod in a high position to pull for a break from an underwater obstruction,. always pull with the rod horizontal - so as not to break the rod. Only with a rod in this aspect can we pull much harder than the rod might allow us, and break the line.
So, the original author is suggesting that from a position at 0 degrees - horizontal, right round to 90 degrees, the profile and power potential of the rod varies, and as such the positioning of rings and other components vary for best effect.
Unfortunately, while very correct, a lot of modern day blanks with very high strength carbon content will not actually suffer true 90 degree deflection without approaching failure. In cases, where such an action is needed, then lower layers of the rod blank construction are glass fibre to allow that kind of bending without failure. Which drives common folklore to the belief that rods held at 45 degrees are potentially at their maximum power.
It is all a case of the science of levers and the actual composition of the blank and its design strength. A very European or English method of describing the actual strength of the blank, is 'test curve' - the weight that will pull the rod first round to 90 deegrees, this then gives an indication of the strength of the actual blank, which then leads to the final performance parameters. The American system of giving numbers from 1 to 10 would seem to have similar attributes, but I have been able to find critical values for any of the numbers between 1 and 10. For in either system, pulling the rod round beyond 90 degrees doesn't actually produce more power.
So, with say a 3lb test curve rod, or something similar, using 10lb line, and assuming all knots were sound - to break the line, in all probability you would break the rod before approaching the breaking point of the line, if you were pulling with the rod above horizontally or more vertically. So, in the case of the same rod and line being used in a fishing situation, the rod could be used in the horizontal position, or near, and exert considerably more power on the fish than otherwise in a conventional fishing situation. Hardly winching with 10lb line, but certainly more than our 3lb test curve rod could exert.
Hope that adds some clarity.
Cheers
Jeri
Dang Jeri, your one right fart smellow ;D
Like your self after rereading the text I picked up the author was leaving somethings he thought all would assume
Hi
Thanks for the compliment, but there are some seriously smart fellows on this group, some focus on the minutiae of the internal workings of the reels we use. Where I prefer the science and engineering behind long distance casting and the performance of the rods we use.
The beauty is that we are all bound by a common love of fishing as a sport, and mostly have respect for each other. We all also share the common pleasure of sharing knowledge gained from experiences.
We should all thank Alan Tani for setting up this site, every time we log on.
Cheers from sunny Africa
Jeri
Its funny how we sometimes do things for so long we no longer give it much thought. My favorite river rod gets fished past its line rating several times each year. The reel now on this rod can put out more drag than the rod could take. So when Im doing this Ive laid the rod flat when after Ive increased the drag & fish is taking line.
However Ive never done this thinking it was a stronger method of fighting a fish.
It is quite interesting to think about the whole science of the levers involved - if you think of the gimbal as the fulcrum, the longer your rod = more mechanical advantage to the fish.
I believe this is part of the reason behind the way the mechanical jigging rods we use are set up - most are around 5' long, but also have extremely long butts, so the angler is often fighting the fish with all of maybe 3' of actual rod. With these little rods you can exert a ridiculous amount of pressure on a fish, however by the same token it is very easy to "high-stick" them causing a spectacular and expensive failure of the blank, often right in front of the fore-grip.
Wherever I can get away with it (i.e. I don't need the sensitivity of a longer rod) I'm moving to a whole lot of rather silly looking little sub-6' rods, often with tiny but very powerful lever drag reels.
The original article is right, for maximum pulling power just point the tip at the fish, palm/thumb the spool to take the load off the gears and just pull like you're breaking off a snag. But if a decent fish shakes it's head, the shock loading of line, hook and the fish's mouth is going to end in tears.
The fulcrum is the point where a lever rests and would normally be the fore grip. But yeah.... what you said.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on March 29, 2017, 08:31:40 PM
The fulcrum is the point where a lever rests and would normally be the fore grip. But yeah.... what you said.
-steve
;D ;D ;D
Joe