Please post your questions about the chronology of this reel in this thread.
This category has been sitting for over a year with no posts, so I figure I would throw something out there. I was talking with a friend of mine about how scarce the Silver Beach Model 98 is. I have not seen one for sale in a few years, so I figure I would post a few pictures. Has anyone seen one for sale recently?
Mine is a 1938 model which makes it a hair more special because of the handle.
I haven't seen any pop up either Mike.
I have to agree... that is one tough find, nice reel Mike!
Dom
I have a 98 silverbeach or at least most of one. It has the wrong handle, handle nut and spool. Any way to tell the age so I can find the correct parts. Here's a few pictures. Thanks
QuoteI have a 98 silverbeach or at least most of one. It has the wrong handle, handle nut and spool. Any way to tell the age so I can find the correct parts. Here's a few pictures. Thanks
The closest I could come would be to say 1939 to 1942. You could get a torpedo handle from any Long Beach 60 or 65
from that era and use it on the Model 98. Here is a NOS Model 97 with a handle that would be correct for your reel. This NOS Model 97 does not have a drilled spool, it is pinned.
Cannot see your spool, so I do not know what is wrong with it. It should be a non-part number spool but it does not have to be a drilled spool.
My model 98 has a spool without part numbers but it has a pin, not a hole. At the tail plate on my Model 98 has a Hershey Kiss clicker button even though the reel has the old 1938 handle. So the rules are variable.
Thanks, the spool has a part #, 29-99, so I figured it wasn't correct. Might be a tough spool to find. That 97 is a beauty, thanks for posting
QuoteThanks, the spool has a part #, 29-99, so I figured it wasn't correct. Might be a tough spool to find. That 97 is a beauty, thanks for posting
You are correct. If it has a Part Number, it is the wrong spool. The Model 97 is a pre-war reel, no part numbers back then.
I like the knurled thumb bar on that.
Was it common on other reels too and from what years?
Erik, I've seen those knurled posts like that on Long Beaches as well. They're all from the same late '30's era.
QuoteErik, I've seen those knurled posts like that on Long Beaches as well. I think they're all from the same era.
I find he knurled bars on a few different models, including reels with star drags. They are really pointless on a star drag reel, which tells me that Penn was simply using them up. The knurling was to give a friction type surface for use with a Thumb Stall. So, if the reel has a drag, it is unlikely to need a thumb stall. That is my opinion only; but, it seems logical to me.
Quote from: Penn Chronology on February 07, 2018, 03:34:33 PM
QuoteErik, I've seen those knurled posts like that on Long Beaches as well. I think they're all from the same era.
I find he knurled bars on a few different models, including reels with star drags. They are really pointless on a star drag reel, which tells me that Penn was simply using them up. The knurling was to give a friction type surface for use with a Thumb Stall. So, if the reel has a drag, it is unlikely to need a thumb stall. That is my opinion only; but, it seems logical to me.
It does seem logical, but it is probably also simplistic and ignores that man is a creature of habit, and a lot of early (even into the 30's) reels with star drags also have an obsolete thumb stall (star drag really came about in the teens).... my take has been it is because the older fishermen were used to it and wanted it even if they didn't need it. Old habits die hard. Perhaps Penn was trying to use them up, perhaps it was part of a marketing ploy to appeal to older, seasoned fishermen who didn't need that newfangled star drag contraption. They aren't mutually exclusive.
The only Penn reel I have with one is a Seagate. I have several reels from this period that had Pflueger leather thumb stalls mounted on them.
John
QuoteThe only Penn reel I have with one is a Seagate. I have several reels from this period that had Pflueger leather thumb stalls mounted on them.
Of course Penn never offered a Thumb Stall; but, a non-drag reel like Model 98 calls for one. most thumb stalls you see are Pflueger, although they were made by other manufactures. Pflueger installed them on their own reels and also sold them separately. The ones you see with the Bulldog logo are the ones that Pflueger sold separately. The ones that were installed by Pflueger as a standard reel part had no markings. I would say that they could be useful on a star drag reel as an enhancement to the drag or a controlling factor. Especially when used by a fisherman that was accustomed to using one.
I know that when I am fishing for certain species, I leave the reel in free spool to feed the line and when doing so, I am controlling the line with my thumb. I am very conscious to engage the reel but have set the hook many times in the free spool mode and would have appreciated a thumb stall when that happens. Of course I am not accustomed to using one, I am more accustomed to burning my thumb before I get the reel back in gear.
Quote from: Penn Chronology on February 08, 2018, 06:08:02 AM
most thumb stalls you see are Pflueger,
Pflueger patented the thumb stall first CLICK HERE (https://patents.google.com/patent/US1379692A/en?q=FISHING+REEL&inventor=Pflueger&before=filing:19201231&after=filing:19100101) in 1921, which would've expired in 1937 if the same 16-yr protection was given back then. The patent design is different than the design we commonly see, but I'm guessing the wording was general enough to patent the idea, not the exact design (maybe I should've read it?).
Quotemost thumb stalls you see are Pflueger,
Pflueger patented the thumb stall first here in 1921, which would've expired in 1937 if the same 16-yr protection was given back then. The patent design is different than the design we commonly see, but I'm guessing the wording was general enough to patent the idea, not the exact design (maybe I should've read it?).
Pflueger had some very different thumb stalls as well as the standard leather model. I have not seen the patent you are referring to but here is their catalog referring to the early thumb stall patents and the crazy wood and German silver thumb stall they patented. Pflueger had many patents, a book could be written about that alone.
I managed to find a correct spool and handle nut but have been coming up empty on the correct handle for my 98. If anyone has one they'd part with please let me know. $ or trade. Thanks Sheridan
Was the quick take-apart feature on all the 98 and 97's, or did it show up at a certain time, or start off that way, and then was discontinued?
The Take Apart is part of the model. Always there...just like the #99.
Quote from: Swami805 on April 10, 2018, 01:12:07 PM
I managed to find a correct spool and handle nut but have been coming up empty on the correct handle for my 98. If anyone has one they'd part with please let me know. $ or trade. Thanks Sheridan
Sheridan, I think I have a '38 handle for your reel if you're interested. I can't look at it or photograph it until tonight.
How does a 98 compare to a 99, in terms of spool size, width, gear ratio, etc?
It's the same only it's a knuckle buster,no drag.
Sent a PM, Thanks Sid
Hi All, Another reel I am unsure of the year or era.
I hope it was alright to put it up on this thread.
I may have used up my welcome today with 3-4 reels posted up, hope that's OK.
Col
Did you run into a gold mine?
The classics always keep their value.
Cool! A model 98? Supposed to be rare if remember right. No model number, no drag star and accorrding to a guy on Orca, no anti-reverse (don't seem logical, though...).
Wood knob, hershy shaped click button, tall counter weight, can't see if the spool's drilled or pinned...
Thanks, so it's a 98 model ?
No, haven't run into a gold mine LOL
BUT, have been extremely lucky by the sounds, to get the reels I did.
It was from a collection being sold off.
Col
There's actually a thread for the model 98 Silver Beach on page 3 of this "Vintage-Penn" sub-forum. Check it out, and maybe a moderator can move it if need be. Indeed that's good find!
Ok, Sorry, I missed that thread on 98 reels,
Yes definitely if the Mod's want to shift it yes.
Apologies again.
Col
Nice reels Col, is the collection they came from in Australia by any chance?
Mike
Quote from: milne on November 08, 2018, 06:40:58 AM
Hi All, Another reel I am unsure of the year or era.
I hope it was alright to put it up on this thread.
I may have used up my welcome today with 3-4 reels posted up, hope that's OK.
Col
No such thing as to many reel pictures. Keep posting!
QuoteMike, I could re-chrome that handle blade for you. It won't be a thick enough chrome to hold up to use, but if it is to sit on a shelf it should look fine. Let me know.
Just noticed you made me this offer. I thank you but I will leave it just the way it is. When things get old, scratched and dull I just clean them and label the condition as a very rare form of ""Patina"". I like them true to their age, kind of like me..........<:O(
(Moved from another thread, SDL)
Hi all, I put this up on the 97 Surfmaster thread, but someone Identified it as a 98 model.
I'm about to strip this reel down and clean it up a bit, it's in not to bad a condition, a lot of wear though.
My NEWBIE question, and I apologise in advance,
The extra knob/button with the words turn and lift, I noticed it's on the 151 I have a well, but I haven't got to that reel yet.
As mentioned, I haven't seen this feature before.
Thanks in advance.
Col
You have a quick-release head plate. Unscrew that button, pull it towards you and hold it out, twist the whole head plate counter-clockwise, and it should pull offa there. This was I believe, mainly for quick changing spools. My 97 has an arrow etched on the ring that lines up with the button when ready to tighten back down.
Hey Gfish,
Aha, That's what I've been hearing about the quick release thing.
I don't think that feature has been used for a while, she was pretty tough to get it to budge, but off it came !
A lot of green ugly's in there, I almost was going to leave this reel as it was, it was clean on the outside, but a lot of chrome worn off.
So I'm right happy I asked now. It's all very clear once you take one off how it works.
Gee, not a scarip of lubricant anywhere inside.
Mine has that wee arrow as well.........
Thanks Gfish, appreciate your reply, another one commences !!!!!
Cheers
Col
Hi Again,
Firstly it would be good to confirm whether this is indeed a 98 model.
Secondly, after my strip down, it looked as if the line had been on there well before my grand father had a glint in his eyes,
Plus, the amount of "green stuff" present, Does this justify doing a white vinegar soak ?
Or will the WD40 scrub with my trusty tooth brush be sufficient ?
I thought I read somewhere about neutralising the stuff, but wasn't sure, and I don't want to do damage to her.
Cheers
Col
Now the ugly stuff, re question on cleaning.
Hi Col,
When I get a reel I wish to restore, like this one, the first step is an overnight soak in white vinegar. Anymore I just soak the entire reel in a bucket overnight. This also can do a good job of loosening stuck screws. Then it gets a thorough rinse in fresh water. The next step is a soak in mineral spirits, again (usually) the entire reel takes a bath. This removes the water and grease. I then disassemble and clean each piece individually, removing whatever the first two soaks did not. If there was grease covering corroded metal it may need another vinegar soak after the grease has been removed. Then a light coat of light oil (If you want to use WD-40 that would work, but remove the excess before reassembly). If you leave the green corrosion the corrosion process just continues no matter what you do, and the reel continues to deteriorate. The final oil treatment coats the metal and prevents further oxidation of the copper (brass is copper and zinc, the green is a copper salt that forms under oxidation conditions just like rust forms on iron under the same conditions).
Sometimes I soak a reel overnight two consecutive nights before I do anything else with it. If you have a few reels to do this is easy, just stagger them. If there is only one to do, just be patient. I have warmed the vinegar solution in the past to accelerate the removal of the green copper salts, in which case a few hours of soaking would suffice. The vinegar will remove all loose plating and reveal the copper below. It does not damage the finish but reveals where the finish has already been damaged in the form of bright brass spots becoming visible where the green was.. ORCA (Old Reel Collectors Association) guidelines are to remove all corrosion in this manner so as to stop the corrosion process and stabilize the reel for future generations. Folks that keep their reels in "as found" condition have to live with the continued corrosion, and I'm not sure they all understand the consequences.
The white powder on the spool arbor is likely not corrosion but is what is left of the line - it will come off after soaking with a toothbrush scrub, just get to it before it dries and hardens again. I have a plastic tool I use for rod building that I use to scrape that crap off the arbor - the plastic tool is soft enough to not damage the chrome but hard enough to give me some leverage in cleaning.
Thankyou for your reply, that makes things a lot clearer.
I will start with a white vinegar soak tonight.
Thanks
Col
Show us how things go.
Well, I finished stripping and cleaning the 98.
I used white vinegar this time, I chose just to put the reel frame and seat in first, left it for about 4-5 hours,
It completely removed all the nasty green stuff.
Next, in went the spool !!
Came back into the room, not 15 minutes later, to see that most of the chrome had already disappeared.
When I took the line off the reel, I knew that there was some serious issues there, thick white hard discoloured gunk.
I decided to just clean the rest with the tooth brush method, It did scare me a bit how aggressive the vinegar was.
But it was in such bad shape the chrome loss was inevitable I think.
all the insides ( sorry didn't take photo) was scrubbed up, re greased and assembled.
This hard to get 98, will still sit pride and place on my shelf, with character patina !!
I figure that it would have only continued to deteriorate had I not have cleaned it properly.
Col
Col,
Don't worry, if it was already flaking and loose there's no way to save it. Over time a nice patina will build on the reel making all look nice and vintage but for now enjoy your rescue. You prevented that reel from turning into a corroded mess which is what it's all about.
I'm gonna ask you to take one more step. I used to be really nervous about dipping the handles in vinegar So to get that corrosion where the grasp and the handle blade meet I take a plastic dish (or any flat plate), stand the handle up so the grasp is pointed up and the handle blade flat in the center of the plate. Then it's jusr a matter of putting enough 50/50-vinegar/water to cover the handle blade and stop just before the grasp gets touched. You will be able to get that corrosion in the crevice there. At that point all corrosion will be off the reel and no chance of parts just falling apart. Almost forgot, I personally, run all the parts I cleaned with vinegar through warm water, dry as much as possible, then air dry overnight. Install again next day (grease if you like) and you're good to go.
Well done, I can appreciate your passion and bravery for taking this restoration on,
Dom
Good job on the clean - up ! You have to remember that it wasn't YOU that took the plating off...it was the corrosion. And that had to go , so, a cleaning is just what the old gal needed !
Thanks Guys, appreciated.
Dom, Yes, I rinsed off in warm water after that soak, then I sprayed liberally with WD40 and gave it a light Tooth brushing,
then a wipe down, and greased it as I assembled it.
What got me, was how that white gunk, in literally 10 minutes, had gone in the soak, along with the chrome.
My heart sank when I walked back into the room !!!!
It always had a fair bit of chrome wear, Well used I shall call it, but yep, the corrosion had to go.
Dom, thanks for the tip for the handle, I admit I was gun shy to go further with it, I'll do that on the weekend.
Cheers
Col
Hi Dom,
Just wanted to let you know, that suggestion of just soaking the handle in a shallow disc, worked a treat !
To be honest, I never even noticed the green scunge until you mentioned it and I grabbed the reel, so thanks for that.
It worked great, one of the wife's saucers, just enough vinegar water mix to come up level with the handle. I left it overnight
and with minimal effort, a tooth brush and some WD40, all the green stuff is gone.
It was a bit sad seeing all the chrome loss, still erks me, But it is now preserved shall I say !
Still have a few reels to strip and clean, some are in ok condition, but I think this 98 was the worst of all of them.
I had another delivery today, a 3 poster and a 4 poster Sea Hawke ( still not early enough to have any JK markings)
So now with the collection growing, it's time to build a decent shelf for display and organise them.
Thanks for the tip !!!!!!!
Col
Very happy to hear that reel will be around another 75 years... nice job!
You'll find your JK plates soon I'm pretty sure. ;)
Enjoy your new collection and let us see that display when it's ready.
Stay fishy
Dom
QuoteStill have a few reels to strip and clean, some are in ok condition, but I think this 98 was the worst of all of them.
I had another delivery today, a 3 poster and a 4 poster Sea Hawke ( still not early enough to have any JK markings)
So now with the collection growing, it's time to build a decent shelf for display and organise them.
You an excellent job on the Model 98. The cleaning directions given to you by Sid are First Class and following them perfectly has created a true survivor reel for your collection. I have seen many reels, the condition your Model 98 is in now is not bad at all and desirable because it will no longer deteriorate with age.
Your Model 98 is special in more ways than one. Just the fact that it is a Model 98 makes it a very limited production collectible. The reason Penn quit making the Model 98 was because it did not sell well. When that happens to any production item, it creates lower than normal amounts of the item being released. In the world of collectibles, one of the greatest contributing factors to the value and scarcity of any collectible is original production verses the demand.
In the world of Penn collectibles, that relates to the popularity of a particular model and how many of that model were made. The Silver Beach became a classic Penn reel after the war. It was made for many years wearing the Model 99 number. The early pre-war Models 97 & 98 immediately have their own significant identity because they are the parent model of the classic Model 99.
So now we have a reel model group named the Silver Beach models and a significant difference that separates this model group from other model groups. That difference is the Model number change in the before and after the war production and how easy it is to identify the reels into their proper group. All pre-war Silver Beach models are Model 97 & 98 reels and are easily identified that way because there is no model number on the head plate. Cannot miss a pre-war Silver Beach.
Now you have a basic, very popular, high end reel in a pre-war group that is identified that way. That is a first step in making for a significant collectible.
That said, we now look at the pre-war group and see two models. One of those models is favored by the buying public much more than the other and that model would be the Model 97. The Model 97 is a complete package with a drag and anti-reverse. The Model 98 is an old obsolete style falling into a group of reel types named "Knuckle Busters". By the late 1930's, Knuckle Busters were falling out of fashion in the fishing world, so the Model 98 was a lousy seller. Being a lousy seller makes for low production numbers and unconsciously create a hot collectible. That is the second factor that makes the Model 98 special.
So now this model 98 is looking really special in the desirable collectible world. The next special factor about your reel is the handle style. You have a pear shaped handle on your Model 98. Every Model 98 made from 1939 to the end of the pre-war era has a Torpedo handle. The only Model 98 with a pear shaped handle is the 1938 model, which makes your reel that much more desirable.
So, basically, if you have read this much of my babble you now know that your Model 98 is the best of all the Model 98 versions to have. In other words, your reel is a """Winner""" in the collectible world.
Congrats on a great job to a old time great reel and welcome to the world of Penn Collecting............<:O)
The Sea Hawk with the three posts and a handle actuating free spool is a 1933 model, if you have a free spool lever on your 3 pillar Sea Hawk, then it is a 1937. If your Sea Hawk is the 1933 version, it will have the Circle K brand on the inner side of the side plates.
Thank you for the information on the 98, great information.
I'm hunting desperately for your book at the minute, but not with any luck. From what I have heard it is full of valuable information like what you
have just told me on Penn reels. At the moment I have an old Penn model listing, which I am going by, as well as all the helpful advice here on the forum.
I find all the history on Penn reels intriguing, which also makes finding and collecting these classics so much more interesting.
I've been lucky in respect to being able to obtain some hard to get reels for the start of my collection, quite fortunate actually, and this has just spurred me
on even more.
Thanks again for the info, much appreciated.
Col