I've seen aftermarket upgrades for Abu Garcia 4000, 5000, and 6000 series reels including dual bearing worm gear kit with ceramic pawl, super ported dual ball bearing idler gear kit, and ceramic spool bearings.
Will these upgrades really help casting distance enough to make it worthwhile? I know removing the level wind assembly will help, but I'm not a big fan of non-level wind reels. Besides, lately l've found used Abus for $8 apiece, doesn't make sense to spend $80 to $100 when l can find a brand new reel for that price. ::)
before you start spending money, try cleaning out the old parts with carb cleaner, then lube it with TSI and go fish. i think you will be pleasantly surprised.
I know that (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=22938.0;attach=40787;image) does make a difference but at what cost...
I know of guys in Malaysia that drills out the stock idler gears to reduce weight and it helps in reducing rotational mass. I haven't tried it myself, but it's quite amazing the amount of free-spool they get.
Quote from: alantani on September 27, 2017, 04:39:27 PM
before you start spending money, try cleaning out the old parts with carb cleaner, then lube it with TSI and go fish. i think you will be pleasantly surprised.
l've cleaned my old parts in most of my Abus with carb cleaner and lighter fluid and lubed them with marine grease and 3-ln-One oil. So TSl is a much better lube than what l've been using?
Quote from: Bryan Young on September 27, 2017, 05:00:28 PM
I know that (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=22938.0;attach=40787;image) does make a difference but at what cost...
I know of guys in Malaysia that drills out the stock idler gears to reduce weight and it helps in reducing rotational mass. I haven't tried it myself, but it's quite amazing the amount of free-spool they get.
Those are about 20 bucks plus shipping, they look effective but l still think they're overpriced.
I have done a few level-wind abu upgrades and find very little difference in distance, I only found a noticeable difference is when I removed level wind.
Mark
Quote from: festus on September 27, 2017, 05:42:38 PM
Quote from: alantani on September 27, 2017, 04:39:27 PM
before you start spending money, try cleaning out the old parts with carb cleaner, then lube it with TSI and go fish. i think you will be pleasantly surprised.
l've cleaned my old parts in most of my Abus with carb cleaner and lighter fluid and lubed them with marine grease and 3-ln-One oil. So TSl is a much better lube than what l've been using?
Quote from: Bryan Young on September 27, 2017, 05:00:28 PM
I know that (http://alantani.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=22938.0;attach=40787;image) does make a difference but at what cost...
I know of guys in Malaysia that drills out the stock idler gears to reduce weight and it helps in reducing rotational mass. I haven't tried it myself, but it's quite amazing the amount of free-spool they get.
Those are about 20 bucks plus shipping, they look effective but l still think they're overpriced.
Considering the bearing is $8-$12, well, the cost for the plastic piece sounds reasonable.
Quote from: alantani on September 27, 2017, 04:39:27 PM
before you start spending money, try cleaning out the old parts with carb cleaner, then lube it with TSI and go fish. i think you will be pleasantly surprised.
I agree...especially if you lubed levelwind components with grease...if oiled they will spin much easier. TSI will produce the fastest spool and could even get out of control if your thumb is not well educated. 8)
Quote from: mo65 on September 27, 2017, 06:45:04 PM
Quote from: alantani on September 27, 2017, 04:39:27 PM
before you start spending money, try cleaning out the old parts with carb cleaner, then lube it with TSI and go fish. i think you will be pleasantly surprised.
I agree...especially if you lubed levelwind components with grease...if oiled they will spin much easier. TSI will produce the fastest spool and could even get out of control if your thumb is not well educated. 8)
No, l use oil on levelwind and bearings, A couple days ago l saw a youtube video on reel servicing and the guy was putting grease on the worm gear. Don't know what his reasoning could be. l need to look into this TSl.
If your'e fishing in the sand, grease is a big no-no!, clean n lightly lubed will get you as fast as possible.
I think un-oiled full ceramic bearings give the longest free spin time. The free spin time correlates to longer casts, but there are diminishing returns and you soon get to the point where upgrades do not make a noticeable difference out in the field.
After fine tuning, the reel will still need braking to get it under control. Spool tension knobs, oil and grease, and (God forbid) friction brakes provide braking but the amount of braking pressure remains the same or even decreases as the spool speed increases. This is the opposite of what you want. The best braking systems apply no pressure at low spool speeds and more pressure as the spool speed increases. These include centrifugal and magnetic brakes.
Something with very low viscosity like Hot Sauce will give you more free spin time than TSI. But, the low viscosity stuff does not last long and may need to be reapplied in just an hour or so.
Giving up the level wind is difficult, but not as bad as you might think if the reel palms well and you can lay line with your thumb from above. It soon becomes second nature. The 5000 size round reel is a little too big for me and something smaller or lower profile is needed to make it comfortable to use without levelwind.
-steve
I've done a bunch of them but not to extremes like the ported cog wheel. The single bearing cog wheel is a waist. The double bearing cog wheel is great. Along with the Ceramic Hybrid bearings throughout the reel.
I've done some 4500's that the line guide goes back and forth over 20 times just by spinning the spool. They are a narrow reel.
Is it too much? I think so but this is what some people want. Just to know all the goodies are in the reel.
I oil the bearings with TSI301. After the reel is assembled I use air to blow the spool fast. It gives the best freespool after doing so.
Jerry at Foran reel Service doesn't oil the Ceramic Hybrid cog wheel bearings. I don't know if he oils the spool bearings.
just use tsi301 on spool bearings - tsi321 on level wind - grease on gears and cranking stuff - don't try and over think it :o
Ceramic bearings do help with casting. I had several reels that suffered before I did the upgrades. My abu beast round was a pain until I upgraded it. It is a outstanding reel now. It has every upgrade known to man. I even found stainless gears to finish it off. Right down to the gear sleeve with a bearing.
Mike
Great help, guys. l've been fishing Abu round baitcasters for at least 40 years but have learned more about the internal parts in the last few weeks since l discovered this site than in my entire fishing days.
Casting distance is 85% skill and maybe the rest tackle.
Quote from: handi2 on September 27, 2017, 09:33:43 PM
I've done a bunch of them but not to extremes like the ported cog wheel. The single bearing cog wheel is a waist. The double bearing cog wheel is great. Along with the Ceramic Hybrid bearings throughout the reel.
I've done some 4500's that the line guide goes back and forth over 20 times just by spinning the spool. They are a narrow reel.
Is it too much? I think so but this is what some people want. Just to know all the goodies are in the reel.
I oil the bearings with TSI301. After the reel is assembled I use air to blow the spool fast. It gives the best freespool after doing so.
Jerry at Foran reel Service doesn't oil the Ceramic Hybrid cog wheel bearings. I don't know if he oils the spool bearings.
Keith, Do the ported cog wheels have double bearings. Thanks Paul
I would think so. The single bearing ones dont do squat.
Quote from: festus on September 27, 2017, 04:05:32 PM
...Besides, lately l've found used Abus for $8 apiece, doesn't make sense to spend $80 to $100 when l can find a brand new reel for that price. ::)
upgrades are not related to the original cost of the reels, with the tons of upgrades for the jigmaster and 113h on this site once you put on your reel those upgrades, for the same money you can buy 2-3 brand new reels.
so, its not about the cost of the upgrades but how much money you want to expend to get your reel to another level.
btw, I agree with Cor, technique and another factors like rod, line, weight, lure, etc play an important role to achieve better distance once you are already casting far, so, can I ask, how much more distance are you willing to achieve? most casting distance upgrades are noticiable on competitios not much on real world fishing
I know we are talking about Abus. But I have zero experience upgrading them. I know on my Newelled albacore special I can cast 50% further than the stock reel at least, but I'm thinking that I've done more than just a cog wheel.
Anyhoo... I am certain that specific upgrades increase distance. I'd have to agree that the upgrade being worth it is dependant on what the owner is looking for and his skill level. Higher level upgrades tend to give more observed improvement to those who really know how to cast in my experience.
Ron
I have 3 abu garcias that have that machined gear, dual bearings etc all you mention. TSI good grease and go have fun. The upgrades,were fun and I learned alot on how to work on them a bit. Would,I do it again no! Didn't see much gain in distance but that might be the guy casting lol.
Quote from: Cor on September 28, 2017, 03:48:49 AM
Casting distance is 85% skill and maybe the rest tackle.
I guess I have an issue with this statement. Let me put it into perspective.
A 500 Jigmaster with a brass spool and gear sleeve is just not a fantastic casting reel. It takes a LOT of weight to get that big spool spinning, it is difficult to get the frame aligned to where there is no undue resistance etc.
Put an aluminum frame and spool on that reel, install a SS gear sleeve and proper lubrication (Newell bushings never hurt if you can find them,) and that reel becomes a rocket. The spool spins easier which means you can throw less weight considerably farther. By you I mean someone who is at least a good caster.
Now, if we are talking different levels of human ability, I agree. A very good caster can outcast an average caster by a considerable amount (I'd wager as much as 400%) with the same equipment because of their skill level. The very good caster can usually gain more of an advantage with various upgrades. To put this in perspective, lets use the Jigmaster above. A very good caster can cast a 2 ounce weight on rod x with the factory reel 75 yards. An average caster is going to cast the same rig maybe 30 yards, understand that by average I mean the average guy on a party boat, not the average guy on this board. The very good caster will be able to cast the upgrades reel a country mile, well in excess of 100 yards. The average caster will overspeed the light spool and end up with a birds nest, or cast maybe just a little more than the original 30 yards.
Ron
I would fall into that category. I can't cast anything worth a hoot!!
let me add the next and dont get me wrong, we are comparing a regular reel and a regular fisherman vs adding some upgrades, if you change 80% of the parts of the reel then it would be practically another reel and it for sure cast like another reel.
a good play is always important to get good distance when casting, some guys cant cast any type of casting reel reel but they cast casting levelwind reels like champs, I have a friend that cant cast a trinidad, newell, etc (in short any boat casting reel even if they are small) but cast like a champ his Tranx and send the lure or iron to the moon on them, with no single overrun, he say to all guys that he is an expert casting to YT just to ask him to cast a super free casting reel like a fathom 25n or sealine 30sha
All else being equal - using a decent casting reel like a small ABU, you will gain more distance by changing the rod first than expensive tweaks on the reel unless off course the reel is a brass spool jigmaster then it is a different story.
For once, I agree with everything above. Especially the part about rods and not being able to cast anything worth a hoot. I don't go out until the reel is tuned to thumbless. A good caster would give up a lot of yards by using that much brake.
-steve
OK,
I'll display my ignorance. Can you really tune brakes down to where you don't need to thumb the spool at all? And the line still goes out when you cast?
Wow, who'd a thought.
Ron
Everytime I read this I want to comment (mainly disagree with someone) then decide to leave it as there are simply too many variables in this discussion and it will take a very long explanation and then some will probably still disagree.
Most of the guys I fish with are pretty competent casters and use suitable tackle to achieve whatever the objective may be on a particular occasion. We try to lay our lure accurately in front and over moving shoals of Yellowtail, which may be 10 yds away or out of reach. The type of fishing we do involves casting, lots of casting under all sort of conditions, usually in strong wind, sometimes up to 40 knots, mostly coming from the side(s). Everything affects your cast, even the height you are above the water. This is just a little background.
Quote from: Ron "Jones on September 29, 2017, 06:56:14 AM
OK,
I'll display my ignorance. Can you really tune brakes down to where you don't need to thumb the spool at all? And the line still goes out when you cast?
Wow, who'd a thought.
Ron
Yes, it is perfectly possible to cast a conventional reel and only use your thumb once to stop the reel turning at the end of your cast.
To do that you need to be in perfect control of your setup, and you essentially need to use a magnetic cast control system, preferably an adjustable system, but static works as well. I have never tried it on a centrifugal cast control, they just don't work for me but perhaps it's also possible. What is important is that you have reasonably stable wind conditions and preferably not from the front, or in your face.
For 30 years I used only the "educated thumb" method to control my cast with perfect results. Many of my friends still fish like that and can outcast me easily. From about 2005 I started to experiment with Magnetic cast control systems and eventually concluded that they make casting easier, especially very quick casts. They do restrict your distance very marginally but I've chosen to stay with them.
Now someone who is a competitive dry caster will probably come in and claim the opposite, but remember, I cast under fishing conditions which is a very big difference to dry casting. I need to use line that is at minimum 0.5 mm thick (mono), a reel that is adequate to hold a Yellowtail and pull it through structure, a rod with lots of backbone that can't usually be longer than 11ft, and so on!
Finally, Ive experimented with casting a long long time and from about 2005 went out to try to improve my casting distance and concluded that very little I did to my tackle could change the fact that 142 yds was as far as I could get and that still holds. ;D
I even went to the Gym to increase my back and arm strength which definitively plays a role.
Quote from: Ron "Jones on September 29, 2017, 06:56:14 AM
OK,
I'll display my ignorance. Can you really tune brakes down to where you don't need to thumb the spool at all? And the line still goes out when you cast?
Wow, who'd a thought.
Ron
Yes with mag brakes you can do that, but it still won't save you from a fluffed cast. What you need to try and do is get it set so you almost get an over run otherwise you lose a lot of distance. Thumbing though can be a big distance killer. Controlling the spool with the spool tensioner also, not the best. All mine are set completely lose, in fact I may as well not have them.
That is why I am asking, I have a few reels that have some sort of brake but I have removed them due to pure ignorance of there use. Decades of teaching my thumb and lots of mistakes is how I figured it out. Just didn't realize brakes were that effective.
Ron
I would take special notice of what Alan Tani suggested, I brought an Abu reel of off him, through the Aussie autum, Alan took the brass bushes out & replaced them with roller bearing, the reel cast real easy, & I caught a nice size shark with it, using a bodgeed, up rod, another bit of advice I can forward is, I brought a Penn 14/0 with a hole in the face plate, I had to buy a new face plate, when I fitted it, using the same shims that were in it, the free spool was not that good, with know side movement in the spool, I opened it up & removed two of the shims, the free spool inproved, like you would not beleave, still very little side movement in the spool, I am thinking, that may be the reason why there was a large hole, in the face plate, to much pressure, cheers Don.
For UK beach casting I use a 14' rod designed to cast 5oz and an Akios 551 Shuttle (an Ambassadeur 5500 clone). I modded the reel with hybrid ceramic bearings (oiled with TSI for beach work - no oil for dry casting). The reel already had a large knobby style adjustable magnetic brake which worked fine. Cf drags and light grease. The reel has a machined one piece frame that holds everything in alignment very well. I load the reel with 12lb mono and a shock leader. Dry casting, with the 14' rod I can get 160yds. With a borrowed 15' rod I did manage to break the 200yds barrier a couple of times only using a semi pendulum cast. For real fishing with bait and weight I can manage 130-140yds on a good day ;D
If I really try and punch the cast I get less distance and often the bait flies off. A bit like fly fishing you've got to load the rod properly for the cast to work. I reckon the ceramic bearings gave me about 20yds on a good cast.
And there you go. 20 yard improvement, or 15%, on what would otherwise be a 110-120 yard cast. If you gave that rig to someone who usually casts 30 yards, and they don't make a mess, I'd guess a 5-10% improvement of 3 or 4 yards. The better you are, the more you can take advantage of the upgrades.
As an aside, this works in cars and basically everything else. If you can normally drive a car around a track at 60 MPH, and a professional driver can get it around the same track at 150MPH. A 10% improvement in performance optained by the professional will probably do nothing to your time and might slow it down.
Ron
I tune the reel to be thumbless casting cross wind. That would forfeit a few yards down wind but you can make up for it by just putting more power behind the rod down wind and using a higher trajectory. It still won't over run. Throwing into the wind I start to use thumb and lower the trajectory.
The new centrifugal brakes are adjusted by engaging or disengaging brake shoes like the older styles but also have an additional fine adjustment ramp. They can be tuned as precisely as adjustable magnets.
The biggest thing I throw is 0.4 ounce. Rods nine to eleven feet. It's repetitive cast and retrieve and I want to be thinking about the fish and their terrain, not the mechanics of casting.
-steve
Quote from: Cor on September 29, 2017, 08:10:35 AM
Everytime I read this I want to comment (mainly disagree with someone) then decide to leave it as there are simply too many variables in this discussion and it will take a very long explanation and then some will probably still disagree.
Most of the guys I fish with are pretty competent casters and use suitable tackle to achieve whatever the objective may be on a particular occasion. We try to lay our lure accurately in front and over moving shoals of Yellowtail, which may be 10 yds away or out of reach. The type of fishing we do involves casting, lots of casting under all sort of conditions, usually in strong wind, sometimes up to 40 knots, mostly coming from the side(s). Everything affects your cast, even the height you are above the water. This is just a little background.
Quote from: Ron "Jones on September 29, 2017, 06:56:14 AM
OK,
I'll display my ignorance. Can you really tune brakes down to where you don't need to thumb the spool at all? And the line still goes out when you cast?
Wow, who'd a thought.
Ron
Yes, it is perfectly possible to cast a conventional reel and only use your thumb once to stop the reel turning at the end of your cast.
To do that you need to be in perfect control of your setup, and you essentially need to use a magnetic cast control system, preferably an adjustable system, but static works as well. I have never tried it on a centrifugal cast control, they just don't work for me but perhaps it's also possible. What is important is that you have reasonably stable wind conditions and preferably not from the front, or in your face.
For 30 years I used only the "educated thumb" method to control my cast with perfect results. Many of my friends still fish like that and can outcast me easily. From about 2005 I started to experiment with Magnetic cast control systems and eventually concluded that they make casting easier, especially very quick casts. They do restrict your distance very marginally but I've chosen to stay with them.
Now someone who is a competitive dry caster will probably come in and claim the opposite, but remember, I cast under fishing conditions which is a very big difference to dry casting. I need to use line that is at minimum 0.5 mm thick (mono), a reel that is adequate to hold a Yellowtail and pull it through structure, a rod with lots of backbone that can't usually be longer than 11ft, and so on!
Finally, Ive experimented with casting a long long time and from about 2005 went out to try to improve my casting distance and concluded that very little I did to my tackle could change the fact that 142 yds was as far as I could get and that still holds. ;D
I even went to the Gym to increase my back and arm strength which definitively plays a role.
Isn't it strange that when that pinnacle (cor's 145 yds) is reached, you can't get any further? I'm at about 130-140 yds w/ 8 different reels n rods.So regardless of what i'm throwing I get about the same.....but my buddy who is 6'7" n weighs close to 300 can smoke my butt and he never practices! He just throws as hard as he can! So Cor I reckon we need more lead i our ####!
Quote from: fishhawk on October 04, 2017, 01:46:38 PM
Quote from: Cor on September 29, 2017, 08:10:35 AM
Isn't it strange that when that pinnacle (cor's 145 yds) is reached, you can't get any further? I'm at about 130-140 yds w/ 8 different reels n rods.So regardless of what i'm throwing I get about the same.....but my buddy who is 6'7" n weighs close to 300 can smoke my butt and he never practices! He just throws as hard as he can! So Cor I reckon we need more lead i our ####!
A stronger rod that releases its energy faster, will cast further, everything else being the same. When you use a rod that is too strong for the caster, that caster will not get more distance and will probably try harder, leading to a bigger chance of a blow up. Also when using a rod too strong for the caster to load, accuracy suffers first!
Lets remember that we are talking about fishing. Nothing makes you more frustrated than watching your bait go sailing off into the sunset while its lips are falling to the water with a hook in it. There is a proper rod reel combination for everything, that is why my wife feels I have too many rods and reels.
Ron