Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Came across this guy who builds jigs and seems to be clued in to the West Coast fishery. Haven't bought any yet, but the jigs look good in the pictures, what are your thoughts.  Bill

https://pontchartrainjigs.com/

Hey Bill,

Everybody and their brother is starting a mom and pop vertical jig company in the USA.  Pretty much all Chinese product.  If they don't say anything about an original design or get the terminology a bit wrong, it is usually a Chinese buy and resell. Some are pretty close copies of the hard to get and expensive Japanese brands, and some are just some weird shaped stuff nicely  wrapped in holo foil and clear coated.

Ponchatrain is also selling plastic poppers. I doubt some mom and pop are injection molding their own lures.  My guess is not their own designs. I don't recognize the jigs as copies of famous brand models, but I am not a vertical jig groupie.  You can always contact them and ask whether they drew up their own designs or "selected" some if you are curious.

Having said that, it doesn't matter too much on who makes the jigs, as long as they use a hard alloy and they have pilfered a good design.  The big and small brands all seem to have a mediocre reputation for holding onto finish well (not that it matters much to the fish ). If these guys have a good rep for delivering product and catching fish, and you can get them for a good price... parts is parts.

Not a fan of swivels in place of assist cord on the rigged lures, but I am not a jumbo tuna chaser.

-J

Repackaged China made knockoffs, their "speed jigs" are pure plagiarization of a Jigging Master product.

With the popularity rising in slow pitch jigging lately people are trying to make advantage of a market with little distribution of quality jigs from overseas, so they get whatever from Aliaba & eBay and call it their own.

I've worked with the cheap stuff and the real deal and just from productivity alone there's just no comparison. Seafloor Control, SeaFalcon, Jigging Master, and Deepliner (some of the designs being copied) have put in years of research & testing of design, materials, and performance, that others have not, and from my experience that makes all the difference in the world.

Quote from: the rockfish ninja on April 05, 2022, 09:35:13 PMRepackaged China made knockoffs, their "speed jigs" are pure plagiarization of a Jigging Master product.

With the popularity rising in slow pitch jigging lately people are trying to make advantage of a market with little distribution of quality jigs from overseas, so they get whatever from Aliaba & eBay and call it their own.

I've worked with the cheap stuff and the real deal and just from productivity alone there's just no comparison. Seafloor Control, SeaFalcon, Jigging Master, and Deepliner (some of the designs being copied) have put in years of research & testing of design, materials, and performance, that others have not, and from my experience that makes all the difference in the world.

[Skipping the moral aspects of knockoffs for this post, and focusing on effectiveness]

While there are definitely some garbage jigs out there, I have to respectfully disagree with with the premium stuff vs everything else position. First of all, it is nearly impossible to differentiate based on materials for vertical jigs.  All hard lead jigs will be practically identical in density at about 92-95% of the density of unalloyed lead, which is the cheapest material to use, but can bend and dent.  So materials will not meaningfully affect action, especially if the jig is hard lead.

My own experiments in tweaking vertical jig designs have convinced me that minor dimensional changes do not have a effect on action. It takes a very visible change in shape to make a difference in action. Very different than the situation with hardbait mods. So any hard lead knockoff that is a reasonably close dimensional match for the original is going to perform the same.

I could be wrong, but I would be shocked if any of the esteemed vertical jig brands went though real R&D efforts, like leveraging fluid dynamics modelling to create product that performed within predefined specifications, and then went out and performed controlled fishing tests against competing products in a variety of conditions.

More likely, some guy cooked up a unique looking jig with an iteration or three of tuning.  After word of mouth/promotion garnered some attention, a product line was filled out, and presto-change-o, a new jig company is born.

There is always demand for the new "hot" lure, but few stand the test of time. Maybe our unborn grandkids will be fishing the original Seafloor Control Gawky, like we are fishing today with the Salas 6xJr model that Grandpa fished 50 years ago, but those are some pretty long odds.

It is also hard when fishing relatively infrequently to avoid confirmation bias in terms of evaluating the relative productivity of lures.  The first thing you have to do with a hot lure is to switch it out to find out what is not working.  Who does that, especially if you are getting out once a week or less?   Not doubting what folks may be observing, just whether it is statistically significant.

Your resident contrarian,

-J

My take on the knock off jigs, first is the hardware, is it stout or will it pull out of the jig. Second is those little differences in shape that give it a slightly different action.  Some days the fish are on fire and will eat every jig, some days they have lock jaw and won't touch a thing, then the days when a couple guys are doing well and the rest not so much, those are the days when it could matter.  I know with surface iron some swim and some don't.the little differences are what give it that little kick that gets the fish to eat it instead of just following it.  Maybe save a few bucks on the knock-off and they could be fine or not

Quote from: jurelometer on April 06, 2022, 04:14:05 AM

Quote from: the rockfish ninja on April 05, 2022, 09:35:13 PMRepackaged China made knockoffs, their "speed jigs" are pure plagiarization of a Jigging Master product.

With the popularity rising in slow pitch jigging lately people are trying to make advantage of a market with little distribution of quality jigs from overseas, so they get whatever from Aliaba & eBay and call it their own.

I've worked with the cheap stuff and the real deal and just from productivity alone there's just no comparison. Seafloor Control, SeaFalcon, Jigging Master, and Deepliner (some of the designs being copied) have put in years of research & testing of design, materials, and performance, that others have not, and from my experience that makes all the difference in the world.

I could be wrong

That, I agree with.

You can go on with a long winded contrarian debate but I'm not going to sift thru all that, too much to read to try to get a simple statement.

You might want to do some research on the mfgs I mentioned and the subject of slow pitch jigging (which these are knockoffs of) before trying to dissect this.

Here's a link that might help you get started to understand these jigs better.

https://www.anglers-secrets.com/slow-pitch-jigging/


I base my views on this subject from years of results, as I have been doing this method *exclusively* for almost a decade, and am probably the most experienced at this in the SF bay area.

My 2 shiny coppers...

In the case of the site listed, I'd say 99% sure they're just buying Chinese jigs and possibly having them branded, or they'll show up completely generic and just say "200g" on the side. The "Pebble" jigs are a complete copy of the Shimano Ocea Pebble Stick, even extremely similar graphics.
The "Speed jigs" look a lot like the classic Jigging Master Fallings jig.

So. As to whether it makes a difference..........

For "mechanical jig"... I'm going to say largely no, as the action is probably 80% angler, 10% rod, 8% other factors like line weight and water conditions, 2% jig. My most successful jig is a cheap, soft, off-brand thing that doesn't look quite like any other jig I've tried before.
The overall shape of the jig makes an enormous difference to performance; small variations seem to do very little. I also don't think hardness is actually important - the way we rig for MJ means the jig never takes any load; if the jig gets bent and dented, oh well, more action? 

For SPJ, it gets more complicated. The primary action is in the "fall" and all else being equal, this is much more influenced by the shape of the jig and even small variations.
What I will give to the japanese originators is that they are actually doing R&D. They are out fishing their lures, and there is a feedback loop. It's probably not terribly scientific but their pro team anglers and sponsored charter skippers will be out fishing the lures almost every day, so the feedback probably has higher quality than "anecdotal".
This differs from the Chinese companies producing the lures, who, chances are, have never held a fishing rod, and have no intention to. They take a known successful product, copy it to a reasonable standard, and hope it sells by virtue of the low price.
Setting morals completely aside for a moment, a reasonably good quality copy of a "developed" jig will, to my mind, perform similarly.

Quote from: the rockfish ninja on April 06, 2022, 07:02:25 AM

QuoteI could be wrong

That, I agree with.

You can go on with a long winded contrarian debate but I'm not going to sift thru all that, too much to read to try to get a simple statement.

I think that the way that message boards are supposed to work is that you actually read the post that the other other person wrote before responding.  It makes for a more credible response.

QuoteYou might want to do some research on the mfgs I mentioned and the subject of slow pitch jigging (which these are knockoffs of) before trying to dissect this.

Here's a link that might help you get started to understand these jigs better.

https://www.anglers-secrets.com/slow-pitch-jigging/


I base my views on this subject from years of results, as I have been doing this method *exclusively* for almost a decade, and am probably the most experienced at this in the SF bay area.

You are making assumptions.  I did my research a long time ago. 

I have been designing and building lures for quite awhile now.  By using CAD/CAM  techniques, I was able to test the effects of minor and major variations of a couple of these new style jigs with some accuracy.  For science (not resale), I cloned a famous flatfall starting with nothing but a pair a calipers and a CAD program.  The final finished jig came out pretty close to exact in dimensions, weight and center of mass. Looks like exactly the same action to me, as well.  My experiments have led to my position that cloning these jigs fairly exactly is not very difficult, and small deviations in shape do not have much effect.

I do test/fish my jigs too. Lots more than some jigging "experts" (which I make no claim to be).  The pandemic shut me down for awhile, but I was out bouncing this baby today:




What I need to learn much more about are the nuances of actually fishing the jigs. But so far, the folks that I have bumped into in this corner of the world are either not that experienced, annoying self proclaimed experts, or both

Quote from: boon on April 07, 2022, 01:09:13 AMMy 2 shiny coppers...

In the case of the site listed, I'd say 99% sure they're just buying Chinese jigs and possibly having them branded, or they'll show up completely generic and just say "200g" on the side. The "Pebble" jigs are a complete copy of the Shimano Ocea Pebble Stick, even extremely similar graphics.
The "Speed jigs" look a lot like the classic Jigging Master Fallings jig.

So. As to whether it makes a difference..........

For "mechanical jig"... I'm going to say largely no, as the action is probably 80% angler, 10% rod, 8% other factors like line weight and water conditions, 2% jig. My most successful jig is a cheap, soft, off-brand thing that doesn't look quite like any other jig I've tried before.
The overall shape of the jig makes an enormous difference to performance; small variations seem to do very little. I also don't think hardness is actually important - the way we rig for MJ means the jig never takes any load; if the jig gets bent and dented, oh well, more action? 

For SPJ, it gets more complicated. The primary action is in the "fall" and all else being equal, this is much more influenced by the shape of the jig and even small variations.
What I will give to the japanese originators is that they are actually doing R&D. They are out fishing their lures, and there is a feedback loop. It's probably not terribly scientific but their pro team anglers and sponsored charter skippers will be out fishing the lures almost every day, so the feedback probably has higher quality than "anecdotal".
This differs from the Chinese companies producing the lures, who, chances are, have never held a fishing rod, and have no intention to. They take a known successful product, copy it to a reasonable standard, and hope it sells by virtue of the low price.
Setting morals completely aside for a moment, a reasonably good quality copy of a "developed" jig will, to my mind, perform similarly.

Well said, and mostly agree.  That product feedback loop you described is actually textbook anecdotal   My tests indicated that what I would call small variations did not affect action, but we would probably have to agree on a definition of a small variation. 

-J

I didn't mean to stir up the hornets nest.  With a 3 day bluefin trip coming up I was looking for some knife (?) jigs and liked what I saw.  I will admit I know next to nothing about that kind of fishing.  The link provided gives much more information than I can digest in one sitting but I will make it through.  Maybe I should just stick with fly lines and dropper loops.  Bill

Quote from: Bill B (Tarfu) on April 07, 2022, 03:25:34 AMI didn't mean to stir up the hornets nest.  With a 3 day bluefin trip coming up I was looking for some knife (?) jigs and liked what I saw.  I will admit I know next to nothing about that kind of fishing.  The link provided gives much more information than I can digest in one sitting but I will make it through.  Maybe I should just stick with fly lines and dropper loops.  Bill

Bill if you want them then buy them! I have several knockoff jigs I plan on fishing in a couple weeks. As long as they're through-wired you'll be good to go.

If I see any Rip Rollers you want me to pick them up for you?

Thank you for the offer brother...let me wait to hear your report before I buy anything.  Bill

Quote from: jurelometer on April 07, 2022, 02:21:47 AM

Quote from: the rockfish ninja on April 06, 2022, 07:02:25 AM

QuoteI could be wrong

That, I agree with.

You can go on with a long winded contrarian debate but I'm not going to sift thru all that, too much to read to try to get a simple statement.

I think that the way that message boards are supposed to work is that you actually read the post that the other other person wrote before responding.  It makes for a more credible response.

QuoteYou might want to do some research on the mfgs I mentioned and the subject of slow pitch jigging (which these are knockoffs of) before trying to dissect this.

Here's a link that might help you get started to understand these jigs better.

https://www.anglers-secrets.com/slow-pitch-jigging/


I base my views on this subject from years of results, as I have been doing this method *exclusively* for almost a decade, and am probably the most experienced at this in the SF bay area.

You are making assumptions.  I did my research a long time ago. 

I have been designing and building lures for quite awhile now.  By using CAD/CAM  techniques, I was able to test the effects of minor and major variations of a couple of these new style jigs with some accuracy.  For science (not resale), I cloned a famous flatfall starting with nothing but a pair a calipers and a CAD program.  The final finished jig came out pretty close to exact in dimensions, weight and center of mass. Looks like exactly the same action to me, as well.  My experiments have led to my position that cloning these jigs fairly exactly is not very difficult, and small deviations in shape do not have much effect.

I do test/fish my jigs too. Lots more than some jigging "experts" (which I make no claim to be).  The pandemic shut me down for awhile, but I was out bouncing this baby today:




What I need to learn much more about are the nuances of actually fishing the jigs. But so far, the folks that I have bumped into in this corner of the world are either not that experienced, annoying self proclaimed experts, or both

Quote from: boon on April 07, 2022, 01:09:13 AMMy 2 shiny coppers...

In the case of the site listed, I'd say 99% sure they're just buying Chinese jigs and possibly having them branded, or they'll show up completely generic and just say "200g" on the side. The "Pebble" jigs are a complete copy of the Shimano Ocea Pebble Stick, even extremely similar graphics.
The "Speed jigs" look a lot like the classic Jigging Master Fallings jig.

So. As to whether it makes a difference..........

For "mechanical jig"... I'm going to say largely no, as the action is probably 80% angler, 10% rod, 8% other factors like line weight and water conditions, 2% jig. My most successful jig is a cheap, soft, off-brand thing that doesn't look quite like any other jig I've tried before.
The overall shape of the jig makes an enormous difference to performance; small variations seem to do very little. I also don't think hardness is actually important - the way we rig for MJ means the jig never takes any load; if the jig gets bent and dented, oh well, more action? 

For SPJ, it gets more complicated. The primary action is in the "fall" and all else being equal, this is much more influenced by the shape of the jig and even small variations.
What I will give to the japanese originators is that they are actually doing R&D. They are out fishing their lures, and there is a feedback loop. It's probably not terribly scientific but their pro team anglers and sponsored charter skippers will be out fishing the lures almost every day, so the feedback probably has higher quality than "anecdotal".
This differs from the Chinese companies producing the lures, who, chances are, have never held a fishing rod, and have no intention to. They take a known successful product, copy it to a reasonable standard, and hope it sells by virtue of the low price.
Setting morals completely aside for a moment, a reasonably good quality copy of a "developed" jig will, to my mind, perform similarly.

Well said, and mostly agree.  That product feedback loop you described is actually textbook anecdotal   My tests indicated that what I would call small variations did not affect action, but we would probably have to agree on a definition of a small variation. 

-J

TBH I'm just not going to read thru paragraphs from someone who's not fully versed on the subject, especially if it's a long tedious roundabout way to call me a liar, and copying a flat fall, the previous and less refined generation of these jigs from 20 yrs ago, doesn't really qualify much as "research". As this thread shows, the knockoff makers in China do that every day.

If you took the time to read up on the subject of SPJ, the link I provided, and the mfgs I suggested, you should end up with a deeper knowledge and wider view on this.

All I was doing is pointing you to the water, it's up to you to drink.

Well anyway thanks for the posts on this. A healthy debate, spiced with some ego, and I get to learn some stuff where there was a big knowledge gap before.
I'd prolly go for the cheap jigs first, until I start to succeed, then look for the better quality and more expensive ones. It's to painful to lose expensive stuff. Can't help but think that dressing the SPJ's up a bit might make them more effective when they are fished that "slowly".

Hey Ninja,

The thing that I like about this place is that the many of our members are willing to respectfully debate on fishing topics.  It rarely devolves into a personal feuds. 

The personal stuff is poison, as it drives folks to the sidelines that would otherwise contribute.

Once more for the record, I have long ago read up on  the site that you have mentioned, the vendor sites, and others. I have played with some of what you refer to as the modern designs, but admit to buying the clones that have a reputation for accurate reproduction.  I think it is valid criticism to say that I have not fished with enough different models to make any sweeping assertions, but that is sort of besides the original point of this thread.

Disagreeing with someone's position on the merits (e.g., best materials vs all the same materials, anecdotal vs experimental observations) should be fair game in my view.  Rudeness, not so much. 

Feel free to fire away at the MERITS of anything I post (I appreciate being shown where I am wrong - I learn at your expense ), or ignore.  Your choice.

BTW- the "annoying self proclaimed experts" comment was referring to the way-too-many wannabee USA "jigging influencers" out there.  My apologies if you thought I was referring to anyone in particular.

Hopefully we can bury the hatchet here.

-J

Quote from: jurelometer on April 07, 2022, 05:21:45 PMHey Ninja,

The thing that I like about this place is that the many of our members are willing to respectfully debate on fishing topics.  It rarely devolves into a personal feuds. 

The personal stuff is poison, as it drives folks to the sidelines that would otherwise contribute.

Once more for the record, I have long ago read up on  the site that you have mentioned, the vendor sites, and others. I have played with some of what you refer to as the modern designs, but admit to buying the clones that have a reputation for accurate reproduction.  I think it is valid criticism to say that I have not fished with enough different models to make any sweeping assertions, but that is sort of besides the original point of this thread.

Disagreeing with someone's position on the merits (e.g., best materials vs all the same materials, anecdotal vs experimental observations) should be fair game in my view.  Rudeness, not so much. 

Feel free to fire away at the MERITS of anything I post (I appreciate being shown where I am wrong - I learn at your expense ), or ignore.  Your choice.

BTW- the "annoying self proclaimed experts" comment was referring to the way-too-many wannabee USA "jigging influencers" out there.  My apologies if you thought I was referring to anyone in particular.

Hopefully we can bury the hatchet here.

-J

Accepted, and yes that statement I felt was (in)directed toward me, but please understand the SPJ "influencers" are people like me and Benny Ortiz (the foremost angler in this field in the USA, and the guy that got me started in this several years ago).

I'm not here to fire away at the merits of anything you or anyone here posts, all I do is share the knowledge I've gained from being dedicated to SPJ *exclusively* for several fishing seasons. You've seen my reports over the years, it's all I do.

As my olive branch, this is my collection right now, if you want to know about any of them and how they've performed for productivity, and their use in different current conditions, just ask.





PS - As for learning the subtleties of how to work these jigs more effectively, the angler secrets site has tons on that, also look up Benny Ortiz on youtube. He's done some tutorials, and they're in english, both he & I had to learn from videos from Japan that seldom had english subtitles.