Local tackle shop got in some Bates bait caster reels, they are made from a solid block of aluminum.and have 20 pound drag. They look well made and would be a great bay reel here on Long Island, N.Y. Any body have any input on them?
They sound like..uh..solid reels man! I'm not familiar with them ,hopefully someone will respond send pics if you can.
I am also on the lookout for a better saltwater low profile, so I did a quick check.
Look up Seaborn Outfitters. The company seems to have two names. No address, but if you lookup the phone number, it is linked to a PO box in Celina Texas.
I get nervous when a new small company sells many products (like multiple lines of rods and reels), doesn't say anything about where the products are manufactured, doesn't appear to have an actual brick and mortar headquarter or manufacturing facility.
If the reels are not well described, if there are no schematics, if there is no mention of replacement parts...
Also do they demonstrate competence in the subject matter in their promotional material?
It is easy to get in the rod and reel business simply by placing an order of sufficient quantity with a Chinese manufacturer. If you want to use different parts or your own design, the cost goes up. It is easy and cheap to get into the junk side of the business, but quality product is also possible with enough investment, expertise, and quality control.
This company sells a variety of rods, baitcasting reels, fly reels, and a very inexpensive spinning reel.
The video was not impressive: "specialized copper" (maybe he means bronze?), and describes anodizing as "an electrically charged fusion of color" ???
I have been fishing a well regarded cast aluminum low profile levelwind (Okuma Komodo) that I have put through the wringer at very high drag settings, and have busted or worn out several parts, but the frame and sideplates are fine. A low profile reel does not put much load on the frame. I personslly would not pay a premium for a barstock frame. The rest of the parts are more important, and I couldn't find out anything about the actual reel internals in the Bates. If you look through the threads here, you will see that all brands of saltwater low profile levelwinds are fairly high maintenance if fished hard, so parts availability should also factor heavily into the equation.
So maybe these folk are making a good product, but there are more than a few warning signs. I would at least call them before plunking down close to $300 for a baitcaster.
Just my opinion...
-J
The machining on display looks incredible. The photo on their site of the frame emerging from a lump of barstock is pretty amazing:
(https://batesfishingco.com/cdn/shop/products/IMG_20221017_084246_650.jpg)
At the same time, they do have a slight hint of "is this a shelf reel?" to them. Especially the spinner, which looks incredibly generic with a screen-printed logo. I'll have a dig around certain websites and see if I can find a suspiciously similar clone.
EDIT: The spinner is almost certainly a shelf reel. Therefore they are presumably working with one or more chinese factories. This is not, in any way, to say it's not a good product; if they provide strict specifications and hold the manufacturer to them then China can produce perfectly good reels.
At this stage I can't find an identical reel to the baitcaster on the usual sites where you tend to find them, though.
If you compare the two reels pictures, side-by-side the Seaborn and Bates reels (minus print logos) they look the same. Specs are slightly different.
https://seabornoutfitters.com/products/salty-150-baitcaster-reel?variant=42063886680229
https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/bates-fishing-the-goat-baitcast-reel?hvarAID=shopping_googleproductextensions&ds_e=GOOGLE&ds_c=BPS%7CShopping%7CPMax%7CFishing%7CGeneral%7CNAud%7CNVol%7CNMT&gclid=CjwKCAjwxOymBhAFEiwAnodBLPsRvMAYGyUv-iZ1UZqe5lTyeT1JUp4tWRQUy4rzfhVknd4K-EAbEhoC3DoQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Opps!, I didn't realize they were the same outfit.
26" line retrieval with 7:1 gears .......
Quote from: jurelometer on August 15, 2023, 10:32:46 PMI am also on the lookout for a better saltwater low profile, so I did a quick check.
Look up Seaborn Outfitters. The company seems to have two names. No address, but if you lookup the phone number, it is linked to a PO box in Celina Texas.
I get nervous when a new small company sells many products (like multiple lines of rods and reels), doesn't say anything about where the products are manufactured, doesn't appear to have an actual brick and mortar headquarter or manufacturing facility.
If the reels are not well described, if there are no schematics, if there is no mention of replacement parts...
Also do they demonstrate competence in the subject matter in their promotional material?
It is easy to get in the rod and reel business simply by placing an order of sufficient quantity with a Chinese manufacturer. If you want to use different parts or your own design, the cost goes up. It is easy and cheap to get into the junk side of the business, but quality product is also possible with enough investment, expertise, and quality control.
This company sells a variety of rods, baitcasting reels, fly reels, and a very inexpensive spinning reel.
The video was not impressive: "specialized copper" (maybe he means bronze?), and describes anodizing as "an electrically charged fusion of color" ???
I have been fishing a well regarded cast aluminum low profile levelwind (Okuma Komodo) that I have put through the wringer at very high drag settings, and have busted or worn out several parts, but the frame and sideplates are fine. A low profile reel does not put much load on the frame. I personslly would not pay a premium for a barstock frame. The rest of the parts are more important, and I couldn't find out anything about the actual reel internals in the Bates. If you look through the threads here, you will see that all brands of saltwater low profile levelwinds are fairly high maintenance if fished hard, so parts availability should also factor heavily into the equation.
So maybe these folk are making a good product, but there are more than a few warning signs. I would at least call them before plunking down close to $300 for a baitcaster.
Just my opinion...
-J
Daiwa Lexa T-wing version is the new gold standard. 8)
Quote from: RUSTY OLD COLT on August 15, 2023, 06:59:56 PMLocal tackle shop got in some Bates bait caster reels, they are made from a solid block of aluminum.and have 20 pound drag. They look well made and would be a great bay reel here on Long Island, N.Y. Any body have any input on them?
If you think anyone on Earth is producing a better product than Abu, Daiwa, Okuma or Shimano I got news for you: There is no free lunch. You should need STRONG motivation to go outside the giants to buy a reel. This includes knowledgeable analysis of the quality of the components and an established repair center history.
What the top makers provide in terms of value, quality and product/parts support over time cannot be matched by anyone this community has never heard of....don't take a flier on obscure Chinese junk. It never pays off.
Quote from: johndtuttle on August 30, 2023, 02:58:19 AMQuote from: jurelometer on August 15, 2023, 10:32:46 PMI am also on the lookout for a better saltwater low profile, so I did a quick check.
Look up Seaborn Outfitters. The company seems to have two names. No address, but if you lookup the phone number, it is linked to a PO box in Celina Texas.
I get nervous when a new small company sells many products (like multiple lines of rods and reels), doesn't say anything about where the products are manufactured, doesn't appear to have an actual brick and mortar headquarter or manufacturing facility.
If the reels are not well described, if there are no schematics, if there is no mention of replacement parts...
Also do they demonstrate competence in the subject matter in their promotional material?
It is easy to get in the rod and reel business simply by placing an order of sufficient quantity with a Chinese manufacturer. If you want to use different parts or your own design, the cost goes up. It is easy and cheap to get into the junk side of the business, but quality product is also possible with enough investment, expertise, and quality control.
This company sells a variety of rods, baitcasting reels, fly reels, and a very inexpensive spinning reel.
The video was not impressive: "specialized copper" (maybe he means bronze?), and describes anodizing as "an electrically charged fusion of color" ???
I have been fishing a well regarded cast aluminum low profile levelwind (Okuma Komodo) that I have put through the wringer at very high drag settings, and have busted or worn out several parts, but the frame and sideplates are fine. A low profile reel does not put much load on the frame. I personslly would not pay a premium for a barstock frame. The rest of the parts are more important, and I couldn't find out anything about the actual reel internals in the Bates. If you look through the threads here, you will see that all brands of saltwater low profile levelwinds are fairly high maintenance if fished hard, so parts availability should also factor heavily into the equation.
So maybe these folk are making a good product, but there are more than a few warning signs. I would at least call them before plunking down close to $300 for a baitcaster.
Just my opinion...
-J
Daiwa Lexa T-wing version is the new gold standard. 8)
Recently bought a (non-T-wing) Lexa 400. Haven't fished it yet. IMHO, the T-wing looks a bit "much" to me. It would have to cast a lot better to be worth the extra complexity. The only person that I have talked to that has fished both styles of Lexa has said not much casting difference. I actually avoided the T-wing when looking for a Lexa. I would be curious to hear from folk that have fished both.
I don't like the non-synchronized levelwinds like the Lexa (and the Shimao Tranx). But I'm going to give it a try.
Something like the Okuma Komodo (non-disengaging levelwind), but with a beefier eccentric mechanism would be my ideal. I will sacrifice a few feet of casting distance for a levelwind that doesn't wear out too fast under load.
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on August 30, 2023, 06:24:09 AMQuote from: johndtuttle on August 30, 2023, 02:58:19 AMQuote from: jurelometer on August 15, 2023, 10:32:46 PMI am also on the lookout for a better saltwater low profile, so I did a quick check.
Look up Seaborn Outfitters. The company seems to have two names. No address, but if you lookup the phone number, it is linked to a PO box in Celina Texas.
I get nervous when a new small company sells many products (like multiple lines of rods and reels), doesn't say anything about where the products are manufactured, doesn't appear to have an actual brick and mortar headquarter or manufacturing facility.
If the reels are not well described, if there are no schematics, if there is no mention of replacement parts...
Also do they demonstrate competence in the subject matter in their promotional material?
It is easy to get in the rod and reel business simply by placing an order of sufficient quantity with a Chinese manufacturer. If you want to use different parts or your own design, the cost goes up. It is easy and cheap to get into the junk side of the business, but quality product is also possible with enough investment, expertise, and quality control.
This company sells a variety of rods, baitcasting reels, fly reels, and a very inexpensive spinning reel.
The video was not impressive: "specialized copper" (maybe he means bronze?), and describes anodizing as "an electrically charged fusion of color" ???
I have been fishing a well regarded cast aluminum low profile levelwind (Okuma Komodo) that I have put through the wringer at very high drag settings, and have busted or worn out several parts, but the frame and sideplates are fine. A low profile reel does not put much load on the frame. I personslly would not pay a premium for a barstock frame. The rest of the parts are more important, and I couldn't find out anything about the actual reel internals in the Bates. If you look through the threads here, you will see that all brands of saltwater low profile levelwinds are fairly high maintenance if fished hard, so parts availability should also factor heavily into the equation.
So maybe these folk are making a good product, but there are more than a few warning signs. I would at least call them before plunking down close to $300 for a baitcaster.
Just my opinion...
-J
Daiwa Lexa T-wing version is the new gold standard. 8)
Recently bought a (non-T-wing) Lexa 400. Haven't fished it yet. IMHO, the T-wing looks a bit "much" to me. It would have to cast a lot better to be worth the extra complexity. The only person that I have talked to that has fished both styles of Lexa has said not much casting difference. I actually avoided the T-wing when looking for a Lexa. I would be curious to hear from folk that have fished both.
I don't like the non-synchronized levelwinds like the Lexa (and the Shimao Tranx). But I'm going to give it a try.
Something like the Okuma Komodo (non-disengaging levelwind), but with a beefier eccentric mechanism would be my ideal. I will sacrifice a few feet of casting distance for a levelwind that doesn't wear out too fast under load.
-J
Abu Revo Toro Beast has the highest quality components there, but you may have to live with early replacement regardless.
These reels punch above their weight in general but not every component has been upgraded for saltwater fishing. Very impressed with the strength of the twing watching Matty fish them (youtube pelagic pursuit).
Quote from: johndtuttle on August 30, 2023, 03:01:02 AMQuote from: RUSTY OLD COLT on August 15, 2023, 06:59:56 PMLocal tackle shop got in some Bates bait caster reels, they are made from a solid block of aluminum.and have 20 pound drag. They look well made and would be a great bay reel here on Long Island, N.Y. Any body have any input on them?
If you think anyone on Earth is producing a better product than Abu, Daiwa, Okuma or Shimano I got news for you: There is no free lunch. You should need STRONG motivation to go outside the giants to buy a reel. This includes knowledgeable analysis of the quality of the components and an established repair center history.
What the top makers provide in terms of value, quality and product/parts support over time cannot be matched by anyone this community has never heard of....don't take a flier on obscure Chinese junk. It never pays off.
Theres a lot of logic to your stance. But dismissing any newcomers as a matter of course stifles the industry. I'm open to anything new if it checks all my boxes. My only strong argument for sticking to the established brands is continued parts availability. But that isn't even a guarantee anymore with the ones listed above.
Penn, Okuma, Diawa and Shamano are all known manufactures that mahe quality reels with similar reels in the same price range. I have a Okuma Komodo, have worked the Diawa and Shimano low profile reels. As of now I think my preference would be #1 Penn, #2 Okuma, #3 Diawa....I no longer recomend Shimano reels due to their marketing and parts philosophy. Spending hundreds of dolars on a reel that parts become obsolete in 5 or so years is foolish no matter how nice they are. I do not need another $400 paperweight.
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on August 30, 2023, 04:12:51 PMQuote from: johndtuttle on August 30, 2023, 03:01:02 AMQuote from: RUSTY OLD COLT on August 15, 2023, 06:59:56 PMLocal tackle shop got in some Bates bait caster reels, they are made from a solid block of aluminum.and have 20 pound drag. They look well made and would be a great bay reel here on Long Island, N.Y. Any body have any input on them?
If you think anyone on Earth is producing a better product than Abu, Daiwa, Okuma or Shimano I got news for you: There is no free lunch. You should need STRONG motivation to go outside the giants to buy a reel. This includes knowledgeable analysis of the quality of the components and an established repair center history.
What the top makers provide in terms of value, quality and product/parts support over time cannot be matched by anyone this community has never heard of....don't take a flier on obscure Chinese junk. It never pays off.
Theres a lot of logic to your stance. But dismissing any newcomers as a matter of course stifles the industry. I'm open to anything new if it checks all my boxes. My only strong argument for sticking to the established brands is continued parts availability. But that isn't even a guarantee anymore with the ones listed above.
No worries, my friend. You are welcome to experiment but one thing I have learned is that this is a numbers game. The people with the huge manufacturing numbers are able to provide the most value and reliability. Even Shimano with 5 years of parts are better than someone that arrived yesterday and may not be here tomorrow.
BUT, more power to you if you would like to give them a try and break down the reel for us! :d
Don't hold your breath. I speak about the concept in general.
The only modern reel I actually use anymore is my SP4000XGSW, but I'm not anti-modern. In fact as I attempted to say above, quite the opposite. There's just really nothing on the market in my budget range that grabs my interest. This "bates" reel is out of my price range.
But i too would love to live vicariously through the impartial review of this reel if anyone wants to rise to the challenge.
Quote from: jurelometer on August 15, 2023, 10:32:46 PM...I personslly would not pay a premium for a barstock frame. The rest of the parts are more important,
x2
Avet reels since their beginning were made from a solid aluminium bars and we all know their problems on the pinion gear, just because its made outta solid aluminium stock bar people think they can use double their advertised drag range, so the guys that would jump on these new brands of lowprofile reels will fish them like if they were better than their counterparts from shimano, penn, okuma, etc. hey but one of the reels its the GOAT, if the same company call its own product the GOAT it should be true.
Since these are made of Asian parts, mostly —-
And, there are only about 5 manufacturers that supply generic parts in China for fishing reels —- but likely around 150 various companies with neat names that all source their parts from these (5) firms. Including firms here in the US.
Reels are brought to the market based on availability of components, lowest bidder, sharp looks, and the chance for a quick profit.
All that changes is the colors, names, and a few plastic trim parts.
Parts will never be an issue —- just buy (2) of these reels.
With any reel manufacturer —- parts are of course important. Along with service shops, longevity, performance, and value.
The one thing missing in most of these "component assembler" new companies is the mindset that the successful reel makers of the past brought to us —- pride.
Pride in a product. Pride in a solid product with longevity built in. Pride in workmanship. Pride in a service network and parts availability. Pride in a good value. Pride in making a reel to last past a lifetime of fishing memories.
Not knocking this new product —- just relating 45 years of experience in nearly every brand and model of reel.
I hope it works well for those who choose to try it out.
Best, Fred
Quote from: johndtuttle on August 30, 2023, 06:32:41 PMbreak down the reel
Here's a video showing the internal gears - https://youtu.be/qBfqzSI7hyU
Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on August 30, 2023, 06:52:41 PMDon't hold your breath. I speak about the concept in general.
The only modern reel I actually use anymore is my SP4000XGSW, but I'm not anti-modern. In fact as I attempted to say above, quite the opposite. There's just really nothing on the market in my budget range that grabs my interest. This "bates" reel is out of my price range.
But i too would love to live vicariously through the impartial review of this reel if anyone wants to rise to the challenge.
The current generation Shimano Spheros SW is an excellent case in point. There may be new spinning reels out there right and left but the bone crushing all-around excellence of this reel cannot be beat. It's just the complete package for the coin.
There are good reels below it (with less features) and better reels above it (with more features/higher quality solutions) but the balance of feature to benefits for the price is remarkable. This the value that we receive from a behemoth maker.
Back to the Bates Goat: if in fact it is all machined that is a benefit, surely. But what are the gear train alloys? The coatings on the level wind bits? Dose bearings yo'? Many of parts inside bait casters are as generic in form as imaginable, they all **look** the same on the inside with all the parts doing familiar jobs. It's the quality of the components and their engineering that matters.
Quote from: jtwill98 on August 31, 2023, 02:47:51 AMQuote from: johndtuttle on August 30, 2023, 06:32:41 PMbreak down the reel
Here's a video showing the internal gears - https://youtu.be/qBfqzSI7hyU
Absolutely nothing of note on the inside. I would be interested in wear on the line guide.
Revo Toro Beast has superior components and engineering on the inside. Shimano better sealing. Lexa best value for the coin. Komodo still probably the toughest but is otherwise not that exciting.
Put the Revo Toro Beast insides in this frame and then you would have the GOAT, imo, though these reels look solid but not exceptional on the inside (generic parts).
For the price, $299 and $325 respectively for the Bates and Seaborn, they are not cheap for a small baitcaster (150 size) that only holds enough line to catch a Kelp Bass or tell a story of getting spooled by a schoolie tuna. ;D
Quote from: jtwill98 on August 31, 2023, 02:47:51 AMQuote from: johndtuttle on August 30, 2023, 06:32:41 PMbreak down the reel
Here's a video showing the internal gears
Good find. Thanks for posting.
The guy was struggling a bit on the tech and materials, but at least give him credit for publicly displaying the internals of the product he is promoting.
Notice that there are backup ratchets in the reels, but I saw no dogs -eek! You can even see him spin the main shaft backwards. It looks like the sound was edited out when he was fondling the ratchet in the Bates model . Probably wondering out loud what the heck that ratchety part was for. ::)
An aluminum main gear (eek!) and aluminum main gear shaft (quadruple eek!) in the Bates, replaced with brass (half eek) and stainless in the Seaborn model.
The rest of the guts are the standard mostly plastic low profile design.
It is also strange that they went for this machined bar stock aluminum frame but had to have a foot held on by two tiny screws. Kind of negates the whole argument for a "rigid" bar stock frame, as the foot/frame junction is the where the load concentrates. My guess is that machining an integral foot was probably too difficult/costly. But in reality, the maximum load on a reel this small probably makes it a moot point beyond yet the salt corrosion issues.
I agree with John, and would be voting "nope" on this reel, especially at a premium price point.
-J
Thumbs down on the Bates. Aluminum gear and shaft—-no! Even though it's the FW version. Seems like it'ed be too weak. 2 nylon level-wind gears, one is good enough, if something jams the level-wind, I wouldn't wanna replace both. Didn't see the back-up dog either, but it's good to have one. I like the level-wind ball bearings to reduce friction there, but overall too many ball bearings that will slow down service time.
Seems like they designed it for weight savings/build expense at the cost of strength.