Finally got some time to put this together for all here. I will endeavour to add a TLD 20 or 25 mod to this thread as well, and also the TLD 2 speeds, but this concept shown here should work for all of these little workhorses.
Here I have a TLD 10 and 15 to show. Stripped down ready to mod. The reason I do this mod is to reduce the handle backplay for these reels. So the final result will be for alternating dogs. I guess if you had an aftermarket aluminium frame for these reels, you could drop in a synchronised dog, and confidently push the drag range for this reel. Sadly I personally will probably never have the opportunity to try this, as a Tiburon framed TLD would be a very rare reel in Australia.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_25_51_21248469.jpeg)
Tools needed are also shown here. 2mm drill. A piece of 3mm 316 stainless flatbar. The drive shaft A/R ratchet mock-up made from brass. Not hard to make with a little patience, and invaluable if you wish to do a fair few of these. The dog post. For the smaller TLD's, the basic dimensions I use is 3mm for the dog shaft, and a flange thickness of 0.5mm. The diameter of the base is about 7mm, and the anchoring post (which gets epoxied into the side plate) is 2mm in diametre and 3-4mm deep. There is a shade over 3.5mm of space to work with under the main drive gear.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_26_18_21250257.png)
With the bigger TLD's these posts will overall be a little larger.
I have also made a little scribe out of brass, whose flange is slightly larger in diameter than the post. This is to ensure you don't come up short with the radius to be scribed as a guide for final placement of the post. This will be your first step.....
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_35_37_212651900.jpeg)
You can then mark the spot to drill into the sideplate. I generally mark on the line from roughly the centre of the gear shaft, to centre of the sideplate screw hole at the bottom of this next pic (could be a little difficult to see)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_34_55_21263481.jpeg)
....and then add a couple of millimetres further around the arc
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_23_35_21242876.jpeg)
Once happy, you can now drill. I drill into the plate with a 2.5mm drill, and take it bit by bit, and test fit the post. You only want just enough depth of hole to take in the anchor post.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_42_28_21275527.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_25_21_21246379.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_14_19_212272322.jpeg)
Once your hole is just deep enough, you will need to rough the hole, and the surrounds up to get a good key for the epoxy/graphite powder mix to bond to. You can scuff up around and in the hole with sand or emery paper.....
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_35_53_212661084.jpeg)
Or could use a round file from a set of needle files
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_29_26_212561837.jpeg)
I like to use both. You will also need to try and scuff up the underside of the flange and anchor post. This is important. I have done another since this series of photos where I actually cut a very small groove into the anchor post, while I am making this piece on the lathe. A much better idea to get a good hold on the post.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_43_35_212781307.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_30_54_212591999.png)
Now I mix up some epoxy, and graphite powder to act as a filler.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_26_24_212512019.jpeg)
Fill the drilled hole, and prime the underside of the dog post with a smear of the epoxy mixture, and clamp down. Leave to cure for a couple of days.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_29_17_21255184.jpeg)
All cured and ready to fabricate the extra dog
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_39_08_21271336.jpeg)
Take some 3mm flat bar, and drill a 3mm hole to fit the post. Then start to rough out the shape of the dog. Make sure it will fit over the post and not rub on the inside of the gear chamber.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_24_19_212431246.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_37_45_2126795.jpeg)
Note the A/R ratchet mock-up tool (brass). This will help to determine the final length of your extra dog. Whether you want alternating (preffered) or simultaneous. As mentioned earlier, would probably only go the simultaneous option if you had a Tib aftermarket frame and were trying to squeeze more drag out of these reels.
In this case I have shown alternating. Mark roughly where you will trim the dog to length to be out of phase suitably with the original dog.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_23_23_21241568.jpeg)
Cut and then file to length to halve the backplay of the rachet.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_26_06_21249710.jpeg)
You then need to make the spring, and modify a small SS self tapper to act as a retainer. Note I have also drilled a hole in the dog to locate the end of the spring. In this case I have used some single strand SS trace wire for the spring. The hole for the spring leg appears to be oversize for this mod, and you are right for thinking this, I didn't have any 1mm drills left at this time, and this hole drilled was 1.5mm. It doesn't really matter too much, you can bend your spring wire to counter-act the extra clearance in this hole. The stainless self tapper has had its head filed down so it will fit under the gear when screwed down, and also had the head diameter reduced so as to give more room for the spring. Also file down the thread so there is only about 2.5-3mm under the head to screw into the side-plate.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_27_50_21254618.jpeg)
Work out where to drill the holes for the retainer, and the end of the spring that will sit in the sideplate. I wrap some tape around the drill shank at the depth I wish to have the hole at, so I don't end up drilling clean through the plate. Drill the holes as required.
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_24_35_21244821.jpeg)
Test fit the parts. You may have to file a little more off the diameter of the retainer screw, or off the end of the dog to give enough clearance so the dog rides over the outside diameter of the A/R ratchet. In this case, there was just enough space to clear, and provide smooth rotation of the crank.
To fit the original gear/ratchet you may have to use a piece of fine fishing line in order to be able to spring the new dog out to allow the gear to drop right in as shown in this thread....
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=7815.0
Once happy with the operation of the new dog, grease up the right side plate (bearings, original dog, etc) and the new parts
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_14_39_212281931.jpeg)
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_28_08_17_2_13_56_212251138.jpeg)
Fit the handle as soon as the crank gear is in, it will stop the dogs slipping off, and you having to start again with springing the new dog outwards. Try and keep some light pressure with your fingers on the back of the gear, until the handle is nipped up.
Finish assembling the rest of the drag quadrant, and lever/preset parts, and then marvel at how you have significantly reduced the handle back-play of your rugged little reel.
These are the TLD 10 and TLD 15 I did recently I did for a friend of mine
(http://alantani.com/gallery/21/10783_30_08_17_3_34_53_217581061.jpeg)
The aftermarket handles were purchased off ebay. The photo is not great, but the TLD 10 on the left also has another little extra. The drag quadrant was badly oxidised, so I took it upon myself to craft my mate a new one from 1.6mm stainless sheet. I was so impressed with how it looked, I made one for my TLD 5 in the thread linked above. I have an old TLD 25 sitting in my shed that has needed new bearings, and double dogging. I reckon it might get a flash new quadrant as well.
If anyone is interested, I will look into perhaps making a few of the A/R ratchet mock-ups, dog posts, scribes, and dog blanks to get you started with doing this for yourself or others. Send me a PM and we can take it from there.
I will add to this thread when I do my TLD 25.
Nicely done Rothmar2...
Those little reels are true workhorses. I'm Looking forward to more of your work!
Yes, I know I've said it before, you do some beautiful work ;D. Thanks for helping others here, if I had that reel I would take you up on it.
I should be getting one, I hear lots of good things about that reel and I really like what I see in it.
Sal
Very impressive Rothmar2
(http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb326/wallacewt/IMG_2350_zps536cb9a4.jpg) (http://s1200.photobucket.com/user/wallacewt/media/IMG_2350_zps536cb9a4.jpg.html)
on the right you can see the"tools" that rothmar2 sent me
to double dog the tld5,
once i understood where he was coming from it was simple
i only had to drill 2 holes,dog and spring
put it back together and the back play
is all but eliminated
thank you chris
(http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb326/wallacewt/IMG_2353_zps71f20a3b.jpg) (http://s1200.photobucket.com/user/wallacewt/media/IMG_2353_zps71f20a3b.jpg.html)
my dog on the left,original on the right.
tools
3/32 drill bit for the dog
a scribe for scoring the side plate
mock up 1/2 ratchet,so you can see what your doing
brass plug for holding stud while glue sets
drilled ss bar to make the dog
how good is this bloke
Great work rothmar - really impressive.
Looks like I'll be opening up my TLDs again before the summer's done.
I like that dog you fabricated too Wallace.
Cheers for sharing lads, Justin
Nice work.
Rgds
Mark
Well done Wallace. I like the spring and dog you have made as well. A better arrangement than what I originally came up with. I'm glad someone else has had a go at this and been able to add their twist to it.
Quote from: Rothmar2 on November 28, 2014, 12:48:25 PM
Finally got some time to put this together for all here. I will endeavour to add a TLD 20 or 25 mod to this thread as well, and also the TLD 2 speeds, but this concept shown here should work for all of these little workhorses.
Please take my money by selling a kit to do this for a TLD 25.
Thanks for your interest in this. The TLD 20 & 25's are a bit of a different deal in that the surface under the gear is not flat, but has webs. It would be possible to carefully build up a flat surface between two webs before proceeding with fitting the extra dog post as shown above.
It's been on my "to do" list for a while, but I've been too pre-occupied with Jigmasters the last couple of years.
Ask someone you might know who has a lathe and show them this thread, they should be able to knock up the posts for you, and should be able to shape a dog to suit.
If that's not possible, and you are prepared to wait, send me the right side plate, and I'll do the install for you, but bare in mind, I'm from Australia.
Thanks for showing me & the www that this PIA can be fixed. I'm going to attempt to tackle this myself. Thanks for the offer of doing it for me. I do love the sense of accomplishment I get when I improve things myself. I would have jumped all over a "kit" though. I'm wondering if any dogs and posts suitable for this are available for sale. The post obviously is "THE" challenge in this. I'll get it done one way or another. 🤓 #MadScientistMode
Sounds like a good project for my tld15. What kinda fabricating tools are needed for working the stainless flat bar?
Gfish
For those folks attempting this at home: The dog posts take on a large amount of force: There is a simple formula in this post that will allow you to calculate the amount of force for a given reel model/spool fullness/drag setting:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=17972.msg189832#msg189832
For a baja special reel in the post referenced above, we found 435 lbs of force on the dog post at 27 lbs drag, if the post is perfectly positioned. The delivery of force (similar to hammering on the side of the post), makes a successful upgrade of this nature even more difficult.
The TLD models I am familiar with have extra sideplate material to reinforce the area around the factory dog post . I think the two speed models use the pinion gear for the ratchet, which means less force ( no gear ratio multiplier), but also requires a good dog design that does not wear on the pinion.
BTW, I am a big admirer of Rothmar's work. But I do think it is worthwhile to understand the forces involved before attempting this. Take into consideration the reel and drag setting you plan to fish, calculate the forces involved and see if you are still comfortable. And if you do it, make sure the workmanship is top notch (a la Rothmar). Don't just drill an oversized hole and fill it with a post and some five minute epoxy. Oh, and getting any adhesive to bond to nylon is tricky ("graphite" sideplates are actually nylon with glass and carbon fibers mixed in). It is worth testing a drop of the adhesive in a inconspicuous location to see how well it sticks.
I have one idea. What about making the flange on the post shaped to rest against the side of the gear pocket, thus distributing the load over a larger area, and making it more difficult for the post to be "wedged" out of position from angular load due to slop in the system?
Hope this helps,
-J
Quote from: jurelometer on April 02, 2017, 06:56:06 PM
I have one idea. What about making the flange on the post shaped to rest against the side of the gear pocket, thus distributing the load over a larger area, and making it more difficult for the post to be "wedged" out of position from angular load due to slop in the system?
Hope this helps,
-J
What about cutting the notches all the way around the "Dog Catcher" instead of installing a second dog? That is why there is so much roll back in the handle right?
(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j393/westozwayward/Mobile%20Uploads/photo_zps4310f631.jpg)
Quote from: Gfish on April 02, 2017, 05:02:11 PM
Sounds like a good project for my tld15. What kinda fabricating tools are needed for working the stainless flat bar?
Gfish
A hacksaw for cutting the SS flatbar, or an angle grinder with the thin 1mm cutting wheels. Files, good quality nickel files. A medium cut for roughing the shape down, and a quality set of needle files for doing the fine finish shaping.
For drilling the holes, use cobalt-moly drills, and slow drill chuck speed (around 250-350rpm for a 3mm drill), plenty of drilling lube, and feed fairly quick, but not too quick that you snap your drills. Stainless work hardens very quickly, it doesn't take too much rubbing for it to harden right up and you will then melt the tip of your drill. You will need a drill press, drilling stainless with a hand drill is a waste of time. You can use HSS drills, but the Co-Mo drills are tougher if you haven't drilled stainless before, and are worth the extra dollars IMO.
If you can do this mod, and shape your own dogs, then you can use these tools to shape many small parts. e.g. think SS clutch levers for Penns, your own cranks etc. You are only limited by your imagination, and willingness to put the time into making them. For my mind, it's worth the effort if at the end you have improved upon what you already have.
Jurelometer has valid points. The only use the reels that I have done these modifications to, are for fishing light line classes. Generally the TLD 5-15's I have done this to are only fishing a max drag of 10lb tops, (6-16lb line class) and there has been no issues with any of the post/dogs so far. Quality slow cure epoxy is a must, 5 minute will only let you down. The keying of the post and the post hole is critical.
Thanks, Rothmar. Love fabricatin stuff. That's a list with great detail. Gotta think about gettin a drill press. I agree, the TLD's aren't designed for 10+lbs. a drag, with that graphite frame.
Gfish
As per an earlier question, can anyone shed some light on why the anti-reverse ratchet has a large smooth section to it? Surely this part just slides backwards, meaning for a section of the handle's arc you have a whole lot of back-play/slop?
Quote from: boon on April 04, 2017, 04:07:46 AM
As per an earlier question, can anyone shed some light on why the anti-reverse ratchet has a large smooth section to it? Surely this part just slides backwards, meaning for a section of the handle's arc you have a whole lot of back-play/slop?
If you read the first post of this thread carefully, the brass AR ratchet is a "mock up" made by myself to help get alternating dog engagement timing. The "large smooth section" is there because I was lazy, and there was no need to finish filing a complete brass ratchet. It's only a "tool" I made to achieve this. Without it, it's difficult to get the timing you want, because the actual working AR ratchet, would be hidden under drive gear, as its part of the gear/shaft assembly. Does that help?
Edit - Look at Wallace's photo in post #4. You can see the AR cog is integral with gear/driveshaft. With the driveshaft fitted in the side plate, the extra dog will be completely hidden under the gear. If you had taken the time to open the link in the first post of this thread, to another TLD 5 thread I've done, and read that, you would have seen this in the photos posted in that thread. The information is all there, you just needed to have followed it through.
Quote from: Rothmar2 on April 04, 2017, 04:38:29 AM
Quote from: boon on April 04, 2017, 04:07:46 AM
As per an earlier question, can anyone shed some light on why the anti-reverse ratchet has a large smooth section to it? Surely this part just slides backwards, meaning for a section of the handle's arc you have a whole lot of back-play/slop?
If you read the first post of this thread carefully, the brass AR ratchet is a "mock up" made by myself to help get alternating dog engagement timing. The "large smooth section" is there because I was lazy, and there was no need to finish filing a complete brass ratchet. It's only a "tool" I made to achieve this. Without it, it's difficult to get the timing you want, because the actual working AR ratchet, would be hidden under drive gear, as its part of the gear/shaft assembly. Does that help?
Edit - Look at Wallace's photo in post #4. You can see the AR cog is integral with gear/driveshaft. With the driveshaft fitted in the side plate, the extra dog will be completely hidden under the gear. If you had taken the time to open the link in the first post of this thread, to another TLD 5 thread I've done, and read that, you would have seen this in the photos posted in that thread. The information is all there, you just needed to have followed it through.
Ah!! I missed that as well. I was thinking the brass AR ratchet AKA "Dog Catcher" was the stock piece.
Quote from: Rothmar2 on April 04, 2017, 04:38:29 AM
Quote from: boon on April 04, 2017, 04:07:46 AM
As per an earlier question, can anyone shed some light on why the anti-reverse ratchet has a large smooth section to it? Surely this part just slides backwards, meaning for a section of the handle's arc you have a whole lot of back-play/slop?
If you read the first post of this thread carefully, the brass AR ratchet is a "mock up" made by myself to help get alternating dog engagement timing. The "large smooth section" is there because I was lazy, and there was no need to finish filing a complete brass ratchet. It's only a "tool" I made to achieve this. Without it, it's difficult to get the timing you want, because the actual working AR ratchet, would be hidden under drive gear, as its part of the gear/shaft assembly. Does that help?
Edit - Look at Wallace's photo in post #4. You can see the AR cog is integral with gear/driveshaft. With the driveshaft fitted in the side plate, the extra dog will be completely hidden under the gear. If you had taken the time to open the link in the first post of this thread, to another TLD 5 thread I've done, and read that, you would have seen this in the photos posted in that thread. The information is all there, you just needed to have followed it through.
Fair cop, when I looked at Wallace's pic I could have sworn it had the rounded back side too, I guess the brain sees what it is expecting to sometimes.
I'm sure I've seen a ratchet gear in this style before on a reel somewhere, although I can't think of any particular wisdom for it (other than, as you say, test fitting).
Actually I remembered where I've seen it. Daiwa SL30SH - the smooth area isn't as large but it does have an irrregular ratchet gear for some reason.
here is the pic I PM'd you about
I have rebuilt the original post for this thread, since the photobucket saga, as I know there is a member who may have need for this thread to complete his modification. Such a shame with the passing of Wallace that we may have lost his twist on doing this modification. I feel the way he made the extra dog spring was an improvement on my original post. His pictures were a valuable addition to this thread.
I will attempt to re-build the linked post in this thread ASAP (TLD 5 Modifications) as it contains information relevant to this thread.
Well we have had a rainy couple of days and I've caught up servicing some reels so I thought that I would give this a go with one of my TLD 15's. Rothmar2 was very kind and sent me a kit to give this a go. It went well but is not as easy as double dogging a penn 113H and 114H. Drilling and gluing the "peg" was not hard esp with the parts provided by R2. Forming the dog went OK and it works well but not finished as professionally as R2 but it holds great. I had a bit of an issue getting the spring right and getting it to fit and clear everything but I got it and it works just fine. I used wire leader for the spring. If you do this you will have to use the fishing line trick to pull the dog over when you put in the gear (see R2's thread). It went together just fine and it now has a much more aggressive sound with the new dog clicking which I like (sounds like my penns). I added two thicker bellevilles that Alan sent me and now the drag curve is better for my fishing (I did this to my TR 2000 also). Here are a couple of pics . Note the dog looks better in real life than in the picture (same as me ;D)
I should have added that the back play in the handle is almost non existent now. What a huge improvement. I will do my other TLD 15 in the future. I would like to do this to the TR 2000 but the side plate is much different (has ridges and is not flat) and thinner so I put that off for now but I will look at it again and see if it looks doable.
Cheers:
Todd
Cool Beans HB! It might just be the photo, but the only issue I could see with your work, is the contact point on the dog with the A/R teeth. It looks like the dog face is not contacting the root of the A/R tooth, you may have to just file the dog contact face just a touch to angle it back a little so the point of the dog gets right into the base of the A/R cog. I had an issue with one of my earlier attempts at this and found the dog could slip up, and thus be in-effective, if it wasn't getting right into that corner. I hope this makes sense?
Also, in the spirit of the Ohana, for those over on your side of the Pacific who would like to attempt this, contact Hardy Boy to get access to the tools I sent him. I did send a couple of extra dog posts, not sure if he has used them all or not. Either way, they are not hard to make, and neither are the dogs. I have since made more fitting tools for myself over here.
It appears to be strong in my testing but the fitment is not 100% perfect (close but not perfect) so I will give it a touchup file. Thanks again. I will do another reel or two. If some one would like the tools please shoot me a pm.