I'm going to conduct some rather intensive testing with Boca Orange Seal ABEC7 ceramic bearings vs. stock Abu Garcia bearings. I've been in extensive contact with them and have decided on 4 reel formats: 1 of my refurbished 10000CL's, a 7000 CS Pro Rocket, a Morrum M3600C, and a Revo STX-SHS. I'll be doing 5 casts each with 4 different weights; appropriate for the reel size.
I know I'm probably opening a can of worms here; but all I've heard is how good, or how not so much better Boca's are from stock. ABEC5 vs. ABEC7. Ceramic vs stainless steel. Lube vs. dry. On and on. I've watched YouTubes, ad nauseum showing reels with the bearing replaced with Boca's and the dramatic difference in free spool spin time. Problem is; I'm one of these really un-American people who likes cold hard facts. Obviously; with this discipline, there is no absolute science to the outcome. You can argue variables to the cows come home. Wind speed. Wind direction. Spool brake. Line - mono / braid, as well as manufacturer. Type of reel - manufacturer. So; this isn't going to be forensically accurate, but it's going to be better than replacing bearings and spinning an empty spool. That's not how I fish. I'm looking for consistency.
When I rebuilt my first 2 10000CL's, I used the ABEC7 Orange seals. But; added their "Lightning Lube". Noticeable improvement; but that much money??? I got a 3rd 10000CL that was like new - only 20+ years old with some pretty tarry grease in it. It outcast the Boca's by 20-40 feet! Holy $4!t! I spoke to Jeff at Boca, and we were both in agreement that the comparisons should be made by a single reel of each category. He also suggested running my bearings buck naked - no lube, and no seals. So I disassembled the 2 completed; removed the seals, used alcohol in an ultrasonic cleaner for 30 minutes, cleaned the bearing insert, and let 'er rip. I nearly fainted. OK; not really; but I cast over the tops of 2 (BIG) trees 3 houses down the road. So; I went from a casting distance of 120-140 feet to somewhere near 900 feet. Call me crazy, but I consider that significant. Bear in mind; that was with a 3oz sinker on a 10000 spool.
My party package arrived on Friday with the remaining bearings. Unfortunately; this weekend was so windy; that I wasn't going to consider it. And; I have an early morning flight out Monday. But; when I arrive home the following week - assuming the environmental conditions are acceptable; I'm going to let it rip. I've gained usage and filming permission from the local school board to use the football field.
What I'd greatly appreciate from any of you is; your opinion(s), experience(s), and any other ideas that may keep this from becoming a finger pointing exercise. Variables. Techniques. Anything that you can think of to ensure that this experiment remains on a level playing field (no pun intended) - OK; maybe a little pun intended, but I want this to be serious, fair and accurate as possible for all.
Boca has been good enough to supply quite a few bearing for testing, but the end result is going to be the unvarnished truth. The entire process will be filmed.
Come on; I know you have your thoughts - share them!
Thanks in advance!
My thought is that ABEC7 and ceramics are an unneeded waste in a reel.
Well; Mark, we're going to find out. Problem is; all I've seen and heard until now are rumors, speculation, and opinions. That's exactly why I'm going to be spending several thousand dollars for a professional filming / editing crew to document the outcome. You can alter facts; but you can't alter uncut video. Yes; I'm going to clip out the dead time, but the casts; measurements, and results will not be altered. I don't have a dog in this fight - except to find out best bang for the buck. Yeah; based on what I'd seen on YouTube - not to mention my short experience was that they may be some better, but at what cost for what gain? When I performed the suggestions, per Jeff; the results were dramatic. Is it going to be consistent? Dunno. Is it going to be more dependent on various other factors? Dunno. There's only so many manufacturers and variables that I can throw into the mix before the results are self-defeating. If there's a better way to build a mouse trap; I'm the one who's going to find it.
Same as mark. I've always considered stainless steel abec 5's to be optimum.
Thanks Alan. I'd done a previous upgrade to one of my STX-SHS's with a kit with the new pliers and an ABEC5 uplift. Couldn't beat the cost. I did the ABEC7 upgrade on another STX-SHS, and "in the house" I'm seeing very little difference between the two. Deal is; the lake is a totally different environment. That's where I want to see the difference. So, I'm doing this on a football field? Again; the environmental conditions can make or break the case. But; the only really accurate comparison - in all fairness to both parties - is to conduct the tests as fair and accurate as possible in a controlled environment.
In the end; there may be so little difference, that it's a nonentity. Particularly when you account for varying winds (sustained - buffeted) on a lake. Not to mention wind direction. Again; it's not going to be forensically accurate, but I want to see if there is a clear, consistent demonstrable difference that justifies the exceptional cost.
I've heard plenty of arguments for and against Abec 7 bearings. From what I have gathered (reading forums and asking around) is that they don't really make you cast farther as much as they allow you to cast the same distance with far less effort. Granted, I haven't tested this myself to see if it is true or not. However, what I would be most interested in is how much differently Boca Abec 7 bearings perform vs cheaper Chinese Abec 7 bearings?
Earlier this year I sold a Curado 200dhsv to a gentlemen on Craigslist. Upon meeting him he promptly pulled some reels out of his car and showed me their exceptionally long free spool spinning. He went on about how much improved the casting on his reels were with the Abec7 bearings, and then informed me that all these bearings are bought from the same place (China) and you can save a bunch of money by skipping the middle man and just buying straight from China. After listening to this I went home and bought six abec7 bearings for $30 from a Chinese seller. I'm not sure what you paid for your Boca bearings, but $30 for six abec7 bearings seemed cheap compared to what I have seen most going for. So I installed two of these bearings in my Curado 300dsv and the free spool greatly improved. It spun at least twice as long as it had with the stock bearings. Anyways, what I'm getting at, assuming any of my ramblings makes sense considering I have had a couple of cocktails, is whether or not Boca bearings are worth the price they are asking for them.
Wow! great undertaking on your part Jim. Looking forward to seeing the results.
The only testing I have done is direct observational comparisons on small spool bearings isolated from spools.
My observations agree with yours regarding the old ABU spool bearings. Spin time is considerably greater than the current generation. I think they used quality Swedish bearings in the old reels.
I will also be interested to see the outcome regarding ABEC 7 bearings although Japanese bearings may be more revealing.
I exclusively use Japanese bearings for spool servicing. My comparisons reveal that several Chinese brands I have tried so far are VASTLY inferior products although U$5 for a Chinese bearing is very expensive so maybe not in your case Jenx.
The thing is that the quality of Japanese product is so superb that ABEC 7 is the de-facto standard for any Japanese bearing. Yet they provide incredible free-spin time from my limited tests and observations.
Good luck in your quest.
~
I look forward to reading your ultimate results as casting is a very important aspect to me. Personally I've tried a lot of things to improve my casting distance and accuracy but only once tried the Boca Yellow Seal bearings. My conclusion was "too expensive for any possible benefit"
I honestly think that casting, can't be a method to test bearings for reasons you already state quote " You can argue variables to the cows come home. Wind speed. Wind direction. Spool brake. Line - mono / braid, as well as manufacturer. Type of reel - manufacturer. So; this isn't going to be forensically accurate, but it's going to be better than replacing bearings and spinning an empty spool."
I think your objective therefore should be to test if replacing stock reel bearings with Boca Yellow Seal will improve your casting distance? Perhaps I can answer that for you.....No it won't or not noticeably so unless the stock bearings are realy bad.
It may make the reel spin faster, or make the reel feel smoother. What we do if the reel spins faster, we use our thumb more to slow it down, or we use thicker oil on the bearings or stronger cast control?
A final comment, a 10% improvement in casting distance is a very big gain but very difficult to measure because your cast is inconsistent and perhaps 5 casts is not enough to calculate an average.
I found the best improvement in casting was achieved by using a correctly balanced rig for my ability and strength as I could then use the rods sweet spot to cast consistently well.
Good luck and enjoy this exercise.
you can make a reel spin as fast as you want, if it goes out of control (which is what happens when it spins too fast) then you gain no distance only a crows nest. I would speculate that you may see some minor gains (if you can manage not to fluff the casts) with light weights. Also, if a reel has a level wind I fail to see how a super fast spinning bearing will make a difference, the level wind will simply negate it. If your reel is spinning nice and smoothly, you have a decent aluminium spool and you are not using climbing rope for line I reckon the only dramatic change to distance you will make is to learn a better casting technique and buying another rod
I feel confident that the free spin time of a bearing (put on the end of a pencil and spin it) is correlated to casting distance. ABEC-7 bearings are somewhat more likely to perform well than ABEC-5 bearings. The ABEC rating system specifies tolerance limits in manufacture. However, the ABEC rating is not necessarily related to the free spin time. There is a lot of variation in free spin time in bearings with the same ABEC rating. There is a lot of variation in the same model bearings from the same manufacturer and same supplier. There is less variation in ABEC-7 bearing than ABEC-5 bearings, but the best ABEC-5 bearing from a ten-pack may be better then the worst ABEC-7 bearing from a ten pack.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on October 23, 2017, 10:25:57 AM
I feel confident that the free spin time of a bearing (put on the end of a pencil and spin it) is correlated to casting distance. ABEC-7 bearings are somewhat more likely to perform well than ABEC-5 bearings. The ABEC rating system specifies tolerance limits in manufacture. However, the ABEC rating is not necessarily related to the free spin time. There is a lot of variation in free spin time in bearings with the same ABEC rating. There is a lot of variation in the same model bearings from the same manufacturer and same supplier. There is less variation in ABEC-7 bearing than ABEC-5 bearings, but the best ABEC-5 bearing from a ten-pack may be better then the worst ABEC-7 bearing from a ten pack.
-steve
I reckon unless you are a master caster that can smoothly cast a wildly spinning reel you are not going to get any benefits in distance from abec 5 to 7. People put super fast ceramic bearings in then have to either thumb the reel more or apply more mag force. If you are already thubing your reel in the cast with abec 5 I feel to see how abec 7 is going to get you a longer cast.
Quote from: Jenx on October 23, 2017, 03:35:33 AM
I've heard plenty of arguments for and against Abec 7 bearings. From what I have gathered (reading forums and asking around) is that they don't really make you cast farther as much as they allow you to cast the same distance with far less effort. Granted, I haven't tested this myself to see if it is true or not. However, what I would be most interested in is how much differently Boca Abec 7 bearings perform vs cheaper Chinese Abec 7 bearings?
Earlier this year I sold a Curado 200dhsv to a gentlemen on Craigslist. Upon meeting him he promptly pulled some reels out of his car and showed me their exceptionally long free spool spinning. He went on about how much improved the casting on his reels were with the Abec7 bearings, and then informed me that all these bearings are bought from the same place (China) and you can save a bunch of money by skipping the middle man and just buying straight from China. After listening to this I went home and bought six abec7 bearings for $30 from a Chinese seller. I'm not sure what you paid for your Boca bearings, but $30 for six abec7 bearings seemed cheap compared to what I have seen most going for. So I installed two of these bearings in my Curado 300dsv and the free spool greatly improved. It spun at least twice as long as it had with the stock bearings. Anyways, what I'm getting at, assuming any of my ramblings makes sense considering I have had a couple of cocktails, is whether or not Boca bearings are worth the price they are asking for them.
Your "ramblings" echo several other posts that I've read on other venues and online searches, so it makes perfect sense. Whether or not there's any difference is a different study for a different day. That's the kind of information I'm looking for.
For the time being; I just want to see what (if any) consistency there is to the claims of increased casting distance. I've seen videos claiming that, but never one showing the real results in feet. t's going to be interesting. Even the difference I saw - although huge - wasn't measured in feet, or under controlled conditions.
Quote from: Cor on October 23, 2017, 05:30:54 AM
I look forward to reading your ultimate results as casting is a very important aspect to me. Personally I've tried a lot of things to improve my casting distance and accuracy but only once tried the Boca Yellow Seal bearings. My conclusion was "too expensive for any possible benefit"
I honestly think that casting, can't be a method to test bearings for reasons you already state quote " You can argue variables to the cows come home. Wind speed. Wind direction. Spool brake. Line - mono / braid, as well as manufacturer. Type of reel - manufacturer. So; this isn't going to be forensically accurate, but it's going to be better than replacing bearings and spinning an empty spool."
I think your objective therefore should be to test if replacing stock reel bearings with Boca Yellow Seal will improve your casting distance? Perhaps I can answer that for you.....No it won't or not noticeably so unless the stock bearings are realy bad.
It may make the reel spin faster, or make the reel feel smoother. What we do if the reel spins faster, we use our thumb more to slow it down, or we use thicker oil on the bearings or stronger cast control?
A final comment, a 10% improvement in casting distance is a very big gain but very difficult to measure because your cast is inconsistent and perhaps 5 casts is not enough to calculate an average.
I found the best improvement in casting was achieved by using a correctly balanced rig for my ability and strength as I could then use the rods sweet spot to cast consistently well.
Good luck and enjoy this exercise.
Very good points. I chose five casts each because I'd imagine that the strength used to cast, as well as my accuracy is going to begin to vary after much more than that. I think that will provide enough comparison for a "yea" or "nea". Bottoms line is: How close are the sum totals when all of the tests are completed. Given the previous statement - not to mention the work involved to change out the bearings; this will likely be a several day exercise.
I don't know if I'm that interested to compare manufacturers. Chinese vs. Japanese, etc. I have it by pretty good authority that Boca is an importer, not a manufacturer; so how many variations do you try? Being that I'm not a structural engineer; what would be the most accurate and reliable manufacturing process. They all have ways to put a spin on it to make their own products sound better. This is just morbid curiosity.
OK; I'm running behind and have to catch a flight. A few observations from the living room... On the Revo STX; the ABEC 5 bearings actually outspun the 7's by a hair. However; both outspun the stock beearings in my 3rd STX by a mile. Both sets felt far more smooth in spinning and retrieving line that I'd pulled out; or simply cranking the handles. Bears watching.
Several years ago I did a lot of experiments with various Abec grade bearings. To cut a long story short Abec 7 made no difference. In fact some of the bearings were so tight on tolerances that the bearings were slower (with regard to free spool time). Ceramic bearings, Abec 5, certainly improved casting distance provided they were dry - oiling them slowed them down. I have just 2 reels (now) with ceramic bearings - One is a centre pin reel (you guys may call it a mooching reel). The full ceramics on this one work because of the minimal start up inertia, the spin time while impressive (>5mins) is not so important. The reel is primarily used for (long) trotting on a river - where the current pulling on a float (bobber) pulls line off the reel with minimal resistance. Given a fairly straight stretch of water with fairly slow flow - the float can be fished at 30-50yds.
The other reel fitted with ceramic bearings is an Akios Sportcast Shuttle (a top quality Abu rip off). This reel was used in my attempt at casting competitions and for UK beach casting. Equipped with 12lb line and casting 5oz of lead with a borrowed 15ft rod I did manage to break the 200yd barrier a couple of times. I decided competitions of this sort were not for me.
Standard stainless Abec 3 or 5 bearings will be fine for most forms of fishing. I buy loads and simply select the best spinning ones - they are frequently not the most expensive. Abec 7 means tighter tolerances not necessarily longer distance in the cast. If your using a baitcaster, with disengaging level wind, ceramics may help with light weight lures. But most baitcasters (at least mine) the level wind is permanently engaged which will decrease spool speed and spin time. Spool control (magnetic, centrifugal or thumb) will also reduce distance but help with birds nests - it's a trade off to make fishing (casting) more bearable.
Save your money for other upgrades - just my 2 cents.
For the average angler that is trying to get more distance I would maintain that his/her casting technique has more to do with distant gains than any bearing. Once the casting technique is mastered and the professional is trying to get those few extra yards, then maybe a faster bearing would help. My 2 cents. Also, I thought I read somewhere that the only benefit to faster bearings occur when the angler is using lighter weight lures etc, something to do with the startup inertia or something. Time for more coffee....
Very interesting, but Abec 7's are for fresh water use only was my understanding.
So I wouldn't be using them anyway.
A film crew? Wow, will you adopt me? I need some extra dough to play with. ;)
I'm not so well versed on these bearing upgrades, But I'd have to be concerned about running a bearing dry, especially in saltwater. I guess it would be fine if the whole bearing was ceramic...but aren't the races steel? Also...how the heck do ya keep it dry? I'd have to think water entering the bearing would slow those ceramic marbles the same way oil does. :-\
There are full and hybrid ceramics. The hybrids have stainless races with ceramic balls. The ceramic balls are harder, smoother and rounder than steel. Full ceramics have ceramic races as well as ceramic balls.
Rancan - the Abec rating has nothing to do with fresh or salt water. For a problem free bearing, in the salt, full ceramics have a lot of advantages. They won't corrode, they are very fast and smooth and need little attention - apart from an occasional flush to remove crud. I wouldn't use them in a lever drag reel where axial forces come into play they could get crushed. The single biggest disadvantage is cost.
There seems to be some confusion over what the Abec rating means - I quote from Wikepedia:
The ABEC scale is an industry accepted standard for the tolerances of a ball bearing. It was developed by the Annular Bearing Engineering Committee (ABEC) of the American Bearing Manufacturers Association (ABMA). The ABEC scale is designed to provide bearing manufacturers dimensional specifications that meet the standards of precision bearings in a specified class. Manufacturers who produce equipment that require bearings must also know the dimensional tolerances to design parts that will accommodate a bearing.
There are five classes from largest to smallest tolerances: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9. The higher ABEC classes provide better precision, efficiency, and the possibility of greater speed capabilities, but do not necessarily allow the components to spin faster. The ABEC rating does not specify many critical factors, such as load handling capabilities, ball precision, materials, material Rockwell hardness, degree of ball and raceway polishing, noise, vibration, and lubricant. Due to these factors, an ABEC 3 classified bearing could perform better than an ABEC 7 bearing. Bearings not conforming to at least ABEC 1 cannot be classified as precision bearings as their tolerances are too loose.
The scale also works as a guide for consumers to make informed decisions about the type of bearing they desire, despite not knowing factors related to materials, manufacturing, and performance.
High rated bearings are intended for precision applications like aircraft instruments or surgical equipment. Lower grades are intended for the vast majority of applications such as vehicles, mechanical hobbies, skates, skateboards, fishing reels and industrial machinery. High ABEC rated bearings allow optimal performance of critical applications requiring very high RPM and smooth operation.
The difference between an Abec 5 and 7 bearing is 1 micron in a 20mm bearing - naff all ;D But in terms of cost a no brainer imho.
I sell and install many of them for the baitcasting reels. Even some spinning and conventional reels like the TLD's. If thats what they want they get it. They do increase freespool times but thats all I do. I cant throw a baitcasting reel worth a hoot.
Um, yeah.... but y'all gotta keep in mind that ABEC this or that is just a stamp, only as good as the guy who put it there. The world is rife with cheap ABEC class marked bearings and it should be taken into consideration that not all of them are true.
(I wonder sometimes if some of their manufacturers even know what ABEC 5 means. Maybe they just put it on the package because someone told them to for some reason. Especially since ABEC is an American organization. Why would a cheap Asian manufacturerer bother to follow only an American standard?)
Robert - hence my point about buying cheaper and selecting the best ones.
Abec and it's European brother ISO 492 refer to tolerances not roundness of balls, pardon me, smoothness of races quality of steel/ceramic et al.
Folks you don't need $100 dollar bearings in a fishing reel when $5-10 bearings work just as well. A fishing reel ain't a challenging environment (except for salt :-\)
Some time ago I built a line spooler. The 8mm bearings I used were the cheapest I could find on fleabay (at the time I didn't even know it would work :D). Those bearings have done some miles - certainly more than the average reel will see, oh and they are still good (must remember to lube them some time :-\). Ok they don't see the salt BUT the Abec and ISO 492 standards don't talk about salt or water or crud just tolerances. The most expensive ain't necessarily the best for a fishing reel imho.
Sitting at the airport waiting on my connection.
All very valid points. I had the same thought about the tolerances being so tight that it could adversely affect the performance. Witness the previous observation about 5 vs. 7 spin time. In no way scientific, but curious nonetheless.
The bottom line of this long, shaggy hair dog experiment is that all I've seen is Boca this, Boca that. I want to convince myself that it's worth the money, and most importantly "Does this make a big enough difference to write home about.
I'm itching to see for myself.
Thanks!
I get most of mine overseas and would be glad to send you some.
Keith
Quote from: Robert Janssen on October 23, 2017, 04:40:15 PM
Um, yeah.... but y'all gotta keep in mind that ABEC this or that is just a stamp, only as good as the guy who put it there. The world is rife with cheap ABEC class marked bearings and it should be taken into consideration that not all of them are true.
(I wonder sometimes if some of their manufacturers even know what ABEC 5 means. Maybe they just put it on the package because someone told them to for some reason. Especially since ABEC is an American organization. Why would a cheap Asian manufacturerer bother to follow only an American standard?)
The Battle Against Counterfeit Ball Bearings:Counterfeit bearing trade has become a serious issue in recent decades.
New low-quality bearings are re-labeled with false brand markings and put into imitation packaging that appears identical to the real thing. Counterfeiters have become so skilled that it's almost impossible to detect a fake.
The counterfeit problem is estimated to be about 10% of bearing sales worldwide.
Fake bearings currently account for 60% of China's whole bearing trade.
To address the problems of counterfeit ball bearings, three major regional bearing associations founded the World Bearing Association (WBA) and the Anti-Counterfeiting Committee.
26 Tons of Counterfeit Rolling Bearings Found and Destroyed:https://lselectric.com/26-tons-of-counterfeit-rolling-bearings-found-and-destroyed/ (https://lselectric.com/26-tons-of-counterfeit-rolling-bearings-found-and-destroyed/)
www.stopfakebearings.com (http://www.stopfakebearings.com)
~
I compare bearing by the free spin time on a mandrel and then in a baitcaster using light jigs. The reel is tuned to for thumb-free casting with centrifugal or magnetic brakes and the wind coming from the side. It is done for convenience, but it also takes the unpredictable thumb control out of the equation.
I love full ceramic bearings run dry because they give the most distance and require the least amount of maintenance when the reel is routinely doused with saltwater. Hybrid ceramic run dry is second choice. Stainless run dry and replaced frequently third choice. Oiled stainless is last on the list although I guess chrome would be below that.
Of course, the trouble with full ceramic is that the bearings can cost almost as much as the reel. You cannot compare full ceramic to stainless by free spin time on the bench because they are lighter weight and do not have the same inertia. Full ceramic run dry is noisy. But, they do cast better.
There are guys in Asia selling bearings that have been hand selected from large lots of bearings for the best free spin time. You pay a premium price for them and have to wonder where the rejects are going.
-steve
Quote from: exp2000 on October 23, 2017, 05:44:12 PM
Quote from: Robert Janssen on October 23, 2017, 04:40:15 PM
Um, yeah.... but y'all gotta keep in mind that ABEC this or that is just a stamp, only as good as the guy who put it there. The world is rife with cheap ABEC class marked bearings and it should be taken into consideration that not all of them are true.
(I wonder sometimes if some of their manufacturers even know what ABEC 5 means. Maybe they just put it on the package because someone told them to for some reason. Especially since ABEC is an American organization. Why would a cheap Asian manufacturerer bother to follow only an American standard?)
The Battle Against Counterfeit Ball Bearings:
Counterfeit bearing trade has become a serious issue in recent decades.
New low-quality bearings are re-labeled with false brand markings and put into imitation packaging that appears identical to the real thing. Counterfeiters have become so skilled that it's almost impossible to detect a fake.
The counterfeit problem is estimated to be about 10% of bearing sales worldwide.
Fake bearings currently account for 60% of China's whole bearing trade.
To address the problems of counterfeit ball bearings, three major regional bearing associations founded the World Bearing Association (WBA) and the Anti-Counterfeiting Committee.
26 Tons of Counterfeit Rolling Bearings Found and Destroyed:
https://lselectric.com/26-tons-of-counterfeit-rolling-bearings-found-and-destroyed/ (https://lselectric.com/26-tons-of-counterfeit-rolling-bearings-found-and-destroyed/)
www.stopfakebearings.com (http://www.stopfakebearings.com)
~
Just damn!
Quote from: handi2 on October 23, 2017, 05:37:59 PM
I get most of mine overseas and would be glad to send you some.
Keith
I'll PM you when (if) I ever get to my motel tonight. I'll provide you my number, if you're in the US. Would like to discuss in detail. Thanks for the offer!
Soooo... The phone call isn't going to happen. I have to say that between Australia and Japan; I've gotten my coolest and most unique Abu gear.
Quote from: oc1 on October 23, 2017, 08:16:45 PM
I compare bearing by the free spin time on a mandrel and then in a baitcaster using light jigs. The reel is tuned to for thumb-free casting with centrifugal or magnetic brakes and the wind coming from the side. It is done for convenience, but it also takes the unpredictable thumb control out of the equation.
I love full ceramic bearings run dry because they give the most distance and require the least amount of maintenance when the reel is routinely doused with saltwater. Hybrid ceramic run dry is second choice. Stainless run dry and replaced frequently third choice. Oiled stainless is last on the list although I guess chrome would be below that.
Of course, the trouble with full ceramic is that the bearings can cost almost as much as the reel. You cannot compare full ceramic to stainless by free spin time on the bench because they are lighter weight and do not have the same inertia. Full ceramic run dry is noisy. But, they do cast better.
There are guys in Asia selling bearings that have been hand selected from large lots of bearings for the best free spin time. You pay a premium price for them and have to wonder where the rejects are going.
-steve
I've considered the full ceramics, but the price is through the roof. Most of my fishing is freshwater. But; considering the fact that I'd rather have the full ceramics in my big boys (x7) for pier / surfcasting distance, that would be out of the question. And; there again; is it worth the price for that much hardware? I'd be spending over $1000.00 just for bearings on reels that I only use 2-3 times a year. I can't make it pass the sanity test. Unless the noise makes the fish hungry!
Thanks!
The ABEC rating deals primarily with the geometery of a bearing. The inner and outer races have a tighter size tolerance, and the runout tolerance is tighter as well. None of that means anything if the shaft and housing arent made to the same tolerances. The reduction in runout will likely be a much smaller factor than the balance of the spool. The factor that matters most here would be the grade of balls used in the bearings, which is not directly a part of the ABEC grade. The more perfectly round the balls are, and the more closely they are matched to the rest of the balls in a bearing will determine how the bearing spins. This is where quality matters, and I recommend sticking to the major manufacturers when possible. Just to be clear, Boca is not a manufacturer.
Higher ABEC grade bearings can be tighter to spin than a lower grade, and likewise, high quality ABEC3 will be a better bearing than a low quality ABEC7. Anything higher than ABEC3 in the spool, and ABEC1 on non-critical bearings in a reel will see rapidly diminishing returns for their cost. There is simply no need for that level of precision.
I dont know that its always an option with fishing reel sized bearings, but Nachi ABEC3 bearings performed better than the chinese ABEC5 bearings that came on my milling machine spindle. For reference, industrial quality electrical motors usually have ABEC3 bearings, and ABEC5 and higher arent often seen except in machine tools and high precision equipment.
Very well put. I went to their North America site, but wasn't able to determine what would be the best for this type of application. Little help? Or; I can research it further.
After receiving the volume of information that I have; I think I put far too much emphasis on far too broad a research field. Definitely going to rethink the filming expenses, since by the time I'd tested every variable; I'd be $10,000.00 into costs that doesn't accurately represent every aspect. Not to mention; WAY more time than I'd budgeted.
I made a promise to Boca; and I'm going to follow through. But; you all have me curious about other manufacturers qualities, as well.
Wow. I really did open up a can of worms. Still looking forward to conducting the tests - if for no other reason; the experience.
Thanks. Keep those thoughts, ideas, and opinions coming! The bearing upgrades seem logical, but where's the jumping off point for cost vs. benefit? I haven't become "One with the reel" yet.
I thought Boca is only a distributor/retailer of bearings and such not a manufacture? Through my limited web search I could not find any info that they make their own bearings.
Also when you do your testing I hope you use the same rod and reel to test all the bearings. The slight variations in two different rods or reels, casting speed and how the rod tip loads and unloads can be enough to give you meaningful differences.
Quote from: oc1 on October 23, 2017, 08:16:45 PM
.................
I love full ceramic bearings run dry because they give the most distance and require the least amount of maintenance when the reel is routinely doused with saltwater. Hybrid ceramic run dry is second choice. Stainless run dry and replaced frequently third choice. Oiled stainless is last on the list although I guess chrome would be below that.
...................
-steve
Where I live everything that you buy in the rest of the world is expensive, so I decided to try using good quality chrome steel bearings. My reels generally don't get dunked and seldom get a lot of sea spray directly on them.
It was actually a pretty successful experiment as they lasted at least a year and were rather smooth. I did keep them well lubed though.
The ones that sit on the drive shaft, despite being rubber sealed, were the first to corrode!
PS Jim Dempsey, how sealed is rubber sealed? Something else to test when you get done with this one ;D
The only way the rubber seal could be a real seal is if it was contacting both the inner and the outer ring. If something is contacting both the inner ring and the outer ring simultaneously then it is creating drag and is slowing the bearing down. Keith noted one time that the orange seal is magnetic. Some weird material.
One good thing about the orange seal is that it is easy to remove without putting any pressure on the bearing and risking warping the cage. The bearings were not designed for any lateral pressure so any time you push the inner ring and outer ring in opposite directions (like when removing the shield) you risk damage. The cage doesn't have much substance and is easy to bend.
-steve
Quote from: SoCalAngler on October 24, 2017, 04:22:44 AM
I thought Boca is only a distributor/retailer of bearings and such not a manufacture? Through my limited web search I could not find any info that they make their own bearings.
Also when you do your testing I hope you use the same rod and reel to test all the bearings. The slight variations in two different rods or reels, casting speed and how the rod tip loads and unloads can be enough to give you meaningful differences.
Clearly; they are simply a distributor.
And; yes, I'll be using a Veritas Toro Winch 50-100lb line rated rod for the big reels, and a 14-30lb Villain for the small Morrum and low profile baitcasters. Same reels on all tests with the same line, spool, brake settings, etc. Only difference will be the bearings. I've already fine tuned the reels - to the best of my ability - by removing the factory lubricants, cleaning all parts in an ultrasonic cleaner, and lubing up with conservative amounts of Cal's grease and TSI-321 oil on the appropriate rolling and friction surfaces. That after polishing the surfaces. Bear in mind: I'll be using larger weights on the larger reels for obvious reasons. Somewhat smaller on the low profiles. If I hooked a 3oz sinker to an STX; all I'd see was my spool of line disappear; in all likelihood, with either set of bearings.
Regardless of your preference of lubricants; I don't think anyone can deny that either of these are a fair standard. Consistency of the test equipment and testing environments means more towards achieving a fair result.
Quote from: oc1 on October 24, 2017, 06:44:22 AM
The only way the rubber seal could be a real seal is if it was contacting both the inner and the outer ring. If something is contacting both the inner ring and the outer ring simultaneously then it is creating drag and is slowing the bearing down. Keith noted one time that the orange seal is magnetic. Some weird material.
One good thing about the orange seal is that it is easy to remove without putting any pressure on the bearing and risking warping the cage. The bearings were not designed for any lateral pressure so any time you push the inner ring and outer ring in opposite directions (like when removing the shield) you risk damage. The cage doesn't have much substance and is easy to bend.
-steve
The rubber seals in bearings often have a metal core to maintain their shape. They typically lock into the outer race, and either contact, or nearly contact the inner race with a typical lip seal profile. Your assumption is correct: the better the bearing is sealed, the more drag there will be on it. I suspect there is some variance between manufacturers in how tight the seals fit, so some may spin better while others may seal better.
Boca is a distributor, but I believe they are also an assembler. I think they "build" bearings from 3rd party components to cover their wide range of available styles. Given their lead times, I dont think that is done by their supplier, but rather special bearings assembled in the US from standard components from their supplier(s).
Assembling them themselves would let them achieve better QC too. They can measure the outer race, inner race and balls and assemble them to get the tolerances and ABEC rating they're looking for.
Having a little experience with their seals; I can say for certain that the orange rubber encapsulates a brass (or similar) metal support. If you remove one; the inside almost looks like it's notched where the bearing would ride against the metal. It looks like a tiny brass (or similar) ring inside the seal.
An interesting note: I ordered the wrong sized bearing early on and was going to exchange it. I'd already cleaned the bearings, lubed them with "Lightning Lube" and replaced the seals. When I realized that it was the wrong size; I put it back into the baggy. A week later; when I was going to exchange it; I was going to remove the seals to clean the bearings. No dice. It was like nail polish. Apparently; their lube is delivered via some petroleum distillate that evaporates quickly. But, not inside a baggie! I dug the seals out with an Exacto knife a little bit at a time. Bearings 1, Seal 0. Fearing that this may have happened to my other installed bearings, I removed them. All were pristine. Apparently there's just enough to deliver the lube that evaporates from a seal that's not 100% air tight. Freaked me out.
Mark I find that highly unlikely, I think Boca just buy in and resell bearings. For a company to perform quality control on a vast number of products is, in this day and age, not viable. Virtually every company employs quality assurance systems like ISO 9001 etc. That is they 'assume' the supplying manufacturer is telling the truth about their product - because they have a certificate that states it complies with blah blah. They never, or rarely, actually test the product. The only thing that is certified in a compliant company is the 'process' involved in manufacture. The 'product' is assumed compliant, to whatever standard, by virtue of their quality assured system. I may be biased but - when you deal with countries (CH springs to mind) that will print anything you want on a 'certificate' - well you know where I'm going.
When I was involved in the industry (Quality Control/ Assurance) quality meant 'fitness for purpose'. It did not mean luxury or this is better than that.
Probably another can of worms - but hey it's still bait ;D
Quote from: Jim Dempsey on October 24, 2017, 10:23:23 PM
Having a little experience with their seals; I can say for certain that the orange rubber encapsulates a brass (or similar) metal support. If you remove one; the inside almost looks like it's notched where the bearing would ride against the metal. It looks like a tiny brass (or similar) ring inside the seal.
An interesting note: I ordered the wrong sized bearing early on and was going to exchange it. I'd already cleaned the bearings, lubed them with "Lightning Lube" and replaced the seals. When I realized that it was the wrong size; I put it back into the baggy. A week later; when I was going to exchange it; I was going to remove the seals to clean the bearings. No dice. It was like nail polish. Apparently; their lube is delivered via some petroleum distillate that evaporates quickly. But, not inside a baggie! I dug the seals out with an Exacto knife a little bit at a time. Bearings 1, Seal 0. Fearing that this may have happened to my other installed bearings, I removed them. All were pristine. Apparently there's just enough to deliver the lube that evaporates from a seal that's not 100% air tight. Freaked me out.
You will find that the seals with the metal on the back are magnetic. They may have a coating on the metal.
The ceramic hybrid bearings I get from China are from the Hobby Bearing Store. I believe they sell on eBay too. I only get ones for the small baitcasting reels. 3x10x4, 4x10x4, 3x7x3, 8x12x3.5, and a few others.
I have used some 6x12x4 and 4x11x4 in some of the smaller TLD's but not anymore. I get the SS ones from Dawn.
I take care of at least a dozen inshore and kayak charter fleets. Their baitcasting reels have these ceramic hybrid bearings. Once a year they come in for service and the spool bearings are reused.
Here is a couple of pictures of his reels to show they get a lot of use.
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on October 24, 2017, 11:05:36 PM
Mark I find that highly unlikely, I think Boca just buy in and resell bearings. For a company to perform quality control on a vast number of products is, in this day and age, not viable. Virtually every company employs quality assurance systems like ISO 9001 etc. That is they 'assume' the supplying manufacturer is telling the truth about their product - because they have a certificate that states it complies with blah blah. They never, or rarely, actually test the product. The only thing that is certified in a compliant company is the 'process' involved in manufacture. The 'product' is assumed compliant, to whatever standard, by virtue of their quality assured system. I may be biased but - when you deal with countries (CH springs to mind) that will print anything you want on a 'certificate' - well you know where I'm going.
When I was involved in the industry (Quality Control/ Assurance) quality meant 'fitness for purpose'. It did not mean luxury or this is better than that.
Probably another can of worms - but hey it's still bait ;D
Not sure if I should even mention this; but in a conversation with a person from Boca; I was informed that they're in constant search of a company that will allow them to meet ISO 9001 and ANSI certification - which leads me to believe it ain't happened yet. I wish them the best. Nicest bunch of folks that have bent over backwards to help me - based on constructive criticism of all things. I've read a great deal; and received several PM's that laud their excellent customer service. That's exceedingly rare in this day in time. But; it don't cut it when performance counts. Sorry. Bottom line.
So; I can nearly assure you - knowing what I know about achieving ISO and ANSI cert; they DON'T have a hand in the QC of the product. My company has just achieved ISO and ANSI cert; so I know the sometimes ridiculous hoops you have to jump through to get there - AND maintain it. Subject to audit, of course... All foam and no beer. That being said; I would bet you dinner at Chez Paul in Chicago that they don't perform any "finishing touches" on the end product. If that were so; it would make more sense that they'd be the actual manufacturer. Caveat: I'm not trying to bust anybody's ball bearings!
I would like to say a hearty "Thank You!" from those who've sent me PM's with information they'd rather not reveal. It's a PM for a reason. Rest assured that it will remain so. That being said; I
will reveal a certain country that has been mentioned extensively: Japan. A couple of things: I travel to Japan fairly frequently. #1: They are the MOST hardcore fishermen I've ever met! Bar none. #2: Abu; et, al produce SP products strictly for Japan. No shocker there to those in the know. The coolest gear I have came from there (or Australia). #3: They are very disciplined about THEIR production quality. There are many Abu (and other) products that they absolutely will not buy, unless it was built to Japanese quality standards. (Go ahead; say what you will) #4: Most of them are not fond of Americans. We don't meet their work ethic. True.
What started out as an idea think tank; turned out to be a combination cat fight and a much more informative subject about something I know (knew) little about. Wow! so much information to research and confirm or dispel. Bottom line is: AGAIN - I'm a NOVICE fisherman! Better than 50% of the topics I've read about fine tuning reels had some specific mention of Boca Bearings. Nobody else. Is it truth, or is it hype? I'm out to form my own opinion, based on my fishing technique and roll with what works for me.
God; am I glad you guys approved my membership for this board! I've never met a better, kinder, more educated, open minded, and knowledgeable bunch of folks in 57 years! Although; I'm sure that you rue the day...
Let's keep rolling! Thanks!
Quote from: handi2 on October 24, 2017, 11:18:08 PM
Quote from: Jim Dempsey on October 24, 2017, 10:23:23 PM
Having a little experience with their seals; I can say for certain that the orange rubber encapsulates a brass (or similar) metal support. If you remove one; the inside almost looks like it's notched where the bearing would ride against the metal. It looks like a tiny brass (or similar) ring inside the seal.
An interesting note: I ordered the wrong sized bearing early on and was going to exchange it. I'd already cleaned the bearings, lubed them with "Lightning Lube" and replaced the seals. When I realized that it was the wrong size; I put it back into the baggy. A week later; when I was going to exchange it; I was going to remove the seals to clean the bearings. No dice. It was like nail polish. Apparently; their lube is delivered via some petroleum distillate that evaporates quickly. But, not inside a baggie! I dug the seals out with an Exacto knife a little bit at a time. Bearings 1, Seal 0. Fearing that this may have happened to my other installed bearings, I removed them. All were pristine. Apparently there's just enough to deliver the lube that evaporates from a seal that's not 100% air tight. Freaked me out.
You will find that the seals with the metal on the back are magnetic. They may have a coating on the metal.
The ceramic hybrid bearings I get from China are from the Hobby Bearing Store. I believe they sell on eBay too. I only get ones for the small baitcasting reels. 3x10x4, 4x10x4, 3x7x3, 8x12x3.5, and a few others.
I have used some 6x12x4 and 4x11x4 in some of the smaller TLD's but not anymore. I get the SS ones from Dawn.
I take care of at least a dozen inshore and kayak charter fleets. Their baitcasting reels have these ceramic hybrid bearings. Once a year they come in for service and the spool bearings are reused.
Here is a couple of pictures of his reels to show they get a lot of use.
Just in case you think I'm full of it; here's the photos that I sent to Boca:
Jim take a razor blade and remove the entire shield. The color of the metal on the shield is what I see on all of them. If there is writing on the side please show that too.
Thanks
The Japan reels I receive in for service are definitely built slightly different than the USA purchased reels. They do put in more effort.
I still have the "melted" shields. There is no writing on the orange coating of any of them - inside or out. Are you asking me to remove the rest of the orange to see if there's lettering on the metal inserts? If so; I'm not sure how to do it without possibly removing any lettering along with the rubber. That, assuming that I try to dissolve it with mineral spirits, or something similar. I'll try one; and if I don't see anything. I'll try a scalpel to shave through the remaining rubber in very thin increments.
Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you.
I was asking if there were any markings on the side of the outer race.
I'll double check, but I don't think so. I say that because, oddly enough; when I was removing a bearing from an older reel; it had a part number that traced back to a Boca ABEC5 stainless steel bearing (3x10x4). Only one of around 60 that I've handled, so far. I'll do another double check when I get back in town. I'll also look under varying lighting conditions because I barely noticed it.
Great subject. Can't wait to see the results a the tests.
Anyone got info. on the quality of bearing construction materials? I'm willing to pay more for durability, especially if there are products that have better corrosion risistance. There's always gonna be water particals gettin into any bearing, shielded, or not.
Gfish
The Revo line use the same size bearings, with few exceptions. Sanity tells me that you're really only going to see performance increases on the high speed bearings - IE: the spool bearings. However; they all also use a 3x10x4 "tensioner" bearing that the spool shaft rides in. Although tis not a direct support of the rotation of the spool shaft; it does ride inside of it. I'd think that replacing it would make little difference; but in theory; it could have a marginal effect.
Obviously; unless you have money to burn; replacing the levelwind bearings, shaft bearing, and knob bearings are a complete waste of time - performance considered. Feel free to disagree and comment. Too bad that the big boy reels don't have levelwind bearings! The worm gear actually spins on cast and can degrade casting distance considerably. At least; based on my observations, so far.
My query is: How many of you replace the tensioner bearing along with the actual spool bearings? Again; open opinions, suggestions - not trying to split hairs. Has anyone tried it both ways and appreciated any improvement / difference?
Thanks.
Quote from: Jim Dempsey on October 26, 2017, 04:43:45 PM
The Revo line use the same size bearings, with few exceptions. Sanity tells me that you're really only going to see performance increases on the high speed bearings - IE: the spool bearings. However; they all also use a 3x10x4 "tensioner" bearing that the spool shaft rides in. Although tis not a direct support of the rotation of the spool shaft; it does ride inside of it. I'd think that replacing it would make little difference; but in theory; it could have a marginal effect.
Obviously; unless you have money to burn; replacing the levelwind bearings, shaft bearing, and knob bearings are a complete waste of time - performance considered. Feel free to disagree and comment. Too bad that the big boy reels don't have levelwind bearings! The worm gear actually spins on cast and can degrade casting distance considerably. At least; based on my observations, so far.
My query is: How many of you replace the tensioner bearing along with the actual spool bearings? Again; open opinions, suggestions - not trying to split hairs. Has anyone tried it both ways and appreciated any improvement / difference?
Thanks.
Hi Jim, what are you refering to as in "tension bearing"?
The bearing on the side of the reel that adjusts the tension (brake) of the spool rotation.
What reel(s) will you be testing with?
Revo low profile bait casters.
Quote from: Jim Dempsey on October 26, 2017, 05:19:41 PM
The bearing on the side of the reel that adjusts the tension (brake) of the spool rotation.
So we're talking about the bearing at the end of the shaft vs the bearing in the spool?
Yes. It's a 3x10x4 like the left spool bearing.
If the level wind is permanently engaged I'm not sure you will see any difference :-\
Quote from: Jim Dempsey on October 26, 2017, 05:19:41 PM
The bearing on the side of the reel that adjusts the tension (brake) of the spool rotation.
Isat a copper lookin bushing that fits in the housing where the cast control cap screws on?
No.
In a Revo it is a carbon fiber friction plate instead of copper. There has to be something there to keep it properly shimmed and to prevent drilling a hole in the spool tension knob.
-steve
Steve,
Correct; but there's a 3rd bearing inside there. The spool has a bearing on each side. On a right hand retrieve; there's a 3x10x4 bearing in the left shaft housing where the magnetic brakes are, a 5x11x4 bearing held in place by a pin on the right spool shaft, and a 3rd bearing (3x10x4) inside the right housing where the thin end of the right spool enters the housing and makes contact with the adjustable spool brake. It's accessible under the brake tension cap.
Boca offers kits with just the 2 spool bearings, and another with 3 bearings that include the tensioner bearing. I'm just curious about how many consider that one a potential performance gain since part of the spool shaft spins inside it. I'm almost of the opinion, at this point; that it's not a big performance gain to swap it out. I guess that will just be a 3rd test to perform during the testing.
No.
Probably there mainly to keep the longer side(head plate) of the spool shaft from vibrating during casting & retrieving.
Quote from: Gfish on October 27, 2017, 02:23:35 PM
No.
Probably there mainly to keep the longer side(head plate) of the spool shaft from vibrating during casting & retrieving.
That passes the sanity test. Actually; a good idea. I guess I'll see if there's any difference with and without.
What model of Abu are you using? Does your reel have a disengaging pinion? If so the only bearings that are relevant to casting are the 2 spool bearings. It has a disengaging levelwind? When testing make sure the levelwind is in the same position (centered) for all the tests.
Yes; the Revo STX has a disengaging pinion, and stationary levelwind. Actually; all of the reels that I'm testing have a disengaging pinion, but the other levelwinds are controlled by the spool. I'll have to double check on the Morrum. But; yes; I'd already planned on centering it when casting.
I'd planned on doing this all this weekend; but was injured earlier in the week. It only takes a nanosecond of inattention to nearly cost you your life. For that matter; it very well could have. I'm a grateful man. A very sore one; but grateful! Now; we have sleet moving in, so it looks like the weather's a no-go, as well. I'm still going to try to do a few short videos on the installation of bearings, as well as one on cleaning and prepping a new reel out of the box.
Another sore subject with me. Abu slathers their internals with so much grease that it actually slows the action down. I'd compare it to running on a track as opposed to running through 10 inches of water - or 10 inches of mud! I suppose that they know that many people WILL NOT properly clean and maintain their equipment (don't get me on a rant!), so they pack as much in there as they can. Problem is; grease doesn't move - by and large. So, you wind up with a huge wad of tarry grease after a while.
Me? Yeah; I'm still green behind the ears; but if I'm going to spend $500.00 on an MGXtreme; I'm going to meet, or exceed their recommendations for maintenance. I freshwater fish - at least 1-2 times a week. Every day; if I'm in town. So; every 3 months or so; I do a component level breakdown of any reel that I use extensively; perform an ultrasonic cleaning; and apply a very conservative amount of TSI-321 and Cal's to the respective components. I keep all of my reels in neoprene covers; and my rods in sheathes. Call me silly; but when you drop close to 5 grand in a years time on fishing equipment; you by God take care of it!
Thanks!
That third bearing is just as important to maintain as the distal ones. I prefer reels that do not have/need them because the pin makes them fiddly to remove.
"Synchronized" levelwind they call them; the ones that do not disengage. OK for jigging or trolling, but not for casting.
Glad you're still with us Jim and make a speedy recovery.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on October 27, 2017, 08:11:22 PM
That third bearing is just as important to maintain as the distal ones. I prefer reels that do not have/need them because the pin makes them fiddly to remove.
"Synchronized" levelwind they call them; the ones that do not disengage. OK for jigging or trolling, but not for casting.
Glad you're still with us Jim and make a speedy recovery.
-steve
Thanks, Steve. Still learning the proper terminology. My 10000's, and 7000's have synchronized levelwind. I haven't had a chance to check the Morrum, but guessing by the size (3600); it's likely only on retrieve, like the Revo's.
It's a little un-nerving to wake up on the ground with medics over you cutting your clothes off, and hear one of them tell the dispatcher to put "Life Flight" on standby. Fortunately; just a few hairline breaks that should mend quickly. Left a lot of skin there, though. I think that hurts worse than anything! I wish I could brag some heroic story, but I was just not paying close enough attention.
Glad it wasn't worse !
Wow glad your ok :o could have been a lot worse!
what did we miss?????
Quote from: alantani on October 27, 2017, 11:50:23 PM
what did we miss?????
Alan,
You missed an old, overweight man step off a ladder 2 rungs from the ground too soon. I stepped into my Pelican case; tripped backwards, and while still trying to catch myself; tripped on a piece of conduit that was sticking out of the concrete. This caused me to fall onto a pipe retainer that was just high enough to cause me to flip backwards, and freefall ~6 feet onto a concrete / asphalt surface, landing primarily on my elbows (both with hairline fx's of the ulna's); my right hip / butt ( complete fx of the right hip wing), and lower back (fx's of 2 transverse processes of L-4, L-5). Left about 65% of the skin from my arms from the elbows to about 4 inches from the wrists. Superficial abrasions of my hip and lower back. Guessing that I passed out from the pain / shock trauma. Luckily; nothing in the head or C-Spine. Nothing internal. Very lucky! It sounds bad, but could have been much worse. By all rights; I should be trolling for sod trout.
I appreciate the concern and well wishes. Didn't mean to host a pity party for myself or hijack my own thread. I don't do opiates; so I'm trying to tough it out. Actually; I'm still partially functional. Very slow and whiney, though...
Forgot to mention: the Morrum is a retrieve only levelwind. Trying to line everything up for the first shoot sometime tomorrow. I'm going to be limited to reel cleaning and bearing installation for probably 2 weeks. Winter is starting early this year; so I'm a bit concerned about the environmental factors. The wind here is horrible! Much worse when it's in the 20's or lower.
What's a retrieve only levelwind?
It's starting to cool down in Southern California. It only got up to 87 today after being over 100 a couple of days ago. It should be into the 70's by Monday.
With the synchronized levelwinds; the line guide vacillates back and forth on cast and retrieve, driven by the rotation of the spool. Usually; the gear driving it is on the left side of the reel. Retrieve only; means that the levelwind is only mechanized by the shaft turning (retrieve only). IE: When you're reeling in.
Gotcha. I know them as synchronized levelwinds when they stay engaged when casting (Calcutta TE300 and 400) and disengaging levelwind when they don't move when casting (Curado/Lexa/TranX).
Man, sounds like you got lucky with that fall. I'd have probably really messed myself up.
I'm still learning the terminology. Bear with me...
Nah; I doubt you'd have done anything that stupid! Too big a hurry. You lose focus on safety. Usually doesn't end well. Just glad to not be eating moss muffins.
What? You have moss on the ground in West Texas? Some special kind that grows in the semi-desert? No wonder you didn't get busted up worse than you did! I have cousins in Abilene and Houston (Friendswood). They grew up in Midland. I recall Pecan trees in their yard in Midland but no moss. Okay, joking aside you're lucky to have not hurt yourself much worse.
Nah; I was in Idaho. I actually live about 50 miles west of Abilene, though.
yeesh! i'm staying off ladders for a while! :-\
Glad to hear you're ok!
Here's my take on Boca Abec 7's vs standard Stainless Abec 5's. I personally don't purchase the orange seal abec 7's for my personal reels, after a lot of time spent distance casting and comparing both the difference is negligible. I appreciate that there are known beneficial qualities to ceramic hybrid bearings but for my purposes, the return on investment of the extra cost isn't worth it. I flush all my (and customers) bearings out with IRC Brakleen and an RC-Car "Bearing Blaster", then apply 1 drop of our tried and tested Tsi 321. On my reels a dry or lubed Abec 7 will cast the same distance as a clean tsi 321 lubed Abec 5. I'm not a tournament caster but even with a heavy set up like a Penn 113hlw or Newell 550 on a 13-14' custom surf rod and 9-10oz weight I'm reaching 100+ yards with abec 5 stainless. On my Abu 7000 BY its easily 180 yards throwing 5oz on stock bearings.
Here's a video I recorded a while ago of a reel that surprised me. A Newell No-Letter 550 that has maintained a ~4:30 freespool time using used abec 5 stainless bearings which I flushed and lubed. Granted the large mass of the wide aluminum spool+line does make a big difference in freespool time but it's still a great example of how well Abec 5 stainless bearings can perform on the bench. https://youtu.be/ZKuKCh0ik5Q
In the field the reel casts the same distance as similar reels I have, using the same effort/technique the lead will fall to the earth at the same rate under the pull of gravity. Extreme freespool speeds are null when you need to control the rate the spool spins to how much line is being pulled out by the travelling weight. I think with smaller abu baitcast reels with light spools you may notice a difference but for larger conventional reels where spools have a lot of mass that maintain momentum it's less noticeable. I'd still like to see your results though!
Aloha,
Kyle
Wow, that reel never stops! I had to stop the video....LOL
Kyle - pretty much my findings - I've got to the point where I can't justify the cost of higher cost bearings. I'm now thinking of building a jig that simulates a fishing reel (in terms of typical free spool time) eg a spool shaped whatever with a multi stepped shaft that can accommodate various bearing sizes. A jig can give you (should give you :-\) repeatable results that can be fairly compared one bearing to another.
The lifespan of a bearing is another matter ??? A life test jig ???
To get consistency a means of initially starting the spool needs to be nailed - I havn't got that part - Yet ;) But I'm thinking on it :)
Quote from: alantani on October 28, 2017, 05:43:24 AM
yeesh! i'm staying off ladders for a while! :-\
It ain't the ladder; it's the Indian. When you sacrifice quality for quantity; quality suffers. In this case; it's the quality of life. I knowlongly allowed my company to overbook my work schedule. Sometimes; you just have to prove them wrong, but that's not my work ethic. I was single-minded in purpose. I was counting minutes; now I'm counting dollars. And... minutes of sleep - when able.
Thanks, Alan.
Back to bearings...
Yogi,
I thought that was a prank for a little bit! Wow! The real meat and potatoes was in what you wrote. I've gotten a number of PM's and posts questioning the ABEC rating system. With good cause. My company spent a fortune to become ISO and ANSI ranked; but the bottom line is; I never saw an inspector(s) check anything. We hired a QC staff at a huge salary to tell them that we are in compliance - subject to audit. So; if I were so inclined; I could do the crappiest job of QC'ing circuit boards, and calibrating our equipment, and no one would be any more the wise - UNLESS - one of their inspectors showed up unannounced and caught me in non-compliance. We have always been so hardcore quality, that their standards are nothing more than time consuming (paperwork) - and a step backwards compared to how we tested. Every piece of equipment I use, and every calibration I perform is NIST traceable (Nukes are not toys, young man!). Never heard of any company having their rating yanked.
I've gotten more opinions on bearing standards than I have skin left on my arms. The nearly universal bottom line is: most of the opinions heavily favor Japanese bearings for quality and consistency. Based on my knowledge of their products; I tend to favor that opinion - until I verify it through testing. ABEC is just ONE standard, and obviously not universally consistent. Complicate that with the fact that any manufacturer can claim anything. Ditto resellers.
I committed to these tests for Boca, and I know they aren't going to be forensically accurate. But; based on an average cast - without splitting microns - I'm going to get somewhere close to the truth. Fishing is an art; not a science. My only interest is that I've been deluged with videos / op-ed's from other sites, etc. that boast the merits of Boca bearings using nothing more than an empty, free spinning spool as the standard. {Cough!} If they blow the socks out of the water - or even justify the extra cost; I'll sing their praises from the top of the mountain like others. However; if my findings are similar to what you proffered, I'm throwing the yellow flag.
Not touting my reputation (much), but in nearly 20 years as a death investigator (retired); I had to recreate a number of scenarios and never lied or embellished once on the witness stand. Same holds true here. What you see is what you get.
Looking forward to getting back in the mix and conducting these tests. Engaged a new videographer Friday.
The video of my reel is definitely not a prank but it is exceptional to the norm. ~1.5-2 minutes what I aim for with freespool times.....+4:30 while all treatment consistent is very unusual. For some reason the balance/alignment with that particular custom built reel is perfect and freespools over twice as long as most of reels I build/service for customers or myself. Keep in mind, it's not just bearings that affect freespool time in a complete reel, the biggest friction point is the stainless spool shaft passing through the pinion gear. Alan and the other members here have extensively covered how achieve the best freespool by polishing friction points and using the best products.
Aloha,
Kyle
Thanks, Kyle. I posted a similar thread about a noisy 10000i that I thought was a levelwind issue. It was a salvage reel in horrible condition that I spent in excess of what it was worth just for the experience.
The bottom line was; I polished the inside of the pinion gear to a reflective finish - ditto the shaft - and it literally cast 700+' (fairly close guestimation) further without the noise. Also added a 5mm wide bearing, as opposed to the stock 4mm, since I had the room. Much more stable feeling; much smoother action.
Tastes great; less filling...
Kyle, I was going to suggest that a balanced spool and good alignment may contribute as much or more than the bearings. Then I watched the last two or three revolutions of your Newell with the phenomenal free spool just before it stopped. The spool speeds up a little and then slows down a little indicating that the spool is not completely balanced. It could be something as simple as the line lay or tape throwing it off balance. I have some reels where the spool will rock backward a bit just as it stops indicating a lot of imbalance. Your 4.5 minutes of free spool suggest that balance may not be the silver bullet I thought it was.
Tiddler, somewhere I saw a video where the person got the spool spinning by holding a spinning rubber wheel on a drill motor against the naked spool. Since the drill motor speed is known, and hoping that the rubber wheel makes good contact and gets the spool spinning as fast as the drill motor, it may provide a way of getting a consistent start up speed for testing. You could probably do the same thing to spin a ball bearing on a stick. Personally, I wind three feet of coarse twine on the spool as though it were a kids toy top. Then yank the twine off to get it spinning really fast. I worry about damaging something by pulling too hard though. Maybe there's a quasi-terminal velocity, but I don't know.
Kayle, getting that pesky pinion off the spool shaft sure is important. There have been a couple of "super free" designs where the pinion is precisely supported so it can never touch the spool shaft during the cast. It is a trendy thing with state-of-the-art Shimanos (and perhaps others I don't know about). But, the oldest version of super free I've seen is on a old Penn Seagate from the 1940's. The Seagate head plate bushing is a fairly long tube; maybe a half-inch long. When the pinion is disengaged by the yoke, it is pulled up on the bushing tube so it cannot touch the spool shaft. The only contact points are the journals and bushing.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on October 29, 2017, 08:20:57 AM
Kayle, getting that pesky pinion off the spool shaft sure is important. There have been a couple of "super free" designs where the pinion is precisely supported so it can never touch the spool shaft during the cast. It is a trendy thing with state-of-the-art Shimanos (and perhaps others I don't know about). But, the oldest version of super free I've seen is on a old Penn Seagate from the 1940's. The Seagate head plate bushing is a fairly long tube; maybe a half-inch long. When the pinion is disengaged by the yoke, it is pulled up on the bushing tube so it cannot touch the spool shaft. The only contact points are the journals and bushing.
-steve
This design is known as a fully floating pinion where the ends are supported by bearings or other so as not to rely on support from the spool shaft eg. Curado I series etc.
Daiwa's Luna is the ultimate refinement of this design where the spool is also supported at it's immediate ends by bearings so any extension of the spool shaft becomes obsolete and alignment is achieved entirely by bearings.
~
Steve -I was thinking along the same lines - spin a rubber wheel against the spool. I'm just trying to conjure a way to make it automatic so all I have to do is time it. That would take care of free spool comparisons. Then there is the subjective test of 'smoothness'. And finally a life test jig, a salt water dunking test, load bearing analysis etc :D
Actually I think I will go back to my original way of selecting bearings. Except for a couple exceptions I would by a batch of cheap 'Abec5' Stainless bearings - select the best spinning/smoothest and ditch the rest ;D
I have followed this thread fairly carefully, some more observations and comments:-
1. this thread has grown to 6 pages in one week, shows the interest in this topic!
2. I have never seen reels as precision instruments and think that is the sentiment here as well. Perhaps if they were, they would not be suitable for fishing.
3. In my search for quality bearings at a fair price I bought bearings at a variety of places over the years and also learned that Japanese bearings are considered to be of very high quality.
4. I also tried balancing my spool in an bit amateurish fashion. I concluded that either it has no consequence, or my way of doing it was useless, or that the effect of the line was much greater than any adjusting I could accomplish.
5. I often thought about quality standards and how bearings are manufactured to produce bearings of a certain standard. I then wondered if they are not simply manufactured and then tested afterwards and sorted according to the test outcomes, similar to what some are suggesting here that they do?
6. Some reels simply spin and/or cast better then others and not only does a "free floating pinion" play a roll. One of my favourite reels has one bearing and one bush on the spool and casts rather well like that. I then decided to improve it's cast by replacing the bush with a bearing. It made little or no difference!
7. I have two Penn Fathoms FTH25N, they should be very good casting reels, but my experience has been otherwise.
I am now patiently waiting to see the test results ;) ;)
A belated video : How Ball Bearings are Made.
https://youtu.be/ONz6S48QgEk
Stringent quality control checks are just one of the factors that make a big difference between Japanese and Chinese bearings.
~
Great topic. Interesting read. Still thinkin about maintenance. Seems that a bushing with the same type a maintenance (and maintenance schedule) would be the better choice for conventional/baitcaster reels. Bearings are more complicated to maintain, expensive and delicate. How much spool speed is needed? Lota-physics-type a factors in casting terminal tackle, without a gettin a backlash. The limiting factor is gonna be terminal tackle speed, relative to spool speed. All said n' done, for me n' my reels with bearings, the most important thing would be the durability factor.
Gfish
Jim - referring to an earlier point of yours about ISO9000 accreditation. I remember (rather fondly actually) the days of Quality Control as opposed to today's Quality Assurance type regimes. I used to tour various factories and check their production (using batch sampling techniques on the larger quantities). If the batch was rejected it would have to be re-worked (if that were possible).
Shift forward (post 1987 iirc) ISO9000 was first published. Quality control from a purchasing angle had all but gone. Quality Assurance had arrived. For those who have never been involved in these systems I will try and paraphrase: This is from a purchasing angle rather than production. You don't check/measure the quality (which here means fitness for purpose). Because the company has been accredited it is 'assumed' the goods are o.k. That is their systems, paper work trail, have been validated therefore the goods must be to specification :-\. This removes the onus on large organizations to have large Quality Control Inspection Teams. Instead the production company must do all the work.
I went through the accreditation process with a couple of organizations. Nothing but 'systems' and the paper trail were ever inspected. Thinking of paper, I believe there was a 'procedure' for wiping your backside :D
Quote from: exp2000 on October 29, 2017, 01:59:26 PM
A belated video : How Ball Bearings are Made.
https://youtu.be/ONz6S48QgEk
Stringent quality control checks are just one of the factors that make a big difference between Japanese and Chinese bearings.
~
Fascinating video. Thanks. I was curious how they did that. Even more curious about ceramics.
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on October 29, 2017, 03:58:37 PM
Jim - referring to an earlier point of yours about ISO9000 accreditation. I remember (rather fondly actually) the days of Quality Control as opposed to today's Quality Assurance type regimes. I used to tour various factories and check their production (using batch sampling techniques on the larger quantities). If the batch was rejected it would have to be re-worked (if that were possible).
Shift forward (post 1987 iirc) ISO9000 was first published. Quality control from a purchasing angle had all but gone. Quality Assurance had arrived. For those who have never been involved in these systems I will try and paraphrase: This is from a purchasing angle rather than production. You don't check/measure the quality (which here means fitness for purpose). Because the company has been accredited it is 'assumed' the goods are o.k. That is their systems, paper work trail, have been validated therefore the goods must be to specification :-\. This removes the onus on large organizations to have large Quality Control Inspection Teams. Instead the production company must do all the work.
I went through the accreditation process with a couple of organizations. Nothing but 'systems' and the paper trail were ever inspected. Thinking of paper, I believe there was a 'procedure' for wiping your backside :D
What I find problematic is that we have checkout procedures printed and are required to have them on the lab bench in front of us when testing or calibrating. However; the procedures / values have changed as new revisions have emerged. The checkout procedures have not been updated to reflect the new information. We are not allowed to write notes on the checkout procedures reflecting the changes. So; as long as we have the outdated check list on the bench in front of us; we are in compliance. Grrr!
ISO9000 isn't about providing quality products, it's about quality documentation for auditors. Welcome to management by audit. I noticed that there are 10 times more companies in China with ISO9000 certification than there are in the US. The 2nd highest level of certification is Italy.
I noticed in the video that the only check of the completed product is to weigh them.
When something is messed up the cause is likely to be the cage rather than the race or the balls.
ABU went through the whole bushings versus ball bearings thing. I believe that was 1970's. The story is that they could not find a difference in performance but ball bearings were a great marketing angle. Penn made the expensive Squidder with ball bearings but the much less expensive Surfmaster had bushings. Many claimed the Surfmaster worked just as well.
One thing I notice is that an emulsion of grease or oil and water really slows down a ball bearing. The ball bearing is pretty good at whipping up a batch of emulsion if a drop of water ever contacts the lubrication. It's like making mayonnaise. You can feel it happening during repetitive casting. Things go along fine until that drop of water hits the bearing and then it all turns to crap. Ceramic bearings run dry (without lubrication) do not whip up emulsion if they get wet. They seem to just fling the water away. Ceramic bearings run dry are notoriously noisy. They quiet down considerably if they get wet but there is no loss of performance.
The same sort of emulsion is formed around bushings but it is not nearly as bad. I do not know if it is because bushings have less contact surface or if it is because they do not whip up emulsion as well, or if it is because there is no place for the emulsion to reside so it is flung away.
I used to obsess and fuss a lot about ball bearings. But it's been a while now since I used a reel that even has ball bearings. Can't say that I miss the cussed things.
-steve
Jim, Mark, Steve - welcome to the so called "real" not reel , World. As a retired engineer I get frustrated. Very frustrated. Did I mention I GET FRUSTRATED. Sorry I'll go to my quite room now - yeah but not for long ;D
It's the world in which we live - we don't get much of a choice.
Guys; Honestly, I should have done more research before I opened this thread. I should have joined the forum before I did. There just didn't seem to be anything but good or bad to say about the benefits of ceramic bearings. Like everyone else; I want that "edge", too. I HAVE opened a can of worms that's spiraled out of control. My bad. I did most of the footwork by straying off topic, and thinking out loud.
So; I'll do the testing when I'm able and publish the results. I appreciate all of the opinions, comments, and experiences. It's given me more to think about than I ever imagined.
Thanks.
Quote from: MarkT on October 29, 2017, 05:22:48 PM
ISO9000 isn't about providing quality products, it's about quality documentation for auditors. Welcome to management by audit. I noticed that there are 10 times more companies in China with ISO9000 certification than there are in the US. The 2nd highest level of certification is Italy.
X2. Worked for American co. Merged into Sanyo(Japanese), with Iso9001 cert. My trainer had me fillin out the relevant paperwork/checklist, before I even started the actual work. Important stuff to do in the right sequence given that it was a "clean-room" environment and the price that our products sold for. It was, what they call a "paper-work culture". Only bad thing for us was OUR signature that we put at the bottom a the form.
Gfish
Sorry everyone. Nothing new. I'd have thought I'd be able to attempt this by now; but it's looking like another week. Sorry. Getting old stinks, when you need to recover quickly.
Try not to be too impatient ,you will get better and improve . Similar happened to me 10 years ago when I was 70 and it just takes a bit of time , maybe 2-3 years .
G fish I certainly agree , in real world of reels I have two inexpensive That are favorites for casting and fishing Penn 60 and ABU 4600CB and require less maintenance to maintain performance .
Having said that I do use some ball bearing reels 2 Morrums, Shimano100EX , Squidders ,Senators , both type Jigmasters but for fishing they are not really any better .
One of the smoothest bench grinders I ever had was an old oil cup bushing grinder , massive for the rated HP ,and great inertia . I am sorry I replaced with a Baldor .
Of course I love the better stuff but it does not fish any better.
What is better than a pair of Levi blue jeans .
Bruce
Jim, I have not bought boca's yet but have bought a few hybrid ceramic bearing's. The 1st and second batch I purchased did not impress me, but I found another supplier on fleabay that had orange seal abec 7 hybrid's ( 1/2 price of boca's) and he said he tested each bearing and engraved them an they are really sweet! They make a big difference! So if you get good bearings they are definitely better.
Also some reel models perform better than others w/ ceramics, for instance, my abu's w/ bearing in spool perform better than older abu's w/ bearings on the end of the spool shaft.
Mark
I am not a reel head as many of you are but I live very close to Boca Bearings and have purchased directly form them in their warehouse. They are not a manufacturer as far as I know but just a distributor and source their bearings from all over the world. I believe that they do try to provide a good amount of quality control as much as realistically possible.
When I went there, even though my purchase was relatively small, they rolled out the red carpet for me when I told them I was a member of the Alan Tani site. I got my bearings and they gave me a mouse pad, a ball cap and some other goodies which were probably worth as much as my purchase.
My impression was that they respected Alan a lot and valued the members of this site as customers.
I am not affiliated with them and I know that other retailers like Dawn at Smooth Drag also put out great products but I believe that Boca does a decent job at trying to deliver a good bearing at a competitive price. As far as what type of bearing is best for reels, well we all have our opinions and use reels in a different manner.
Scott
Scott
Interesting thread,but I regret jumpin' down the rabbit hole.Coulda stopped when the op went from 120 to 900 feet with a little alcohol n' polish.
So; it's been a while, but I haven't forgotten about this project. A few things have changed: I hacked up a wad of money for a nice 4K Sony FDR-X3000R/W camera with every bell and whistle to film the tests myself. I bit off more than I could chew on that. It's way better than any of the GoPro's but much more complicated.
Secondly; the weather here has been the pits this Winter. This Spring isn't much better. It's windy out here; but you usually have SOME time when it's not like being in a NASA wind tunnel. Not this Spring! That's a real deal breaker.
A word of caution: I decided to try HPR bearings on eBay since they were a little less expensive, and they actually had better feedback than Boca. BIG mistake. They were arrogant, unhelpful, and most importantly; their bearings were crap. Maybe I got a bad set. Dunno. They still haven't refunded my money after 2 weeks, and kept trying to convince me that I was doing something wrong. I installed a full set on one my 4th Revo MGXtreme, and it sounded like a dump truck trying to crank on a cold Winter morning. Virtually no difference in performance. Actually; it performed so poorly; I didn't spend much time going any further. This was a brand new reel out of the box. Put the stock bearings back in, and I'm a happy camper until I place another order.
I truly didn't think there was a way to improve the MGXtreme, but after a little Maker's Mark courage; decided to install a complete set that I'd purchased for my last STX. Wow! was I wrong! That sucker sails like a missile. Quiet as a mouse, and depending on how you adjust it; it works perfectly for pitching, flipping, or extra long casts - without bird nesting it! It's absolutely perfect. I'm no expert, but I can cast it like a scalpel.
I'm still going to do as I said - when the weather is a little more cooperative. My opinion at this point is: Yeah; they make a difference, but depending on the engineering of the reel; you may see a little difference up to a huge difference. Your mileage may vary. And; in complete agreement with others who've commented; the reels that I fine tune by polishing the friction surfaces AND add bearings are remarkable. Lubrication in the right amount and viscosity is also a big determining factor. Not to sound ambivalent; but it would appear that there's a good bit of truth to what most everyone has said. A matter of preference? How extreme do you want to go. I have 1 STX and 1 MGXtreme that I've done everything that I've ever seen or heard of doing to a reel to increase performance. You better have a fast thumb!
As to lubrication? I used the Cal's tan grease for gears and drag washers - applied with a camel hair artists brush. And just enough to get the job done. I diluted TSI321 with 50% (99%) Isopropyl alcohol for the bearings and spool shafts. I used a little under a drop for each bearing. Spun them up for about 15-20 seconds at a reasonable speed, and let them dry overnight. Reinstalled them, and voila! No perceived increase in noise with the ceramics, either. Unless you're a bat.
I'm sure I'll think of something else to try to put into the equation during the process; but for now; that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
Jim,
Very interesting thread(topic), glad your still persuing it! But, more importantly, hope your recovering from the little mishap with the ladder😁
Brett
Thank you. I've never been so eager to conduct a test on anything else that I can think of. So many variables - so many possibilities.
But; the fall took a lot more out of me than I'd have ever predicted. I suspect that some of it is neurological in my right arm / shoulder. Some days; I'd never have known it happened (except for the visible scars); others, everything is sailing along great; but when I go to make a cast, it feels like my arm was just plugged into a light socket. Ditto throwing a football to my son or shooting my compound bow. The shock of the pain makes me sink to my knees. It's unpredictable and frustrating. Hoping that it will resolve over time. It remains as unpredictable as it was 3-4 months ago. I'm no Spring chicken; but I'm still too young to have to accept this long term.
On the up side; eBay refunded my money on the HPR bearings during the night. 'Nuff said.
Jim, wishing you a speedy recovery and thank you for doing this test.
Flushing out the many opinions is a sign of something good. :)
I have been checking out a couple of bearings from Boca myself for the past month. Nothing at all as you're doing , I haven't really fish with those, just bench test.
All bearings were opened, rinsed with Naphtha and rested for 5 minutes. Tested afterwards dry and also with one single drop of TSI-301.
At the very end, the ABEC-5 and ABEC-7 were cleaned again and packed with grease.
I was not impressed with the ceramic bearings, those just didn't feel right to me when comparing to the others. I tried them dry and with a drop of oil, still not impressed. Of course might give different results when casting while out in the real world.
Trying the ABEC-5 and the ABEC-7.
The ABEC-5 had the best freespool, but the ABEC-7 felt and still feels the smoothest to me.
The people that asked for my opinion are actually going with the ABEC-7 for their reels. This wasn't based on my test, they compared all given information from others and decided to go with the ABEC-7.
Not really sure if this means anything, just wanted to put it out here.
Best,
Sal
I'll be watching with interest. Much of my casting is with a live sardine or anchovy and no weight so free spool is very important. A few yards matters at times. Thanks for doing this.
Hope you heal up soon.
Sal,
I've noticed several things that seemed odd - even counter intuitive - about testing the bearings. Real melon scratchers...
Placing the bearing on a "bearing checker" and free spinning them yielded varying results compared to installing them in different reels. Some of the bearings I bought had hardly any free spin time. It often varied from 11 seconds to 37 seconds from bearing to bearing, of the same size and lot. The same held true after installing them on the spool shafts and free spinning them with, or without line loaded on them. This seems to be the litmus test for people on YouTube, and it doesn't come close to simulating real world loading, spin-up time, or deceleration at the end of the cast. They frequently offered different performance gains on the same model reel. All of the "New in the box" reels of each series were fairly consistent, out of the box. Thumbs up ABU. But; being new to the sport, and having read so much interesting, yet; contradictory information about fine tuning reels, and performance gains; I had to stick my nose into it. I'm NOT a structural or mechanical engineer, so much was to be learned.
Jeff Brooks at Boca Bearings offered the greatest insight with regard to testing their product. Jeff said that he runs his buck naked, without the shields. Any type of lubricant is going to slow the performance of ceramic (hybrid) bearings. Oh; so very true! However; along with that recommendation comes what I call "The Chatter Factor". Somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of the bearings tested "dry" produced an unacceptable noise level. Bear in mind: I'm legally deaf! Honestly. Totally deaf in my right ear, with 45% hearing in my left (corrected with a hearing aid). 65% speech recognition. So; if the noise level is annoying to me; I consider that significant. Thus, the diluted TSI321 that I use. I chose 321 due to the thicker initial viscosity because I also use it on other moving components in the reel that aren't dependent on high speed. It also acts as a rust / oxidation inhibitor, so I also "paint" the inside of the reel, housing and components with it. I have 2 separate dispensers for each type. Word around the campfire is that 301 is the same molecular composition as 321, only diluted with some type of solvent that evaporates. The solvent is meant to act as a disbursement vehicle to more evenly distribute the lubricant, (which is Teflon based) that bonds to the surfaces on a molecular and sub-molecular level. The solvent evaporates, leaving a thin, even coat of the same lubricant as 321. In other words: It ain't coming off with water; and, it ain't going away easily. The safest way to remove it that I could find, or think of was bathing the bearings in 99% Isopropyl alcohol in my ultrasonic cleaner overnight. Others use anything from brake cleaner to lighter fluid. But; my thinking is: any petroleum distillate will leave some type of residue behind.
Bearing (no pun intended) that in mind; I wanted the best of both worlds. Quiet ceramic bearings that were uninhibited by too thick of lubricant. This took a considerable amount of time because to fairly evaluate each scenario; I had to compare the same stock bearings, same Boca bearings, and same reel. Which brings us to another variant: Manufacturing. This is where the real pickiness begins. All reels are mass manufactured. No way around it. PICKINESS ALERT! You cannot mass produce any product with Swiss precision. You can produce some very fine reels - as ABU, Penn, etc. do, but there is going to be some variation - however small it may be. When I examined the friction surfaces with a video microscope; I could still see machining artifact, and in some cases; even tool marking from mass production. Yes; that holds true for all high-end manufacturers. This is where polishing these surfaces comes into play. And; that part isn't for the faint of heart. I could write a book on the different methods I tried to obtain uniform, mirror-like surfaces, so I'll spare the bandwidth. However; once this uniformity is achieved; you're much closer to maximizing the performance gains that ceramic bearings are capable of producing. And; I say that because after trying it both ways; the ceramics consistently outperformed the stock bearings - enough to say: "Yes; there was a definite difference." How much will be revealed once I've concluded the casting trials.
So; thanks to all of you all's input; I had a full arsenal of ideas to consider.
Bottom line is: Nearly everyone's opinion on "fine tuning" produced improvement in incremental steps. And; I think that's where much of the debate stems from. Simply polishing produced about the same results as simply adding ceramic bearing, or even removing the stock lubricants and replacing them with more precision lubricants in conservative amounts. Which brings us full circle back to manufacturing.
I'm not certain how the factory lubricants are applied during the manufacturing process; but the amounts seem to vary widely. Manufacturers offer a warranty on their product, knowing that some are going to be abused or neglected. Most are not going to perform routine maintenance. So; they slather the gears and bearings with thick lubricants in hope that they'll survive the warranty period. As I mentioned earlier, and most of you already know; there's a delicate balance between a thin viscosity lubricant applied carefully, and on a regular maintenance schedule. Compare the bearings performance to running. If you're running wearing lightweight, shock absorbing shoes on a level surface; you're going to be able to run faster and further than if you were trying to run in varying depths of mud.
So; when the weather presents itself for consistent testing; I'll video tape the casting tests. I'm anxious.
Bottom line is; if you love fishing, you can use just about anything and make it work. If you want an edge on technique; you can buy expensive gear without having to do any modifications. If you are nerdy like me; you can try just about anything. Some produce little or no gain. Others, substantial gain. Collectively; WOW!
Jim, you might want to check for longevity as well, most bearings on expensive gear will feel amazingly smooth in the beginning, that's actually the case with many new reels on the market today, but unfortunately are short lived.
Take the older Penn spinners and Dam Quick, I have a bunch of both. Those won't feel as smooth but will stay consistent for the life of the reel.
How do I know? I've been fishing with Penn spinners for 40+ years and that was before I came here and learned how to really service a reel.
This is somewhat related ...
I just recently purchased 5 large boxes of Dam Quick reel parts from a repair shop, the parts will always give you a good indication of what wears most on a reel.
I have approximately 80 stainless steel pinions with 80 bearings and only a dozen brass gears instead of 80.
This tells me bearings are pretty tough on these reels.
Sal
My understanding is that most (premium) reels come from the factory with ABEC 1 (ABEC 3 on super premium) grade bearings. ABEC is nothing more than a level of precision / tolerance. You'd mentioned earlier that you felt the 5's outcast the 7's, but the 7's felt smoother. A lot of truth to that in this application. The 5's tolerances aren't as tight as the 7's - marginally, which would explain the longer spin times. There's not as much contact friction to slow them down. Honestly; I found "pot-luck-picks" as far as whether they cast further than the 7's. In the cases that I could tell a difference; it sure wasn't by much.
I like the feeling of the 7's. That is one thing I can say universally (so far). The reels cast and retreive feel much smoother and stable. I like that alot. That was by biggest surprize on the MGXtreme's. They came out of the box near perfect - in my experience; or lack therof. In fact; I never intended to swap the bearings. When I did; I thought that I'd be giving up a delicate balance of precision casting for distance casting. As I mentioned; when I was able to aclimate myself to the new bearings; I found the performance was incredible in all styles of presentation. The key was establishing a new "normal" with respect to how it performed. Once I was able to establish consistency; I liked it much better; and still can hardly believe the improvemnt that I gained on what I thought was one of the best PL reels out there.
As far as longevity; time will tell. I suspect that the greater part of that answer will have to do with how well I maintain my equipment. At the end of my last post, I mentioned that the manufacturers slather them with as heavy duty a lubricant as they can, while still obtaining good performance - knowing that most people are not going to do the maintenance that we would. Hence; the bearings and gears... Just like an engine. Treat it nice; and it will treat you nice. Abuse it, and you lose it.
Yep, comparing the 5 to the 7, I wasn't sure how these were rated, they told me that it has to do with a tighter tolerance on the 7. To get a tighter tolerance, as we know, parts need to be as close to perfect as possible. This explains the added smoothness of the 7. As for longevity, maintenance helps but not always. If a bearing is of poor quality, it will fail, regardless of how much grease it is packed in. I service some fairly expensive reels and, after one season, some require bearing replacement.
Sal
I went through a period of bearing OCD. Much of it was reported here. Luckily, that's over now but a few generalities stick with me. This applies only to the spool shaft bearings on small modern baitcasting reels. If casting distance is not the primary concern then none of this will apply.
The only way to compare bearings is to use the same rod, reel, line, weight and wind and measure the casting distance. However, free spin time (spinning it on a mandrel) is strongly correlated with casting distance if the bearings being compared have equal mass and are all cleaned and dried the same. Ceramic bearings will have shorter free spin time because of their lower mass but will make longer casts.
A higher ABEC rating makes an individual bearing more likely to cast well, but there is so much variability that you can find a ABEC 5 that is much better than an the average ABEC 7 and a ABEC 7 bearing that is worse than the average ABEC 5.
Lubrication shortens the free spin time and shortens the casting distance regardless of the material (stainless or ceramic) and regardless of the lubricant. TSI 321 slows bearing down a lot and the effect is fairly long lasting. Low viscosity lubricants do not slow the bearing down as much and the effect is short lived. Getting water on an non-lubricated bearing has the same effect as oiling it. Water is thrown off a bearing fairly quickly so the lubricating effect is short lived. Getting water on an oiled bearing creates an emulsion that slows it down more than oil or water alone. The emulsion will not go away on its own and can only be removed by cleaning. Having the bearing get wet is inevitable on small baitcasting reels. Stainless bearings run dry perform well but I do not know about their longevity. Ceramic bearings run dry are a little better and you do not have to worry about longevity.
Feel, smoothness and noise is not necessarily correlated with casting distance. Bearings without lubrication feel rougher and make more noise but cast better. However, a change in feel or noise (either for the better or worse) is usually accompanied by reduced performance. Ceramic bearings have a rougher feel and make much more noise than stainless bearings even though they perform a little better.
-steve
I've been taking all this bearing talk in, and I've dug deep into much of this too. My results almost make me wonder what the heck all this is about? First I spend $50 on a set of bearings that will spin for a week, then I have to buy a mag kit to slow the reel down. It all seems unnecessary at that point. Many of the discussed issues are great info though, and don't get me wrong, quality bearings are very important to me. Great thread Jim! 8)
There's one other factor that I hadn't mentioned because I'm not sure exactly how to make the determination. That's: Break-in period. I decided it was nice enough to toss out a line or 2 today. Also decided to take one of my Morrum's with me, since I'd only done distance tests with it - comparing them with stock - but never fished them. The MGXtreme that I did everything to has been my go-to reel during the very few times I went fishing during the Winter. I hit the mother load when I got there. Pulling them in left and right - only; most weren't quite keepers. Actually; I seldom keep any Bass. But; I nailed 12 nice sized Blue Gill's.
OK; back on topic... Towards the end of the afternoon; I realized that 1 of 2 things has happened: Either I've gotten incredibly good at casting, OR the reel was "breaking in". The feel, sound, and performance was noticeably better than I remembered it being. So; I decided to give my M5600CL a shot. That was an understatement! It wasn't new when I got it; but it was like new. I remembered a dramatic difference in the casting distance with the Boca's vs. stock. I also remember that the larger bearing that I removed was horrible. Not as far as noise, but the dwell time was only a few seconds on a mandrel. Nonetheless; that sucker cast a country mile with a 1/2 oz lure. I couldn't believe it. With a spool that size compared to my little ole MGX? I had to really slam on the brakes to keep it from birdnesting. But; with good thumb; was still able to cast further than I had with any of my other reels, thus far. Don't get me started on its other attributes.
So; I suppose everyone's experiences vary as much as our technique, equipment, and other variables. I think I'm finding my groove - slowly, but surely. May not work for you; but it's working fine for me. Vice versa in advance.
I appreciate everyone's comments, suggestion, rants, etc. Like I said; it's given me an arsenal of ideas to consider. I know this thread has gone on longer than a freight train, but I still welcome ANY input, experience, or advice. Just trying to build a better mouse trap - FOR ME! But; glad and eager to share my experiences, too.
Good to see you back, Jim, as usual with your thought provoking posts.
Boca,hedge-hog, or whatever you choose, theyre all the same with a 30mph+ head wind.
Love me a good detailed technical thread. Nerd power baby! Shoulda guessed back in H.S., at the beginning a the IC chip thing, that they'ed be rulin the world.
Jim & Sal & Steve et. al., oughta get together and design/test their way to a "closer to perfect" reel.
People that really test their theories and innovations can truly advance their art.
Jim what method do you use tho polish metal reel parts?
I don't remember what they're called; but you can find them on eBay, or other sites - sanding pads. You can buy them in varying grits up to 13,000, or a party pack. I prefer not to use them, but sometimes; the tool marks - (striations) are so pronounced that I use them with water or cutting oil until I get to a polishing point. I've never used under a 10,000 grit pad on friction surfaces. For spool ends; I wrap (roll) an end with electrical tape, and insert it into my drill, as to not further scuff it. At (reasonably) LOW speed; I rotate the spool until one end is ready for polishing. Reverse order for the other side, if necessary. After "roughing" the ends; I remove any tape and clean the metal surfaces with alcohol to remove any residue of the adhesive.
At that point; I use a Dremel tool with a foot pedal to vary the speed and use "Mother's Aluminum Wheel Polish" on a felt buffing wheel on the Dremel. KEEP YOUR SPEED LOW! Elsewise, you run the risk of overheating the shaft ends, or scorching the metal. Not the least of your problems would be slinging the polishing compound everywhere. Even the lowest setting for a Dremel (5000 RPM) is too fast. So use an old variable foot pedal, if you can find one. Don't forget the beveled ends that contact the tensioner and brake. ***Harbor Freight, etc. have Dremel clones for a song and a dance that run off a DC wall wart) *** The reason I mention that is, you can cut the end off the DC adapter and use a variable power supply to keep it at a reasonable speed - at a budget price. Bonus. You can use a 10x magnifier, but I use a cheap video microscope that plugs into my USB port and can examine my progress along the way. Once you've achieved a mirror-like finish; it's off to the brass parts - main gear, pinion, etc. if applicable.
I use a soft / medium bristled brush on the "Dremel" to polish the gear meshing's with Brasso. Ditto the above instructions on procedure. No way around it: This is generally messy. And; time consuming to obtain not only a good polish; but uniformity, as well. For the other friction surfaces of brass - IE: drag surfaces (also metal drag washer spacers) I use the same method as above - except there's no way to spin up a flat, metal drag washer. Patience, patience... It DOES pay off in the end. For the pinion gear; I do the same for the gear meshings; but I also ordered some wooden stemmed Q-Tips that I cut in half with wire cutters. Insert into Dremel tool and polish the inner barrel of the arbor with Brasso until polished.
If you have a centrifugal brake; don't forget the contact surfaces of it, as well.
Very light oil (TSI321 - cut 50% with 99% Isopropyl alcohol {or TSI301} - less than a drop per bearing) on the ceramic or SS bearings. TSI321 on all other friction surfaces, except the gear meshings. For that; I use a 1/2 inch wide camel hair artists brush to apply Cal's tan drag grease very sparingly. Ditto; the drag washers.
"Paint" all (inner) metal frame surfaces with TSI321 as a rust / corrosion inhibitor. Ditto on the Pawl and levelwind surfaces.
Figure on about 2-3 hours - first time. About an hour after you feel comfortable. Yeah; it's painstaking and nitpicking. But; buckle your seatbelts on the first cast! Bearing in mind, of course; adjust (readjust) your tension / brake to the same standards as you always have prior to casting. Otherwise; bring some dental tools to detangle the bird nest.
*Forgot to mention cleaning all of the above parts, prior to assembly and lubrication with alcohol (or similar) in an ultrasonic cleaner - if you have one. Lots of Dwan, and a soft bristled toothbrush otherwise.*
Jim I don't know anything about Abu reels. I was intrigued by your post that said you cast 1/2 ounce weight a county mile. Realistically how far would you say you cast that weight? The reason I am asking is that when I am down in Baja and we hit into a school of tuna that are feeding on the chum thrown from the boat there is a need to cast a sardine as far as 25 yards or so. We usually resort to throwing the fish itself after stripping line off the reel in a pile at our feet. While it does work most times we often get tangles. The Mexican "sardinas" are probably 1 to 2 ounces. Any advice? Dominick
Dominick you could try a spinning reel :)
Quote from: Tiddlerbasher on March 28, 2018, 03:44:03 PM
Dominick you could try a spinning reel :)
Yes I know that would work. I wanted to know about a conventional reel. Dominick
I should be more specific, since I'm quoting mainly the results achieved with the MGXtreme. As I said; the wind here is unpredictable and buffeting. So; I haven't gotten to actually do a true measurement test on a football field. My "guess" is that stock - I could fairly easily obtain casts between 100-120 feet with a 1/2 oz. lure. After tuning it and polishing; it casts so far that it's hard to approximate, but I'm going to take a stab at 160-180 feet. With the STX's; subtract about 10-20 feet with the same under similar conditions. Being an "old guy"; I have to strain to see where it impacts in the lake at that distance. Partly because of the ripples created by the wind.
As for the Morrum; I've only tested 1, and only 1 afternoon. But; it seemed to equal, or exceed the MGXtreme. This was a Morrum M5600CL using Sufix 832 #30. Same on all of my smaller reels, for that matter. Difference being; the Morrum is such a hearty reel that the retrieve is almost effortless. Obviously, nothing to boast about, but I caught 3-4 1.5 - 2lb. bass, and 1 blue gill. Whereas; the same on an MGX; you can feel the fight. But, bear in mind; the MGXtreme's claim to fame is it's light weight (4.5oz.), and mine are mounted on Villian 8's. The Morrums; on Veritas 8's. The Morrum isn't excessively heavy, by any means, but it's somewhat heavier, and on a slightly heavier rod.
Hopefully; I made some sense... Fighting a deadline today. Fishing on Friday - hopefully.
I came across this last night:
https://www.bassboatmagazine.com/threads/how-to-super-tune-a-baitcaster.7645/ (https://www.bassboatmagazine.com/threads/how-to-super-tune-a-baitcaster.7645/)
I don't think I can reach his numbers.
-steve
Thanks, Steve. You never opine without sending me running for thought, and absorbing your experience /knowledge.
Wow! I don't know how to respond. Great minds think alike? Nah. I don't parallel my intellect with anyone else for fear of embarrassment. It's almost as though one of us were reading the other's article, except I just posted last night, and have never seen or heard of him. I've read bits and pieces from other authors on tuning - but, mainly from YouTube on various methods - thus my conclusion that nearly every one has some merit. Cumulatively; it's a beast. I don't know who's more long winded, - him, or me!
I agree with >95% of what his philosophy is with respect to engineering - again; bearing in mind; I'm an EE, with my major in RF engineering, not a structural, or mechanical engineer. However; I worked as a forensic death investigator in Atlanta for many years before retiring. The reason that's relative with respect to my engineering philosophy is that I had to reconstruct crime scenes, motor vehicle accidents, including occupant injuries and kinetics, industrial accidents, etc. So; I had to have a good working knowledge of "billiard ball" physics.
I can only afford one addiction at a time; and currently; it's Abu Garcia. Everyone has their preference in fishing equipment as much as our tastes vary in women, politics, etc. I can't afford Shimano, Diawa, etc. in addition. There's plenty of room for opinion and favoritism; but no room for arguing over who has the best mouse trap. What works for you, works for you. What works for me, works for me. We all love fishing and tinkering with reels - thus this fantastic forum! I've heard great things about nearly every popular reel / rod combination. God bless you. We should all be content in our own enjoyment. Sadly; I may have bet on the wrong horse. Since Pure Fishing has monopolized on the tackle industry; the engineering is focused on profit margins, with performance and durability taking a back seat. Shimano and Diawa are clearly favorites that I hope to some day be able to explore. Ditto, others. I still have my Dad's Penn-Pier 9 reel that I've restored and love it. Gave it to my son.
The above as a "disclaimer", I disagree with his using sandpaper - particularly of the grit that he references. Close tollerances are paramount to performance, and overall pleasure and functinality of any reel. When you use "sandpaper" that is 600-800 grit; you're essentially using it - in my opinion - as an abrasive that may wear away of the tight margins that make our reels what they are. I mentioned that I ONLY use them when the tool markings / imperfections require a more rapid removal than simply polishing. And; I monitor this using a calibrated digital caliper and video microscope.. If the striations are too pronounced (from the factory), I have no hesitaion in returing it. If it's a refurb; I pray REAL hard, and do my best. If it's a refurb, and the margins are close to tollerance; I buy a new part, if available. The ONLY exception to this was a 10000i Big Game reel that was a "salvage" reel. I replaced the handle (pitted form salt), side plates, etc. if it was possible. The spool is $55.00, and I already had $120.00 in parts. The spool shaft ends were horrific. The bearings were both goners. I polished (sanded) the shafts carefully; and it works like nothing you've ever seen. With a 10000 spool, and Sufix 832 #85 line; it casts too far to see. Ocean going; obviously. Here; sharky, sharky, sharky...
My position is: If I can avoid harsh abrasives; I will at any cost. 10000 to 13000 take more time from the get go; but have less propensity to damage the intended specs. I's rather spend 2 more hours on a difficult reel and keep the tolerances tight; than grind away blindlessly, and hope for the best. It's a recipe ripe for inconsistency.
I'm happy with my results. I'm proud of my results - especially for a rookie. Your mileage / opinion may vary widely. My reels are good performers for my use. They're also very consistent performers. No real surprises. Makes for a fun fishing day! Ain't that what it's really all about?
I totally disagree with using that sandpaper he was using. Its too abrasive and would take forever to get sanding marks down to a polished surface. Too much material is removed. The brass used is very soft.
I polish the inside of pinions and bushings with a spinning wood stick too, but without the sandpaper cover. Usually its a bamboo skewer or sometimes a wooden chopstick. It gets rid of the tarnish and shines up the brass, but there will be some black stain on the wood so something is being removed. I just hope the wood is soft enough to keep me from doing too much damage.
-steve
Quote from: oc1 on March 29, 2018, 07:16:39 AM
I polish the inside of pinions and bushings with a spinning wood stick too, but without the sandpaper cover. Usually its a bamboo skewer or sometimes a wooden chopstick. It gets rid of the tarnish and shines up the brass, but there will be some black stain on the wood so something is being removed. I just hope the wood is soft enough to keep me from doing too much damage.
-steve
Most new custom pinions are heat treated, they're very tough to damage, but will need to keep an eye on speed, you don't want them to get too hot.
For bushings I use lollipop sticks, no need to buy lollipops, you could buy just the sticks. ;D
Sal
I cut the tips off a Qtip then chuck it. Add a little steel wool and Flitz polishing compound.
Dwight
Quote from: handi2 on March 29, 2018, 12:24:11 AM
I totally disagree with using that sandpaper he was using. Its too abrasive and would take forever to get sanding marks down to a polished surface. Too much material is removed. The brass used is very soft.
What approach or sandpaper grade do you recommend?
~
I use wet & dry starting with 1200, working down to 2500, then polish with a cotton ball with some polish or as Alan said tooth paste, cheers Don.
Quote from: Alto Mare on March 29, 2018, 11:11:22 AM
Quote from: oc1 on March 29, 2018, 07:16:39 AM
I polish the inside of pinions and bushings with a spinning wood stick too, but without the sandpaper cover. Usually its a bamboo skewer or sometimes a wooden chopstick. It gets rid of the tarnish and shines up the brass, but there will be some black stain on the wood so something is being removed. I just hope the wood is soft enough to keep me from doing too much damage.
-steve
Most new custom pinions are heat treated, they're very tough to damage, but will need to keep an eye on speed, you don't want them to get too hot.
For bushings I use lollipop sticks, no need to buy lollipops, you could buy just the sticks. ;D
Sal
Lollipops go great with intricate work... Another great idea to consider.
A very minor knowledge of metallurgy goes a long way. It's pretty much common sense - even though common sense isn't common these days.
Good idea! Thanks!
Quote from: fishhawk on March 27, 2018, 08:34:27 PM
Boca,hedge-hog, or whatever you choose, theyre all the same with a 30mph+ head wind.
Went fishing in 29 MPH winds this evening... Got skunked, but no birdnest. DAMN! It was cold, too! Even my worms were shivering - in the ice chest.
Never again - at least, not at the local lake.
I have drawers full of sandpaper strips already cut to size. I do have as low as 800 grit but have only used it on very badly corroded parts. I polish lots of parts in various reels. Generally, if it's metal and not coated, then I probably polish it to some extent. I have 1000 grit up to 7000 grit. I use a paper shredder to cut full sheets into 1/4 inch strips. I then stack several together and use scissors to cut them to about 3/4 inch long strips I call flags. I cut a slit in the end of my wood sticks and put the flag in it then roll it around. Sometimes I start with 1200 or 1500 but often I will start with 2000 or 2500 grit. Finding good wet or dry paper above 2500 to 300 grit is tough. I bought a bunch off ebay last year in 3500, 5000, and 7000. They were small squares cut from a full size sheet and then resold as 4 sheets. LOL. what a scam. If anyone knows of a source for quality paper in higher grits, then please let me know. Using 5000 and then 7000 has allowed me to get a highly polished finish with very little buffing needed. As for areas polished, I seldom touch the inside of pinion gears because most modern reels are designed for the spool shaft to not touch the inside of the pinion during casting. I don't like to take the chance of altering the gear mesh tolerances by altering the inside of the pinion. I clean it and may run a spinning q tip through it at slow speed with brasso but no sanding.