Penn 112H Senator (1975 vintage) repair questions
1)Reels have original fiber drag washers. Should these be upgraded? If so, to what? I assume the height of the stack has to be maintained.
2) There are two tension washers on the drag stack. I've seen these in many different positions, i.e. 1) both below the star wheel; 2) one on either side of the star wheel; 3) Both ont top of the star wheel (immediately below the handle), etc. What is the correct positions of these?
3)What is a good and safe degreaser. I see the parts are made of many different materials and don't want to ruin any part. I've been using WD40.
4) Lube - I've been using Super Lube and Penn Lube, depending what O have available. Is one better than the other?
As with most senators, especially vintage ones, the tolerances are a little on the loose side compared to today's standards. In that case, the tension washers and other washers are specific to each reel individually... this is done during assembly to make them perform at their best in the field. If the reel is working as you believe it should pay attention to the configuration that exists. If not pay attention anyway so you can switch things around to make it operate at the top of it's potential. Sometimes you just gotta move things around, add, or subtract something. Go with smooth drag carbontex drags for sure! Is it a 3+1 or 5+1 stack? Anyway you want the 5+1. If you have a hard time fitting it (don't think you will) get the ground flat smooth drag washers... it will help. Degreaser I use 409 for anything not solid metal. On the metal I use 90% alcohol or white vinegar. Lube- Cal's grease on the drags. The guys+ Alan use Yamaha Blue grease. I use Cal's all around. Yamaha Blue on the bushings works well, though. Good luck and have at it. Check mysticparts.com for parts if need be cause there are some awesome upgrades out there for this beauty! Good Luck
Dom
"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"
To tag on to Dom's right-on comments, if you choose Yamaha grease, make sure it's the Yamaha Marine Grease in the 14 ounce tube. It's the only Yamaha lube with salt water corrosion inhibitors. Also there are light oils that work well for ball bearings (if the reel will be used for casting) bushings, and the gear sleeve: tsi 301, tsi 321, CorrosionX, and ReelX, to name a few. Like Dom said, you can't go wrong with Cal's as your only grease, pack the ball bearings completely with grease to keep water out if the reel will be used for trolling. You can put on a stainless steel gear sleeve that will stand up better to hard cranking, and a bigger grip/handle that makes the reel feel so much better. The 1+5 drag stack is a must-have! The weakest link will then be the gears but as far as overall strength, it will still be a 112H. Dom is the man when it comes to Senators. ;D
Rob
it's basically a jigmaster drag stack. a carbontex drag under the main gear is a must. a stainless steel gear sleeve is really helpful because the brass ones are always getting rounded off. i add a jigmaster power handle or a bolt on kolekar grip. figure straight 30# mono and 6-8 pounds of drag to keep this reel happy. tension washers don't matter. add them in where ever they fit. i'd rather see you using corrosion x than wd-40. penn grease is good stuff. stick with it.
You got solid advice from these boys... keep us posted on your project... best of luck!
Dom
Only a couple more comments: I don't think you can convert a 112H Senator to a 5 stack drag; it takes 3 Jigmaster drag washers (006 309) and squeezing in more would require pretty serious work on the side plate. And the new Penn grease -- the blue stuff called X-1R -- is great; the old amber stuff is no good at all.
I just don't see why you would want to add two more washers on a reel that will only get you 8 pounds of drag at its best. My opinion is to change the washers to carbontex with the same layout configuration , add the stainless steel sleeve, carbon washer under the main gear and you got yourself a nice little reel. If you're looking for more punch, try the Senator 113H , you could add 1+5 or even 1+7 and should be able to get around 25 pound of drag . Akfish is wright about the new Penn grease, I use it on all of my reels, the old amber grease would turn brown after a while and get hard. Penn came a long way, I still use Cal's greasefor the drags though, as Alan recommends.
Thanks for the advice.
Such a true statement about the old Penn lube turning brown. I'm rebuilding 5 reels purchased online at different times. The lube in the reels that were never service was like varnish.
On the topic of lube...no one has commented on the use of Super Lube. That's what my local repair shop recommended.
I haven't used it yet, but I was planning on using it when I run out of the Penn lube.
I put a 5+1 carbontex stack, ground flat washers (smooth drag), stainless gear sleeve, stainless yoke, tighter tolerance spacer (less handle play), newell 5 to 1 gearing/pinion, tiburon frame, 4/0 Pete Kolekar, and upgraded drag star, and I pulled 14 lbs on the scale without the upgraded yoke and upgraded drag star. I believe I could max it out at 17 or so... just didn't wanna push it.
That little ole' reel can do a lot more with these upgrades. Try it out... you'll be shocked! :o
Kevin at Pro Reel uses super lube... he put it on my spinners when he serviced them, but they haven't seen action since the overhaul. I'll let ya know when I test 'em out.
Dom
Looks like you only kept the plates from the original reel Dom. Was it worth it for the money? :-\
I couldn't find a smaller wireline reel anywhere that would last a life time so I hooked up my 112h's with chromed over spools. I'm yet to use them, but once my foot heals I'll give ya a full report. I understand that with some types of fishing there are hundreds of reel choices, but wire lining there is one that reigns supreme... the 113HSP. There are a couple more up for the task, one being the Daiwa 450H-Great reel also, but parts aren't easy to get. I wanted a smaller reel for when I bring out the ladies or younger kids, or during the early spring when the rat stripers are hitting umbrellas 5 at one time (all small fish 16-24"). I put the 112h's on daiwa ste72c rods. They seem a little stiff, but they are light as can be for a wire rod and have a slow/moderate bend. Doubt it'll pull a bunker spoon, but should work for my newly developed umbrella rigs that I made over the winter.
Hey Sal, where do ya boat out of? Whenif we can get together during the season I'll let ya try out the 112's. I don't do this hobby to save money... if I did I would find a cheaper hobby ;)
Dom
I know what you mean Dom, I have a few reels that I customized for myself with similar parts to yours, a couple of Accurate Jigmasters, some 4/0's and 6/0's, most are Accurate. I know what I spent on mine, that is why I asked you that question. Looks like we're on the same page, it's not always about the money. Dom, my boat was in Somers Point NJ, about a mile from Ocean City, but like I mentioned earlier it is now in MD on the Chesapeak. I'm at the NE side of the Chesapeak, it is only temporary, I will go back next year to Jersey, I miss saltwater. Fishing is not that great there, I moved for other reasons. The only good thing about it is that it takes me less then an hour to get there from my house, I'm about 10 minutes outside Philly . I did catch about 15 dozens of blue crabs, I couldn't beleive how big they were 7 to 8 inches (not like the babies in NJ). A friend showed me how to freeze them, so I froze about 10 dozens and took them up to the Poconos to surprize my deer hunting buddies this winter. Steamed crabs and beer in the snow, can't beat that! I also made a few dozen with garlic white wine and fresh tomatoes for the gravy over linguine with lots of hot pepper, don't forget I'm full blooded Italiano. Take care Dom and keep that leg up, don't be a hero, let it take its course and you'll be on the water in no time. Sal
;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Alto Mare on March 18, 2011, 03:43:47 AM
Steamed crabs and beer in the snow, can't beat that! I also made a few dozen with garlic white wine and fresh tomatoes for the gravy over linguine with lots of hot pepper, don't forget I'm full blooded Italiano. Take care Dom and keep that leg up, don't be a hero, let it take its course and you'll be on the water in no time. Sal
;D ;D ;D
Sal: You're killing me. You just gave me a rush. I miss my deer hunting days in upstate NY. I remember plenty of days of linguine with clams and beer kept in the snow to keep them from freezing. Never had steamed crabs back then but we did have memorable meals. Dominick
Intriguing. How did you get a 5 drag stack into a 112H? Did you have to dremel the sideplate? The stainless gear sleeve is a good, albeit expensive, upgrade. And a larger handle is nice. But I don't see how to put 5 carbon drag washers in a 112H.
Quote from: akfish on March 18, 2011, 04:43:50 PM
Intriguing. How did you get a 5 drag stack into a 112H? Did you have to dremel the sideplate? The stainless gear sleeve is a good, albeit expensive, upgrade. And a larger handle is nice. But I don't see how to put 5 carbon drag washers in a 112H.
That's a project (theory) that Bryan and I are working on with thinner than normal metal washers and 0.5mm Carbontex washers. It's a prototype in the works. ??? I jumped the gun on the 1+5 stack, I was able to do it in my 111 without dremeling and was thinking 113. Oops! :-[
Rob
Quote from: Pescachaser on March 18, 2011, 03:50:13 AM
Quote from: Alto Mare on March 18, 2011, 03:43:47 AM
Steamed crabs and beer in the snow, can't beat that! I also made a few dozen with garlic white wine and fresh tomatoes for the gravy over linguine with lots of hot pepper, don't forget I'm full blooded Italiano. Take care Dom and keep that leg up, don't be a hero, let it take its course and you'll be on the water in no time. Sal
;D ;D ;D
Sal: You're killing me. You just gave me a rush. I miss my deer hunting days in upstate NY. I remember plenty of days of linguine with clams and beer kept in the snow to keep them from freezing. Never had steamed crabs back then but we did have memorable meals. Dominick
Hey Dominick, I'm sure you have some great stories.You know what it's all about when a group of guys gets together for a week up in the mountains. If you ever want to bring back memories, just get on the plane and head on over. My buddy has two houses next to eachother, there is alwaysroom for one more hunter/sailor. We have guys from Canada, Italy and Florida,that come up every year.Everyone tries to one-up each other, wich is why I brought the crabs.Unfortunately, it's always the guy with the 5 gallons of homemade wine who wins. ;D ;D
Tpf903, sorry that we got sidetracked from your topic. If you replace the 3 drag washers with carbontex,also replace the washer under the main gear with a carbontex washer and replace the gear sleeve with a stainless steel sleeve, you'll have a nice happy reel that will give you many years of service, I would leave it at that. I personally don't like to remove material from the side plate to accomodate more drags. Or, you could do a complete overall like Dom did, but be ready to dish out some dough. I know that I already mentioned some of this to you earlier, but I wanted to put your topic back on track. Take care, Sal
Sorry Tpf903: We're Italian. Food and wine comes first. Dominick
Okay, now you guys are making me question myself... now that I have PLENTY of time I will crack open my 112h's to check and make sure I'm not talkin' out my you know what. While I'm at it I will type up my "how to clean a reel" article that I owe you guys (I'm gettin' on it Dominick). I'm sorry I haven't responded but I've worked all week, and when I get home I'm pretty shot. Tpf903, If my 112h's only have 3+1 they sure max out pretty high on the scale (though, I don't know how long it would sustain over 12lbs of drag.) If you do as Sal and the boys say you'll have a powerful little reel for LIFE! I'll get back to yas on drag stack....Oh, and Akfish I didn't dremel the plate at all, but I did change out the spacer, not to say that would afford me the room... hmmm? If it wasn't 1AM with a broken foot, and work at 9AM I would crack one open now.
Hey Dominick and Sal,
I'm going hunting with you guys- food, wine, shooting things, I'm In!!!
Dom
Okay, I stand corrected... it is only the 3+1 in the 112H as Akfish said. I'm sure some of you reel repair guys know that when you take apart about 90 Senators of all different sizes in a period of 9 months things all start to blend together. I may try to dremel a bit in an old sideplate to see if I can squeeze two more carbon drags in by doubling them up. Has anyone given this a shot yet? Any thoughts? Everything else I and others said to do is correct... I just checked everything to make sure. By the way, I like my reel nice and tight so I did go with a longer spacer (2 sizes up) from Penn Parts to cut down on the play...and that it did. Now turn that reel into a fish catchin' animal, and have fun doing it.
Dom
Hey Dom, even if you could squeeze 5 drags in that little reel, why would you? This reel is happy the way it is. On this particular reel, increasing the drag will work against you, fishing it over 8 pounds will eventually domage your gears. I've seen your nice collection and looks like you have a reel for every needs, let this one go. Just my opinion, take care bud, Sal ;)
Hey Sal,
I'm gonna be good till at least a constant drag of 12lb. with the Newell Gears and all the stainless add-ons inside her. The Tib. frame for rigidity will help me achieve that. I have them on 10 of my work horse reels, and none in the collection cause I'm keeping the collection all original. As you know for wire lining I don't have many choices, as I need that chromed over brass spool otherwise I risk ruining spools and wire which can become costly. Hey, if it don't hold it's own I'll just have to stick with the 113hsp's.... let's see what happens.
Dom
You could change the frame on those nice custom 113h's, from narrow to standard width and add the chromed spool. I have a few of those.
You know we don't use narrow's on the east coast... just the westies ;D All my customs are 113hsp's with the standard chromed over brass.... just need something for smaller hands, (not mine I'm 6'5" with XL hands), but I have lots of female guests that come out with me ;) Also, I take my friends and their children out a lot.
Dom
Hey Dom, we talk about hand cleaners and I hear about female guests, we talk about reels and still hear about female guests, you must have a lot of guests. Hey, if you join me on the chesapeake we would be safe, the water there is 6' deep on the average except for the ship channel that dropps 60 to 70 ', if something would happen, I could get on your back and be safe, I'm only 5'7". What is it with you guys, my best buddy is Irish and he is 6'7"....is it the cabbage? We eat cabbage too but we add pigs feet and beans in ours. ;D ;D ;D
Sal,
If I was a woman you would definitely say I was promiscuous, so in all fairness I'm a little promiscuous (lots of guests) ;)
I hope you're fishing those 6'-60' ledges you got there. If I were fishing that deep I would drag an eel all over those ledges, and leave the wire down below. Do you guys use eel? We use them especially in the fall because that's when we can get 'em, but if you can find them in the spring... they're deadly! The reason the are so deadly in the spring especially is because that's when the stripers go up river to spawn. The eel are not only a food source for stripers, but also a mortal enemy of the stripers due to the fact that they eat the stripers eggs. Sometimes in the spring we haul bass in with red (from irritation) faces because the stripers actually hammer the eels into the sand several times to kill them. If you have an eel on in the spring you can actually feel them pounding it compared to the fall when they just take it and run.
By the way, I never eat cabbage (must be a little more Sicilian than Italian, send in the escarole and broccoli rabe any day... mom always said it was fruit loops and fruity pebbles ;D As for the pigs feet, you and my old man would get along... hope you like tripe, too! ;)
Dom
Dom, we drag eels in the spring and use blood worms, you're right , eels are hard to get. In the fall , I work the birds about a mile out of Long Port and Ocean City, I use chunks of bunker and fresh clam. I'm sure you know what it's like when you're on top of them, they feed along with those nasty blues, but they're fun to hook. Last fall I cought a 48 incher, that's the largest for me so far. I kept him , when I opened him up he had 4 whole bunkers in its stomach. In late fall, around the third week of November, when the boat gets winterized, I do a little fishing from the jetty. I use clam, if I get lucky, that striper goes on the table for Thanksgiving, I don't like turkey. ;)
Hey Sal,
I hate when the blues infiltrate the area, but don't mind a good fight here and there. They fight a heck of a lot better than stripers for sure! We weed the blues out by using bunker heads (cut on diagonal behind the gill an inch to get the heart, hook through bottom jaw out the nostrils, clip the pec fins... bye bye blues!!! We take our boats out at the same time... the week before turkey day.... after that the weather can be dicey. 48 inch cow is a nice fish. What was the weight... about 46lbs? My biggest is 46 1/2" 40lbs. flat (caught in 2008)! It's the fish in my avatar. Ahh, nothing like jetty fishing in late November with a cold northeast blowing 20 mph at your back while throwing a popper or danny 100 yds. to raise that morning monster. I miss the days I surf fished. That's where I started out, but since the boat I kinda just call it quits when I put her to bed. Kudos to ya!!!
Dom
Dom, we're going to have to stop talking about all that good stuff, I understand that we're all a big family here, but a real fisherman doesn't reveal all his secrets ( fishing....not fishing reels). I was going to post mine in my avatar, but didn't want to make you look bad, just kidding. I didn't have the camera that day, my buddy took one with his cell phone and it didn't come out too clear,I will still show it to you as soon as my 14 years old son shows me how to down load it. Isn't that a shame? Take care bud. ;)
Sal,
You're 100% right about not giving up all the secrets, however, I like telling people how I fish. What I don't give away (except to very few) are my spots, chosen habitat for the time of year, tides I fish on, moon phase, water conditions, temperature, etc. Without these things all ya got is luck... and luck don't fill coolers (even though I throw almost all fish back ... I do produce)! Looking bad with a 40lb'er is okay with me ;) I like to hear fisherman doing well, but boy do I hate when a newbie nails a 50lb'er at my dock... I guess luck does fill coolers from time to time ;D What was the weight of your 48"er? I had to keep my 40 lb'er also cause it was exhausted from the fight.. The bigger the fish, the better chance on mortality when releasing. I have been able to throw a whole lotta 20-30+lb'ers back. Ya better get that 50lb'er before the foot heals otherwise she's ALL mine ;) Be well pal
Dom
Hey Rob,
Sorry to not ask sooner, but did you say prototype 112h with 5+1 drag stack??? Keep me posted if it's not to top secret. I'd use my 112h for sharkin' if you figured out how to do it ;D I love and have full faith in the 112h. I also love bushings when trolling cause you can regrease in the field with EASE! Let me know if ya need anything!
Git it done brotha,
Dom
Dom, we opened her up when we put the boat on the trailer. she had 4 whole bunkers in her. That cow weight in at 44 pound with no guts. I was trying to post the picture, but not even my daughter the scientist could get it done, I will try again later.
Hey Dom -
I'm trying to see if a 1+5 can go in my jigmaster. Bryan's working on thinner metal washers and I'm planning to use 0.5mm #21 Carbontex with them. If it will all fit in the Penn 500 without modification, it should work in a 300 or 400 series Newell that should be able to take the load. No time line established.
Rob
Man, I wish I had a wet knife sharpen machine. Would make the task a lot faster and easier. I wonder how much it would cost to punch out a set if the desire is great.
I desire times 4
Pockets
they would cost $1 each with a minimum order would be 500 slotted and 750 keyed. :-\
Hey Alan,
I'd be in for 40 or so... anyone else?
Dom
I'd get 10 sets of 5-stack metals.
How thick do they need to be?
probably 0.5 mm thick, but I'm not sure about the strength of the eared and keyed washer at that thickness to hold it's shape in the stack.
I would think it would be okay... I might be able to work something up here... let me see what I can do. :)
If the old washers were brass, and these are thinner but stainless... hmmm? I would venture to say the stainless would be stronger, but I'm NOT an engineer. They're are engineers on here... what do you guys think?
Dom
The stock 3-stack is about 5.5mm thick. Using 0.5mm Carbontex x 5 washers = 2.5mm, leaving 3mm for the 5 metals = about 0.6mm each.
Funny, I was just thinking about the strength issue too. :-\
@ Dom - The brass washers and available stainless steel washers are thicker than 0.5 mm thick.
@ Aaron - Are you working this weekend? Maybe be able to stop by if things work out to talk about this more. If not, I'll give you a call.
Let me see how things pan out bryan. I WILL be working, it is just a matter of how much time I end up having. :) Lots of stuff at the shop and a bunch of reels to take care of... Might end up having to be a phone call... :-\
Thinking about making the washers out of hardened 17-4 to make up some strength.. or maybe look into titanium... need to see costs though.