Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Conventional and Bait Casting Reel Rebuild Tutorials and Questions => Ambassadeur Tutorials and Questions => Topic started by: fritz1 on August 13, 2013, 05:34:10 AM

Title: rattle on record 51
Post by: fritz1 on August 13, 2013, 05:34:10 AM
hi guys,
i recently had to clean the bearings of this reel. Therefor i had to remove the idler gear on the right sideplate. I cut of the dimple, cleaned both bb and installed the idler again by putting an e-clip on top. Since then i´ve got a rattling during cast which is driving me crazy.  :-\
I treatet the idler and spool pinion with grease, oil and dry but had no result.

Maybe you encountered this problem before?

thx in advance, fritz1
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: Ken_D on August 13, 2013, 07:35:27 AM
Hi, Never had this happen, but I would re-look at the ball bearing in the idler. It may be siezed up, and buzzing from the friction of the bb and the post.  Push comes to shove, try a plain idler from a present day C3, so the DIN tooth pattern will be the same as the one on the spool.
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: fritz1 on August 13, 2013, 01:25:24 PM
Hi
I changed the whole idler including the small bb, purchased from mikes rr, with no effect. But i noticed the original bb doesnt fit solid in the original idler, while the new one does. Could the spool pinion cause the trouble?

Thx fritz
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: fritz1 on August 13, 2013, 06:49:57 PM
I stripped the reel completely once again :) any part that i should pay special attention to avoid the rattle?

Thx fritz
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: Ken_D on August 14, 2013, 03:19:53 AM
Hi... I'm wondering if the rattle you are hearing is a clash of teeth on the spool gear, and the idler.....there are two DIN tooth patterns, that don't marry with each other.  Pattern A idler will not marry with pattern B spool, and vice versa.  it needs to be A/A, or B/B The spool gear on the Record is second generation DIN pattern.

http://www.abugarcia.com/sites/default/files/schematics/090109RCN60HC1500Titanium.pdf
http://www.abugarcia.com/sites/default/files/schematics/6500C3%201500.pdf

Those are DIN latest, and as seen, spool same as, on the record, and other round reels.
First DIN as below.

http://www.abugarcia.com/sites/default/files/schematics/6500C3%209902.PDF
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: fritz1 on August 14, 2013, 10:07:40 AM
hi,
they should delivered matching up from the factory. Put it back together and it is still noisy. Next and last step will be to change the bearings one after another. Standard size is 4x10x4, but there are two smaller ones. Did anyone measured the idler- and sideplate bearing before?

thx fritz
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: Ken_D on August 14, 2013, 03:35:57 PM
Hi F.... another thing to try would be to disengage all the flyweights and have your thumb ready for backlash possibilities. Sometimes the plastic screeches inside the ring on the brake plate. Some folks advocate a thin coat of lube in the ring, others not. I just take a q tip dipped in armor-all, and lightly wipe the circle.

The bb in the non-crank side plate will be a 3 x 10 x 4. The spool has the one way clutch brg, and one bushing and bb at 4 x 10 x 4.
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: fritz1 on August 15, 2013, 05:35:44 AM
thx ken i´ll give that a try. I would like to smooth up the spool pinion where it touches the axle. Which tools would you recommend?

thx fritz

ps:if someone feels disrespected by my nickname please contact me and i´ll change it instantly!
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: Ken_D on August 16, 2013, 01:26:12 AM
Quote from: fritz1 on August 15, 2013, 05:35:44 AM
thx ken i´ll give that a try. I would like to smooth up the spool pinion where it touches the axle. Which tools would you recommend?

thx fritz

ps:if someone feels disrespected by my nickname please contact me and i´ll change it instantly!

Hio, Fritz... There's a fellow in South Africa who posts at Mike's forum called FritzAbu... Fritz is a given name in many countries, along with an e-handle.  Anyway... If you have a dremel tool or it's clone, I'd chuck a cotton bud (trade name q-tip), wetted with something like Vim, Brasso, silvo, etc, and wind 'er up inside the pinion. Up this way, we pay 16.99 for a dremel clone.  I'd cut the shaft of the bud quite short, as the torque of the rotary tool will deform it, and cause it to wreck.
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: fritz1 on August 16, 2013, 05:23:15 PM
Ok, i'll try and share the result.

Thx fritz
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: 0119 on August 16, 2013, 08:53:52 PM
Ain't nothing wrong with Fritz!  I'm Henry Detlef, son of Heinrich, grandson of Johannes.  Fritz is a great name
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: fritz1 on August 17, 2013, 07:15:51 AM
all right...
is there any effect on polishing the wormgear and pawl. If so, how do you treat the grooves?

thx fritz
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: Mandelstam on August 17, 2013, 09:56:19 AM
There's a great guide on tuning old Ambassadeur's by Tim Parrat posted on Realsreels.com. It covers every part that benefits from polishing.
http://www.realsreels.com/servicing/ReelTuningoldAmbassadeurs.pdf (http://www.realsreels.com/servicing/ReelTuningoldAmbassadeurs.pdf)

You can polish the ends of the wormgear. If you want to improve the pawl I think you have to with a ceramic one, but I don't know if there are any that fits your reel.
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: Ken_D on August 17, 2013, 07:26:08 PM
Quote from: fritz1 on August 17, 2013, 07:15:51 AM
all right...
is there any effect on polishing the wormgear and pawl. If so, how do you treat the grooves?

thx fritz

If it was me, I _would_ install a ceramic line pawl...as per Mandelstam's above. It will do its thing in very short order...taking care of any burrs left over from machining the worm, smoothing things out nicely.

A ceramic line pawl can last up to 10 times longer, depending on how silty the water is, for just under double the cost of a metal one... which is a pretty good deal. Line pawls are the same from a 1500 on up to a 7000 and beyond, for the SE round reels.  
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: fritz1 on August 18, 2013, 08:32:20 AM
hi,
very nice guide, thx. The ceramic pawl sounds a great deal, will they be louder like the bearings do?

I´m not done with the bearings yet :) Are you able to describe the bearings sound, fine and faulty, by a video? I guess a channel related to this board, perhaps on you...., would be an incredible addition.

thx fritz
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: Ken_D on August 18, 2013, 03:46:52 PM
Quote from: fritz1 on August 18, 2013, 08:32:20 AM
hi,
very nice guide, thx. The ceramic pawl sounds a great deal, will they be louder like the bearings do?

Hi, F.. No.. the ceramic line pawl once fished for about a week, is very quiet. Noisy (rattly) ball bearings must be dry...try a drop of a light oil like 3 in 1, or the oil that came with the reel, in the brgs.
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: fritz1 on August 26, 2013, 05:46:52 PM
Hi,
I cleaned the bearings and changed to the new idler with the open brg. There is no piping anymore, but i noticed the centrifugal brake assembly being loose after a few times serviced. Could this cause the rattle? If so, how would you fix it?

thx fritz
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: fritz1 on August 29, 2013, 06:11:48 PM
Hi guys,
There is another thing i noticed a few days ago. If i turn the handle and press the thumbbar, the handle keeps turning about 2 seconds. Is there to much friction between the pinion and the axle?

Thx fritz
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: Ken_D on October 11, 2013, 09:12:08 PM
Quote from: fritz1 on August 29, 2013, 06:11:48 PM
Hi guys,
There is another thing i noticed a few days ago. If i turn the handle and press the thumbbar, the handle keeps turning about 2 seconds. Is there to much friction between the pinion and the axle?

Thx fritz

Hi, Fritz. Are you doing some sort of static test by turning the handle and hitting the thumb bar at nearly the same time?  

Also: to possibly take care of excessive spool side play, pull the brake puck, and clap in a couple of 13104's.
If you have a 6-puck pack, do not put it on upside down. You will not be happy if you already have, or do so as you add the 13104's.
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: fritz1 on January 03, 2014, 05:07:39 PM
Hi there,
What material is the o-ring under the spool tension bearing made of?
Thx fritz
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: Ken_D on January 03, 2014, 06:46:29 PM
Quote from: fritz1 on January 03, 2014, 05:07:39 PM
Hi there,
What material is the o-ring under the spool tension bearing made of?
Thx fritz

Morning/Afernoon/Evening, Fritz. I cannot positively say, but based on North American 0-rings, I suspect it is either Buna-N rubber, or an Ethylene-propylene compound. If yours is compressed and gone flat, therefore not making friction, but not broken, you can carfully remove it from the boss with a blunt needle, and wrap a few turns of 4 lb. monofil in the groove, then re-install the 0-ring. This fattens it back up for a long time, till you get a spare.

Before removal, I would make sure you have a spare from another reel not in use at the moment. Now and then, no matter how careful you are, the 0-ring breaks. This can occur when you use the pick, and see many cracks all over the ring. Or if you stretch the ring too much as you pick it free.  Eeb, eh? has them on all the time..I got 100 for 4.50 and stamps. Hope that helps. HNY, KD
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: fritz1 on February 13, 2014, 03:39:01 PM
Hi guys,
I changed the gear ratio from 6.3 to 5.3 via main gear and pinion. Now the reel does fell very rough.
Can this be minimized by usage, or should i try another set of gears?

Thx fritz
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: Ken_D on February 13, 2014, 04:24:33 PM
Quote from: fritz1 on February 13, 2014, 03:39:01 PM
Hi guys,
I changed the gear ratio from 6.3 to 5.3 via main gear and pinion. Now the reel does fell very rough.
Can this be minimized by usage, or should i try another set of gears?

Thx fritz

New or used gearset?  When you engage cast, how much side play does your spool do?  Check on the bench by moving spool side to side manually, and see how much you get. You don't want much at all.
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: fritz1 on February 13, 2014, 05:55:58 PM
Hi ken,
This is a new gear set directly from abu. On the new set i got a little sideplay depending on the tension i supply. But if i try to increase tension too much, the spool semms to touch the frame somewhere.
Thx fritz
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: fritz1 on February 16, 2014, 02:49:45 PM
Whats wrong ken ?
Title: Re: rattle on record 51
Post by: Ken_D on February 16, 2014, 06:50:30 PM
Hi. Your symptoms are fascinating. These are first time issues here, I've never seen these pop up on other forums I visit, I have suspicions as to what's going on with the spool. The gearset should quiet down after a little crank time on the water. How is the pinion yoke? Any signs of curyley-Q's of plastic anywhere.

The Record is a special breed of ultracast. The spool cap does not adjust casting tension. It adjusts the side to side play of spool to frame.  Put reel in cast mode, feel the side to side play, and adjust the cap to your specs.

From your report, it sounds like you adjusted the cap too far, causing the spool to catch on the LH side of the frame.