I'm having an issue with a Penn Senator 16/0 and hoping you can point me towards what part is worn out. I just put in a new set of HT-100 drag washers thinking that was my issue as to why the drag was weak. I hooked up my 75# nephew and told him to run like a fish to test it out and after cranking the drag all the way down he was still able to pull drag. I added another metal washer like some schematics say some reels need and had the same issue. So I added one of the old asbestos washers between the the extra metal one and I was able to stop him from pulling drag barely and it was cranked all the way down. That still doesn't seem right to me and also with all that in there when I let the drag all the way off it is still a little more snug than I would like since I kayak my baits out. You guys on here seem pretty smart on your reels so I'm hoping someone will know what could be worn out so that I can order it because this is hindering my shark fishing. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
Welcome Rosgood14! Would it be possible to post a picture of your drag stack with all the washers spread out in the order that you have them?
Possible cause: All eared washers godda go down into the groves in the main gear and sit flat against the washers below them.
take a look at the slot that is cut in the side of the main gear. note how it is only cut part way down. with the old thick asbestos drag washers, it didn't matter, but with the newer thin carbon fiber drags, the "slotted" metal washer can bottom out against the base of that "slot" and behave like it was the bottom of the main gear. this effectively takes the drag washers underneath all out of play. check your main gear. you may need a a new more modern gear that was designed for the ht-100 drag stack. and remember, you always replace the main and pinion gears together as a set, never just one or the other.
I don't think that cut is an issue with a 16/0.
Your stack has to be out of order or something is missing.
I do these more often than most.
This is what your stack should look like.
There is only one extra washer on top.
It is a Belleville.
Quote from: Shark Hunter on May 28, 2018, 03:06:11 AM
I don't think that cut is an issue with a 16/0.
Your stack has to be out of order or something is missing.
I do these more often than most.
This is what your stack should look like.
There is only one extra washer on top.
It is a Belleville.
This is how they were in from left to right. The only thing I pulled out of this pic is the extra (old) asbestos washer I put in at the top when I was trouble shooting.
Quote from: alantani on May 28, 2018, 02:36:54 AM
take a look at the slot that is cut in the side of the main gear. note how it is only cut part way down. with the old thick asbestos drag washers, it didn't matter, but with the newer thin carbon fiber drags, the "slotted" metal washer can bottom out against the base of that "slot" and behave like it was the bottom of the main gear. this effectively takes the drag washers underneath all out of play. check your main gear. you may need a a new more modern gear that was designed for the ht-100 drag stack. and remember, you always replace the main and pinion gears together as a set, never just one or the other.
This is my main gear and the slot looks deeper than the one you posted so I think it's not my problem. I also posted a pic of how all the drag washers were put in.
what do you have between the base of the gear sleeve and the gear itself? your drag washers are in the proper order and the slots for the slotted metal washers are cut all the down to the bottom. those are the first two most common causes. you're not going metal to metal between the base of the gear sleeve and the main gear, are you?
also, can you get a scale and measure the drag? not sure about where you are. here they build 7 year olds pretty skinny. most of these kids couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. they might build them pretty big in your neck of the woods so it might not be a very fair comparison. ;D
Quote from: alantani on May 29, 2018, 02:26:22 PM
what do you have between the base of the gear sleeve and the gear itself? your drag washers are in the proper order and the slots for the slotted metal washers are cut all the down to the bottom. those are the first two most common causes. you're not going metal to metal between the base of the gear sleeve and the main gear, are you?
It does have a washer under the main gear. It's not a metal one and I'm not sure what it is made of but it's there. Also the kid wasn't seven he was 75 pounds. How abouts would you like me to test the drag. I believe I have a weight scale hat goes up to 50 or 80lbs
Should there be grease on the bottom of the main gear where that washer is. I cleaned it all off for the pic but figured I would ask to make sure.
I think you might be expecting too much from this old war horse.
About 30 lbs of drag is about right.
The drag washers also need to be greased with Cal's drag grease.
I would use penn blue on all other parts, including under the main gear.
That may be the case I just assumed I would be able to crank it down all the way stop whatever was pulling or break the line. How would I rig up my scale to test the drag.
You can tie it to a solid object and do just a straight pull with only the reel in your hands.
That provided the most accurate reading. If You leave it on the rod, you are at your own risk. ;D
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/darondyer/IMG_2929_zps4id8av3m.jpg)
Quote from: Shark Hunter on May 29, 2018, 05:00:06 PM
I think you might be expecting too much from this old war horse.
About 30 lbs of drag is about right.
The drag washers also need to be greased with Cal's drag grease.
I would use penn blue on all other parts, including under the main gear.
Also what's the difference in the Cals drag grease vs the penn grease that says it's for drag washers as well. Just asking because that's what I put on it.
I have noticed that Penn is putting this on their drag washers now.
I don't approve. Drag Grease is Teflon Based and won't break down under heat. That is what it was made for.
This route is better than nothing I guess.
This is just my opinion.
Quote from: Shark Hunter on May 29, 2018, 05:28:05 PM
You can tie it to a solid object and do just a straight pull with only the reel in your hands.
That provided the most accurate reading. If You leave it on the rod, you are at your own risk. ;D
(http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag93/darondyer/IMG_2929_zps4id8av3m.jpg)
So I should be able to hold at least 30lbs of weight with the reel on a straight pull correct.
Ok so I just did a straight pull test from just the reel not with the rod and I was only able to hold about 21lbs of weight. That is without the old asbestos washer I had added when I was troubleshooting before. The last washer that goes into the stack of drag washers is it a special type. The one I have looks like it has a slight bow to it meaning it's not a flat washer like the rest.
It's the beveled washer(#86). It helps add force to the drag stack when the star is tightened down.
Hmmm, 21lbs. Is pretty light for a 16/0, that's closer to what a 9/0 or even a 6/0 might get. This is gettin interestin. Didja check to see if the drag star is bottoming-out on the side plate, or does it still have clearence, when the star's locked down?
You should get close to 30lb if not more.
I wonder if that Penn Blue Grease on the drags has something to do with it?
You know you can remove the main gear with the drags from this reel without taking the side plate off, right?
You might need a new Belleville on top of the stack. Its cone shape should be facing down, with the Cover on top and then the tension spring and star.
Your stack looks correct from the pictures. Something else is going on.
Quote from: Shark Hunter on May 30, 2018, 02:16:20 AM
You should get close to 30lb if not more.
I wonder if that Penn Blue Grease on the drags has something to do with it?
You know you can remove the main gear with the drags from this reel without taking the side plate off, right?
You might need a new Belleville on top of the stack. Its cone shape should be facing down, with the Cover on top and then the tension spring and star.
Your stack looks correct from the pictures. Something else is going on.
I have been removing just the main gear to get the washers out and as far as the grease I barely put any on them more of a film. The Belleville is at the top with the cone part facing down. The tension spring is the one that fits in the groove on the drag star correct. Could it be worn out to the point of causing my issue.
Flip the last washer (Belleville)and you should get close to 40 lb with the star buttoned all the way.
Sal
Quote from: Alto Mare on May 30, 2018, 02:43:11 AM
Flip the last washer (Belleville)and you should get close to 40 lb with the star buttoned all the way.
Sal
I just went and flipped the Belleville washer (cone down) and it did help a little but I'm still only getting about 26lbs of drag now. Also the drag star is not bottoming out on the side plate but I did notice the tension spring is smashed down all the way to where he star is flat on the cover that goes over the drag washers. Not sure if it's supposed to be when it's tightened all the way up or not.
Try adding another flat uneared metal washer under the Belleville.
I think you are running out of room as the star is cranked down, not giving your full drag potential.
It is hard to tell if your bottoming out with the cover over the drags on the 14 and 16/0.
That Belleville should be completely sticking out on top of your stack before you put the cover on.
I usually never have to add anything when buying a complete 7 stack kit from Scott's.
26lb is still a respectable number. You have to give into account that your scale might be off as well.
I don't know how many Sharks you have caught, but buttoned down with 26 lbs on stand up gear will wear you down.
I'm not saying you should settle, but you are in the ball park.
Quote from: Rosgood14 on May 30, 2018, 03:13:54 AM
Quote from: Alto Mare on May 30, 2018, 02:43:11 AM
Flip the last washer (Belleville)and you should get close to 40 lb with the star buttoned all the way.
Sal
I just went and flipped the Belleville washer (cone down) and it did help a little but I'm still only getting about 26lbs of drag now. Also the drag star is not bottoming out on the side plate but I did notice the tension spring is smashed down all the way to where he star is flat on the cover that goes over the drag washers. Not sure if it's supposed to be when it's tightened all the way up or not.
No, the cone shape should always be facing up. Sorry, I thought you had it in the other way.
On some reels the threads on the star could actually go bad, but I have ever seen this on the larger Senator, only on the smaller.
As Shark Hunter has suggested, You might just need to add another washer. It could be metal, or another carbon fiber at the base.
Sal
Quote from: Shark Hunter on May 30, 2018, 04:40:08 AM
Try adding another flat uneared metal washer under the Belleville.
I think you are running out of room as the star is cranked down, not giving your full drag potential.
It is hard to tell if your bottoming out with the cover over the drags on the 14 and 16/0.
That Belleville should be completely sticking out on top of your stack before you put the cover on.
I usually never have to add anything when buying a complete 7 stack kit from Scott's.
26lb is still a respectable number. You have to give into account that your scale might be off as well.
I don't know how many Sharks you have caught, but buttoned down with 26 lbs on stand up gear will wear you down.
I'm not saying you should settle, but you are in the ball park.
Not sure what 7 stack kit your talking about but I ordered the HT-100s from Scott's and it's a set of 14 that replaced the old set of 10.
No, the cone shape should always be facing up. Sorry, I thought you had it in the other way.
On some reels the threads on the star could actually go bad, but I have ever seen this on the larger Senator, only on the smaller.
As Shark Hunter has suggested, You might just need to add another washer. It could be metal, or another carbon fiber at the base.
Sal
[/quote]
Ok just to clarify is this cone down or cone up. The threads look good and the drag star is definitely tightening down. It's gonna be a few days before I can work on ge reel but I appreciate y'all help and I'll let you know what I figure out next.
In my eyes, that is cone down.
I have had reels that stripped the sleeve. Look very closely at the threads.
I noticed in your pic of your drag stack. You have a handle washer on the inside of the star.
This goes on the other side of the drag cover cap, then your handle.
Not sure if this is an issue, but it doesn't go there.
Quote from: Shark Hunter on May 30, 2018, 05:26:25 PM
In my eyes, that is cone down.
I have had reels that stripped the sleeve. Look very closely at the threads.
I noticed in your pic of your drag stack. You have a handle washer on the inside of the star.
This goes on the other side of the drag cover cap, then your handle.
Not sure if this is an issue, but it doesn't go there.
That washer just got set there when I took it apart. It has been in the right place. And to clarify you stated the cone should be down and Sal I believe said it should be facing up so which way is it. With it down like you stated I got more drag than with it facing up. As far as the drag threads if they were wore down wouldn't the drag star slip instead of getting tight.
On that particular sleeve, It felt just like normal, but then when you went to retrieve, The drag would slip.
I'm not saying this is your issue, but it does happen. It took me a few minutes to figure that one out. It wasn't obvious until I looked closer.
Everyone has their own way of setting up their reel. I install mine as your picture shows, but Honestly, most of my Senators have the insert kit now.
When I have an issue with the drag, I have the luxury of changing Gears, Sleeves and Bridges until I get that perfect fitment.
It is hard telling who has been in the reel before you, and the parts have been changed before.
Quote from: Rosgood14 on May 30, 2018, 12:19:12 PM
No, the cone shape should always be facing up. Sorry, I thought you had it in the other way.
On some reels the threads on the star could actually go bad, but I have ever seen this on the larger Senator, only on the smaller.
As Shark Hunter has suggested, You might just need to add another washer. It could be metal, or another carbon fiber at the base.
Sal
Ok just to clarify is this cone down or cone up. The threads look good and the drag star is definitely tightening down. It's gonna be a few days before I can work on ge reel but I appreciate y'all help and I'll let you know what I figure out next.
[/quote]
As you're showing it on your pic it is the way it should go.
Ok just to update everyone. I ensured that the Belleville washer was cone down and checked threads and everything looked good. I also added another metal washer instead of one of the old asbestos ones that I had originally tried. I ended up getting right at 35lbs of drag and I can still loosen it up just enough to kayak my baits out. So should be good to go. Thanks for all your help and expertise.
glad you got it working!!!!!
Quote from: Rosgood14 on June 02, 2018, 02:55:53 PM
Ok just to update everyone. I ensured that the Belleville washer was cone down and checked threads and everything looked good. I also added another metal washer instead of one of the old asbestos ones that I had originally tried. I ended up getting right at 35lbs of drag and I can still loosen it up just enough to kayak my baits out. So should be good to go. Thanks for all your help and expertise.
When I yak baits out with Daron, he just flips the eccentric to freespool and puts the clicker on. There's no need for the drag to be on to go out that way.
I'll have to try it that way. I always worry about it being too lose and line getting jacked up while I'm baiting it out.
Quote from: Rosgood14 on June 02, 2018, 05:55:41 PM
I'll have to try it that way. I always worry about it being too lose and line getting jacked up while I'm baiting it out.
Unless you're an absolute beast at kayaking, I don't see you moving fast enough to bird nest it. I've never seen a problem, most of the issues we've had was with the kayak end of the line(better known as operator error :-[ ).
Quote from: Rosgood14 on June 02, 2018, 05:55:41 PM
I'll have to try it that way. I always worry about it being too lose and line getting jacked up while I'm baiting it out.
I'd think what you're doing is a good way to avoid the line jacking up, might want to just keep on "keeping on". I've been following this thread, and I had a hunch all you needed was a bit more height in the stack. Good work sorting it out, and good luck with the fishing! 8)
Glad it's sorted out. Free spool and the clicker is the ticket. With those high drag numbers be good to set the drag with a scale and leave it.
Glad the suggestion worked.
When we Kayak baits out, Robin hears the clicker as I push him off. I then turn the clicker off and thumb the spool.
I turn it back on, when the bait is set. I always have a man on the reel and a man in the Kayak.
Someone can easily walk away with your stuff when you get out there.
All our Senators are stainless double dogged and have a stainless sleeve.
Quote from: Shark Hunter on June 02, 2018, 08:09:30 PM
Glad the suggestion worked.
When we Kayak baits out, Robin hears the clicker as I push him off. I then turn the clicker off and thumb the spool.
I turn it back on, when the bait is set. I always have a man on the reel and a man in the Kayak.
Someone can easily walk away with your stuff when you get out there.
All our Senators are stainless double dogged and have a stainless sleeve.
Agreed that people will run off with your stuff quick and I usually do have a friend or my wife on shore. What do you mean all your senators are stainless double dogged with a stainless sleeve.
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=15476.0
Quote from: Rosgood14 on June 02, 2018, 08:51:28 PM
Quote from: Shark Hunter on June 02, 2018, 08:09:30 PM
Glad the suggestion worked.
When we Kayak baits out, Robin hears the clicker as I push him off. I then turn the clicker off and thumb the spool.
I turn it back on, when the bait is set. I always have a man on the reel and a man in the Kayak.
Someone can easily walk away with your stuff when you get out there.
All our Senators are stainless double dogged and have a stainless sleeve.
Agreed that people will run off with your stuff quick and I usually do have a friend or my wife on shore. What do you mean all your senators are stainless double dogged with a stainless sleeve.
Now you are venturing into Daron and Sal's territory. Bring your check book ;D
Quote from: Shark Hunter on June 02, 2018, 09:01:19 PM
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=15476.0
So pretty sure I already have the SS posts and how does that sleeve in he drag work exactly. Does that sleeve come with another set of drag washer cut to fit inside it or how exactly. Trying to get an idea of how it all works.
The reels handle attaches to the end of the gear sleeve. By using stainless steel its much harder or impossible for the handle to come loose and round off the end of the sleeve.
If you use a SS gear sleeve you should use SS anti reverse dogs.
If you go through Daron's link he posted you can see all the aftermarket parts he uses.
Quote from: Rosgood14 on June 02, 2018, 10:50:18 PM
Quote from: Shark Hunter on June 02, 2018, 09:01:19 PM
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=15476.0
So pretty sure I already have the SS posts and how does that sleeve in he drag work exactly. Does that sleeve come with another set of drag washer cut to fit inside it or how exactly. Trying to get an idea of how it all works.
Here's an example of some steel vs brass on the sleeve and dogs, and the rounded off gear sleeve that Keith was referring to.
The stainless sleeve upgrade is a must for land based Shark Fisherman.
You don't have to do all the other upgrades.
This is the weak link.
I have fixed many, none of my own, because I do it first.
There are different variables from shore. Swift Currents, sandbars and fish that can weigh a couple hundred pounds will torture that sleeve.